"A Tale of 2 Hardawayz"

[prophet_of_rage]

A tale of 2 emotional states. Everybody all positive at the start or the season and bitter and angry at the end.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM Forums

[dakomish23]

Who is the other guy and how is his defense?

I think it’s Evan Fournier. Another terrible contract.

https://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/244660/The-10-Most-Tradable-Contracts-Of-2017

Ah Fournier... The guy with what is generally considered one of the best contracts in the league. Yeah, that'll make your point!

Also I'm taking healthy Timmy over Fournier. He has a higher ceiling if we go off how we've seen both play over 20 game stretches even if Fournier is more consistent. They're about even though and Fournier is considered one of the better contracts in the league so... Good job proving Timmy is worth his contract for me!

Evan makes slightly less, is younger and is def more efficient. Not sure how that proves the THJ contract is a good one.

[Dr. Detfink]

What complete ****. Tim started off the season on the bench last year playing 20 mpg in the first 18 games of the season, then took the 6th man role playing 25 mpg over the next 27 games and playing great, then the Hawks traded Threezus to open up a spot for him in the starting 5 and he averaged 33 mpg over the next 34 games putting up 18 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.9 apg, and leading the team in minutes and points.

Over the last 35 games of that season here's the Hawks big 3:

Points - Timmy (612), Dennis (595), Millsap (470)
Minutes - Timmy (1119), Dennis (1053), Millsap (858)

Now Millsap got injured and per game averaged more than those two but per game it looks like:

Timmy: 32.9 mpg, 18.0 ppg
Millsap: 34.3 mpg, 18.8 ppg
Dennis: 32.9 mpg, 18.6 ppg

And remember Timmy started only 25 of those last 34 games (and when he started he played 34.1 mpg). Timmy was the clear 2nd best player, and he was Bud's most played player by the end of the season.

Now onto his play this year he got off to a rough start, then played like a legit 2nd option for a while, got hurt, and by the time he was back healthy KP was hurt and the season was dead.

I'd say he had just as good of a year as expected but having to be the best player the last 20 or so games made him look bad because that's not him. He's a mediocre 2nd option/good 3rd option kind of guy and I think its great he found a way to produce in a season where he was shooting a career low from 3, playing out of position, and was banged up. He's still a 25 year old giving us 18/4/3 every night and since he's gotten healthy without KP he's averaging 20.2/3.5/2.4 on 56.1 TS% (19 games too).

IDK what y'all expected beyond that. He's only making 16.7% of the cap this year (or equal to $10-10.5 million under the old cap) and y'all upset he's not an All Star. JJ Redick is making 23 mil, Harrison Barnes is making 23 mil, Batum is making 22 mil, Gallo is making 21 mil, Crabbe is making 19 mil, and Wes Matthews is making 18 mil. If I was grading his season I'd give him a C or C+. About what I expected, possibly a little better for being able to perform despite having injuries.

16.7% isn’t a small number

It is. Tim is the 29th highest paid SG/SF putting him almost exactly as the median starting wing when it comes to his contract (the true median is 30th ranked Tobias Harris at $16 million). Timmy is a slightly above average starter in terms of production, while being 1.2 years younger than the average player, and making $0.5 million over the average starter at the 2/3 (and that's including all the guys that got contracts in the old cap). That's a good deal no matter how you break it down.

Exactly.

Is Tim Hardaway Jr productive? Yes.

Is he overpaid? Absolutely. The Knicks outbid the Hawks and were only in competition with themselves. Timmy is the 7th best player on a competitive team.

On a horrific team like the Knicks going nowhere, he’s second best. That’s arguable with Trey Burke’s recent play.

[Fat Kat]

i mean hes not wrong about DSJ's talent. he really does have have the potential to be elite imo. in the month of march he averaged 18 ppg and 5.8 assists which is solid for someone who just turned 20 years old.

however i do agree with you on tim. i don't think pairing him with dsj is a good combination. maybe hardaway comes back nxt year and proves us wrong. however we are now in a bad situation cause we have burke balling out who might be our starter long term and we also got frank... which is the ideal back court that works. so now tim is left as the 6th man. you know i have no problem with him as the 6th man but would the front office look at him the same way? that's the million dollar question. just gotta hope that we figure out this mess next season

Whatever. I've been having these discussions back when dudes were trying to tell me Mudiay was gonna be better than KP. DSJ will be good for a few highlights, but that's it.

we'll see. i think smith is in a environment where he can turn out to be the exact opposite of mudiay. a top 5 coach like carislie will do him wonders imo.

