2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3

[stuporman]

All these people saying Knicks won't keep multiple picks because Thibs won't play two rookies while watching a winning record team coached by Thibs playing two rookies....

If starting RJ & Mitch, while consistently playing IQ more than Elf down the stretch of a playoff run, doesn't prove that Thibs hates kids; then I just don't know what will...

We may not always see the reasoning behind his choices or the intricacies in his method of madness but one thing is clear, he plays the guys who he thinks help the team win games regardless of age or contract and the results are evidence he has some insight to it that we might not quite get.

[fatalogic]

I gotta admit it's still really strange being in May and having to stroll to the bottom of the mock to find the Knicks pick.

[jvsimonetti0514]

Read on Twitter

Not exactly super important for us cuz we're not a lottery team but here's some red flags of all the potential lottery picks.

[jvsimonetti0514]

I gotta admit it's still really strange being in May and having to stroll to the bottom of the mock to find the Knicks pick.

usually this thread is popping every year but now we have no need for it since were a playoff team

[NewKnicks]

https://theathletic.com/2554168/2021/05/06/2021-nba-mock-draft-4-0-davion-mitchell-josh-giddey-jump-into-top-10-plus-player-and-team-fits/

The Athletic's new mock. They do a really good job breaking down players. Kudo's to them.

Edit: Should have taken 30 seconds to check first if this was posted already.

Not surprisingly, as some of us on here have discussed for a long time, he projects all 4 top picks as future All-Star's, with Kominga being a 'maybe'.

At six he's got my guy Scottie Barnes. Love that kid. I think he falls in the 'potential future All-Star' category as well. Hopefully he gets with a good shooting coach who helps improve his form and technique (which I think he'll be able to do). He doesn't get a lot of elevation on his shot, and it's a bit stiff. But I think when the professional coaches get to work on him he can make some corrections and improve.

Barnes is a point-forward type player who can bring the ball up the court. He has an incredible 7'2 wingspan, and can guard 1-5 (at potentially an elite level). He's a playmaker at 6'9 and can really dish the ball. He plays with a passion you don't see from a lot of players. He plays to win, not rack up stats. He's a dog. Similar to Suggs in that regard. He's built to be a big wing in the league. Adept passing skills as well. The thing about him is he does everything else well, so even if his shot is not falling he's going to be able to impact games. With the skill set he has, he'll be around this league for a long time. I don't get the unnecessary bashing of him on here. He'll be a fan favorite wherever he ends up.

I won't spoil who the Knicks take if you'd like to take your time flipping through it before getting to the picks.

How will he contribute offensively, if teams will give him the Payton treatment? Barnes is a complete non-shooter at the moment. And to me, there are not many signs that it'll change in the near future. His passing - his only good offensive skill atm - will be neglected in the half-court completely. That's why I don't see All-Star Potential. Like what else does he do offensively on a level where you may think he has this upside? He can't shoot, he can't create his own shot and while he's not a bad finisher, he definitely isn't a great one.

Yes, he'll be a very good defender in the league, no doubt about that. But he isn't a good rim protector yet. And one might wonder how much potential in this regard he'll have, because amongst other things, he isn't the greatest vertical athlete. So to maximize him, you'd probably need to have a shooting rim protector + all the shooting you can get from the other positions on a team. So in my eyes, Rookie contract Barnes has only value to a handful of teams.

Don't get me wrong, Barnes isn't a bad player per se. I simply don't like his fit with us. We won't go that route, and that'll be the right decision, but if you wanna go for a raw wing with defensive versatility, then Garuba's the pick, and not Barnes.

If the draft would be tomorrow, I'd probably lean Springer btw. He's my favourite combo G of the draft besides Mitchell. Why? Because he's by far the best defender of the group (minus Mitchell ofc) and to me he's shown plenty playmaking flashes. Couple that with his youth and the fact that Tennessees Roster as well as their offense weren't the best circumstances for him, I feel like in a few years people will wonder why he went so low if he should go in the late teens as most mocks predict at the moment.

Were RJ Barrett or Jaylen Brown 'complete non-shooters'? Can RJ create his own shots?

Brown shot 7 percentage points worse than Barnes from 2 (43%), and shot 2 percentage points higher from 3. RJ shot 30% from 3 at Duke, and only shot 66% from the line (Brown shot 65%). Why can't Barnes improve similarly to those two?

He's being put at the 6th slot (in a lot of mocks) behind 5 potential NBA All-Stars for a reason. And before anyone says, 'who cares about mocks!' I watched so many college basketball games this year (including FSU games) so I come to these conclusions based on my eyes, knowledge and experience evaluating players. Also, mocks reflect what GM's/scouts are feeling as well. That's why most of the good mocks nail the picks (although there usually are some risers/fallers on draft day) as it gets closer to draft day.

In regards to numbers totals with his stats (Pts., RBs, Assist). Yes, they are low. But so were Brown's (at Cal of all schools). People have to understand that Leonard Hamilton at FSU plays team ball, and no one player will be allowed to be 'the man'. Players don't put up monster numbers at FSU. it's impossible in Leonard's system.

Barnes and Payton are not a good comparison. Barnes will be put in much different positions on the court. He's not going to hang out in the corners waiting to shoot 3's (like Obi) His skillset is too valuable to put him in that role.

Plus, the kid is 19 years old. You act like he has no chance to get a lot better with NBA coaching.

The Knicks will not have a chance at drafting him, so I just posted my thoughts on his player profile. I like the kid a lot and I'm very excited about his future. Can't wait to see his progression after NBA coaches get a hold of him. The sky is the limit. If others don't like him, that's cool too. He's not a good fit on our lack of shooting current roster anyway. We need more shooters. A lot of them.

Springer?? Talk about a project. He has a chance to be good, but not for 5 more years. I like him, don't get me wrong, but he would be a really poor choice to add onto the Knicks roster. Knicks are trying to win now and don't have time for multiple year projects.

[3toheadmelo]

wow bouknight dropped again in DX's big board. now #20

this is my ideal draft

Knicks pick: James Bouknight
Dallas pick: Charles Bassey
2nd round pick: Bones Hyland
2-way contract/g league: David Duke

[Celo]

Spoiler:

https://theathletic.com/2554168/2021/05/06/2021-nba-mock-draft-4-0-davion-mitchell-josh-giddey-jump-into-top-10-plus-player-and-team-fits/

The Athletic's new mock. They do a really good job breaking down players. Kudo's to them.

