Hot Topic - Quite Frankly; All Things Frank

[NoLayupRule]

Quite simply there is no rush or reason to trade frank
Development takes years. For some players and positions it takes even longer. The pg position is the hardest. And frank is still only 20

He’s not expensive and we don’t have any motivation to move him

Just be calm people. Develop over time like real teams do

I honestly cant think of but a few teams that actually took time and patience with a pg, didn't trade them and let them develop.

MCW immediately came to mind, won ROTY and got traded. Fultz came back in the season...logged virtually zero playoff minutes despite being healthy to play.

I saw people brought up nash but he didn't stick originally with his drafted team.

Then Billups.

Lakers didn't keep D-Lo, drafted another one in his place. I can see the Knicks doing the same with Ja, and it's precisely why they went out the last two years and added Burke and Mudiay.

You either got it or you don't, the pg position isn't one where teams wait and see.


Frank is 20, but Frank is on the clock.

but frank isn't a pg, he's a guy that's capable of running it but he's not a pg.

fizdale sorta had it right in making him the sf but what he did wrong was not having frank run plays as the sf.

nicolas batum/joe ingles should be the blue print for frank.

you're splitting hairs

whats the real difference between a point guard and a guard playing point?
in todays NBA the top point guards are all SGs in the traditional sense
the point duties have been spread around the team. Everyone is expected to pass and shoot.

I have no issues with Frank being a playmaking guard instead of a point guard but in order for this not to be seen as an issue he's gonna need a guard next to him who's a scoring minded guy. Mudiay is that but I'm thinking a little bigger like Kyrie or Kemba. Next to them he will seem like an asset

[NoLayupRule]

then I guess the Spurs are a dying breed

Id love a boring PG like Dejounte Murray on our team

Murray isn't boring. Have you watched him rebound?

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exactly my point

Id love a "boring" guy like him who's way more exciting to me than Mudiay or Burke anyday

[HarthorneWingo]

Read on Twitter

Ntilikina’s popularity is a paradox. Heated online debates rage between Frank fans and Frank haters. Is it because he plays for a fan base obsessed with finding the next great point guard hope? Is it because he is too reluctant to shoot in an era when point guards are expected to be more than pass-first facilitators?

Or is it the fact that he was Phil Jackson’s draft pick? That the Knicks passed on two point guards — Dennis Smith Jr. and Donovan Mitchell — to take him? That his development is not progressing fast enough? And on it goes.

The amount of angst and ink spent on the great Frank debate is certainly out of proportion with the number of minutes — 22 — he is averaging. The love, though, seems to outweigh the criticism.

[kane2021]

Read on Twitter

Ntilikina’s popularity is a paradox. Heated online debates rage between Frank fans and Frank haters. Is it because he plays for a fan base obsessed with finding the next great point guard hope? Is it because he is too reluctant to shoot in an era when point guards are expected to be more than pass-first facilitators?

Or is it the fact that he was Phil Jackson’s draft pick? That the Knicks passed on two point guards — Dennis Smith Jr. and Donovan Mitchell — to take him? That his development is not progressing fast enough? And on it goes.

The amount of angst and ink spent on the great Frank debate is certainly out of proportion with the number of minutes — 22 — he is averaging. The love, though, seems to outweigh the criticism.

This is the stuff that really bothers me. Why is everything one side or the other? The real is in the middle. People don’t have to take a firm stance. Especially for something like this. Things change every day. Nothing is absolute in entertainment. Even the most consistent vary. There’s actually people who take it as it comes and call it for what it is at the moment. Don’t got to be fans and haters. To me that’s phony. Unconditional is reserved for that that’s dear. How can someone take a firm stance on a variable? Intermittence is the most difficult problem to troubleshoot. Because it changes. So if something isn’t right you have to look at the data. The facts as they are presented currently. If you choose to take a side, you’ll never come to a real conclusion. Because you’re waiting for what you want to see.


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[Clyde_Style]

Read on Twitter

Ntilikina’s popularity is a paradox. Heated online debates rage between Frank fans and Frank haters. Is it because he plays for a fan base obsessed with finding the next great point guard hope? Is it because he is too reluctant to shoot in an era when point guards are expected to be more than pass-first facilitators?

Or is it the fact that he was Phil Jackson’s draft pick? That the Knicks passed on two point guards — Dennis Smith Jr. and Donovan Mitchell — to take him? That his development is not progressing fast enough? And on it goes.