Perhaps, but I happen to think he'll be slightly better than Nate Robinson. We will see though. However my point wasn't really to compare DSJ to Mudiay, but to highlight the way some dudes evaluate prospects.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1389034&start=60

Things like focus and defense are harder to improve than some think.

[E-Balla]

I think it’s Evan Fournier. Another terrible contract.

https://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/244660/The-10-Most-Tradable-Contracts-Of-2017

Ah Fournier... The guy with what is generally considered one of the best contracts in the league. Yeah, that'll make your point!

Also I'm taking healthy Timmy over Fournier. He has a higher ceiling if we go off how we've seen both play over 20 game stretches even if Fournier is more consistent. They're about even though and Fournier is considered one of the better contracts in the league so... Good job proving Timmy is worth his contract for me!

Evan makes slightly less, is younger and is def more efficient. Not sure how that proves the THJ contract is a good one.

Evan does make slightly less but he is only half a year younger than Timmy, and he's not more efficient. People forget turnovers matter but Fournier has a 11.8 career TOV% which is great but Timmy has a career 8.5 TOV% which is 12th highest all time (and only under Kerry Kittles and Michael Redd among players with over a 10 AST%). Overall Fournier and Timmy both have a career 107 ORTG and a 108 ORTG over the last 2 seasons.

Plus like I said before Timmy has had to deal with serious injuries and if you remove his first 9 games when he came back from injury (in those 9 he had a 75 ORTG and 36.5 TS%) Timmy has averaged 19.0/3.9/2.8 on 55.7 TS% with a 110 ORTG (vs 17.8/3.2/2.9 on 57.7 TS% with a 110 ORTG for Fournier).

They're on the same level overall but Timmy has a higher ceiling so I'd take him and if Fournier has a top 10 contract Timmy's having slightly less value that that doesn't make his contract bad, just not top 10.

[3toheadmelo]

Whatever. I've been having these discussions back when dudes were trying to tell me Mudiay was gonna be better than KP. DSJ will be good for a few highlights, but that's it.

we'll see. i think smith is in a environment where he can turn out to be the exact opposite of mudiay. a top 5 coach like carislie will do him wonders imo.

Perhaps, but I happen to think he'll be slightly better than Nate Robinson. We will see though. However my point wasn't really to compare DSJ to Mudiay, but to highlight the way some dudes evaluate prospects.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1389034&start=60

Things like focus and defense are harder to improve than some think.

i hear ya. sometimes we’re right when it comes to evaluating prospects , sometimes we’re wrong. no ones perfect. two recent examples of poor defenders in college from the top of my head who are actually good now are Ben Simmons and lonzo ball. so I mean, you just never know how these guys will turn out to be in the pros. I'll admit too I liked Okafor ( as a top 4 prospect). i didn’t think he was gonna bust so hard. especially after having a solid rookie year. not sure what happened right after that.

even josh Jackson who was a lockdown defender last year, isn’t exactly a great defender right now (although he’s been balling for a minute). anything can happen once they enter the pros

[dakomish23]

https://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/244660/The-10-Most-Tradable-Contracts-Of-2017

Ah Fournier... The guy with what is generally considered one of the best contracts in the league. Yeah, that'll make your point!

Also I'm taking healthy Timmy over Fournier. He has a higher ceiling if we go off how we've seen both play over 20 game stretches even if Fournier is more consistent. They're about even though and Fournier is considered one of the better contracts in the league so... Good job proving Timmy is worth his contract for me!

Evan makes slightly less, is younger and is def more efficient. Not sure how that proves the THJ contract is a good one.

Evan does make slightly less but he is only half a year younger than Timmy, and he's not more efficient. People forget turnovers matter but Fournier has a 11.8 career TOV% which is great but Timmy has a career 8.5 TOV% which is 12th highest all time (and only under Kerry Kittles and Michael Redd among players with over a 10 AST%). Overall Fournier and Timmy both have a career 107 ORTG and a 108 ORTG over the last 2 seasons.

Plus like I said before Timmy has had to deal with serious injuries and if you remove his first 9 games when he came back from injury (in those 9 he had a 75 ORTG and 36.5 TS%) Timmy has averaged 19.0/3.9/2.8 on 55.7 TS% with a 110 ORTG (vs 17.8/3.2/2.9 on 57.7 TS% with a 110 ORTG for Fournier).

They're on the same level overall but Timmy has a higher ceiling so I'd take him and if Fournier has a top 10 contract Timmy's having slightly less value that that doesn't make his contract bad, just not top 10.