Edit: Should have taken 30 seconds to check first if this was posted already.

Not surprisingly, as some of us on here have discussed for a long time, he projects all 4 top picks as future All-Star's, with Kominga being a 'maybe'.

At six he's got my guy Scottie Barnes. Love that kid. I think he falls in the 'potential future All-Star' category as well. Hopefully he gets with a good shooting coach who helps improve his form and technique (which I think he'll be able to do). He doesn't get a lot of elevation on his shot, and it's a bit stiff. But I think when the professional coaches get to work on him he can make some corrections and improve.

Barnes is a point-forward type player who can bring the ball up the court. He has an incredible 7'2 wingspan, and can guard 1-5 (at potentially an elite level). He's a playmaker at 6'9 and can really dish the ball. He plays with a passion you don't see from a lot of players. He plays to win, not rack up stats. He's a dog. Similar to Suggs in that regard. He's built to be a big wing in the league. Adept passing skills as well. The thing about him is he does everything else well, so even if his shot is not falling he's going to be able to impact games. With the skill set he has, he'll be around this league for a long time. I don't get the unnecessary bashing of him on here. He'll be a fan favorite wherever he ends up.

I won't spoil who the Knicks take if you'd like to take your time flipping through it before getting to the picks.

How will he contribute offensively, if teams will give him the Payton treatment? Barnes is a complete non-shooter at the moment. And to me, there are not many signs that it'll change in the near future. His passing - his only good offensive skill atm - will be neglected in the half-court completely. That's why I don't see All-Star Potential. Like what else does he do offensively on a level where you may think he has this upside? He can't shoot, he can't create his own shot and while he's not a bad finisher, he definitely isn't a great one.

Yes, he'll be a very good defender in the league, no doubt about that. But he isn't a good rim protector yet. And one might wonder how much potential in this regard he'll have, because amongst other things, he isn't the greatest vertical athlete. So to maximize him, you'd probably need to have a shooting rim protector + all the shooting you can get from the other positions on a team. So in my eyes, Rookie contract Barnes has only value to a handful of teams.

Don't get me wrong, Barnes isn't a bad player per se. I simply don't like his fit with us. We won't go that route, and that'll be the right decision, but if you wanna go for a raw wing with defensive versatility, then Garuba's the pick, and not Barnes.

If the draft would be tomorrow, I'd probably lean Springer btw. He's my favourite combo G of the draft besides Mitchell. Why? Because he's by far the best defender of the group (minus Mitchell ofc) and to me he's shown plenty playmaking flashes. Couple that with his youth and the fact that Tennessees Roster as well as their offense weren't the best circumstances for him, I feel like in a few years people will wonder why he went so low if he should go in the late teens as most mocks predict at the moment.

Were RJ Barrett or Jaylen Brown 'complete non-shooters'? Can RJ create his own shots?

Brown shot 7 percentage points worse than Barnes from 2 (43%), and shot 2 percentage points higher from 3. RJ shot 30% from 3 at Duke, and only shot 66% from the line (Brown shot 65%). Why can't Barnes improve similarly to those two?

He's being put at the 6th slot (in a lot of mocks) behind 5 potential NBA All-Stars for a reason. And before anyone says, 'who cares about mocks!' I watched so many college basketball games this year (including FSU games) so I come to these conclusions based on my eyes, knowledge and experience evaluating players. Also, mocks reflect what GM's/scouts are feeling as well. That's why most of the good mocks nail the picks (although there usually are some risers/fallers on draft day) as it gets closer to draft day.

In regards to numbers totals with his stats (Pts., RBs, Assist). Yes, they are low. But so were Brown's (at Cal of all schools). People have to understand that Leonard Hamilton at FSU plays team ball, and no one player will be allowed to be 'the man'. Players don't put up monster numbers at FSU. it's impossible in Leonard's system.

Barnes and Payton are not a good comparison. Barnes will be put in much different positions on the court. He's not going to hang out in the corners waiting to shoot 3's (like Obi) His skillset is too valuable to put him in that role.

Plus, the kid is 19 years old. You act like he has no chance to get a lot better with NBA coaching.

The Knicks will not have a chance at drafting him, so I just posted my thoughts on his player profile. I like the kid a lot and I'm very excited about his future. Can't wait to see his progression after NBA coaches get a hold of him. The sky is the limit. If others don't like him, that's cool too. He's not a good fit on our lack of shooting current roster anyway. We need more shooters. A lot of them.

Springer?? Talk about a project. He has a chance to be good, but not for 5 more years. I like him, don't get me wrong, but he would be a really poor choice to add onto the Knicks roster. Knicks are trying to win now and don't have time for multiple year projects.

Well first of all, you can't compare them volumewise. Barnes shot 40 3pointers, Brown Shot about 100 and RJ shot more than 230. So no, they weren't non-shooters, they were bad shooters. And yes, RJ can create his own shot, . Maybe not behind the 3pt line yet, but definitely inside the arc.

I'm not saying he can't improve like them. I just don't think it's realistic to expect an outlier development like that. If that would be the case, why do we not see more bad shooters who have an otherwise complete game go higher in drafts? Because you can't expect everyone of them to become magically a good shooter. Is it possible? Of course! Is it probable? No, it's not.

Mocks right now are worth ****. Like we don't even have a draft order yet. The only thing that I see set in stone is the top 4 probably. Other than that it's wide open and will depend on many things like order, pre draft process etc. Look at last year's draft. After the top 3, the next 2 players that have mostly been mocked at 4&5 have been Hali and Deni. And look where they landed in the end. Ofc in the case of Hali he was taken was too late, but it doesn't matter for my point. At this time of the year, mocks aren't worth that much. They can give you a certain feeling, where a player may go, sure. But there's still so much time left for things to happen. I mean who had Patrick Williams going 4th in May last year? Probably close to no one.

Me, personally, I don't care about raw numbers. Like you said, they don't say much if you don't have the right context. That's why I don't care about his raw rebound numbers or whatever.

So how would you use Barnes in our offense? I'm curious about that answer. Obi's game isn't standing in the corner and shooting C&S 3s, nonetheless Thibs makes him do that. Why should it be different with Barnes? Everyone knows Obi's biggest strength is him being a good PnR player, yet Thibs doesn't run any specifically for him.

