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All Things POLITICS 3.0

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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#201 » by BKlutch » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:16 pm

Greenie wrote:
BKlutch wrote:
Greenie wrote:Yes.

No.

What don't you understand about leave me alone? I'm reporting every time you quote me. Put me on your ignore list and leave me the hell alone! Clyde got the message when will you? We will never agree on any damn thing and quite frankly I don't like you. Leave me alone. I've asked you a million time privately and you won't stop so now I will do so in here. Leave me alone.

I understand that it's impolite to attack others, but it's fine to discuss ideas.

What you posted doesn't look so good. I'm not seeking out you to reply to, but when you're a part of the conversation thread, I'd like to think I can reply the same as anybody else on this board.

Can this de-escalate?

To make it clear, I'd like to stand up once again for NEVER changing Article V of the US Constitution. This is the article that describes the process for amending the Constitution itself. My comment was in support of the comment of Knicks_Fan2 about keeping this article.
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#202 » by Oscirus » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:24 pm

FirePjax wrote:
JohnStarksTheDunk wrote:
FirePjax wrote:

I think you're parsing the term lame duck. The fact of the matter is obama is on way out and theres no mandate for congress to vote on whomever he nominates in any sort of timely fashion. And 8 months before the election is election season. Obama has gotten most of the major legislation he wannted as president passed, saying that congress has obstructed his entire agenda is simply a false narrative.


I wasn't intending to make a larger point about his entire agenda being obstructed. I was merely stating that on this issue, the "lame duck" and "voters should have a say" arguments are just excuses, and poor ones at that. There's no point in having a 4-year term if the final year of that term somehow doesn't count. By a similar rationale, Obama was a lame duck as soon as he was re-elected, since he can't run for a third term. The man was chosen, by voters, to be our president and carry out the duties of office. Among those duties is nominating justices when there is a vacancy and there is no quota on the number of appointments he is allowed to make. If all justices die in some freak accident, it's his job to make 9 nominations. If no vacancies are open during his term, he makes none.

Again, these are just excuses for what you yourself hinted at in your post -- they wanted to wait. We know why they wanted to wait, and it has nothing to do with whether or not Obama has the right to nominate anyone. They were hoping that a Republican would win in November and then be able to choose a conservative judge. If Obama withdraws Garland's nomination and Hillary wins, they are going to wish they had voted on Garland.


I didn't hint at the republicans wanting to wait, I acknowledged it. Sure Obama has the right to nominate someone, but the senate doesnt have to vote on his nomination in any sort of timely fashion. There was no dereliction of duty. If you look at from a purely political standpoint, the situation wasn't ideal for the republicans. If they would have confirmed another Obama appointee to the court it would have been viewed by their constituents as capitulation to Obama's agenda yet again. And it is of course its an election year.

So it's ok for peole to screw with the SC as long as their ideologies fit yours?
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#203 » by DaKnicksAreBack » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:44 pm

Oscirus wrote:
FirePjax wrote:
JohnStarksTheDunk wrote:
I wasn't intending to make a larger point about his entire agenda being obstructed. I was merely stating that on this issue, the "lame duck" and "voters should have a say" arguments are just excuses, and poor ones at that. There's no point in having a 4-year term if the final year of that term somehow doesn't count. By a similar rationale, Obama was a lame duck as soon as he was re-elected, since he can't run for a third term. The man was chosen, by voters, to be our president and carry out the duties of office. Among those duties is nominating justices when there is a vacancy and there is no quota on the number of appointments he is allowed to make. If all justices die in some freak accident, it's his job to make 9 nominations. If no vacancies are open during his term, he makes none.

Again, these are just excuses for what you yourself hinted at in your post -- they wanted to wait. We know why they wanted to wait, and it has nothing to do with whether or not Obama has the right to nominate anyone. They were hoping that a Republican would win in November and then be able to choose a conservative judge. If Obama withdraws Garland's nomination and Hillary wins, they are going to wish they had voted on Garland.


I didn't hint at the republicans wanting to wait, I acknowledged it. Sure Obama has the right to nominate someone, but the senate doesnt have to vote on his nomination in any sort of timely fashion. There was no dereliction of duty. If you look at from a purely political standpoint, the situation wasn't ideal for the republicans. If they would have confirmed another Obama appointee to the court it would have been viewed by their constituents as capitulation to Obama's agenda yet again. And it is of course its an election year.

