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JBreezeNY wrote:

cgf wrote:I hate how much worse I feel about adding Murray the more I dig.

Last season the Hawks defense struggled as much when Murray played but Trae sat, as it did when Murray sat & Trae was on the court, and was even worse when they were on the court together

Murray on/Trae on - 117.46 DefRtg (1768 minutes)
Murray off/Trae on - 116.94 DefRtg (1152 minutes)
Murray on/Trae off - 116.89 DefRtg (1039 minutes)
Murray off/Trae off - 111.36 DefRtg (348 minutes)

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612737&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=1627749,1629027

And this had some ominous blurbs:

Murray is not the best one-on-one defender. Among 207 players who’ve defended at least 250 isolations over the last three seasons, he ranks just 168th in points per chance allowed (1.02), according to Second Spectrum tracking.

He’ll bite on pump fakes and sometimes get caught standing up…Murray can also be a little too thirsty for steals, and his gambles can put his team’s defense at a disadvantage…

https://www.nba.com/news/film-study-dejounte-murray-atlanta-hawks

Bro Murray is not the guy. I saw your posts the other day and I wanted to And1 all of them. Just from an eye test he plays poor off ball defense, poor on ball defense, has a sh*tty ego & he’s an inefficient scorer. He is good at help defense hence his steals but he does gamble a bit.

I don’t understand this sudden spark for him here and it’s clear people don’t watch him game in and game out. I watch the hawks he’s talented but you will tear your hair out because he’s lazy.

The numbers back up everything I’m saying about him.

Same things I felt about Jalen Green.

Sometimes you just have gut feelings about players and I’m telling yall we need to stay far away from him.

He’s the type of player you get still hoping 3 years later he unlocks his potential. How many moody players have we gone through? No to Murray.

How often have we seen a guy go from a bad culture or bad coaching/system fit to a better culture and/or system fit and play to his ability ? It happens quite often in all sports not just the NBA.

Murray has proven under a good coach/system in Pops he could defend/rebound/ and score. It's just been a baaaad situation down there in Atl and he not coincidentally looks worse than he did in SA.

He's still young, not overly injury prone , and the idea is he is worth the risk at a manageable 23M AAV to revert closer back to what he was in San Antonio his last 2 years of his development curve under Pops.

It's worth the risk (at least in my mind and what seems like the Knicks front office too) especially if the cost is something like Grimes, Fournier and a couple FRPs. They have successfully hit on Randle (despite the playoffs), Brunson, Hart and DDV with many playing BETTER when they were integrated to this system/culture. All their contracts are good to great value relative to their production levels.

If they trade for Murray I have faith they have done their homework and expect him to IMPROVE and simply become closer to what he has already PROVEN he can be in SA. At 23M AAV that would be great value and at minumum a flippable asset in the offseason if it came to that.

KnixinSix wrote:

JBreezeNY wrote:

cgf wrote:I hate how much worse I feel about adding Murray the more I dig.

Last season the Hawks defense struggled as much when Murray played but Trae sat, as it did when Murray sat & Trae was on the court, and was even worse when they were on the court together

Murray on/Trae on - 117.46 DefRtg (1768 minutes)
Murray off/Trae on - 116.94 DefRtg (1152 minutes)
Murray on/Trae off - 116.89 DefRtg (1039 minutes)
Murray off/Trae off - 111.36 DefRtg (348 minutes)

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612737&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=1627749,1629027

And this had some ominous blurbs:



https://www.nba.com/news/film-study-dejounte-murray-atlanta-hawks

Bro Murray is not the guy. I saw your posts the other day and I wanted to And1 all of them. Just from an eye test he plays poor off ball defense, poor on ball defense, has a sh*tty ego & he’s an inefficient scorer. He is good at help defense hence his steals but he does gamble a bit.

I don’t understand this sudden spark for him here and it’s clear people don’t watch him game in and game out. I watch the hawks he’s talented but you will tear your hair out because he’s lazy.

The numbers back up everything I’m saying about him.

Same things I felt about Jalen Green.

Sometimes you just have gut feelings about players and I’m telling yall we need to stay far away from him.

He’s the type of player you get still hoping 3 years later he unlocks his potential. How many moody players have we gone through? No to Murray.

How often have we seen a guy go from a bad culture or bad coaching/system fit to a better culture and/or system fit and play to his ability ? It happens quite often in all sports not just the NBA.