The amount of angst and ink spent on the great Frank debate is certainly out of proportion with the number of minutes — 22 — he is averaging. The love, though, seems to outweigh the criticism.

This is the stuff that really bothers me. Why is everything one side or the other? The real is in the middle. People don’t have to take a firm stance. Especially for something like this. Things change every day. Nothing is absolute in entertainment. Even the most consistent vary. There’s actually people who take it as it comes and call it for what it is at the moment. Don’t got to be fans and haters. To me that’s phony. Unconditional is reserved for that that’s dear. How can someone take a firm stance on a variable? Intermittence is the most difficult problem to troubleshoot. Because it changes. So if something isn’t right you have to look at the data. The facts as they are presented currently. If you choose to take a side, you’ll never come to a real conclusion. Because you’re waiting for what you want to see.


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Not sure what you mean, because if I say: Give Frank more time to grow and prove himself, am I taking a side?

That's a POV, but not necessarily a conviction.

It doesn't mean I know for sure what Frank will become even if I think he might turn the corner and become something special. I get that you don't see that potential, but it doesn't bother me that you don't.

I think the side(s) happen when someone says no, he's never going to be this or that, nothing to see here, he's a bust, etc. then that sounds like a conviction to me. Right?

So this idea that a board gets divided into sides is not always evenly weighted when one set of people say be patient and another set says no point, he's trash or not worth the bother.

I've said fans or the FO would be nuts to give up on him already, not because I KNOW he's going to be a great success, but because he already has some value even if only as a defender, is on a rookie deal and the team can afford to wait longer to find out how he pans out.

So I don't really see sides like you might, because for the most part I see honesty amongst Frank supporters about his shortcomings which means they accept those variables you're speaking of and they don't know for sure how it will play out.

IOW, the fence between "sides" only requires doubters to make a final judgment on Frank now to even create this thing called sides. In truth, the supporters are not being belligerent about Frank, but sometimes pushing back against those who've essentially already written him off.

[BLACKFEET 2010]

The issue isn’t our opinion. The issue is the front office doesn’t view him as a point guard. And therefore they have no interest developing him at that spot. He plays point for twenty secomds and then either Burke or Mud (or Trier) come in the game and move Frank off the ball. I think he deserves a shot but my opinion doesn’t matter. But I hope people are paying attention though. These point guards take a while. Point guards that even receive top college coaching, struggle usually to start their careers. Guys like Dame are the outliers. Frank is gonna eventually get the rock and chance to run a team. I believe so. But it’s clear it won’t happen here....unless KP demands it.

And even then, we don’t really know.

But I’m a Mudiay guy. I think his upside is tremendous and I think he’s the guy who’s acting on his potential now, at the right time in his still very young career.
He’s turning into a good player despite people holding his rawness entering the league against him.

Can’t Voltron/Frankenstein form a point guard. All players have warts. I’ll take my warts 6’5”, 200 lbs with a willingness to be coached and pushed. It’s working. The “git right” that is. For Muds. Frank? Not so much.
And again, I just don’t think they trust him as a point guard. If he’s a wing IMO, he’s really not that special.

Frank really doesn’t have the offensive pride an NBA lead guard needs. This isn’t Cousy-ball. You gotta score. The defense is great and it’s sexy to talk defense but it’s (Frank’s) still as incomplete a game as say an Enes Kanter. It’s one way. It hurts the team. It’s nearly at four on five levels. And please don’t tell me about his passing because a keen enough defense will almost always play him for the pass. He’s actually uncomfortable when he looks for his shot, make or miss. He almost ALWAYS fouls after a nice little offensive move the trip before.

Don’t clutch your pearls that hard. I’m not comparing him to Enes. I’m saying both are incomplete players yes but Frankie’s flaws may just be in his make up. I don’t know if you can teach him to...well, play wrong; look for your shot point guard, and shoot that three, ignore time, situation and score. ‘Tis the job descript. He’s stubbornly fundamental. He just may top out in three or four years as a 13 ppg 5 app guy.

I just don’t think Fiz’s “git right” is really Frankie’s cup of cappuccino. And we know that Mills wouldn’t have made the decision “if it were his to make” to draft Frank. So I’m not sure there’s a vision for him here with his biggest fans now no longer parts of the organization.

[blanko]

Let's ask this question, if KP comes back and Kevin becomes a 20 points per game scorer : what kind of point guard do you need?

Also add the possibility of us signing a major free agent this year. Who would fit next to these 3 offensive options? A guy like Frank or a guy who shoots a lot from the point guard position?

