I don't want to hear anything about Zach's stats

[KOA]

It's hard to make an argument when people are pulling stats from ONE game. The Knicks lost to Miami, Phoenix, and Sacramento without Zach in the rotation. I don't see why a close game (in which they lost) against a Ginobli-less Spurs (who lost to other bad teams such as Sacramento and Memphis) should justify keeping Curry over Zach.

[moocow007]

It's hard to make an argument when people are pulling stats from ONE game. The Knicks lost to Miami, Phoenix, and Sacramento without Zach in the rotation. I don't see why a close game (in which they lost) against a Ginobli-less Spurs (who lost to other bad teams such as Sacramento and Memphis) should justify keeping Curry over Zach.

Dude...people are saying that the Knicks appeared to play better as a team with Curry.

[KOA]

Dude...people are saying that the Knicks appeared to play better as a team with Curry.

And I am saying where is the proof??? The ONE game last night against the Ginobli-less spurs?

EDIT: No one on this board has EVER blamed losses on Eddy Curry. They say that he sucks some games, but he never takes the blame for a loss. He is the exact same age as Zach, so you can't use the age or inexperience excuse. He is supposed to be the "franchise" player of this team, but he never is taking the blame when it comes to the team's play. Z-Bo is always the scapegoat even though there are MANY other problems on this team which include Curry's inconsistencies.

[moocow007]

-= original quote snipped =-



And I am saying where is the proof??? The ONE game last night against the Ginobli-less spurs?

That ONE game was almost night and day compared to how they've been playing all season so yeah, it's hard to discount. That ONE game last night was one of the best game they've played this season even though they lost.

[chitownsports4ever]

-= original quote snipped =-



And I am saying where is the proof??? The ONE game last night against the Ginobli-less spurs?

Actually they played well in both the Sac game AND the Heat game looked more like a cohesive unit and thats mainly because they know each other and THE PLAYS.

Ive said this before but the problem isnt Zach per say but that isiah gave him too big of a role on the team too fast .The guy still doesnt know the plays yet missed part of training camp because of grandma and then more time to start the season.Zach shouldve been coming off the bench from the start until the team adjusted to his game and you had a chance to see how he and Eddy would respond in limited minutes on the floor together.

[king_k4life]

[quote="mugzi"][/quote]


All that cause I asked how is he a proven racist

Remove my penis from the back of your throat

[ctorres]

I still don't get how it's so hard to keep Zach and Curry from playing alongside each other for too long. You could split up the minutes like this:

PF: Randolph - 12 / Lee and Rose - 36
C: Curry - 30 / Randolph - 18

Let Randolph and Curry play together for the first 6 minutes of each half and then you bench one of them. The rest of the game, they take turns playing alongside Lee (or Rose if Lee gets too tired). Both Randolph and Curry can play well alongside Lee, and Rose is smart enough to know what to do next to each of them as well.

[ilovenewyork]

-= original quote snipped =-



at you thinking Thomas is racist when Lee was eating up Frye's minutes last year. We shall see the minute break down after the trade deadline. Lee is going to stay in NY and get paid.

uhh...channing frye wasn't black, he's whiter than chris dudley

[slamvangundy]

Zach Randolph and the curse of the 20-10:
Why Zach's impressive fantasy lines don't help us win

by Slam Van Gundy

Zach has a special knack for rebounding. He's amazing at it. He could be dennis rodman-esque. Too bad the immense benefits he brings to the team by bringing down those boards is outweighed by the fact he is an extremely inneficient shooter, who shoots at a ridiculous volume and turns it over more than is called for.

Zach's defense is terrible, but I don't think there is anything he can do about it. Other than getting back every time the team is on D.

If Zach recognized that shooting is one of the biggest limitations in his game, and actually made use of his excellent passing skills to find cutters to the basket, or get the ball to Crawford and Marbury (neither of whom is a great guard mind you, but who are more efficient than Zach), he could be a cornerstone of this franchise and bring us 10-15 wins per season alone unlike Channing Frye who brought us, IDK, 1 win?

