2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 3)

[mpharris36]

I think odds are greater that we will try to trade up then trade back. But as Hezi said, really hard to predict until the order shakes out.

problem is there is no Luka in this class. I would be leary of moving future 1sts for any of these guys because I honestly don't see too much separation from the top 10 prospects.

[3toheadmelo]

I understand that he’s a better overall talent but then we’d have to move Mitch and start building around Wiseman, a center. It’s like having Embiid who the Sixers are taking about trading.

Nuggets seem to be doing just fine with Jokic. So are the Lakers with AD. Bucks also building around Giannis, another big man. Miami Heat with Bam... etc. Lots of winning teams have great big men.

Trade Mitch for a point guard and draft Wiseman.

But Jokic is the teams best playmaker (wiseman isn't that)

AD is the best defensive big in the game (wiseman won't ever be near that)

Giannis is a forward (who the whole offense runs through as a pick and roll ball handler) wiseman isn't that.

I see why you like Wiseman so much especially since you like Ayton. I think Wiseman at his best can put up Ayton type numbers. And if he improves defensively like Ayton did he can be good. But is that how you build a winner in the NBA? Not sure.

I dont see why not. Not too long ago the Spurs was winning with Tim Duncan. Mavs with Dirk. Yes the NBA has changed but it shows it's possible to win with big men. But it really comes down to the supporting cast. If you have a great supporting cast surrounding your best player then really it shouldn't be a problem. Everybody says that big men are irrelavant in the league but yet the Rockets have yet to win a championship playing that way.

Also the Suns played like a 43 win team with Ayton on the court which is pretty good considering it's only his 2nd year in the league. On top of that the Suns have a nice core. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up being one of the top teams in the league sooner than later. Booker and Ayton has one of the top net ratings in the league. I think it was actually the best if I remember correctly. We can do something like that with RJ and Wiseman.

[3toheadmelo]

Probably out of those 6:

tier 1:
Okongwu or Hayes (top tier of that group) - depending on team need (I think both have the highest ceilings)

tier 2:
Haliburton or Okoro - i think both guys have glue guy floors with the potential to be better depending if they can contribute more on offense

tier 3:
Toppin and Anthony - Toppin I don't see as a great transition to the NBA. The scoring PF doesn't really have great value in the NBA especially if you don't really defend the paint. Cole Anthony is kinda a unkown for me. He's got a lot of talent but his lack of effeciency and vision/playmaking for a point scare the sh*t out of me because RJ struggles from the same thing so having two guys like that would be tough to play with.

But I can see anyone that can make a case for any of the 6 like you said. They are all grouped together.

Scoring PF's do have some value. Like John Collins, Lauri Markannen..etc. You just gotta make sure you have a C who can protect the rim.

Obi and John Collins are the exact same age...that doesn't scare you at all?

John Collins is going into his 4th year in the NBA...Obi was beasting kids at Dayton. Will that fully translate?

also those guys need to play with playmakers. Collins numbers sky rocketed with Trae Young there. Lauri has had a horrible down year with no PG on his team. They are reliant on others and the NBA has gone away with 2 traditional bigs playing together.

So get a point guard with another pick or sign/trade for one in the offseason. Or draft one next year. Plenty of ways to get a point guard lol

His age doesn't worry me that much. He's 22. Pretty young.

[Deeeez Knicks]

I think odds are greater that we will try to trade up then trade back. But as Hezi said, really hard to predict until the order shakes out.

problem is there is no Luka in this class. I would be leary of moving future 1sts for any of these guys because I honestly don't see too much separation from the top 10 prospects.

I think a lot of teams see it that way so thats why it may be easier to move up. So there might not be too many teams interested in trading up and it might be tough to find a suitor that would pay something decent. Maybe more teams that would be looking to trade back in this one.

So if we had our eye on someone in particular like Ball and are really sold on him, I could see us being more aggressive and move up especially if he slips to 3 or 4. We do have a lot of picks including in this draft. May not cost as much as typical draft, depending. Ball is one of those polarizing prospects and his pops could put some pressure on too, where might be opportunities to move up for him.

[mpharris36]

Scoring PF's do have some value. Like John Collins, Lauri Markannen..etc. You just gotta make sure you have a C who can protect the rim.

Obi and John Collins are the exact same age...that doesn't scare you at all?