So it's ok for peole to screw with the SC as long as their ideologies fit yours?


How did you get to that from what I wrote?
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#204 » by CJackson » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:46 pm

Knicks_Fan2 wrote:I am sorry but the entire purpose of Article V and the Bill of Rights of the Constitution is to protect the minority from the majority. Amending the Constitution such that the Bill of Rights is subject to majority change would be a catastrophe and antithetical to principal provisions of that document. Would you really want Equal Protection, Freedom of Speech etc. to be subject to the will of a simple majority?


:thumbsup: Keep educating
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#205 » by Oscirus » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:51 pm

FirePjax wrote:
Oscirus wrote:
FirePjax wrote:
I didn't hint at the republicans wanting to wait, I acknowledged it. Sure Obama has the right to nominate someone, but the senate doesnt have to vote on his nomination in any sort of timely fashion. There was no dereliction of duty. If you look at from a purely political standpoint, the situation wasn't ideal for the republicans. If they would have confirmed another Obama appointee to the court it would have been viewed by their constituents as capitulation to Obama's agenda yet again. And it is of course its an election year.

So it's ok for peole to screw with the SC as long as their ideologies fit yours?


How did you get to that from what I wrote?

In previous posts, you've basically complained about presidents screwing over the supreme court by trying to force their ideologies upon it through their picks, yet, you defend the republican Congress and Senate for trying to force their ideologies on the court through stalling tactics in the post I quoted.
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#206 » by Greenie » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:59 pm

Knicks_Fan2 wrote:I am sorry but the entire purpose of Article V and the Bill of Rights of the Constitution is to protect the minority from the majority. Amending the Constitution such that the Bill of Rights is subject to majority change would be a catastrophe and antithetical to principal provisions of that document. Would you really want Equal Protection, Freedom of Speech etc. to be subject to the will of a simple majority?

Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. No. I also don't want it left up to 9 people. This is why we have what's called a balance of power. We run a check and balance system. Each branch needs to do it's job. The SC's job is not to make law. It's to uphold what has already gone through congress and passed. That's too much power in so few hands. And since we understand they are all being appointed by ideology instead of pure knowledge of the constitution we have a problem. What you will end up having is an unbalanced system leaning heavily in favor of one group of people while giving nothing to the other. It's not right leaning either way.
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#207 » by Greenie » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:03 am

Oscirus wrote:
FirePjax wrote:
JohnStarksTheDunk wrote:
I wasn't intending to make a larger point about his entire agenda being obstructed. I was merely stating that on this issue, the "lame duck" and "voters should have a say" arguments are just excuses, and poor ones at that. There's no point in having a 4-year term if the final year of that term somehow doesn't count. By a similar rationale, Obama was a lame duck as soon as he was re-elected, since he can't run for a third term. The man was chosen, by voters, to be our president and carry out the duties of office. Among those duties is nominating justices when there is a vacancy and there is no quota on the number of appointments he is allowed to make. If all justices die in some freak accident, it's his job to make 9 nominations. If no vacancies are open during his term, he makes none.

Again, these are just excuses for what you yourself hinted at in your post -- they wanted to wait. We know why they wanted to wait, and it has nothing to do with whether or not Obama has the right to nominate anyone. They were hoping that a Republican would win in November and then be able to choose a conservative judge. If Obama withdraws Garland's nomination and Hillary wins, they are going to wish they had voted on Garland.


I didn't hint at the republicans wanting to wait, I acknowledged it. Sure Obama has the right to nominate someone, but the senate doesnt have to vote on his nomination in any sort of timely fashion. There was no dereliction of duty. If you look at from a purely political standpoint, the situation wasn't ideal for the republicans. If they would have confirmed another Obama appointee to the court it would have been viewed by their constituents as capitulation to Obama's agenda yet again. And it is of course its an election year.

So it's ok for peole to screw with the SC as long as their ideologies fit yours?

Is it OK for it to be screwed with to fit yours?
This goes both ways.
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#208 » by NoLayupRule » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:04 am

Greenie wrote:
BKlutch wrote:
Greenie wrote:Yes.

No.