If never said he can't get better. As you mentioned Brown: It took him his whole rookie contract to become a reliable shooter from 3 (tho he somehow had a good sophomore year and regressed back in his 3rd year). And that's what I said: Rookie Contract Barnes will have a hard time because of his inability of shooting the 3. I don't think that is farfetched to say.

One thing I'd like to add: Barnes played like his whole career for USA youth teams, played at Monteverde HS and now at FSU. I don't think there are many players that were as blessed as him with good coaching over the years. And yes, while NBA coaches are definitely a class of their own, it's not like Barnes hadn't had the best circumstances a prospect literally can have.

Springer right now is at worst a rotational 3&D player. More D than 3, I'll give you that. But saying he won't produce for 5 years is pure blasphemy. I'm pretty confident he'd easily be in our rotation next year, especially if we should lose Burks. Will that be the best for his development? Maybe not. But in my eyes you can plug him in and play him, whereas Barnes needs certain circumstances to contribute positively on offense. And just like most rookies are inconsistent, so probably would be Springer, no denying in that.

Look, I'm not saying your take is wrong and mine is right or whatever. You like Barnes as a prospect and that's totally fine! I just wanted to give you my pov of him as a prospect. And in the end, were here to discuss, right?

[cgf]

Springer is a mini-RJ. If he works as hard as RJ, he'll be a good starter sooner than later.

[cgf]

I gotta admit it's still really strange being in May and having to stroll to the bottom of the mock to find the Knicks pick.

usually this thread is popping every year but now we have no need for it since were a playoff team

One perk of watching my favorite prospect slide into the late teens every year is that this season we might actually end up with my guy

[NewKnicks]

Spoiler:

How will he contribute offensively, if teams will give him the Payton treatment? Barnes is a complete non-shooter at the moment. And to me, there are not many signs that it'll change in the near future. His passing - his only good offensive skill atm - will be neglected in the half-court completely. That's why I don't see All-Star Potential. Like what else does he do offensively on a level where you may think he has this upside? He can't shoot, he can't create his own shot and while he's not a bad finisher, he definitely isn't a great one.

Yes, he'll be a very good defender in the league, no doubt about that. But he isn't a good rim protector yet. And one might wonder how much potential in this regard he'll have, because amongst other things, he isn't the greatest vertical athlete. So to maximize him, you'd probably need to have a shooting rim protector + all the shooting you can get from the other positions on a team. So in my eyes, Rookie contract Barnes has only value to a handful of teams.

Don't get me wrong, Barnes isn't a bad player per se. I simply don't like his fit with us. We won't go that route, and that'll be the right decision, but if you wanna go for a raw wing with defensive versatility, then Garuba's the pick, and not Barnes.

If the draft would be tomorrow, I'd probably lean Springer btw. He's my favourite combo G of the draft besides Mitchell. Why? Because he's by far the best defender of the group (minus Mitchell ofc) and to me he's shown plenty playmaking flashes. Couple that with his youth and the fact that Tennessees Roster as well as their offense weren't the best circumstances for him, I feel like in a few years people will wonder why he went so low if he should go in the late teens as most mocks predict at the moment.

Were RJ Barrett or Jaylen Brown 'complete non-shooters'? Can RJ create his own shots?

Brown shot 7 percentage points worse than Barnes from 2 (43%), and shot 2 percentage points higher from 3. RJ shot 30% from 3 at Duke, and only shot 66% from the line (Brown shot 65%). Why can't Barnes improve similarly to those two?

He's being put at the 6th slot (in a lot of mocks) behind 5 potential NBA All-Stars for a reason. And before anyone says, 'who cares about mocks!' I watched so many college basketball games this year (including FSU games) so I come to these conclusions based on my eyes, knowledge and experience evaluating players. Also, mocks reflect what GM's/scouts are feeling as well. That's why most of the good mocks nail the picks (although there usually are some risers/fallers on draft day) as it gets closer to draft day.

In regards to numbers totals with his stats (Pts., RBs, Assist). Yes, they are low. But so were Brown's (at Cal of all schools). People have to understand that Leonard Hamilton at FSU plays team ball, and no one player will be allowed to be 'the man'. Players don't put up monster numbers at FSU. it's impossible in Leonard's system.

Barnes and Payton are not a good comparison. Barnes will be put in much different positions on the court. He's not going to hang out in the corners waiting to shoot 3's (like Obi) His skillset is too valuable to put him in that role.

Plus, the kid is 19 years old. You act like he has no chance to get a lot better with NBA coaching.

The Knicks will not have a chance at drafting him, so I just posted my thoughts on his player profile. I like the kid a lot and I'm very excited about his future. Can't wait to see his progression after NBA coaches get a hold of him. The sky is the limit. If others don't like him, that's cool too. He's not a good fit on our lack of shooting current roster anyway. We need more shooters. A lot of them.

Springer?? Talk about a project. He has a chance to be good, but not for 5 more years. I like him, don't get me wrong, but he would be a really poor choice to add onto the Knicks roster. Knicks are trying to win now and don't have time for multiple year projects.

Well first of all, you can't compare them volumewise. Barnes shot 40 3pointers, Brown Shot about 100 and RJ shot more than 230. So no, they weren't non-shooters, they were bad shooters. And yes, RJ can create his own shot, . Maybe not behind the 3pt line yet, but definitely inside the arc.

I'm not saying he can't improve like them. I just don't think it's realistic to expect an outlier development like that. If that would be the case, why do we not see more bad shooters who have an otherwise complete game go higher in drafts? Because you can't expect everyone of them to become magically a good shooter. Is it possible? Of course! Is it probable? No, it's not.

Mocks right now are worth ****. Like we don't even have a draft order yet. The only thing that I see set in stone is the top 4 probably. Other than that it's wide open and will depend on many things like order, pre draft process etc. Look at last year's draft. After the top 3, the next 2 players that have mostly been mocked at 4&5 have been Hali and Deni. And look where they landed in the end. Ofc in the case of Hali he was taken was too late, but it doesn't matter for my point. At this time of the year, mocks aren't worth that much. They can give you a certain feeling, where a player may go, sure. But there's still so much time left for things to happen. I mean who had Patrick Williams going 4th in May last year? Probably close to no one.

Me, personally, I don't care about raw numbers. Like you said, they don't say much if you don't have the right context. That's why I don't care about his raw rebound numbers or whatever.

So how would you use Barnes in our offense? I'm curious about that answer. Obi's game isn't standing in the corner and shooting C&S 3s, nonetheless Thibs makes him do that. Why should it be different with Barnes? Everyone knows Obi's biggest strength is him being a good PnR player, yet Thibs doesn't run any specifically for him.

