Julius Randle IS a 'cornerstone' player

[cgf]

It doesn't make much sense to trade Julius unless some team makes a silly offer. He's too important to the rest of our core's development to ship out right now, and other teams are going to want to see this allstar level for longer before they're ready to pay an allstar price for him.

That could change if Toppin develops really well and teams do start making allstar-offers for him...but we've got quite a way to go before we reach that point.

[Richard4444]

I'm pro Randle. In a trade to a team who thinks he can be a winning player and gives us a nice haul. I'm anti our front office in charge of his next contract negotiation. I'm pretty clear about that. He's not a bad player based on this years work so that's progress. Randle decided to get in shape at age 26 and become a better player, good for him.

What type of haul?

Let's state our assumptions

* that he stays in shape and has turned the corner on that chapter of his career
* 3 point shooting settles at something like 35%, I think saying he'll shoot 40% for the rest of his career is a reach we both agree on
* the assumption that he'll play out next year for ~$20 million, which at current production even on a bad team is a value contract
* the team he's being traded to intends to sign him to his next deal, which would likely run from age 28 to 32 or 33

To make things simple lets assume we aren't taking back terrible contracts, that would add to our haul (John Wall / Westbrick / WIggins / DeAngelo Russell or some absolute cap wrecker).

I'd happily trade him for either a ~22-23 year old high end prospect (examples would be MPJ, Collins) and a mid 1st rounder (expected to be 10-15). Or 1 good (potentially 1-10) 1st rounder and a mid 1st rounder.

I'd probably take any of the top 8 or so from this past draft except Okongwu who might not be in the league in a year.

Do you really expect trading Randle get us MPJ + lottery pick or 2 lottery picks?

[3toheadmelo]

I'm pro Randle. In a trade to a team who thinks he can be a winning player and gives us a nice haul. I'm anti our front office in charge of his next contract negotiation. I'm pretty clear about that. He's not a bad player based on this years work so that's progress. Randle decided to get in shape at age 26 and become a better player, good for him.

What type of haul?

Let's state our assumptions

* that he stays in shape and has turned the corner on that chapter of his career
* 3 point shooting settles at something like 35%, I think saying he'll shoot 40% for the rest of his career is a reach we both agree on
* the assumption that he'll play out next year for ~$20 million, which at current production even on a bad team is a value contract
* the team he's being traded to intends to sign him to his next deal, which would likely run from age 28 to 32 or 33

To make things simple lets assume we aren't taking back terrible contracts, that would add to our haul (John Wall / Westbrick / WIggins / DeAngelo Russell or some absolute cap wrecker).

I'd happily trade him for either a ~22-23 year old high end prospect (examples would be MPJ, Collins) and a mid 1st rounder (expected to be 10-15). Or 1 good (potentially 1-10) 1st rounder and a mid 1st rounder.

I'd probably take any of the top 8 or so from this past draft except Okongwu who might not be in the league in a year.

I’d pass on all of that

[NewKnicks]

LeBron-lite means a worse player with a similar game/style-of-play; it says nothing about how much worse. This LeBron worship is getting obscene

LeBron worship? Are you serious? I still think MJ is number 1, but come on. I don't even like LeBron. But calling it 'worshipping' to talk about LeBron being so great is hilarious. And yes, LeBron lite would still be one of the best players to ever play the game. So would Michael Jordan lite.

That's a silly thing to say when we've had tons of MJ- & LeBron-lites who weren't even stars, nevermind one of the best to ever play the game. Those comps are about how a player plays, rather than how well they play that style.

That's not how it was stated by OP.

[god shammgod]

Watch on YouTube

[Dubious Handles]

Julius generates an open look nearly every half court set. But our bum ass shooters cant hit ****. He has to squeeze out wins not only through his offense but also through stellar defense, all while playing 40mpg in a competitive conference. Just trade RJ and Obi for good shooters and waive Payton. Playoffs are guaranteed and I think we can put on a good show and make it to the 2nd round.

[GONYK]

If he would play like last season, he would have trouble making more than 10-12M/y in his next contract. And he would have to play for a small market team.

I am still not sure if a big market contender would offer him a 4-year max/near-max contract if he were a UFA...

He's not getting near max contract next season from anyone now either, despite putting up all-star production.

I agree he is not in near max range for most teams (although I think a team like Hornets or Kings can overpay for him).

So, The Knicks picking his 20M TO is a win for him. That's why I think he is in a contract year.

It's not though. No matter how well he played, he wasn't getting a raise.