Murray has proven under a good coach/system in Pops he could defend/rebound/ and score. It's just been a baaaad situation down there in Atl and he not coincidentally looks worse than he did in SA.

He's still young, not overly injury prone , and the idea is he is worth the risk at a manageable 23M AAV to revert closer back to what he was in San Antonio his last 2 years of his development curve under Pops.

It's worth the risk (at least in my mind and what seems like the Knicks front office too) especially if the cost is something like Grimes, Fournier and a couple FRPs. They have successfully hit on Randle (despite the playoffs), Brunson, Hart and DDV with many playing BETTER when they were integrated to this system/culture. All their contracts are good to great value relative to their production levels.

If they trade for Murray I have faith they have done their homework and expect him to IMPROVE and simply become closer to what he has already PROVEN he can be in SA. At 23M AAV that would be great value and at minumum a flippable asset in the offseason if it came to that.

Do the spurs have a bad culture? Because it looks like he was a bad defender even before being traded to Atlanta:

Murray is not the best one-on-one defender. Among 207 players who’ve defended at least 250 isolations over the last three seasons, he ranks just 168th in points per chance allowed (1.02), according to Second Spectrum tracking.

He’ll bite on pump fakes and sometimes get caught standing up…Murray can also be a little too thirsty for steals, and his gambles can put his team’s defense at a disadvantage…

That means that even with a good culture, he was in the bottom 19% for iso defenders that had enough reps to meet the criteria.


And given what spurs fans have said about his attitude, it doesn't sound like he's a good fit for a team with a good culture...

We need someone reliable to backup Brunson, Deuce isn’t ready. Fournier can go for any of these guys, would be good replacements for Quickley.
Brogdon
Caruso
Smart
Rozier
Clarkson

cgf wrote:

He was a bad on ball defender with the Spurs and gambled a lot for deflections/steals, long before getting stuck next to Trae...and he's been struggling in Atlanta even when Trae is on the bench. The more I dig the more it seems like DJM's defense was never actually as good as the hype.

This doesn't happen to bad on Ball defenders.

RHODEY wrote:And his shooting has improved since playing with the Spurs. I'm hoping the Hawks don't get Siakam....

cgf wrote: His shooting has improved since November 2023. He shot 34.0% from 3 last season; his career average is 34.1%.

Right and we live in the present...where he shoots 38.3 %

RHODEY wrote:

cgf wrote:

He was a bad on ball defender with the Spurs and gambled a lot for deflections/steals, long before getting stuck next to Trae...and he's been struggling in Atlanta even when Trae is on the bench. The more I dig the more it seems like DJM's defense was never actually as good as the hype.

This doesn't happen to bad on Ball defenders.

RHODEY wrote:And his shooting has improved since playing with the Spurs. I'm hoping the Hawks don't get Siakam....

cgf wrote: His shooting has improved since November 2023. He shot 34.0% from 3 last season; his career average is 34.1%.

Right and we live in the present...where he shoots 38.3 %

offensively imo he only really works here if he’s coming off the bench.. he brunson and randle are all too ball dominant

RHODEY wrote:

cgf wrote:

He was a bad on ball defender with the Spurs and gambled a lot for deflections/steals, long before getting stuck next to Trae...and he's been struggling in Atlanta even when Trae is on the bench. The more I dig the more it seems like DJM's defense was never actually as good as the hype.

This doesn't happen to bad on Ball defenders.

RHODEY wrote:And his shooting has improved since playing with the Spurs. I'm hoping the Hawks don't get Siakam....

cgf wrote: His shooting has improved since November 2023. He shot 34.0% from 3 last season; his career average is 34.1%.

Right and we live in the present...where he shoots 38.3 %

Your image didn't show for me, but I'll just repeat that this is before he even joined Atlanta:

Murray is not the best one-on-one defender. Among 207 players who’ve defended at least 250 isolations over the last three seasons, he ranks just 168th in points per chance allowed (1.02), according to Second Spectrum tracking.

He’ll bite on pump fakes and sometimes get caught standing up…Murray can also be a little too thirsty for steals, and his gambles can put his team’s defense at a disadvantage…

You can say that being in the bottom 19% of isolation defenders is the sign of a good on ball defender, but that's a tough argument to make.


And did you think that RJ turned into a sharpshooter every time he got hot for a couple months? You're hyping a 38 games sample size when this guy has played more than 400 games in his career.