If never said he can't get better. As you mentioned Brown: It took him his whole rookie contract to become a reliable shooter from 3 (tho he somehow had a good sophomore year and regressed back in his 3rd year). And that's what I said: Rookie Contract Barnes will have a hard time because of his inability of shooting the 3. I don't think that is farfetched to say.

One thing I'd like to add: Barnes played like his whole career for USA youth teams, played at Monteverde HS and now at FSU. I don't think there are many players that were as blessed as him with good coaching over the years. And yes, while NBA coaches are definitely a class of their own, it's not like Barnes hadn't had the best circumstances a prospect literally can have.

Springer right now is at worst a rotational 3&D player. More D than 3, I'll give you that. But saying he won't produce for 5 years is pure blasphemy. I'm pretty confident he'd easily be in our rotation next year, especially if we should lose Burks. Will that be the best for his development? Maybe not. But in my eyes you can plug him in and play him, whereas Barnes needs certain circumstances to contribute positively on offense. And just like most rookies are inconsistent, so probably would be Springer, no denying in that.

Look, I'm not saying your take is wrong and mine is right or whatever. You like Barnes as a prospect and that's totally fine! I just wanted to give you my pov of him as a prospect. And in the end, were here to discuss, right?

Barnes will be a top 10 pick. Believe me or not, but he will be.

EDIT: Sorry for the multiples posts. Early drinking on a Friday will do that to ya..

[NewKnicks]

Spoiler:

Were RJ Barrett or Jaylen Brown 'complete non-shooters'? Can RJ create his own shots?

Brown shot 7 percentage points worse than Barnes from 2 (43%), and shot 2 percentage points higher from 3. RJ shot 30% from 3 at Duke, and only shot 66% from the line (Brown shot 65%). Why can't Barnes improve similarly to those two?

He's being put at the 6th slot (in a lot of mocks) behind 5 potential NBA All-Stars for a reason. And before anyone says, 'who cares about mocks!' I watched so many college basketball games this year (including FSU games) so I come to these conclusions based on my eyes, knowledge and experience evaluating players. Also, mocks reflect what GM's/scouts are feeling as well. That's why most of the good mocks nail the picks (although there usually are some risers/fallers on draft day) as it gets closer to draft day.

In regards to numbers totals with his stats (Pts., RBs, Assist). Yes, they are low. But so were Brown's (at Cal of all schools). People have to understand that Leonard Hamilton at FSU plays team ball, and no one player will be allowed to be 'the man'. Players don't put up monster numbers at FSU. it's impossible in Leonard's system.

Barnes and Payton are not a good comparison. Barnes will be put in much different positions on the court. He's not going to hang out in the corners waiting to shoot 3's (like Obi) His skillset is too valuable to put him in that role.

Plus, the kid is 19 years old. You act like he has no chance to get a lot better with NBA coaching.

The Knicks will not have a chance at drafting him, so I just posted my thoughts on his player profile. I like the kid a lot and I'm very excited about his future. Can't wait to see his progression after NBA coaches get a hold of him. The sky is the limit. If others don't like him, that's cool too. He's not a good fit on our lack of shooting current roster anyway. We need more shooters. A lot of them.

Springer?? Talk about a project. He has a chance to be good, but not for 5 more years. I like him, don't get me wrong, but he would be a really poor choice to add onto the Knicks roster. Knicks are trying to win now and don't have time for multiple year projects.

Well first of all, you can't compare them volumewise. Barnes shot 40 3pointers, Brown Shot about 100 and RJ shot more than 230. So no, they weren't non-shooters, they were bad shooters. And yes, RJ can create his own shot, . Maybe not behind the 3pt line yet, but definitely inside the arc.

I'm not saying he can't improve like them. I just don't think it's realistic to expect an outlier development like that. If that would be the case, why do we not see more bad shooters who have an otherwise complete game go higher in drafts? Because you can't expect everyone of them to become magically a good shooter. Is it possible? Of course! Is it probable? No, it's not.

Mocks right now are worth ****. Like we don't even have a draft order yet. The only thing that I see set in stone is the top 4 probably. Other than that it's wide open and will depend on many things like order, pre draft process etc. Look at last year's draft. After the top 3, the next 2 players that have mostly been mocked at 4&5 have been Hali and Deni. And look where they landed in the end. Ofc in the case of Hali he was taken was too late, but it doesn't matter for my point. At this time of the year, mocks aren't worth that much. They can give you a certain feeling, where a player may go, sure. But there's still so much time left for things to happen. I mean who had Patrick Williams going 4th in May last year? Probably close to no one.

Me, personally, I don't care about raw numbers. Like you said, they don't say much if you don't have the right context. That's why I don't care about his raw rebound numbers or whatever.

So how would you use Barnes in our offense? I'm curious about that answer. Obi's game isn't standing in the corner and shooting C&S 3s, nonetheless Thibs makes him do that. Why should it be different with Barnes? Everyone knows Obi's biggest strength is him being a good PnR player, yet Thibs doesn't run any specifically for him.

If never said he can't get better. As you mentioned Brown: It took him his whole rookie contract to become a reliable shooter from 3 (tho he somehow had a good sophomore year and regressed back in his 3rd year). And that's what I said: Rookie Contract Barnes will have a hard time because of his inability of shooting the 3. I don't think that is farfetched to say.

One thing I'd like to add: Barnes played like his whole career for USA youth teams, played at Monteverde HS and now at FSU. I don't think there are many players that were as blessed as him with good coaching over the years. And yes, while NBA coaches are definitely a class of their own, it's not like Barnes hadn't had the best circumstances a prospect literally can have.

Springer right now is at worst a rotational 3&D player. More D than 3, I'll give you that. But saying he won't produce for 5 years is pure blasphemy. I'm pretty confident he'd easily be in our rotation next year, especially if we should lose Burks. Will that be the best for his development? Maybe not. But in my eyes you can plug him in and play him, whereas Barnes needs certain circumstances to contribute positively on offense. And just like most rookies are inconsistent, so probably would be Springer, no denying in that.

Look, I'm not saying your take is wrong and mine is right or whatever. You like Barnes as a prospect and that's totally fine! I just wanted to give you my pov of him as a prospect. And in the end, were here to discuss, right?

Barnes will be a top 10 pick. Believe me or not, but he will be.

