[Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for NYK! Part 5

[GONYK]

Just remember in all of this - that if we keep Fields, Gallo and Chandler we have 3 solid players for the rest of the decade. Melo has half his career behind him already.

Not saying I wouldn't do a trade but just think how much different our past decade would have been if we'd held on to some our talent instead of trading for "stars". This whole time we could have had Camby but we traded for McDyess because he was a "star". And we still don't have a good center.

If we do get Melo we are really just Miami lite. Amar'e is better than Bosh but they have 3 stars - two of which are better than Melo. Might be smarter on our part to have a deeper team with our one superstar. Kind of like how the Lakers do it.

Lakers have 2 stars

[johnnywishbone]

Just remember in all of this - that if we keep Fields, Gallo and Chandler we have 3 solid players for the rest of the decade. Melo has half his career behind him already.

Not saying I wouldn't do a trade but just think how much different our past decade would have been if we'd held on to some our talent instead of trading for "stars". This whole time we could have had Camby but we traded for McDyess because he was a "star". And we still don't have a good center.

If we do get Melo we are really just Miami lite. Amar'e is better than Bosh but they have 3 stars - two of which are better than Melo. Might be smarter on our part to have a deeper team with our one superstar. Kind of like how the Lakers do it.

Lakers have 2 stars

Pau Gasol is a star like Raymond Felton is a star.

[Jose7]

Just remember in all of this - that if we keep Fields, Gallo and Chandler we have 3 solid players for the rest of the decade. Melo has half his career behind him already.

Not saying I wouldn't do a trade but just think how much different our past decade would have been if we'd held on to some our talent instead of trading for "stars". This whole time we could have had Camby but we traded for McDyess because he was a "star". And we still don't have a good center.

If we do get Melo we are really just Miami lite. Amar'e is better than Bosh but they have 3 stars - two of which are better than Melo. Might be smarter on our part to have a deeper team with our one superstar. Kind of like how the Lakers do it.

You can't say that.

Melo shyts on everyone who he goes up against. It's just different types of talent, LeBron and Wade have to dominate the ball for their teams to be ran effectively. Melo doesn't and we see that when he goes up against every elite player, he's always coming out on top in his matchup.

[kane2021]

No one can honestly sit here and say they would have expected Amare and Felton to play at this level. Really many felt Amare and Felton were minor upgrades over Lee and Duhon. You cant calculate the amount of effort and hunger these guys have. Its whats in their head and heart that make the difference.

Im not downing our guys. But Melo is at the level he is at because he pushed to be there. These are special talents. And I think its safe to assume he can also step his game up a level with a change in NY.

[johnnywishbone]

Just remember in all of this - that if we keep Fields, Gallo and Chandler we have 3 solid players for the rest of the decade. Melo has half his career behind him already.

Not saying I wouldn't do a trade but just think how much different our past decade would have been if we'd held on to some our talent instead of trading for "stars". This whole time we could have had Camby but we traded for McDyess because he was a "star". And we still don't have a good center.

If we do get Melo we are really just Miami lite. Amar'e is better than Bosh but they have 3 stars - two of which are better than Melo. Might be smarter on our part to have a deeper team with our one superstar. Kind of like how the Lakers do it.

You can't say that.

Melo shyts on everyone who he goes up against. It's just different types of talent, LeBron and Wade have to dominate the ball for their teams to be ran effectively. Melo doesn't and we see that when he goes up against every elite player, he's always coming out on top in his matchup.

Oh, I forgot that Melo has "shyt" all over other stars. That's how he got all those rings. Oh wait...

[j4remi]

Just remember in all of this - that if we keep Fields, Gallo and Chandler we have 3 solid players for the rest of the decade. Melo has half his career behind him already.

Not saying I wouldn't do a trade but just think how much different our past decade would have been if we'd held on to some our talent instead of trading for "stars". This whole time we could have had Camby but we traded for McDyess because he was a "star". And we still don't have a good center.

If we do get Melo we are really just Miami lite. Amar'e is better than Bosh but they have 3 stars - two of which are better than Melo. Might be smarter on our part to have a deeper team with our one superstar. Kind of like how the Lakers do it.

You can't say that.

Melo shyts on everyone who he goes up against. It's just different types of talent, LeBron and Wade have to dominate the ball for their teams to be ran effectively. Melo doesn't and we see that when he goes up against every elite player, he's always coming out on top in his matchup.

Yep, I remember Melo going shot for shot with Kobe until he got hurt. I thought Denver was gonna win the chip.

[god shammgod]

edit

[Siem]

Just remember in all of this - that if we keep Fields, Gallo and Chandler we have 3 solid players for the rest of the decade. Melo has half his career behind him already.

Not saying I wouldn't do a trade but just think how much different our past decade would have been if we'd held on to some our talent instead of trading for "stars". This whole time we could have had Camby but we traded for McDyess because he was a "star". And we still don't have a good center.

If we do get Melo we are really just Miami lite. Amar'e is better than Bosh but they have 3 stars - two of which are better than Melo. Might be smarter on our part to have a deeper team with our one superstar. Kind of like how the Lakers do it.