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[blanko]

Part of me wants to keep him and see how he develops. That part of me is wearing thin. If he doesnt develop into something food before feb 2020, cut him. Cant wait that long on a developing prospect. Some got it and some dont. How long are we suppose to wait for a developing prospect? 3 years is enough for me. Frank Nitty need to snap out of it and learn quick. I'll give him one mor year, that's it. If theres no progress before the trade deadline in feb 2020, he gots to go

Actually 3 years is not enough. He would have been one of the youngest rookies of this year's draft. As draft picks are getting younger and younger they will take longer to develop.

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[HarthorneWingo]

The issue isn’t our opinion. The issue is the front office doesn’t view him as a point guard. And therefore they have no interest developing him at that spot. He plays point for twenty secomds and then either Burke or Mud (or Trier) come in the game and move Frank off the ball. I think he deserves a shot but my opinion doesn’t matter. But I hope people are paying attention though. These point guards take a while. Point guards that even receive top college coaching, struggle usually to start their careers. Guys like Dame are the outliers. Frank is gonna eventually get the rock and chance to run a team. I believe so. But it’s clear it won’t happen here....unless KP demands it.

And even then, we don’t really know.

But I’m a Mudiay guy. I think his upside is tremendous and I think he’s the guy who’s acting on his potential now, at the right time in his still very young career.
He’s turning into a good player despite people holding his rawness entering the league against him.

Can’t Voltron/Frankenstein form a point guard. All players have warts. I’ll take my warts 6’5”, 200 lbs with a willingness to be coached and pushed. It’s working. The “git right” that is. For Muds. Frank? Not so much.
And again, I just don’t think they trust him as a point guard. If he’s a wing IMO, he’s really not that special.

Frank really doesn’t have the offensive pride an NBA lead guard needs. This isn’t Cousy-ball. You gotta score. The defense is great and it’s sexy to talk defense but it’s (Frank’s) still as incomplete a game as say an Enes Kanter. It’s one way. It hurts the team. It’s nearly at four on five levels. And please don’t tell me about his passing because a keen enough defense will almost always play him for the pass. He’s actually uncomfortable when he looks for his shot, make or miss. He almost ALWAYS fouls after a nice little offensive move the trip before.

Don’t clutch your pearls that hard. I’m not comparing him to Enes. I’m saying both are incomplete players yes but Frankie’s flaws may just be in his make up. I don’t know if you can teach him to...well, play wrong; look for your shot point guard, and shoot that three, ignore time, situation and score. ‘Tis the job descript. He’s stubbornly fundamental. He just may top out in three or four years as a 13 ppg 5 app guy.

I just don’t think Fiz’s “git right” is really Frankie’s cup of cappuccino. And we know that Mills wouldn’t have made the decision “if it were his to make” to draft Frank. So I’m not sure there’s a vision for him here with his biggest fans now no longer parts of the organization.

Well, KP likes Frank at PG. And if KP like Frank at PG, then Janis must like Frank at PG. And if Janis likes Frank at PG, then Frank is playing PG.

Or he vill kill you.

[Knicksfan1992]

I dont know if saying Frank is hurting us out there is fair. If were judging on that scale I'd put him more at that hes not really helping us out there or hurting us either.... hes just sort of been another inconsistent young guy when you take the internet hoopla away.... Has had great moments defensively and more often than not makes the right play that covers up our normally **** defense to as much extent as a wing/guard player can but all that is mired in poor shooting both off the catch and off the dribble and an inability/willingness to do anything effective outside of passing in a pick and roll situation save a few hot games... I dont think hes actively hurting people because he doesnt have enough usage to do that yet.

[blanko]

The issue isn’t our opinion. The issue is the front office doesn’t view him as a point guard. And therefore they have no interest developing him at that spot. He plays point for twenty secomds and then either Burke or Mud (or Trier) come in the game and move Frank off the ball. I think he deserves a shot but my opinion doesn’t matter. But I hope people are paying attention though. These point guards take a while. Point guards that even receive top college coaching, struggle usually to start their careers. Guys like Dame are the outliers. Frank is gonna eventually get the rock and chance to run a team. I believe so. But it’s clear it won’t happen here....unless KP demands it.

And even then, we don’t really know.

But I’m a Mudiay guy. I think his upside is tremendous and I think he’s the guy who’s acting on his potential now, at the right time in his still very young career.
He’s turning into a good player despite people holding his rawness entering the league against him.