Can’t play the “lets remove these games” card for THJ and not remove the worst games for the guy you’re comparing him to.

Also, the reason why the Fournier contract was widely accepted as a good deal was because guys were getting massively overpaid and folks expected him to take the leap, which he hasn’t.

I’d make him a 6th man too.

[E-Balla]

Evan makes slightly less, is younger and is def more efficient. Not sure how that proves the THJ contract is a good one.

Evan does make slightly less but he is only half a year younger than Timmy, and he's not more efficient. People forget turnovers matter but Fournier has a 11.8 career TOV% which is great but Timmy has a career 8.5 TOV% which is 12th highest all time (and only under Kerry Kittles and Michael Redd among players with over a 10 AST%). Overall Fournier and Timmy both have a career 107 ORTG and a 108 ORTG over the last 2 seasons.

Plus like I said before Timmy has had to deal with serious injuries and if you remove his first 9 games when he came back from injury (in those 9 he had a 75 ORTG and 36.5 TS%) Timmy has averaged 19.0/3.9/2.8 on 55.7 TS% with a 110 ORTG (vs 17.8/3.2/2.9 on 57.7 TS% with a 110 ORTG for Fournier).

They're on the same level overall but Timmy has a higher ceiling so I'd take him and if Fournier has a top 10 contract Timmy's having slightly less value that that doesn't make his contract bad, just not top 10.

Can’t play the “lets remove these games” card for THJ and not remove the worst games for the guy you’re comparing him to.

Also, the reason why the Fournier contract was widely accepted as a good deal was because guys were getting massively overpaid and folks expected him to take the leap, which he hasn’t.

I’d make him a 6th man too.

I'm removing a stretch of consecutive games where he was playing himself back into shape. I don't see how that's unfair when we're comparing the level of play for both guys and not just their play in this one season.

And Fournier's deal was seen as good because a 18/3/3 guy for 16% of the cap has been and will always be a great deal. Clearly worse players like JJ Redick, Harrison Barnes, Evan Turner, and Allen Crabbe are making 20-25 mil.

[dakomish23]

Evan does make slightly less but he is only half a year younger than Timmy, and he's not more efficient. People forget turnovers matter but Fournier has a 11.8 career TOV% which is great but Timmy has a career 8.5 TOV% which is 12th highest all time (and only under Kerry Kittles and Michael Redd among players with over a 10 AST%). Overall Fournier and Timmy both have a career 107 ORTG and a 108 ORTG over the last 2 seasons.

Plus like I said before Timmy has had to deal with serious injuries and if you remove his first 9 games when he came back from injury (in those 9 he had a 75 ORTG and 36.5 TS%) Timmy has averaged 19.0/3.9/2.8 on 55.7 TS% with a 110 ORTG (vs 17.8/3.2/2.9 on 57.7 TS% with a 110 ORTG for Fournier).

They're on the same level overall but Timmy has a higher ceiling so I'd take him and if Fournier has a top 10 contract Timmy's having slightly less value that that doesn't make his contract bad, just not top 10.

Can’t play the “lets remove these games” card for THJ and not remove the worst games for the guy you’re comparing him to.

Also, the reason why the Fournier contract was widely accepted as a good deal was because guys were getting massively overpaid and folks expected him to take the leap, which he hasn’t.

I’d make him a 6th man too.

I'm removing a stretch of consecutive games where he was playing himself back into shape. I don't see how that's unfair when we're comparing the level of play for both guys and not just their play in this one season.

And Fournier's deal was seen as good because a 18/3/3 guy for 16% of the cap has been and will always be a great deal. Clearly worse players like JJ Redick, Harrison Barnes, Evan Turner, and Allen Crabbe are making 20-25 mil.

For it be apples to apples, you gotta take the whole body of work IMO since both were starters.

Reddick is a 1+1 with a team option. In no way comparable to a 4 year with a P.O. & a trade kicker. Turner and Crabbe are considered terrible deals. Being better than some of the worst deals in the NBA is a low bar for determining if the THJ deal was a good one.

18.9 PPG 6.2 RPG 2.0 APG 0.7 SPG
45% FG% 36% 3PT% 83% FT% 54% TS%

A lot of folks would take Barnes over THJ

[E-Balla]

Can’t play the “lets remove these games” card for THJ and not remove the worst games for the guy you’re comparing him to.

Also, the reason why the Fournier contract was widely accepted as a good deal was because guys were getting massively overpaid and folks expected him to take the leap, which he hasn’t.