And whose to say that with more volume Barnes doesn't shoot better? That can go both ways.

You don't think Barnes can become a very productive offensive player in the league, yet you talk up a total project like Springer. Talk about a player who won't be producing for a while.. Springer is years away from making any substantial impact in the NBA.

You like your guy, I like mine. And I'm not even hating on Springer.. kid has a lot of talent. But he's much, much farther away from producing offensively in the NBA compared to Barnes.

[NewKnicks]

Spoiler:

How will he contribute offensively, if teams will give him the Payton treatment? Barnes is a complete non-shooter at the moment. And to me, there are not many signs that it'll change in the near future. His passing - his only good offensive skill atm - will be neglected in the half-court completely. That's why I don't see All-Star Potential. Like what else does he do offensively on a level where you may think he has this upside? He can't shoot, he can't create his own shot and while he's not a bad finisher, he definitely isn't a great one.

Yes, he'll be a very good defender in the league, no doubt about that. But he isn't a good rim protector yet. And one might wonder how much potential in this regard he'll have, because amongst other things, he isn't the greatest vertical athlete. So to maximize him, you'd probably need to have a shooting rim protector + all the shooting you can get from the other positions on a team. So in my eyes, Rookie contract Barnes has only value to a handful of teams.

Don't get me wrong, Barnes isn't a bad player per se. I simply don't like his fit with us. We won't go that route, and that'll be the right decision, but if you wanna go for a raw wing with defensive versatility, then Garuba's the pick, and not Barnes.

If the draft would be tomorrow, I'd probably lean Springer btw. He's my favourite combo G of the draft besides Mitchell. Why? Because he's by far the best defender of the group (minus Mitchell ofc) and to me he's shown plenty playmaking flashes. Couple that with his youth and the fact that Tennessees Roster as well as their offense weren't the best circumstances for him, I feel like in a few years people will wonder why he went so low if he should go in the late teens as most mocks predict at the moment.

Were RJ Barrett or Jaylen Brown 'complete non-shooters'? Can RJ create his own shots?

Brown shot 7 percentage points worse than Barnes from 2 (43%), and shot 2 percentage points higher from 3. RJ shot 30% from 3 at Duke, and only shot 66% from the line (Brown shot 65%). Why can't Barnes improve similarly to those two?

He's being put at the 6th slot (in a lot of mocks) behind 5 potential NBA All-Stars for a reason. And before anyone says, 'who cares about mocks!' I watched so many college basketball games this year (including FSU games) so I come to these conclusions based on my eyes, knowledge and experience evaluating players. Also, mocks reflect what GM's/scouts are feeling as well. That's why most of the good mocks nail the picks (although there usually are some risers/fallers on draft day) as it gets closer to draft day.

In regards to numbers totals with his stats (Pts., RBs, Assist). Yes, they are low. But so were Brown's (at Cal of all schools). People have to understand that Leonard Hamilton at FSU plays team ball, and no one player will be allowed to be 'the man'. Players don't put up monster numbers at FSU. it's impossible in Leonard's system.

Barnes and Payton are not a good comparison. Barnes will be put in much different positions on the court. He's not going to hang out in the corners waiting to shoot 3's (like Obi) His skillset is too valuable to put him in that role.

Plus, the kid is 19 years old. You act like he has no chance to get a lot better with NBA coaching.

The Knicks will not have a chance at drafting him, so I just posted my thoughts on his player profile. I like the kid a lot and I'm very excited about his future. Can't wait to see his progression after NBA coaches get a hold of him. The sky is the limit. If others don't like him, that's cool too. He's not a good fit on our lack of shooting current roster anyway. We need more shooters. A lot of them.

Springer?? Talk about a project. He has a chance to be good, but not for 5 more years. I like him, don't get me wrong, but he would be a really poor choice to add onto the Knicks roster. Knicks are trying to win now and don't have time for multiple year projects.

Well first of all, you can't compare them volumewise. Barnes shot 40 3pointers, Brown Shot about 100 and RJ shot more than 230. So no, they weren't non-shooters, they were bad shooters. And yes, RJ can create his own shot, . Maybe not behind the 3pt line yet, but definitely inside the arc.

I'm not saying he can't improve like them. I just don't think it's realistic to expect an outlier development like that. If that would be the case, why do we not see more bad shooters who have an otherwise complete game go higher in drafts? Because you can't expect everyone of them to become magically a good shooter. Is it possible? Of course! Is it probable? No, it's not.

Mocks right now are worth ****. Like we don't even have a draft order yet. The only thing that I see set in stone is the top 4 probably. Other than that it's wide open and will depend on many things like order, pre draft process etc. Look at last year's draft. After the top 3, the next 2 players that have mostly been mocked at 4&5 have been Hali and Deni. And look where they landed in the end. Ofc in the case of Hali he was taken was too late, but it doesn't matter for my point. At this time of the year, mocks aren't worth that much. They can give you a certain feeling, where a player may go, sure. But there's still so much time left for things to happen. I mean who had Patrick Williams going 4th in May last year? Probably close to no one.

Me, personally, I don't care about raw numbers. Like you said, they don't say much if you don't have the right context. That's why I don't care about his raw rebound numbers or whatever.

So how would you use Barnes in our offense? I'm curious about that answer. Obi's game isn't standing in the corner and shooting C&S 3s, nonetheless Thibs makes him do that. Why should it be different with Barnes? Everyone knows Obi's biggest strength is him being a good PnR player, yet Thibs doesn't run any specifically for him.

If never said he can't get better. As you mentioned Brown: It took him his whole rookie contract to become a reliable shooter from 3 (tho he somehow had a good sophomore year and regressed back in his 3rd year). And that's what I said: Rookie Contract Barnes will have a hard time because of his inability of shooting the 3. I don't think that is farfetched to say.

One thing I'd like to add: Barnes played like his whole career for USA youth teams, played at Monteverde HS and now at FSU. I don't think there are many players that were as blessed as him with good coaching over the years. And yes, while NBA coaches are definitely a class of their own, it's not like Barnes hadn't had the best circumstances a prospect literally can have.

Springer right now is at worst a rotational 3&D player. More D than 3, I'll give you that. But saying he won't produce for 5 years is pure blasphemy. I'm pretty confident he'd easily be in our rotation next year, especially if we should lose Burks. Will that be the best for his development? Maybe not. But in my eyes you can plug him in and play him, whereas Barnes needs certain circumstances to contribute positively on offense. And just like most rookies are inconsistent, so probably would be Springer, no denying in that.