John Collins is going into his 4th year in the NBA...Obi was beasting kids at Dayton. Will that fully translate?

also those guys need to play with playmakers. Collins numbers sky rocketed with Trae Young there. Lauri has had a horrible down year with no PG on his team. They are reliant on others and the NBA has gone away with 2 traditional bigs playing together.

So get a point guard with another pick or sign/trade for one in the offseason. Or draft one next year. Plenty of ways to get a point guard lol

His age doesn't worry me that much. He's 22. Pretty young.

when the rest of his draft class is 3-4 years younger?

[blanko]

Just throwing ideas cus of the post article..
Could we package frank and our pick to move up if we drop to low?

Im just saying frank because dsj has little to no value now.

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Honestly not sure that Frank has that much more value. No thanks to the Knicks overall lack of player development and plan.

Well he is a proven defender. Also, im sorry, i used to be the biggest frank defender. He has to take alot of responsibility for his own play.
This is coming from a guy who loves frank, thinks he can be gp2020... he has to step up, he has to be more aggressive.

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[3toheadmelo]

Obi and John Collins are the exact same age...that doesn't scare you at all?

John Collins is going into his 4th year in the NBA...Obi was beasting kids at Dayton. Will that fully translate?

also those guys need to play with playmakers. Collins numbers sky rocketed with Trae Young there. Lauri has had a horrible down year with no PG on his team. They are reliant on others and the NBA has gone away with 2 traditional bigs playing together.

So get a point guard with another pick or sign/trade for one in the offseason. Or draft one next year. Plenty of ways to get a point guard lol

His age doesn't worry me that much. He's 22. Pretty young.

when the rest of his draft class is 3-4 years younger?

Doesn't mean anything to me. 22 is young

[blanko]

The fact that he can hit pull up jumpers off the dribble.. stepbacks.. and then be a dominating force in the paint is just terrifying. Better hope he's not in the east if the Knicks don't get him

Watch on YouTube

The guy is a low motor big man who settles for mid range jumpers. He aint the one.

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Spoken like someone who never watched him play live

How many games have you seen him play live? Multiple scouting reports say the same thing: that he isnt a high motor guy, that he settles for mid range jumpers, that he doesnt show tenacity.

The guy is a habitual fade away shooter in the post in highschool and college playing agaisnt smaller/less atheletic defenders.

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[HEZI]

Obi and John Collins are the exact same age...that doesn't scare you at all?

John Collins is going into his 4th year in the NBA...Obi was beasting kids at Dayton. Will that fully translate?

also those guys need to play with playmakers. Collins numbers sky rocketed with Trae Young there. Lauri has had a horrible down year with no PG on his team. They are reliant on others and the NBA has gone away with 2 traditional bigs playing together.

So get a point guard with another pick or sign/trade for one in the offseason. Or draft one next year. Plenty of ways to get a point guard lol

His age doesn't worry me that much. He's 22. Pretty young.

when the rest of his draft class is 3-4 years younger?

But he's more polished than some of the younger guys. Now if he looked just as raw as the younger guys and if he looked like somebody who will take a while to adjust to the NBA then I can see the point or if his ceiling just wasn't that high but that's not the case. He's got just as much potential to become an NBA star as the other guys in his class and he's more polished than some of them already. Realistically, who wants to draft another raw prospect that is a couple years away from being a couple years away? That's not just relative to age but a combination of age and current skills and likelihood of translating on the next level sooner than later.

[blanko]

Nuggets seem to be doing just fine with Jokic. So are the Lakers with AD. Bucks also building around Giannis, another big man. Miami Heat with Bam... etc. Lots of winning teams have great big men.

Trade Mitch for a point guard and draft Wiseman.

But Jokic is the teams best playmaker (wiseman isn't that)

AD is the best defensive big in the game (wiseman won't ever be near that)

Giannis is a forward (who the whole offense runs through as a pick and roll ball handler) wiseman isn't that.

I see why you like Wiseman so much especially since you like Ayton. I think Wiseman at his best can put up Ayton type numbers. And if he improves defensively like Ayton did he can be good. But is that how you build a winner in the NBA? Not sure.

I dont see why not. Not too long ago the Spurs was winning with Tim Duncan. Mavs with Dirk. Yes the NBA has changed but it shows it's possible to win with big men. But it really comes down to the supporting cast. If you have a great supporting cast surrounding your best player then really it shouldn't be a problem. Everybody says that big men are irrelavant in the league but yet the Rockets have yet to win a championship playing that way.