I’d make him a 6th man too.

I'm removing a stretch of consecutive games where he was playing himself back into shape. I don't see how that's unfair when we're comparing the level of play for both guys and not just their play in this one season.

And Fournier's deal was seen as good because a 18/3/3 guy for 16% of the cap has been and will always be a great deal. Clearly worse players like JJ Redick, Harrison Barnes, Evan Turner, and Allen Crabbe are making 20-25 mil.

For it be apples to apples, you gotta take the whole body of work IMO since both were starters.

Reddick is a 1+1 with a team option. In no way comparable to a 4 year with a P.O. & a trade kicker. Turner and Crabbe are considered terrible deals. Being better than some of the worst deals in the NBA is a low bar for determining if the THJ deal was a good one.

18.9 PPG 6.2 RPG 2.0 APG 0.7 SPG
45% FG% 36% 3PT% 83% FT% 54% TS%

A lot of folks would take Barnes over THJ

A lot of folks also know nothing about basketball. Timmy took a starting job on a playoff team last year. Barnes is performing on a terrible team.

[dakomish23]

I'm removing a stretch of consecutive games where he was playing himself back into shape. I don't see how that's unfair when we're comparing the level of play for both guys and not just their play in this one season.

And Fournier's deal was seen as good because a 18/3/3 guy for 16% of the cap has been and will always be a great deal. Clearly worse players like JJ Redick, Harrison Barnes, Evan Turner, and Allen Crabbe are making 20-25 mil.

For it be apples to apples, you gotta take the whole body of work IMO since both were starters.

Reddick is a 1+1 with a team option. In no way comparable to a 4 year with a P.O. & a trade kicker. Turner and Crabbe are considered terrible deals. Being better than some of the worst deals in the NBA is a low bar for determining if the THJ deal was a good one.

18.9 PPG 6.2 RPG 2.0 APG 0.7 SPG
45% FG% 36% 3PT% 83% FT% 54% TS%

A lot of folks would take Barnes over THJ

A lot of folks also know nothing about basketball. Timmy took a starting job on a playoff team last year. Barnes is performing on a terrible team.

Both are putting up similar numbers on garbage teams this year.

Except Barnes does it better.

[god shammgod]

is this still going ?

[god shammgod]

magic vs knicks tonight, we can see the grand results from investing in hardaway or fournier live and in person. i'm sure it's gonna be great.

[E-Balla]

For it be apples to apples, you gotta take the whole body of work IMO since both were starters.

Reddick is a 1+1 with a team option. In no way comparable to a 4 year with a P.O. & a trade kicker. Turner and Crabbe are considered terrible deals. Being better than some of the worst deals in the NBA is a low bar for determining if the THJ deal was a good one.

18.9 PPG 6.2 RPG 2.0 APG 0.7 SPG
45% FG% 36% 3PT% 83% FT% 54% TS%

A lot of folks would take Barnes over THJ

A lot of folks also know nothing about basketball. Timmy took a starting job on a playoff team last year. Barnes is performing on a terrible team.

Both are putting up similar numbers on garbage teams this year.

Except Barnes does it better.

Timmy had these same numbers when we were winning and last year in Atlanta as they won. Barnes has never had numbers on a winning team his whole career and his whole offensive game is just iso, iso, iso despite having a great coach and offensive system around him.

[Capn'O]

I don't want any of those guys as one of my top options.

[god shammgod]

I don't want any of those guys as one of my top options.

ding. ding. ding. we have a winner.

[br7knicks]

I don't want any of those guys as one of my top options.

[Jalen Bluntson]

magic vs knicks tonight, we can see the grand results from investing in hardaway or fournier live and in person. i'm sure it's gonna be great.

Fournier hasn't played in weeks. He's playing tonight?

[god shammgod]

magic vs knicks tonight, we can see the grand results from investing in hardaway or fournier live and in person. i'm sure it's gonna be great.

Fournier hasn't played in weeks. He's playing tonight?

i guess you're right. he's not.

[Jalen Bluntson]

magic vs knicks tonight, we can see the grand results from investing in hardaway or fournier live and in person. i'm sure it's gonna be great.

Fournier hasn't played in weeks. He's playing tonight?

i guess you're right. he's not.

Yeah...he killed me in fantasy. He was killing it for me and then...the tank injury has had him on the sidelines for a month at least. Devin Booker too. Tyreke Evans. These guys were filling up stat sheets all year and then the tank race took them out. I finished second trying to replace their production.

End rant.