He now has to sustain this level of play for 2 straight seasons to secure a raise.

I mean, it's a win relative to his salary going down, but there is diminishing returns for him to be this productive for the same money he got last year.

[GONYK]

John Collins' production isn't comparable to Randle's at all.

TBH, neither is MPJ's.

Neither of those guys can be the main facilitator in your offense.

[god shammgod]

John Collins' production isn't comparable to Randle's at all.

TBH, neither is MPJ's.

Neither of those guys can be the main facilitator in your offense.

make those guys a number one option and those teams are winning 12 games for the year

[Oscirus]

I think a great part of the fans expect us to evolve from a trash team to a contender almost instantly by getting a transcendent player in FA or in the draft. They are against slow evolution.

I could not agree more. Our fanbase doesn't lack for passion, but patience is another matter entirely.

Go look at the BKN game thread and PG thread. If you ever wanted to see how ridiculously impatient this base is, that's it in a nutshell.

There's also massive impatience to wait for things to materialize through smart decision making.

Downplaying draft position, asset acquisition and youth development has been proven wrong time and again, yet it's always going to come up b/c ppl don't have the patience for the long term view. They want progress now.

For once we have kids pushing this forward, so both sides get something from our current position. Yet neither side is happy

What kids are pushing this forward? RJ's on the verge if hes not already out of the closing line up and iq is a few bad shooting games from falling out of the rotation. Everybody else getting significant burn are vets.

[NewKnicks]

Bro u buggin for no reason. Most ppl are saying if he continues at this level of play. He's showing no signs of slowing down or that this all-star season is an anomaly.

More importantly he's becoming a TEAM leader and a guy other players rally around and look up to. The LeBron comparisons are valid because he's running the offense, getting everyone else involved, leading the team in assists, shooting threes, taking it to the baja, getting to the foul line... All while leading the team and league in minutes played, hitting clutch free throws and clutch shots.

Randle is a DOG, bully bball at its finest.

We're 14-15 in the **** east. That's barely Kemba Walker or Nik Vucevic territory. Some of you are so thirsty for hope it's kind of sad. I guess for folks who started post 2002 or so it's different.

Ok? We have no talent around him. We're a gritty defensive team like the 90s Knicks.

Been watching since the 90's fam

I'd kill for Allan Houston on this team

We in no way compare to the 90's Knicks. That team was STACKED with talent.

[nedleeds]

What type of haul?

Let's state our assumptions

* that he stays in shape and has turned the corner on that chapter of his career
* 3 point shooting settles at something like 35%, I think saying he'll shoot 40% for the rest of his career is a reach we both agree on
* the assumption that he'll play out next year for ~$20 million, which at current production even on a bad team is a value contract
* the team he's being traded to intends to sign him to his next deal, which would likely run from age 28 to 32 or 33

To make things simple lets assume we aren't taking back terrible contracts, that would add to our haul (John Wall / Westbrick / WIggins / DeAngelo Russell or some absolute cap wrecker).

I'd happily trade him for either a ~22-23 year old high end prospect (examples would be MPJ, Collins) and a mid 1st rounder (expected to be 10-15). Or 1 good (potentially 1-10) 1st rounder and a mid 1st rounder.

I'd probably take any of the top 8 or so from this past draft except Okongwu who might not be in the league in a year.

Do you really expect trading Randle get us MPJ + lottery pick or 2 lottery picks?

No, but you'd snap take that trade right?

But there are a non-zero number of people on this board that don't think that's enough. Does that cement how far off from the league wide view some of the people who like Randle are on this board? All this as we soar to same effective record as the Bulls.

[Richard4444]

John Collins' production isn't comparable to Randle's at all.

TBH, neither is MPJ's.

Neither of those guys can be the main facilitator in your offense.

That's the point.

It's hard to see a contender team with Randle as the main facilitator. People are unsure if Randle can be so efficient being the second or third option.

Collins and MPJ are great third options.

[NewKnicks]

More talented than DWade? Wow man. Come on.

Why not? Seriously.

Wade played great defense for one. I hated that sonovabitch, but loved to watch him play. Booker is one helluva offensive player, but Wade is on another level entirely... he’s the 3rd greatest SG of all time. I doubt Booker gets anywhere near top 10 with guys like Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Harden, McGrady, Ray, Drexler, Klay, Vince, Iverson, Reggie, etc above him.

I'm going to continue to hold down the fort in here in regards to the last gen of players. I'm thinking a lot on here are younger, thus they feel that what they currently see with their eyes has to be better than what happened in the past.