Zach has a certain craftiness and awareness that reminds me of players like Bird and Barkley, two players who lacked the athleticism of a Kevin Garnett or a Hakeem Owajuwon, or the dieselness of a Shaq or Oakley, but who still managed to log 10 boards per game over the course of hall of fame careers. To put those kind of numbers up for a whole career (which Zach could conceivably do), can make you a valuable chip on a championship caliber team (which is why Lee NEEDS more playing time, btw). Despite his skill and hustle, Zach's attitude is genuinely terrible and it erodes most of his value as a player. I've never seen a player who had so much ability to help his team, TRIED HARD and HUSTLED! and still was useless. It's mind boggling. It is absolutely mind-boggling. All the benefits he brings us by being a stud rebounder are ERASED by the number of shots he wastes each game and the turnovers. If a very inneficient player is taking a quarter of your teams shots, you are going to have to have a Nash/Amare/Howard on your team, putting up lots of high effeciency shots just to even things out. By contrast, our highest efficiency scorers are Stephon Marbury, David Lee and Eddy Curry...yikes!

Zach might put up 20-10 but even on paper, his production is merely average. Let's say on average, a middle of the road power foward pulls down 7.5 rebounds in 35 minutes and turns it over one and a half times. scoring 15 points per game on 11 shots. Now let's say Zach has an above average night and pulls down 12 boards in 35 minutes but he also turns it over 3 times. Considering what we know so far, that is great! Zach got three more possesions for his team than that average powerfoward.

But let's turn to the scoring side of things for a second. Most teams get higher efficiency scoring from their big men than their guards and the typical powerfoward scores about 15 points on 11 attempts. A typical game for Zach is 20 points on 19 shots. Zach gets 3 more possesions for his club than the average powerfoward, and it takes him 8 extra shots to score an 5 extra points .

To put this in persepective, if you gave Mardy freaking Collins, a 25 percent three point shooter, 8 attempts per game, even he could score 5 points. If you put the ball in Renaldo Balkman hands 8 times per game, and said, Renaldo, we know you can't shoot, but drive to the hoop and try to dunk it, make a lay up or get fouled, Renaldo could score 5 points.

Just to sum it up. Through rebounding and turnovers Zach gets his team 3 extra possesions compared with a middle of the road power forward. He also takes 8 more shots. So overall the rest of the players on the team get 5 fewer shots than they all would all get if they were matched with say, Chris Wilcox. They are compensated with 5 extra points. Just based on stats alone, it is not crystal clear that Zach is offering us a positive tradeoff.

If we take into account Randolph's defense and the effect his style of play has on the rest of the team, I think he starts to look quite below average.

There's defense. Throw in factors that Zach can't control that make him a bad defender (no lateral quickness whatsoever, unable to block a shot, less athletic than Jerome james). Now throw in the factors that Zach can control that make him a bad defender (not getting back on defense several times per game because he is throwing a tantrum, only putting effort in when he feels like it, leaving his team mates to get burned and look like idiots on pick and roll defense)----already, even on a 20-12 night, Zach might be giving you less than the average powerfoward.

Now, think about this. In basketball, ball movement creates better shot opportunities for everyone. But Zach never moves the ball. Meanwhile, none of his teammates want to give it up to him, because they know they'll never get it back. The smart ones know Zach is going to hurt the teams ability to win if he gets his hands on the ball by taking bad shots. The dumb ones say 'hey, i want my shots too!'. So if they look to pass the ball around, they're only looking at three other guys to pass to. That makes an offense more predictable. That lets other teams defenses predict what we are going to do better and force more turnovers.

Zach has a style of play that makes an entire offensive system shut down. Think what guys like KG, Tim Duncan, Chris Paul and Jason Kidd do to get the offense flowing. How many isolation plays do you see on their teams? Meanwhile Zach Randolph has the style of game play that could shut down even the Pheonix Sun's offense. He is the anti-steve nash.

Left to our own devices, the Knicks already have issues playing team ball. Jamal Crawford lives off of isolation play because despite one of the best crossovers in the game, and a very good shooting touch, my mom has more basketball smarts than he does and I don't mean that as compliment to my mom. One can only imagine what went through Crawford's head that one month he finally listened to Larry Brown, applied his talents sensibly and won player of the month: "YOU MEAN I SHOULD USE MY GOD GIVEN TALENT AND TAKE IT TO THE HOLE INSTEAD OF ONLY TAKING OFF BALANCE MID RANGE JUMP SHOTS?!? THAT'S HOW TO BE A SHOOTING GUARD?!? NOW I GET IT!!!"