Look, I'm not saying your take is wrong and mine is right or whatever. You like Barnes as a prospect and that's totally fine! I just wanted to give you my pov of him as a prospect. And in the end, were here to discuss, right?

Agree. I'm cool with your opinions. Just make sure to respect mine. I've seen these players play extensively, and I trust my evaluations. Doesn't mean I'll be right, though. Evaluating players in not an exact science (actually probably the opposite of it). In the end the best thing about all this talk is we'll get definitive answers to see who was right and who was not. I think Barnes is going to ball out.

I have a question for you.. let's say these mocks are accurate (along with my guarantee Barne's will go in the top 10). What are GM's seeing in him that you're clearly not? Why would they take a player who has no hope offensively in the top 10? Serious question.

How do you know if a players percentages are going to go up or down with more volume? You don't know. No one knows.
I don't know if he's ever going to be able to shoot all the way out to the 3. But he shot 50% inside the arc in his only year at FSU. He shot 7 points better than RJ did inside the arc, and RJ had a lot more volume. So what does that say to you?

You don't think Barnes can become a very productive offensive player in the league, yet you talk up a total project like Springer. Springer who won't be producing for a while. He's is years away from making any substantial impact in the NBA.

You like your guy, I like mine. And I'm not even hating on Springer.. kid has a lot of talent. But he's much, much farther away from producing offensively in the NBA compared to Barnes. Springer will be riding pine for a year or two. Or he'll get a role like Obi's.

And what school did Patrick Williams come from? That's going to matter too when GM's complete their evaluations.

I don't bet, but I'd bet a lot of money on Barnes going in the top 10. I will be right about that. We can both check in in a few months after the draft is over.

None of this matters (other than me liking the kid a lot) anyway. Knicks have no shot at him. I'll be posting evals of more players I like as we move forward. I love the draft process in general. Doesn't have to be Knicks related for me to be interested.

Plus, it's game time to I can't concentrate on this anymore.

[NewKnicks]

Spoiler:

How will he contribute offensively, if teams will give him the Payton treatment? Barnes is a complete non-shooter at the moment. And to me, there are not many signs that it'll change in the near future. His passing - his only good offensive skill atm - will be neglected in the half-court completely. That's why I don't see All-Star Potential. Like what else does he do offensively on a level where you may think he has this upside? He can't shoot, he can't create his own shot and while he's not a bad finisher, he definitely isn't a great one.

Yes, he'll be a very good defender in the league, no doubt about that. But he isn't a good rim protector yet. And one might wonder how much potential in this regard he'll have, because amongst other things, he isn't the greatest vertical athlete. So to maximize him, you'd probably need to have a shooting rim protector + all the shooting you can get from the other positions on a team. So in my eyes, Rookie contract Barnes has only value to a handful of teams.

Don't get me wrong, Barnes isn't a bad player per se. I simply don't like his fit with us. We won't go that route, and that'll be the right decision, but if you wanna go for a raw wing with defensive versatility, then Garuba's the pick, and not Barnes.

If the draft would be tomorrow, I'd probably lean Springer btw. He's my favourite combo G of the draft besides Mitchell. Why? Because he's by far the best defender of the group (minus Mitchell ofc) and to me he's shown plenty playmaking flashes. Couple that with his youth and the fact that Tennessees Roster as well as their offense weren't the best circumstances for him, I feel like in a few years people will wonder why he went so low if he should go in the late teens as most mocks predict at the moment.

Were RJ Barrett or Jaylen Brown 'complete non-shooters'? Can RJ create his own shots?

Brown shot 7 percentage points worse than Barnes from 2 (43%), and shot 2 percentage points higher from 3. RJ shot 30% from 3 at Duke, and only shot 66% from the line (Brown shot 65%). Why can't Barnes improve similarly to those two?

He's being put at the 6th slot (in a lot of mocks) behind 5 potential NBA All-Stars for a reason. And before anyone says, 'who cares about mocks!' I watched so many college basketball games this year (including FSU games) so I come to these conclusions based on my eyes, knowledge and experience evaluating players. Also, mocks reflect what GM's/scouts are feeling as well. That's why most of the good mocks nail the picks (although there usually are some risers/fallers on draft day) as it gets closer to draft day.

In regards to numbers totals with his stats (Pts., RBs, Assist). Yes, they are low. But so were Brown's (at Cal of all schools). People have to understand that Leonard Hamilton at FSU plays team ball, and no one player will be allowed to be 'the man'. Players don't put up monster numbers at FSU. it's impossible in Leonard's system.

Barnes and Payton are not a good comparison. Barnes will be put in much different positions on the court. He's not going to hang out in the corners waiting to shoot 3's (like Obi) His skillset is too valuable to put him in that role.

Plus, the kid is 19 years old. You act like he has no chance to get a lot better with NBA coaching.

The Knicks will not have a chance at drafting him, so I just posted my thoughts on his player profile. I like the kid a lot and I'm very excited about his future. Can't wait to see his progression after NBA coaches get a hold of him. The sky is the limit. If others don't like him, that's cool too. He's not a good fit on our lack of shooting current roster anyway. We need more shooters. A lot of them.

Springer?? Talk about a project. He has a chance to be good, but not for 5 more years. I like him, don't get me wrong, but he would be a really poor choice to add onto the Knicks roster. Knicks are trying to win now and don't have time for multiple year projects.

Well first of all, you can't compare them volumewise. Barnes shot 40 3pointers, Brown Shot about 100 and RJ shot more than 230. So no, they weren't non-shooters, they were bad shooters. And yes, RJ can create his own shot, . Maybe not behind the 3pt line yet, but definitely inside the arc.

I'm not saying he can't improve like them. I just don't think it's realistic to expect an outlier development like that. If that would be the case, why do we not see more bad shooters who have an otherwise complete game go higher in drafts? Because you can't expect everyone of them to become magically a good shooter. Is it possible? Of course! Is it probable? No, it's not.

Mocks right now are worth ****. Like we don't even have a draft order yet. The only thing that I see set in stone is the top 4 probably. Other than that it's wide open and will depend on many things like order, pre draft process etc. Look at last year's draft. After the top 3, the next 2 players that have mostly been mocked at 4&5 have been Hali and Deni. And look where they landed in the end. Ofc in the case of Hali he was taken was too late, but it doesn't matter for my point. At this time of the year, mocks aren't worth that much. They can give you a certain feeling, where a player may go, sure. But there's still so much time left for things to happen. I mean who had Patrick Williams going 4th in May last year? Probably close to no one.