Those of us who have been around for some time know the difference. Booker is great, yes. But to suggest he's more talented than DWade does not do Wade any justice at all. Next I'll be hearing that Pippen was so overrated because he played with Michael. I've heard that on here a few times. That's like saying AD is so overrated because he plays with LeBron.

[nedleeds]

I could not agree more. Our fanbase doesn't lack for passion, but patience is another matter entirely.

Go look at the BKN game thread and PG thread. If you ever wanted to see how ridiculously impatient this base is, that's it in a nutshell.

There's also massive impatience to wait for things to materialize through smart decision making.

Downplaying draft position, asset acquisition and youth development has been proven wrong time and again, yet it's always going to come up b/c ppl don't have the patience for the long term view. They want progress now.

For once we have kids pushing this forward, so both sides get something from our current position. Yet neither side is happy

What kids are pushing this forward? RJ's on the verge if hes not already out of the closing line up and iq is a few bad shooting games from falling out of the rotation. Everybody else getting significant burn are vets.

Only thing the kids are pushing is the theragun into their thighs on the **** bench. But I'd ask pushing what forward? We basically have the same trash record as the Bulls. We aren't .500 in a train wreck terrible East. AND we're doing this with NO lost games to COVID. So we have a bad record and have had the best covid luck in the league basically.

[NewKnicks]

Why not? Seriously.

Wade played great defense for one. I hated that sonovabitch, but loved to watch him play. Booker is one helluva offensive player, but Wade is on another level entirely... he’s the 3rd greatest SG of all time. I doubt Booker gets anywhere near top 10 with guys like Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Harden, McGrady, Ray, Drexler, Klay, Vince, Iverson, Reggie, etc above him.

Do you think he's better than Klay Thompson, McGrady or Harden?

Are we talking about Wade or Booker? Wade played a completely different game than the 3 you listed. But yes, I do think Wade was better than those 3. Wade did everything those 3 can do but in one package. He could be a 3 point specialist when needed, he was an incredible finisher, and played better D than all 3. Wade did it all. Oh, and he won a few chips in the process too.

And this is coming from someone that hated that dude. I was never a fan of Miami. But respect for talent is respect for talent without goggles on.

[nedleeds]

John Collins' production isn't comparable to Randle's at all.

TBH, neither is MPJ's.

Neither of those guys can be the main facilitator in your offense.

That's the point.

It's hard to see a contender team with Randle as the main facilitator. People are unsure if Randle can be so efficient being the second or third option.

Collins and MPJ are great third options.

Agree, and they wouldn't be that here. Randle being the main facilitator gets you the 6th worst offensive rating in the league and a sub .500 record in a turd salad East. That's the point. Collins has shot 40% on high volume from 3 for two seasons. He's a great fit next to a defensive monster and rim roller like Mitch.

IQ
(A GOOD PICK THIS YEAR)
RJ
Collins
Mitch

or sub in MPJ ... sign me up. But neither of those teams would do that.

[GONYK]

John Collins' production isn't comparable to Randle's at all.

TBH, neither is MPJ's.

Neither of those guys can be the main facilitator in your offense.

That's the point.

It's hard to see a contender team with Randle as the main facilitator. People are unsure if Randle can be so efficient being the second or third option.

Collins and MPJ are great third options.

Why are we talking about contenders right now?

Collins and MPJ are worse than Randle, no matter what role you put them in.

[nedleeds]

John Collins' production isn't comparable to Randle's at all.

TBH, neither is MPJ's.

Neither of those guys can be the main facilitator in your offense.

make those guys a number one option and those teams are winning 12 games for the year

12 games?

[GONYK]

John Collins' production isn't comparable to Randle's at all.

TBH, neither is MPJ's.

Neither of those guys can be the main facilitator in your offense.

That's the point.

It's hard to see a contender team with Randle as the main facilitator. People are unsure if Randle can be so efficient being the second or third option.

Collins and MPJ are great third options.

Agree, and they wouldn't be that here. Randle being the main facilitator gets you the 6th worst offensive rating in the league and a sub .500 record in a turd salad East. That's the point. Collins has shot 40% on high volume from 3 for two seasons. He's a great fit next to a defensive monster and rim roller like Mitch.

IQ
(A GOOD PICK THIS YEAR)
RJ
Collins
Mitch

or sub in MPJ ... sign me up. But neither of those teams would do that.

No, surrounding Randle with terrible shooters gets you that.

MPJ and Collins don't fix that. The ceiling of the team is lower with those players, even if we are comparing all 3 players as third options.