Then there is Eddy Curry, who is a vegetable, so it's not like he has an attitude that prevents him from playing team ball. He just lacks basketball awareness (probably has something to do with him being a carrot). He has excellent body control and athleticism which is why he can score from the low post, but he doesn't know what's going on around him. Add him to the list of knicks players who have issues playing the type of team oriented basketball played by most professional NBA teams. When does Antoine Walker become a free agent again?

Throw Zach Randolph in the mix and you get the 2007-8 New York Knicks. More hopeless than the Larry Brown Knicks, we aren't even advanced enough to base our offense on isolation plays, because we don't even space ourselves out right for that to happen. We play an ADD offense that resembles how I would play in a pickup game if I truly hated my team (shoot without conscience, see if I can make fun circus shots). Meanwhile, with everyone being so selfish on offense (especially Zach and Jamal), nobody has the goodwill or sense of team to bother trying on defense. "Screw these guys" everyone seems to be thinking, "why am I going to bust my ass back on defense when this jack@ss is bricking shots and giving the other team easy fast break buckets. Hopefully Isiah will cut me and I can just keep my free money".

Isiah doesn't punish players who play into this vicious cycle, and the well intentioned players, who act like responsible human beings, never get burn. They are never rewarded with more playing time when they produce. If I am David Lee, Nate Robinson, Renaldo Balkman or Mardy Collins, how do I motivate myself to bust my ass, when my lazy teammates have already thrown the game away? After promising Rookie and Sophmore seasons, all four are getting less playing time than they got last year.

One more point. Watch what happened last year when 'energy guys' like Jared Jeffries, Nate Robinson, Renaldo Balkman, Mardy Collins and David Lee would get burn at the same time. Even though only one of those players can buy a bucket when it comes to scoring in one-on-one situations, each of those players can get at least ten points. How? They score by setting picks, running screens, passing, passing and making the extra pass. Instead of going 1 on 3 like Zach Randolph, they find ways to get easy buckets. Lee and Balkman both are great passers for forwards, and get each other cutting to the basket. Robinson and Collins drive to the hoop and get lay ups and Robinson also takes threes when he is open and shoots a great percentage. Jeffries can hit those 12 footers if he gets a good look as well as put backs. Good defensive plays cause forced turnovers and more missed shots leading to easy fast break scoring opportunities. Also, Lee and Balkman given starters minutes, are pretty much guaranteed double doubles just from the points they score on put backs. If those 5 players put up 60 points on 40 shots, the team is in decent position to win. If Curry, Marbury and Crawford can score another 45 points or so off the 40 shot attempts or so the knicks have left, you get a plus %500 team. If in the long run you replace Curry, Marbury and Crawford by drafting one or two young stars and clearing enough cap room to sign one more through free agency, you get a team that can contend among the league's elite.

Randolph's style of gameplay renders what could be an effective supporting cast as useful as a wet sock. The above scenario I described in which teammates overcome limitations on talent, by passing to each other, being patient and waiting for easy baskets, is not possible with Randolph on board because he kills the offense as well as any sense of team. But I won't begrudge him. By bringing us from a .500 team to a .250 team during a year in which we actually have our own draft pick, he is bringing us tantalizingly closer to Derrick Rose with every 20-10 game he plays. Years from now, after we look back on championships we won in the post Isiah Thomas era, we will look back and say it all started with a chubby little fart face who nobody believed in...but himself. The 'experts' and the know-it-alls said there was no way such a player could cause the Knicks to one day win a championship. I guess nobody told them about "the miracle from portland".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tank for Rose.

[madvillian]

It's amazing how many misfit and one way players IT has assembled here.

You really don't even need stats to see the picture with Z-BO because watching the games it's so obvious he's a great rebounder but a horrible defender and black hole at the same time.

You're right, if he just knew his role he could easily have a rodman like impact.

[KnicksGadfly]

I liked this a lot, but damn that must have taken a lot of work.