What don't you understand about leave me alone? I'm reporting every time you quote me. Put me on your ignore list and leave me the hell alone! Clyde got the message when will you? We will never agree on any damn thing and quite frankly I don't like you. Leave me alone. I've asked you a million time privately and you won't stop so now I will do so in here. Leave me alone.

come on guys

grow up already

if she asked you to stop just stop. don't be a brat, don't be a bully

and Greenie - reporting quotes is an abuse of the reporting function
you also have the ability to walk away and not turn it into a bigger deal
asking someone to stop harassing you by quoting you is kinda asking yourself to stop reading those quotes and caring

and again Greenie, if you make a post you have to accept that people might actually respond to it

this seems like crying in a sandbox because two kids want the same toy to me

I expect more
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#209 » by Greenie » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:06 am

Ideology needs to be handled in congress. It has no place in the judicial branch. Justice is blind and balanced.
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#210 » by Oscirus » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:06 am

Greenie wrote:
Oscirus wrote:
FirePjax wrote:
I didn't hint at the republicans wanting to wait, I acknowledged it. Sure Obama has the right to nominate someone, but the senate doesnt have to vote on his nomination in any sort of timely fashion. There was no dereliction of duty. If you look at from a purely political standpoint, the situation wasn't ideal for the republicans. If they would have confirmed another Obama appointee to the court it would have been viewed by their constituents as capitulation to Obama's agenda yet again. And it is of course its an election year.

So it's ok for peole to screw with the SC as long as their ideologies fit yours?

Is it OK for it to be screwed with to fit yours?
This goes both ways.


With stalling tactics? No it's not. I fully support the president's right to pick a judge based on his/her ideologies.
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#211 » by DaKnicksAreBack » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:10 am

Oscirus wrote:
FirePjax wrote:
Oscirus wrote:So it's ok for peole to screw with the SC as long as their ideologies fit yours?


How did you get to that from what I wrote?

In previous posts, you've basically complained about presidents screwing over the supreme court by trying to force their ideologies upon it through their picks, yet, you defend the republican Congress and Senate for trying to force their ideologies on the court through stalling tactics in the post I quoted.


How does the senate not voting on a nominee equal forcing their ideologies on the court?
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#212 » by BKlutch » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:15 am

Greenie wrote:
Knicks_Fan2 wrote:I am sorry but the entire purpose of Article V and the Bill of Rights of the Constitution is to protect the minority from the majority. Amending the Constitution such that the Bill of Rights is subject to majority change would be a catastrophe and antithetical to principal provisions of that document. Would you really want Equal Protection, Freedom of Speech etc. to be subject to the will of a simple majority?

Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. No. I also don't want it left up to 9 people. This is why we have what's called a balance of power. We run a check and balance system. Each branch needs to do it's job. The SC's job is not to make law. It's to uphold what has already gone through congress and passed. That's too much power in so few hands. And since we understand they are all being appointed by ideology instead of pure knowledge of the constitution we have a problem. What you will end up having is an unbalanced system leaning heavily in favor of one group of people while giving nothing to the other. It's not right leaning either way.


That's a good point, Greenie. It was never the intent of the Constitution that laws originate in the Supreme Court. That is for the Congress.

Sometimes, however, laws are put into effect that conflict with the protections of the Constitution. In that case, the Court can overturn that law. For example, Roe v. Wade established that states could not deny a woman's right to a safe abortion (within limits). That could have been accomplished by a law, but instead, overturning laws that abridged women's rights seems to have accomplished mostly the same thing. Since that time, there have been some refinements, but as we saw in Texas a few months ago, when they passed a law for women's "safety" that had the intent of denying them abortions, the Court once again overturned that law.

Some people call this "legislating from the bench" (mostly those who oppose abortion). Those who favor a woman's right to choose call this protecting women's constitutional rights. Hence, the debate.

The judges appointed all have different philosophical and political points of view. Some are more "strict constructionist," in that they try to adhere to what they think the founders of the Constitution intended. Others believe that the Constitution was never meant to be a document that forever prevented social growth and progress, and try to see how the founders might have intended their document to apply to the present day. Both sides of this argument accept that the political tensions and discourse around the appointment of judges would keep somewhat of a balance. They understood that presidential elections would allow the VOTERS to ultimately have a voice in how the President they elect would choose a new Justice of the Supreme Court. Ours is what we call a representative democracy - the voters do not vote for every law and executive order, but they elect people who are entrusted with carrying out their will. For better or worse, that is how our system works.