Can’t Voltron/Frankenstein form a point guard. All players have warts. I’ll take my warts 6’5”, 200 lbs with a willingness to be coached and pushed. It’s working. The “git right” that is. For Muds. Frank? Not so much.
And again, I just don’t think they trust him as a point guard. If he’s a wing IMO, he’s really not that special.

Frank really doesn’t have the offensive pride an NBA lead guard needs. This isn’t Cousy-ball. You gotta score. The defense is great and it’s sexy to talk defense but it’s (Frank’s) still as incomplete a game as say an Enes Kanter. It’s one way. It hurts the team. It’s nearly at four on five levels. And please don’t tell me about his passing because a keen enough defense will almost always play him for the pass. He’s actually uncomfortable when he looks for his shot, make or miss. He almost ALWAYS fouls after a nice little offensive move the trip before.

Don’t clutch your pearls that hard. I’m not comparing him to Enes. I’m saying both are incomplete players yes but Frankie’s flaws may just be in his make up. I don’t know if you can teach him to...well, play wrong; look for your shot point guard, and shoot that three, ignore time, situation and score. ‘Tis the job descript. He’s stubbornly fundamental. He just may top out in three or four years as a 13 ppg 5 app guy.

I just don’t think Fiz’s “git right” is really Frankie’s cup of cappuccino. And we know that Mills wouldn’t have made the decision “if it were his to make” to draft Frank. So I’m not sure there’s a vision for him here with his biggest fans now no longer parts of the organization.

And how long did it take mud to get his **** together?

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[prophet_of_rage]

Let's ask this question, if KP comes back and Kevin becomes a 20 points per game scorer : what kind of point guard do you need?

Also add the possibility of us signing a major free agent this year. Who would fit next to these 3 offensive options? A guy like Frank or a guy who shoots a lot from the point guard position?

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A guy who creates easy shots for them. So neither. They will just double off Frank. And a tunnel vision scorer like Burle doesn't help. But a CP3, Conley, Harden, Lowry type woukd be great.

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[ARTjoMS]

I think the way Frank has been treated this season displays "we don't trust you and we don't know what to do with you":
* Not starting him in preseason
* Making him to play various positions
* Benching him for no good reason
* Give him very limited offensive role: please dribble over, pass and wait in the corner.

.. and now they say that they work on his confidence. Tsss. I like Frank, but if we keep this FO and coach we may as well just trade him.

[thebuzzardman]

Knicks working on Frank's confidence

A professional basketball team is working on the confidence of a player drafted 8th overall in the NBA draft.

The Knicks specifically said they were working on Mudiay's confidence and he was drafted where? What year was it in the league for him? IIRC, Mudiay went a few slots higher and has 2 full seasons on Frank.

Saying they are "working on x players confidence" is either something this Knicks regime believes in, or it's a term they are using somewhat out of context, in that they kind of mean it, but also mean they are working on the players game, approach, everything. I think the term got used for Knox, but I could be wrong. Definitely for Mudiay.

There's a quote from within the last few weeks where Mudiay says "I'm playing better because I have more confidence and that comes from the organization believing in me" - I'm paraphrasing but it's something along those lines.

This is aside from the argument whether he'll ultimately have it or not, or if Frank or Mudiay are different players etc etc. They took some time to get Mudiay right/better, they seem to be taking a similar approach with Frank.

And while personally, I think it's a better idea to up Frank's minutes as he's actually signed next year, on the other hand, Mudiay's contract is up at the end of the year, so the argument is also there that they should focus more on getting Mudiay "right" to clarify the decision on whether or not to resign/how much/etc, while for Frank, they can go slower/less minutes as there is more time available for the answer (end of rookie contract)

[blanko]

Let's ask this question, if KP comes back and Kevin becomes a 20 points per game scorer : what kind of point guard do you need?

Also add the possibility of us signing a major free agent this year. Who would fit next to these 3 offensive options? A guy like Frank or a guy who shoots a lot from the point guard position?

Sent from my SM-N960N using Tapatalk

A guy who creates easy shots for them. So neither. They will just double off Frank. And a tunnel vision scorer like Burle doesn't help. But a CP3, Conley, Harden, Lowry type woukd be great.

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Conley, and lowry took many years to become good.

Harden would be horrible

Cp3 would be perfect.

You want a ball distribution defensive guard ( like conley was for almost a decade before his offensive improved).

Frank ia that. His shot will improve.