[RatherUnique24]

I will not get into the racial nonsense in this thread but I will talk about the starting lineups. Curry is causing the problem because of his ineffectiveness compared to Zach. This whole team is screwup offensively and defensively. We can not pick and choose the team lineup because its all bad. Stop nitpicking because you all will have to see that each lineup IT puts out on the court will be bad.


There is no perfect lineup that current Knicks roster has that can play decent basketball.

[chitownsports4ever]

Left to our own devices, the Knicks already have issues playing team ball. Jamal Crawford lives off of isolation play because despite one of the best crossovers in the game, and a very good shooting touch, my mom has more basketball smarts than he does and I don't mean that as compliment to my mom. One can only imagine what went through Crawford's head that one month he finally listened to Larry Brown, applied his talents sensibly and won player of the month: "YOU MEAN I SHOULD USE MY GOD GIVEN TALENT AND TAKE IT TO THE HOLE INSTEAD OF ONLY TAKING OFF BALANCE MID RANGE JUMP SHOTS?!? THAT'S HOW TO BE A SHOOTING GUARD?!? NOW I GET IT!!!"

You make some good points then always go into nonsense .

What games have you been watching ? hes been going to the basket but the knicks offense which has 2 post players already fighting for position downlow gives u no driving lanes unless its off of isolation and the paint is cleared. When you find him standing on the perimeter its because the ball is going inside and the only shots zach and Curry produce for others are three point attempts.

Watch some basketball .

Did you see when Rafer and brooks went down the lane for those layups where Yao was ?

To try and say Crawford hasnt been playing team ball is BS and Brown called a play every possession EVERY possession. Crawfords much better in a controlled environment but the problem is the team just does not execute well. Case in point last night Isiah called a play where Crawford is supposed to come around several screens for a shot but Malik gets the ball tipped out of his hands and the opponent is going the other way. Look at how many times the knicks lost the ball while making an offensive move last night even the rockets announcer was questioning that.

Crawfords game from Brown has carried over thats why Isiah plays him so much but isiah also knows that the players like Curry and marbury couldnt handle it so he doesnt stress the small things like Brown did and the entire team suffers .Its no surprise that 3 years later Jamal and lee are still the most important keys to a victory for the knicks .

Meanwhile, with everyone being so selfish on offense (especially Zach and Jamal), nobody has the goodwill or sense of team to bother trying on defense. "Screw these guys" everyone seems to be thinking, "why am I going to bust my ass back on defense when this jack@ss is bricking shots and giving the other team easy fast break buckets. Hopefully Isiah will cut me and I can just keep my free money".

How you even compare Zach and Crawford I dont even know ?

If you think the team reacts the same way to jamal shooting as it does to Zach then you havent been watching the game at all.

[slamvangundy]

Left to our own devices, the Knicks already have issues playing team ball. Jamal Crawford lives off of isolation play because despite one of the best crossovers in the game, and a very good shooting touch, my mom has more basketball smarts than he does and I don't mean that as compliment to my mom. One can only imagine what went through Crawford's head that one month he finally listened to Larry Brown, applied his talents sensibly and won player of the month: "YOU MEAN I SHOULD USE MY GOD GIVEN TALENT AND TAKE IT TO THE HOLE INSTEAD OF ONLY TAKING OFF BALANCE MID RANGE JUMP SHOTS?!? THAT'S HOW TO BE A SHOOTING GUARD?!? NOW I GET IT!!!"

You make some good points then always go into nonsense .

What games have you been watching ? hes been going to the basket but the knicks offense which has 2 post players already fighting for position downlow gives u no driving lanes unless its off of isolation and the paint is cleared. When you find him standing on the perimeter its because the ball is going inside and the only shots zach and Curry produce for others are three point attempts.

Watch some basketball .

Did you see when Rafer and brooks went down the lane for those layups where Yao was ?

To try and say Crawford hasnt been playing team ball is BS and Brown called a play every possession EVERY possession. Crawfords much better in a controlled environment but the problem is the team just does not execute well. Case in point last night Isiah called a play where Crawford is supposed to come around several screens for a shot but Malik gets the ball tipped out of his hands and the opponent is going the other way. Look at how many times the knicks lost the ball while making an offensive move last night even the rockets announcer was questioning that.