Me, personally, I don't care about raw numbers. Like you said, they don't say much if you don't have the right context. That's why I don't care about his raw rebound numbers or whatever.

So how would you use Barnes in our offense? I'm curious about that answer. Obi's game isn't standing in the corner and shooting C&S 3s, nonetheless Thibs makes him do that. Why should it be different with Barnes? Everyone knows Obi's biggest strength is him being a good PnR player, yet Thibs doesn't run any specifically for him.

If never said he can't get better. As you mentioned Brown: It took him his whole rookie contract to become a reliable shooter from 3 (tho he somehow had a good sophomore year and regressed back in his 3rd year). And that's what I said: Rookie Contract Barnes will have a hard time because of his inability of shooting the 3. I don't think that is farfetched to say.

One thing I'd like to add: Barnes played like his whole career for USA youth teams, played at Monteverde HS and now at FSU. I don't think there are many players that were as blessed as him with good coaching over the years. And yes, while NBA coaches are definitely a class of their own, it's not like Barnes hadn't had the best circumstances a prospect literally can have.

Springer right now is at worst a rotational 3&D player. More D than 3, I'll give you that. But saying he won't produce for 5 years is pure blasphemy. I'm pretty confident he'd easily be in our rotation next year, especially if we should lose Burks. Will that be the best for his development? Maybe not. But in my eyes you can plug him in and play him, whereas Barnes needs certain circumstances to contribute positively on offense. And just like most rookies are inconsistent, so probably would be Springer, no denying in that.

Look, I'm not saying your take is wrong and mine is right or whatever. You like Barnes as a prospect and that's totally fine! I just wanted to give you my pov of him as a prospect. And in the end, were here to discuss, right?

How about Randle? He barely even attempted to shoot from 3 in college. And when he did, he shot 17%. How about Reggie Bullock? His freshman year he shot 29.6%. Bobby Portis shot 27% from 3 his freshman year. Khris Middleton shot 32% his freshman year from 3. The list goes on and on and on.

[Celo]

Barnes will be a top 10 pick. Believe me or not, but he will be.

EDIT: Sorry for the multiples posts. Early drinking on a Friday will do that to ya..

Well, yeah, he may be. But I wasn't arguing that. To me, he's closer to the late lottery than he is to the top 5. But again, I wanna talk the player, not where he'll go in the draft because we can't say much about that yet.

I wish I knew why you're so confident in Barnes Shot He has bad mechanics, there are no indicators like good FT shooting which could give you hope and some of his misses are UGLY. I couldn't give you 1 reason why I'd be optimistic in his shot right now.

And stop pretending like Volume doesn't matter. You said you've seen more than enough FSU. Then you should know why he wouldn't hit more shots if he'd shoot it more. Because that's simply not his game. And I'm personally doubting that it'll ever be a reliable aspect of his game.

Again: Rookie Springer has a clear role: Defend the best guard on D and hit the open shot on offense. You haven't answered my Barnes utilization question. Because yes, I have no doubt that he'll be a very good defender from the get go. But to make him work offensively, you have to get creative. What is way harder than putting a player on the perimeter and telling him to simply shoot open jumpers. If you expect Springer to be your primary ballhandler, then yes, he's years away. But if you develop him slowly, start using him as a 3&D Guard and then slowly expand his game, he can be a productive rookie from the get-go.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I never said Barnes has no hope offensively. I'm just saying he'll have a hard time as long as he won't prove that he can hit shots. His best skill on offense, his passing, won't be unlocked as long as opponents won't respect his shot. And I bet they sag off of him every time, go under every screen as well as helping off of him if needed. That's why I said he'll get the Elfrid treatment. Because that's what we're seeing right now night in night out.

Where are you getting your numbers from? Because I'm getting mine from Barttorvik, and they are different. Again, RJ had WAY MORE volume. You can't be serious if you're really thinking that doesn't matter. Anyway, Barnes 2P% is at 56 while RJ was at 53. So it's a really marginal difference. And then there's way too little context to just argument with the raw percentages. We'd need synergy numbers like how many of those shots were assisted, how closely were they guarded etc. While prospect RJs shooting was a concern, it wasn't in the slightest as much of a concern as it it for Barnes right now.

Regarding the other players who were bad shooters as Freshman: I'd love to see their high school numbers, but I don't know where to get them. Google's showing me a site called maxpreps, but I can't access it. I don't have any context to argue your comparisions. I don't know how players like Bullock or Portis were perceived as Freshman, I don't know what the scouting reports said about their shooting and I don't know what their HS numbers projected them to be. I found some clips of them as HS players on YouTube. You see them both shooting, even of the dribble, and their mechanics look fine. Whereas if you look for a Barnes HS tape, all you see is some dunks and passing, there's maybe like one C&S Shot in it?

And Randle is once again one of those outlier developments. We haven't seen something like this before. Again, I admitted, that such development is possible, never doubted it. I'm just saying it's not probable. If you really think it's probable for Barnes, tell me why. Maybe I'll see it then, too. But saying it can be done just because other players have done it before is literally the worst argument you can make.

[Fat]

tankathon has us taking cooper + Duarte right now. I wouldn’t be mad at that scenario.

Cooper technically is the most talent guard if he’s still on board in the 20s. Jared butler would be my alternative

His age sucks but Chris Duarte is also probably the smartest move to make with the next pick based on what your getting for the range your picking in. 6”6 Two way player solid defender, solid shooter, underrated passing, nba ready body, capable scorer off the dribble. Checks a lot of boxers but his draft age is going to be 24yrs old.

They have us taking trey Murphy 2nd round big fan of that pick. 6”9 3/D wing.

Cooper, Duarte, Murphy + a big man to stash away in the G-league isn’t a bad draft at all

[robillionaire]

tankathon has us taking cooper + Duarte right now. I wouldn’t be mad at that scenario.

Cooper technically is the most talent guard if he’s still on board in the 20s. Jared butler would be my alternative

His age sucks but Chris Duarte is also probably the smartest move to make with the next pick based on what your getting. 6”6 Two way player solid defender, solid shooter, underrated passing, nba ready body, capable scorer off the dribble. Checks a lot of boxers but his draft age is going to be 24yrs old.