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[MaseInYourFace]

The issue isn’t our opinion. The issue is the front office doesn’t view him as a point guard. And therefore they have no interest developing him at that spot. He plays point for twenty secomds and then either Burke or Mud (or Trier) come in the game and move Frank off the ball. I think he deserves a shot but my opinion doesn’t matter. But I hope people are paying attention though. These point guards take a while. Point guards that even receive top college coaching, struggle usually to start their careers. Guys like Dame are the outliers. Frank is gonna eventually get the rock and chance to run a team. I believe so. But it’s clear it won’t happen here....unless KP demands it.

And even then, we don’t really know.

But I’m a Mudiay guy. I think his upside is tremendous and I think he’s the guy who’s acting on his potential now, at the right time in his still very young career.
He’s turning into a good player despite people holding his rawness entering the league against him.

Can’t Voltron/Frankenstein form a point guard. All players have warts. I’ll take my warts 6’5”, 200 lbs with a willingness to be coached and pushed. It’s working. The “git right” that is. For Muds. Frank? Not so much.
And again, I just don’t think they trust him as a point guard. If he’s a wing IMO, he’s really not that special.

Frank really doesn’t have the offensive pride an NBA lead guard needs. This isn’t Cousy-ball. You gotta score. The defense is great and it’s sexy to talk defense but it’s (Frank’s) still as incomplete a game as say an Enes Kanter. It’s one way. It hurts the team. It’s nearly at four on five levels. And please don’t tell me about his passing because a keen enough defense will almost always play him for the pass. He’s actually uncomfortable when he looks for his shot, make or miss. He almost ALWAYS fouls after a nice little offensive move the trip before.

Don’t clutch your pearls that hard. I’m not comparing him to Enes. I’m saying both are incomplete players yes but Frankie’s flaws may just be in his make up. I don’t know if you can teach him to...well, play wrong; look for your shot point guard, and shoot that three, ignore time, situation and score. ‘Tis the job descript. He’s stubbornly fundamental. He just may top out in three or four years as a 13 ppg 5 app guy.

I just don’t think Fiz’s “git right” is really Frankie’s cup of cappuccino. And we know that Mills wouldn’t have made the decision “if it were his to make” to draft Frank. So I’m not sure there’s a vision for him here with his biggest fans now no longer parts of the organization.

The way Frank plays so mechanically I really don't see a lot of teams being like "yeah that's an NBA point guard right there."

[MaseInYourFace]

I think the way Frank has been treated this season displays "we don't trust you and we don't know what to do with you":
* Not starting him in preseason
* Making him to play various positions
* Benching him for no good reason
* Give him very limited offensive role: please dribble over, pass and wait in the corner.

.. and now they say that they work on his confidence. Tsss. I like Frank, but if we keep this FO and coach we may as well just trade him.

That's how Frank likes to play. He isn't comfortable with the ball in his hands long time.

[Besart19]

Add Steve Nash to the coaching staff

[Galou]

Part of me wants to keep him and see how he develops. That part of me is wearing thin. If he doesnt develop into something food before feb 2020, cut him. Cant wait that long on a developing prospect. Some got it and some dont. How long are we suppose to wait for a developing prospect? 3 years is enough for me. Frank Nitty need to snap out of it and learn quick. I'll give him one mor year, that's it. If theres no progress before the trade deadline in feb 2020, he gots to go

Actually 3 years is not enough. He would have been one of the youngest rookies of this year's draft. As draft picks are getting younger and younger they will take longer to develop.

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Seems like its been getting young for the longest. I'm aware it takes some point guards a while to develop but they're different today than they were 10-15 years ago. So i expect them to learn quick. This generation like to say that basketball is better than it was in the 90s. They say they have better athleticism, IQ's, and other stuff. 4 yrs to develop a point guard? Steve Nash, Kyle Lowry, and Michael Conley represent the old format to me.

[prophet_of_rage]

Let's ask this question, if KP comes back and Kevin becomes a 20 points per game scorer : what kind of point guard do you need?

Also add the possibility of us signing a major free agent this year. Who would fit next to these 3 offensive options? A guy like Frank or a guy who shoots a lot from the point guard position?

Sent from my SM-N960N using Tapatalk

A guy who creates easy shots for them. So neither. They will just double off Frank. And a tunnel vision scorer like Burle doesn't help. But a CP3, Conley, Harden, Lowry type woukd be great.

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Conley, and lowry took many years to become good.

Harden would be horrible

Cp3 would be perfect.

You want a ball distribution defensive guard ( like conley was for almost a decade before his offensive improved).

Frank ia that. His shot will improve.

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Harden would be terrific. Frank is not a distributor. He just gives up the ball.

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