Crawfords game from Brown has carried over thats why Isiah plays him so much but isiah also knows that the players like Curry and marbury couldnt handle it so he doesnt stress the small things like Brown did and the entire team suffers .Its no surprise that 3 years later Jamal and lee are still the most important keys to a victory for the knicks .

Meanwhile, with everyone being so selfish on offense (especially Zach and Jamal), nobody has the goodwill or sense of team to bother trying on defense. "Screw these guys" everyone seems to be thinking, "why am I going to bust my ass back on defense when this jack@ss is bricking shots and giving the other team easy fast break buckets. Hopefully Isiah will cut me and I can just keep my free money".

How you even compare Zach and Crawford I dont even know ?

If you think the team reacts the same way to jamal shooting as it does to Zach then you havent been watching the game at all.

Jamal has regressed in this system. He has the talent, and willingness to be coached, so I am not going to give up on him but he is clearly not producing.

How can I compare him to Zach?
Well their shooting stats are virtually identical. That's not the whole story of course, and Zach is a cancer whereas Jamal needs a coach to keep him inline, but these numbers are alarming.

Zach scores 1.16 points per shot on .453% shooting.
Jamal scores 1.13 points per shot on .402 shooting. (only players who are shooting a lower percent are Malik Rose, Jared Jeffries, Mardy Collins and Q Rich)
Zach takes 15.6 shots per game. Jamal takes 16.1
Zach makes 7.1 shots pre game Jamal makes 6.5
Zach is shooting threes at .316 Jamal is shooting threes at .313


Look Jamal can turnaround, and this system makes it hard for any player to do their thing. But right now, the fact is that none of the starting lineup have very good shot selection. Eddy has trouble passing out of double teams. There isn't a single good shot for Q Rich to take on the court because he can't even make a lay up. Steph is allright as a pointguard, but by no means a guy who can orchestrate an offense, Jamal is gifted, has all his physical talent, but has trouble with his decision making. Zach is clearly the cancer of the bunch.

Personally, I think Jamal, despite being the guy I am most frusturated with, should be one of the seven or so guys in a rotation that will prepare us for the future.

future:

Nate
Jamal
Chandler
Balkman
Lee
Jeffries

veterans:
malik
marbury (limited minutes)

if they can prove themselves:
Curry
Collins
Randolph Morris

[StutterStep]

YO!! This was an EXCELLENT and well-thought out analysis. Though I disagree on the base premise, I give you KUDOS!

Good job, my man!!

If a very inneficient player is taking a quarter of your teams shots, you are going to have to have a Nash/Amare/Howard on your team, putting up lots of high effeciency shots just to even things out. By contrast, our highest efficiency scorers are Stephon Marbury, David Lee and Eddy Curry...yikes!

This is not the problem. The other 75% of the shots are going to JC, QRich and Curry. That is a big part of the problem, as those guys do not defend or rebound. So it is a TEAM problem. NOT a 20/10 problem!

The system (or lack of) is a part of the problem, which you later tackled -- the lack of the coach's vision and understanding of how to incorporate his defensive-minded, hustle players into the game.

We get down early because the starting lineup is FUGAZY not because of ZACH, but because of QRich, and the fact the JC and Steph should not start together.

This is not my preferred lineup because mine would be BENCHING CURRY in favor of starting LEE. Since this is not going to happen, I still think we would see a dramatically different result if Isiah had begun the year or stick with this lineup, and rotation:

STARTERS: JC/FJones/Jeffries/Zach/Eddy with Jeffries getting the tougher of either the SF or PF defensive assignment.


BENCH: Steph/Nate/Balkman/Lee


Use QRich and the other young players in ideal situations or emergencies.

Never play Malik Rose!

[manute_bol112]

That was an amazing article. COmpletely correct

[StutterStep]

-= original quote snipped =-



you cant assume that if Zach wasnt in the game that the knicks wouldnt rebound .They rebounded just fine the previous game .

At his age you would expect to see Zachs game start to mature but he still plays with the reckless abandon of a rookie to the detriment of the team.

At times you get on my GAT DAMN NERVES! How can you make that statement about ZACH while always defending JAMAL of those same charges?

[StutterStep]

-= original quote snipped =-



The Knicks as a team had more rebounds last night WITHOUT Randolph than they did tonight WITH Randolph. The Knicks also held the Spurs to 40% from the field and turned the ball over 16 times WITHOUT Randolph compared to "holding" the Rockets to 53% from the field and turning the ball over 18 times WITH Randolph (who managed 6 TO's himself while shooting only 37% from the field).