Also the Suns played like a 43 win team with Ayton on the court which is pretty good considering it's only his 2nd year in the league. On top of that the Suns have a nice core. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up being one of the top teams in the league sooner than later. Booker and Ayton has one of the top net ratings in the league. I think it was actually the best if I remember correctly. We can do something like that with RJ and Wiseman.

Werent the suns playing much better with the floor spacing baynes?

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[mpharris36]

So get a point guard with another pick or sign/trade for one in the offseason. Or draft one next year. Plenty of ways to get a point guard lol

His age doesn't worry me that much. He's 22. Pretty young.

when the rest of his draft class is 3-4 years younger?

Doesn't mean anything to me. 22 is young

not when they haven't played a single NBA game yet when his pears are into there 3rd and 4th year.

Your talking about the end of his rookie deal being 26 going on to 27 years old

when his pears could be 22 going onto 23...that is a huge difference for 2nd contract types which you hope is the case when drafting a lottery pick.

[mpharris36]

So get a point guard with another pick or sign/trade for one in the offseason. Or draft one next year. Plenty of ways to get a point guard lol

His age doesn't worry me that much. He's 22. Pretty young.

when the rest of his draft class is 3-4 years younger?

But he's more polished than some of the younger guys. Now if he looked just as raw as the younger guys and if he looked like somebody who will take a while to adjust to the NBA then I can see the point or if his ceiling just wasn't that high but that's not the case. He's got just as much potential to become an NBA star as the other guys in his class and he's more polished than some of them already. Realistically, who wants to draft another raw prospect that is a couple years away from being a couple years away? That's not just relative to age but a combination of age and current skills and likelihood of translating on the next level sooner than later.

The 2nd contract would be more what I'm worried about. Someone so reliant on athleticism getting a guy that will be close to 23 years old by the time he plays his first NBA game. His 2nd NBA contract is going to take him into his 30's. When other guys would be in there mid 20's.

That is a huge issue for me. Also whats his ceiling? He dominated the A-10? How many legit bigs are in the A-10?

He's a talented prospect but factor in he also brings nothing on the defensive end with his age...concerns me about his ceiling.

[3toheadmelo]

The guy is a low motor big man who settles for mid range jumpers. He aint the one.

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Spoken like someone who never watched him play live

How many games have you seen him play live? Multiple scouting reports say the same thing: that he isnt a high motor guy, that he settles for mid range jumpers, that he doesnt show tenacity.

The guy is a habitual fade away shooter in the post in highschool and college playing agaisnt smaller/less atheletic defenders.

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Yeah in high school he settled for mad jumpers. But in college he played with a high motor and dominated in the paint like he's supposed to do. He specifically said he wanted to work on his motor and he did exactly that in college. That shows he's coachable and is aware of his weaknesses. You're reading scouting reports from high school which is pretty irrelevant.

[3toheadmelo]

But Jokic is the teams best playmaker (wiseman isn't that)

AD is the best defensive big in the game (wiseman won't ever be near that)

Giannis is a forward (who the whole offense runs through as a pick and roll ball handler) wiseman isn't that.

I see why you like Wiseman so much especially since you like Ayton. I think Wiseman at his best can put up Ayton type numbers. And if he improves defensively like Ayton did he can be good. But is that how you build a winner in the NBA? Not sure.

I dont see why not. Not too long ago the Spurs was winning with Tim Duncan. Mavs with Dirk. Yes the NBA has changed but it shows it's possible to win with big men. But it really comes down to the supporting cast. If you have a great supporting cast surrounding your best player then really it shouldn't be a problem. Everybody says that big men are irrelavant in the league but yet the Rockets have yet to win a championship playing that way.

Also the Suns played like a 43 win team with Ayton on the court which is pretty good considering it's only his 2nd year in the league. On top of that the Suns have a nice core. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up being one of the top teams in the league sooner than later. Booker and Ayton has one of the top net ratings in the league. I think it was actually the best if I remember correctly. We can do something like that with RJ and Wiseman.

Werent the suns playing much better with the floor spacing baynes?

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Nope. If that was the case then they would've been a playoff team when Ayton got suspended and hurt. Baynes fell off after his hot start to the season. He is a good backup big though.