They have us taking trey Murphy 2nd round big fan of that pick. 6”9 3/D wing.

Cooper, Duarte, Murphy + a big man to stash away in the G-league isn’t a bad draft at all

all those dudes are g-league stashes, thibs ain't playing any of them

[Fat]

tankathon has us taking cooper + Duarte right now. I wouldn’t be mad at that scenario.

Cooper technically is the most talent guard if he’s still on board in the 20s. Jared butler would be my alternative

His age sucks but Chris Duarte is also probably the smartest move to make with the next pick based on what your getting. 6”6 Two way player solid defender, solid shooter, underrated passing, nba ready body, capable scorer off the dribble. Checks a lot of boxers but his draft age is going to be 24yrs old.

They have us taking trey Murphy 2nd round big fan of that pick. 6”9 3/D wing.

Cooper, Duarte, Murphy + a big man to stash away in the G-league isn’t a bad draft at all

all those dudes are g-league stashes, thibs ain't playing any of them

He would definitely play Duarte. Murphy needs to get stronger but I could see him getting minutes too.

Cooper would just depend on how well he translates, rose would be a nice mentor for him. Knicks lack a point guard if he’s on board this is BPA with the highest ceiling and still 19. He’s not even a favorite for me but talent is talent

If every pick is based off what thibs would play we’d be drafting nothing but role players with every pick lol this is the same man that drafted josh okogie and Keita bates diop

One or two of these picks need to be high upside players that have a chance to be something more. the Knicks still lack talent.

[NewKnicks]

Barnes will be a top 10 pick. Believe me or not, but he will be.

EDIT: Sorry for the multiples posts. Early drinking on a Friday will do that to ya..

Well, yeah, he may be. But I wasn't arguing that. To me, he's closer to the late lottery than he is to the top 5. But again, I wanna talk the player, not where he'll go in the draft because we can't say much about that yet.

I wish I knew why you're so confident in Barnes Shot He has bad mechanics, there are no indicators like good FT shooting which could give you hope and some of his misses are UGLY. I couldn't give you 1 reason why I'd be optimistic in his shot right now.

And stop pretending like Volume doesn't matter. You said you've seen more than enough FSU. Then you should know why he wouldn't hit more shots if he'd shoot it more. Because that's simply not his game. And I'm personally doubting that it'll ever be a reliable aspect of his game.

Again: Rookie Springer has a clear role: Defend the best guard on D and hit the open shot on offense. You haven't answered my Barnes utilization question. Because yes, I have no doubt that he'll be a very good defender from the get go. But to make him work offensively, you have to get creative. What is way harder than putting a player on the perimeter and telling him to simply shoot open jumpers. If you expect Springer to be your primary ballhandler, then yes, he's years away. But if you develop him slowly, start using him as a 3&D Guard and then slowly expand his game, he can be a productive rookie from the get-go.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I never said Barnes has no hope offensively. I'm just saying he'll have a hard time as long as he won't prove that he can hit shots. His best skill on offense, his passing, won't be unlocked as long as opponents won't respect his shot. And I bet they sag off of him every time, go under every screen as well as helping off of him if needed. That's why I said he'll get the Elfrid treatment. Because that's what we're seeing right now night in night out.

Where are you getting your numbers from? Because I'm getting mine from Barttorvik, and they are different. Again, RJ had WAY MORE volume. You can't be serious if you're really thinking that doesn't matter. Anyway, Barnes 2P% is at 56 while RJ was at 53. So it's a really marginal difference. And then there's way too little context to just argument with the raw percentages. We'd need synergy numbers like how many of those shots were assisted, how closely were they guarded etc. While prospect RJs shooting was a concern, it wasn't in the slightest as much of a concern as it it for Barnes right now.

Regarding the other players who were bad shooters as Freshman: I'd love to see their high school numbers, but I don't know where to get them. Google's showing me a site called maxpreps, but I can't access it. I don't have any context to argue your comparisions. I don't know how players like Bullock or Portis were perceived as Freshman, I don't know what the scouting reports said about their shooting and I don't know what their HS numbers projected them to be. I found some clips of them as HS players on YouTube. You see them both shooting, even of the dribble, and their mechanics look fine. Whereas if you look for a Barnes HS tape, all you see is some dunks and passing, there's maybe like one C&S Shot in it?

And Randle is once again one of those outlier developments. We haven't seen something like this before. Again, I admitted, that such development is possible, never doubted it. I'm just saying it's not probable. If you really think it's probable for Barnes, tell me why. Maybe I'll see it then, too. But saying it can be done just because other players have done it before is literally the worst argument you can make.

I gave you PROOF with specific players (three of them on our Knicks) that shot close to what Barne's shot in freshman years. These are inarguable facts, yet you don't consider them proof of anything. That's not my fault.

Done here, my friend. We'll see in a few months if my prediction on where Barne's will be drafted, and a few years after we're able to evaluate the transition of all the players in this coming draft.

[Fat]

That's basically what I'm hoping for; Ziare, Butler, & Murphy. Kids who could contribute early on if called upon by injuries, but with the big homerun swing in Williams; who is potentially a perfect partner for Julius & Rowan.

This would be a solid draft.

Ziare ain’t falling to the 20”s though. Boston is probably more realistic

Butler is likely to be there. Hawks / lakers IMO are the biggest threats to take him if they finish with a higher pick than us.

[NewKnicks]

tankathon has us taking cooper + Duarte right now. I wouldn’t be mad at that scenario.

Cooper technically is the most talent guard if he’s still on board in the 20s. Jared butler would be my alternative

His age sucks but Chris Duarte is also probably the smartest move to make with the next pick based on what your getting for the range your picking in. 6”6 Two way player solid defender, solid shooter, underrated passing, nba ready body, capable scorer off the dribble. Checks a lot of boxers but his draft age is going to be 24yrs old.

They have us taking trey Murphy 2nd round big fan of that pick. 6”9 3/D wing.

Cooper, Duarte, Murphy + a big man to stash away in the G-league isn’t a bad draft at all

I wouldn't be mad at that either. I'm just concerned (very concerned) about Duarte's age. I wouldn't be so hesitant to take him if it wasn't for Obi.

I like Cooper a lot, but I'd rather have Ayo. At this point it looks like both might be available with one (or both) of our picks. Perfect spot for us to land a talented future PG. If the draft plays out and both are available, we better snag one of them. I'll be pretty pissed if we don't.