I'm sorry man... but this ZACH bashing is reaching a level that makes me want to *** someone!

How about if Jamal and Curry played a better offensive game then tempo wouldn't have been so fast and we could have recovered on defense better?

How about if Steph/Nate didn't let Aaron Brooks light them up and blow 'em out like candles?

Scola did a little something on offense, but last night the difference was the perimeter and guard play: Alston/Brook/Head outdueled Steph/JC/Nate.... At least Nate was balling, the other two guards were pathetic.

[chitownsports4ever]

Jamal has regressed in this system. He has the talent, and willingness to be coached, so I am not going to give up on him but he is clearly not producing.

How can I compare him to Zach?
Well their shooting stats are virtually identical. That's not the whole story of course, and Zach is a cancer whereas Jamal needs a coach to keep him inline, but these numbers are alarming.

Zach scores 1.16 points per shot on .453% shooting.
Jamal scores 1.13 points per shot on .402 shooting. (only players who are shooting a lower percent are Malik Rose, Jared Jeffries, Mardy Collins and Q Rich)
Zach takes 15.6 shots per game. Jamal takes 16.1
Zach makes 7.1 shots pre game Jamal makes 6.5
Zach is shooting threes at .316 Jamal is shooting threes at .313


Look Jamal can turnaround, and this system makes it hard for any player to do their thing. But right now, the fact is that none of the starting lineup have very good shot selection. Eddy has trouble passing out of double teams. There isn't a single good shot for Q Rich to take on the court because he can't even make a lay up. Steph is allright as a pointguard, but by no means a guy who can orchestrate an offense, Jamal is gifted, has all his physical talent, but has trouble with his decision making. Zach is clearly the cancer of the bunch.

Personally, I think Jamal, despite being the guy I am most frusturated with, should be one of the seven or so guys in a rotation that will prepare us for the future.

future:

Nate
Jamal
Chandler
Balkman
Lee
Jeffries

veterans:
malik
marbury (limited minutes)

if they can prove themselves:
Curry
Collins
Randolph Morris

Crawford has not regressed in fact hes better now than he was under brown but the rest of the team is playing worse then they did under brown.

Stat comparisons are meaningless in this case because Crawford and Zach have a huge disparity in how they each impact the team. If jamal goes for 20+ pts the knicks are not hoping for miracles to win they are in POSITION to win if Zach does the same its normally at the sacrifice of all ball moving

Crawford will follow whatever gameplan is put in place and is usually called upon to force the issue when its not working.

Crawford, playing with a sprained shoulder that was covered in taped padding, said he felt a little pain but was quiet because of the game plan. "We went in a different direction," Crawford said. "We went inside."

Crawford is past the stage where he needs a coach to keep him in line .He needs a coach to keep the the other players inline and focused on executing the plays .Its no coincidence that 3 years later isiah is trotting out Crawford,lee,Nate,Malik,and any other bench guy to get back into games with defense and execution.


Crawford so far this year has been average at sg deferring to Curry and Zach early and often and they have not delivered two games in a row since the first week of the season. When the so called focal points of the offense are doing that Isiah has no choice but to allow Crawford to try and generate points.

Crawford this year has been above average at sg but whats been overlooked was his play at pg where he was absolutely dominant with a per of 19+ while his opponent had a per of under 10.

hes still not the answer to the knicks problems and can improve in all facets even more but right now he is so much more of a mature player than Randolph that you cant compare them with stats .

[chitownsports4ever]

-= original quote snipped =-



At times you get on my GAT DAMN NERVES! How can you make that statement about ZACH while always defending JAMAL of those same charges?

the reason I can say that is because Crawford has earned his teams respect .

For all his flaws the team believes that Crawford can get hot at any time help the knicks win. The impact of these two on this current team is so vastly different.

I love how youre blaming jamal for not showing up .He was 4-8 you say playa better offensive game ? Zach took the most shots and had the most turnovers and most of them came on him overdribbling and not passing.

So Crawford gets blamed if he takes a lot of shots

and now he is getting blamed for not taking enough shots