Hey Landry Fields, we'd like to trade for Dejounte Murray:

DaGawd wrote:

RHODEY wrote:

cgf wrote:

He was a bad on ball defender with the Spurs and gambled a lot for deflections/steals, long before getting stuck next to Trae...and he's been struggling in Atlanta even when Trae is on the bench. The more I dig the more it seems like DJM's defense was never actually as good as the hype.

This doesn't happen to bad on Ball defenders.

RHODEY wrote:And his shooting has improved since playing with the Spurs. I'm hoping the Hawks don't get Siakam....

cgf wrote: His shooting has improved since November 2023. He shot 34.0% from 3 last season; his career average is 34.1%.

Right and we live in the present...where he shoots 38.3 %

offensively imo he only really works here if he’s coming off the bench.. he brunson and randle are all too ball dominant

I disagree.. In fact, like Brunson he can play well off the ball and is actually a point guard who willingly passes.

He's an almost perfect complement to Brunson and the teams defensive identity..

cgf wrote:

RHODEY wrote:

cgf wrote:

He was a bad on ball defender with the Spurs and gambled a lot for deflections/steals, long before getting stuck next to Trae...and he's been struggling in Atlanta even when Trae is on the bench. The more I dig the more it seems like DJM's defense was never actually as good as the hype.

This doesn't happen to bad on Ball defenders.

RHODEY wrote:And his shooting has improved since playing with the Spurs. I'm hoping the Hawks don't get Siakam....

cgf wrote: His shooting has improved since November 2023. He shot 34.0% from 3 last season; his career average is 34.1%.

Right and we live in the present...where he shoots 38.3 %

Your image didn't show for me, but I'll just repeat that this is before he even joined Atlanta:

Murray is not the best one-on-one defender. Among 207 players who’ve defended at least 250 isolations over the last three seasons, he ranks just 168th in points per chance allowed (1.02), according to Second Spectrum tracking.

He’ll bite on pump fakes and sometimes get caught standing up…Murray can also be a little too thirsty for steals, and his gambles can put his team’s defense at a disadvantage…

And I repeat the ALL DEFENSIVE SECOND TEAM award ...is not something that gets handed out to bad defenders.

RHODEY wrote:

cgf wrote:

RHODEY wrote:
This doesn't happen to bad on Ball defenders.





Right and we live in the present...where he shoots 38.3 %

Your image didn't show for me, but I'll just repeat that this is before he even joined Atlanta:

Murray is not the best one-on-one defender. Among 207 players who’ve defended at least 250 isolations over the last three seasons, he ranks just 168th in points per chance allowed (1.02), according to Second Spectrum tracking.

He’ll bite on pump fakes and sometimes get caught standing up…Murray can also be a little too thirsty for steals, and his gambles can put his team’s defense at a disadvantage…

And I repeat the ALL DEFENSIVE SECOND TEAM award ...is not something that gets handed out to bad defenders.

I don't remember 2nd team all defense rosters well enough to say that's true. My gut says it probably isn't and they've most likely made mistakes before...wouldn't be the first time that people confused making a lot of big plays on defense with being a good defender.

Murray gets a lot of things people can measure...rebounds / deflections / steals...but if you're getting regularly getting burned by your man and out of position because you're constantly gambling on steals, you can do well in those measurable stats and still be a bad defender.

But let's say he is this stud defender, why was an all-defense guy so bad at stopping anyone one-on-one? And 3 years isn't a small sample size.

Here for the rumors

Woj just pronounced Hawks are open for business.....

LOL going according to plan.....

DaGawd wrote:

RHODEY wrote:

cgf wrote:

He was a bad on ball defender with the Spurs and gambled a lot for deflections/steals, long before getting stuck next to Trae...and he's been struggling in Atlanta even when Trae is on the bench. The more I dig the more it seems like DJM's defense was never actually as good as the hype.

This doesn't happen to bad on Ball defenders.

RHODEY wrote:And his shooting has improved since playing with the Spurs. I'm hoping the Hawks don't get Siakam....

cgf wrote: His shooting has improved since November 2023. He shot 34.0% from 3 last season; his career average is 34.1%.

Right and we live in the present...where he shoots 38.3 %

offensively imo he only really works here if he’s coming off the bench.. he brunson and randle are all too ball dominant

TIme on court all 3 together will be staggered (at least partially)

Murray will get between 10-15 minutes a night to run point with Brunson on the Bench.