[3toheadmelo]

when the rest of his draft class is 3-4 years younger?

Doesn't mean anything to me. 22 is young

not when they haven't played a single NBA game yet when his pears are into there 3rd and 4th year.

Your talking about the end of his rookie deal being 26 going on to 27 years old

when his pears could be 22 going onto 23...that is a huge difference for 2nd contract types which you hope is the case when drafting a lottery pick.

Doesn't really matter when he's more polished than his peers. Brandon Clarke fell hard in the draft due to his age and now looks like a massive steal. Don't think teams will make that same mistake again with Obi.

[mpharris36]

i mean can we all be honest about wiseman? No one really knows.

He played 3...3 total college games (1 meaningful game) where he picked up 2 early fouls. So he played 1 meaningful half of college basketball (and he was pretty good in the second half) so anyone suggesting they have a full scouting report on him is probably reaching.

He is a complete unknown unless you were in a high school gym day in and day out watching him play. I can take him going up against 6'5 opposing centers of teams as legit competition.

[HarthorneWingo]

i mean can we all be honest about wiseman? No one really knows.

He played 3...3 total college games (1 meaningful game) where he picked up 2 early fouls. So he played 1 meaningful half of college basketball (and he was pretty good in the second half) so anyone suggesting they have a full scouting report on him is probably reaching.

He is a complete unknown unless you were in a high school gym day in and day out watching him play. I can take him going up against 6'5 opposing centers of teams as legit competition.

You think he'll participate in the NBA pre-draft workouts?

[mpharris36]

Doesn't mean anything to me. 22 is young

not when they haven't played a single NBA game yet when his pears are into there 3rd and 4th year.

Your talking about the end of his rookie deal being 26 going on to 27 years old

when his pears could be 22 going onto 23...that is a huge difference for 2nd contract types which you hope is the case when drafting a lottery pick.

Doesn't really matter when he's more polished than his peers. Brandon Clarke fell hard in the draft due to his age and now looks like a massive steal. Don't think teams will make that same mistake again with Obi.

there is a difference. Brandon Clarke being a steal at 21 is not the same as picking Brandon Clarke in the top 5.

I like Clarke I like him a lot as a player. But you are suggesting you are picking Clarke in the top 5 like you are Toppin?

[mpharris36]

i mean can we all be honest about wiseman? No one really knows.

He played 3...3 total college games (1 meaningful game) where he picked up 2 early fouls. So he played 1 meaningful half of college basketball (and he was pretty good in the second half) so anyone suggesting they have a full scouting report on him is probably reaching.

He is a complete unknown unless you were in a high school gym day in and day out watching him play. I can take him going up against 6'5 opposing centers of teams as legit competition.

You think he'll participate in the NBA pre-draft workouts?

who knows whats going to happen with all this COVID-19 sh*t.

Someone like Wiseman would benefit from more eyes on him...especially with his college career basically shut down before it even started.

[Deeeez Knicks]

when the rest of his draft class is 3-4 years younger?

But he's more polished than some of the younger guys. Now if he looked just as raw as the younger guys and if he looked like somebody who will take a while to adjust to the NBA then I can see the point or if his ceiling just wasn't that high but that's not the case. He's got just as much potential to become an NBA star as the other guys in his class and he's more polished than some of them already. Realistically, who wants to draft another raw prospect that is a couple years away from being a couple years away? That's not just relative to age but a combination of age and current skills and likelihood of translating on the next level sooner than later.

The 2nd contract would be more what I'm worried about. Someone so reliant on athleticism getting a guy that will be close to 23 years old by the time he plays his first NBA game. His 2nd NBA contract is going to take him into his 30's. When other guys would be in there mid 20's.

That is a huge issue for me. Also whats his ceiling? He dominated the A-10? How many legit bigs are in the A-10?

He's a talented prospect but factor in he also brings nothing on the defensive end with his age...concerns me about his ceiling.

I don't know how well his game will translate either. He scores a lot in the paint and on post-ups against younger/smaller players. He will have a tougher time with that in the NBA. Then his defense is a little questionable. I think between his age and game it does limit his upside a bit.

I do think he can be a solid player/stretch 4. But would rather take a chance on a G, like Hayes/Haliburton/Cole cause the upside would be a lot higher if they pan out for us.