Most of us have a lot of gripes about our system and nobody is 100% satisfied. That's probably best, because if group A is entirely satisfied, group B would not likely benefit very much from the government. Our system stinks, yes, but most people here still say it's the best one there is (so far).
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#213 » by Oscirus » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:15 am

FirePjax wrote:
Oscirus wrote:
FirePjax wrote:
How did you get to that from what I wrote?

In previous posts, you've basically complained about presidents screwing over the supreme court by trying to force their ideologies upon it through their picks, yet, you defend the republican Congress and Senate for trying to force their ideologies on the court through stalling tactics in the post I quoted.


How does the senate not voting on a nominee equal forcing their ideologies on the court?

They're stalling the vote in hopes that the next president voted in is republican. Nobody's stupid everybody knows that's what they're doing.
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#214 » by Greenie » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:23 am

Oscirus wrote:
Greenie wrote:
Oscirus wrote:So it's ok for peole to screw with the SC as long as their ideologies fit yours?

Is it OK for it to be screwed with to fit yours?
This goes both ways.


With stalling tactics? No it's not. I fully support the president's right to pick a judge based on his/her ideologies.

Would you need to trust that president to stay with ideologies you believe in to vote for them?
This is what many are basing voting for Hillary over Trump on right? Who she will nominate to SC.
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#215 » by Oscirus » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:34 am

Greenie wrote:
Oscirus wrote:
Greenie wrote:Is it OK for it to be screwed with to fit yours?
This goes both ways.


With stalling tactics? No it's not. I fully support the president's right to pick a judge based on his/her ideologies.

Would you need to trust that president to stay with ideologies you believe in to vote for them?
This is what many are basing voting for Hillary over Trump on right? Who she will nominate to SC.


Depends. If Trump had ideologies that were close to mine, I wouldn't trust him because he's incompetent but generally, yes I would.
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#216 » by Greenie » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:36 am

Oscirus wrote:
Greenie wrote:
Oscirus wrote:
With stalling tactics? No it's not. I fully support the president's right to pick a judge based on his/her ideologies.

Would you need to trust that president to stay with ideologies you believe in to vote for them?
This is what many are basing voting for Hillary over Trump on right? Who she will nominate to SC.


Depends. If Trump had ideologies that were close to mine, I wouldn't trust him because he's incompetent but generally, yes I would.

And I don't trust Hillary. So saying people should vote for her due to who she will nominate for SC is null and void.
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#217 » by BKlutch » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:44 am

This video was put out by Hillary's camp. I can't believe she's being so direct... maybe the times call for this:

https://amp.twimg.com/v/d0846c31-a8dc-4ded-8a8c-21bff379ec7f
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#218 » by Oscirus » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:46 am

Greenie wrote:
Oscirus wrote:
Greenie wrote:Would you need to trust that president to stay with ideologies you believe in to vote for them?
This is what many are basing voting for Hillary over Trump on right? Who she will nominate to SC.


Depends. If Trump had ideologies that were close to mine, I wouldn't trust him because he's incompetent but generally, yes I would.

And I don't trust Hillary. So saying people should vote for her due to who she will nominate for SC is null and void.


You don't trust the person or you don't trust her loyalty to the party? Because I definitely don't trust Hillary but I trust her to act in her best interests. At the moment her best interests align with my ideologies.
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#219 » by CJackson » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:51 am

BKlutch wrote:This video was put out by Hillary's camp. I can't believe she's being so direct... maybe the times call for this:

https://amp.twimg.com/v/d0846c31-a8dc-4ded-8a8c-21bff379ec7f


This is no time to hold back. Too many people don't know what Breitbart is up to and need to find out
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Re: All Things POLITICS 3.0 

Post#220 » by BKlutch » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:52 am

CJackson wrote:
BKlutch wrote:This video was put out by Hillary's camp. I can't believe she's being so direct... maybe the times call for this:

https://amp.twimg.com/v/d0846c31-a8dc-4ded-8a8c-21bff379ec7f


This is no time to hold back. Too many people don't know what Breitbart is up to and need to find out

I'm glad she's not holding back. They held back for Hitler, and that should be a warning. He started out the same way. "He isn't as bad as he sounds," is what they said. They were actually right. He was far worse.
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