RHODEY wrote:

DaGawd wrote:

RHODEY wrote:
This doesn't happen to bad on Ball defenders.





Right and we live in the present...where he shoots 38.3 %

offensively imo he only really works here if he’s coming off the bench.. he brunson and randle are all too ball dominant

I disagree.. In fact, like Brunson he can play well off the ball and is actually a point guard who willingly passes.

Watch on YouTube

He's an almost perfect complement to Brunson and the teams defensive identity..

I think he comes in and fits like a glove as a team and system fit. Our culture has had a positive effect on numerous players. He proved he can be a high level combo guard his last two years in San Antonio. Is he perfect? no...otherwise the cost would be much higher.... but for his salary (23M for a 20pt fairly efficient level scorer, that is one of the top mid range shooters this year and a 38% 3 pt shooter) and likely palatable cost in assets, it's a shrewd move if we pull it off.

cgf wrote:
I don't remember 2nd team all defense rosters well enough to say that's true. My gut says it probably isn't and they've most likely made mistakes before...wouldn't be the first time that people confused making a lot of big plays on defense with being a good defender.

You can google it

cgf wrote:
Murray gets a lot of things people can measure...rebounds / deflections / steals...but if you're getting regularly getting burned by your man and out of position because you're constantly gambling on steals, you can do well in those measurable stats and still be a bad defender.

But let's say he is this stud defender, why was an all-defense guy so bad at stopping anyone one-on-one? And 3 years isn't a small sample size.

Pretty simply, Dejounte was a better defensive player in SAS because they had a defensive system and better coaching.

The last few seasons with Atlanta it seems as if he's developed bad habits of chasing steals which often causes him to overhelp or get blown by.

I believe those bad habits will be curtailed under Thibs and by playing with better defensive players on the Knicks. He'll get back to his old self.

KnixinSix wrote:

RHODEY wrote:

DaGawd wrote:offensively imo he only really works here if he’s coming off the bench.. he brunson and randle are all too ball dominant

I disagree.. In fact, like Brunson he can play well off the ball and is actually a point guard who willingly passes.

Watch on YouTube

He's an almost perfect complement to Brunson and the teams defensive identity..

I think he comes in and fits like a glove as a team and system fit. Our culture has had a positive effect on numerous players. He proved he can be a high level combo guard his last two years in San Antonio. Is he perfect? no...otherwise the cost would be much higher.... but for his salary (23M for a 20pt fairly efficient level scorer, that is one of the top mid range shooters this year and a 38% 3 pt shooter) and likely palatable cost in assets, it's a shrewd move if we pull it off.

He can be traded starting on Jan 9th. Circle that day on your calendar!

RHODEY wrote:

KnixinSix wrote:

RHODEY wrote:
I disagree.. In fact, like Brunson he can play well off the ball and is actually a point guard who willingly passes.

Watch on YouTube

He's an almost perfect complement to Brunson and the teams defensive identity..

I think he comes in and fits like a glove as a team and system fit. Our culture has had a positive effect on numerous players. He proved he can be a high level combo guard his last two years in San Antonio. Is he perfect? no...otherwise the cost would be much higher.... but for his salary (23M for a 20pt fairly efficient level scorer, that is one of the top mid range shooters this year and a 38% 3 pt shooter) and likely palatable cost in assets, it's a shrewd move if we pull it off.

He can be traded starting on Jan 9th. Circle that day on your calendar!

Thought it was the 5th?

KnixinSix wrote:

RHODEY wrote:

KnixinSix wrote:

I think he comes in and fits like a glove as a team and system fit. Our culture has had a positive effect on numerous players. He proved he can be a high level combo guard his last two years in San Antonio. Is he perfect? no...otherwise the cost would be much higher.... but for his salary (23M for a 20pt fairly efficient level scorer, that is one of the top mid range shooters this year and a 38% 3 pt shooter) and likely palatable cost in assets, it's a shrewd move if we pull it off.

He can be traded starting on Jan 9th. Circle that day on your calendar!

Thought it was the 5th?

So did I but it's the 9th.

RHODEY wrote:

KnixinSix wrote:

RHODEY wrote:
He can be traded starting on Jan 9th. Circle that day on your calendar!

Thought it was the 5th?

So did I but it's the 9th.

Ahhh probably we things haven't heated up even more just quite yet....

Colin Sexton or Terry Rozier should be our targets.

Murray doesn't move the needle for the price it takes to get him here.