Lakers have 2 stars

Pau Gasol is a star like Raymond Felton is a star.

You have to be kidding me.....

[dk7th]

if you are right then it won't be the end of the world if we sign him as a free agent since he takes over chandler's role on the team skills-wise and makes gallinari come off the bench. i'd be cool with that to be honest. gallinari as a more integral part of a bench offense would be great for the knicks

A day ago you argued Gallinari was a better fit for the Knicks offense than Anthony.

Why do you have the Knicks spending $18m, and making him the starter over the guy you said was a better fit for their offense?

What sense does that make?

I won't even go into your claim that the Knicks WILL begin to lose if Stoudemire doesn't start averaging 4 assists a game.

amar'e got 4 assists yesterday and the knicks won against a .500+ team.

carmelo went 0-6 from 3-point land.

try to let that sink in.

and i am saying if walsh decides to trade for carmelo or acquire him as a free agent i would be cool with gallinari moving to the bench-- but that doesn't mean i think carmelo would be a better fit-- cause he wouldn't. d'antoni is going to continue to demand ball movement.

i was at the game yesterday. i saw very clearly what the limitations of the amar'e/felton tandem is: they don't move the ball enough. right now the knicks have been successful. wednesday night may very well be a wake-up call for amar'e and felton. the celtics play stifling defense and it is only by passing the ball crisply and recognizing the double team quickly that the knicks have a chance to prevail.

please make a note of what i just stated.

amar'e is a scorer who needs touches who has to outscore his man to be effective. he is not an elite passer when doubled.
carmelo is a scorer who needs touches and has to outscore his man to be effective. he is not an elite passer when doubled.
felton is a scorer who needs touches. he defends pretty well but elite point guards are going to reveal his limitations as a defender.

the knicks have achieved a nice balance as of right now.

[DishAndSwish]

Good question. I don't necessarily think even acquiring a defensive-minded center would put the Knicks over the top. I'm not sure if ANYTHING the Knicks could do would put them over the top to beat a team like the Heat if they play up to potential. But I'd rather save assets on a player that could be acquired over the summer if he's still wanted. Other players can surface. Players that might seem out of reach now might suddenly become available. Maybe Gallo, Chandler, and Fields continue to improv next year. I don't know. All I'm saying is this team is not winning a championship this season with or without Melo so there is no need to rush this.

Patience, patience, patience. We finally got out of eight years of quick-draw, short-sighted moves because we had a bunch of GMs (and an owner) that couldn't hold their collective loads). Donnie has brought some level of patience. Can we please continue to exercise it and continue this rebuild in a considered, thoughtful manner? This isn't a one day process.

I respectfully disagree. The moment we signed Amare to a $100 million, 5 year contract, the "rebuilding" phase has ended -- it's "win as soon as possible," not "let's continue rebuilding." Amare is not a draft pick a team looks to build around for a decade. The goal according to Donnie was to get sufficiently under the CAP to sign not one but two max free agents. Where is that second max free agent? The only logical person this year is Melo who you KNOW you can get -- I don't really see other similar caliber players who are as readily obtainable in the near future. If we pass on him, it's all speculative as to who that second star might be and whether we will even be able to obtain him, assuming he's available. If you want to argue that DW and CP become available in 2012, that's a legitimate argument. But then you are gambling on Amare's health for the remainder of his contract, whether the "core" will continue to develop, and whether replacing Felton with one of those two players really puts us over the top.

[Jose7]

if you are right then it won't be the end of the world if we sign him as a free agent since he takes over chandler's role on the team skills-wise and makes gallinari come off the bench. i'd be cool with that to be honest. gallinari as a more integral part of a bench offense would be great for the knicks

A day ago you argued Gallinari was a better fit for the Knicks offense than Anthony.

Why do you have the Knicks spending $18m, and making him the starter over the guy you said was a better fit for their offense?

What sense does that make?

I won't even go into your claim that the Knicks WILL begin to lose if Stoudemire doesn't start averaging 4 assists a game.

amar'e got 4 assists yesterday and the knicks won against a .500+ team.

carmelo went 0-6 from 3-point land.

try to let that sink in.

and i am saying if walsh decides to trade for carmelo or acquire him as a free agent i would be cool with gallinari moving to the bench-- but that doesn't mean i think carmelo would be a better fit-- cause he wouldn't. d'antoni is going to continue to demand ball movement.

i was at the game yesterday. i saw very clearly what the limitations of the amar'e/felton tandem is: they don't move the ball enough. right now the knicks have been successful. wednesday night may very well be a wake-up call for amar'e and felton. the celtics play stifling defense and it is only by passing the ball crisply and recognizing the double team quickly that the knicks have a chance to prevail.

please make a note of what i just stated.

amar'e is a scorer who needs touches who has to outscore his man to be effective. he is not an elite passer when doubled.
carmelo is a scorer who needs touches and has to outscore his man to be effective. he is not an elite passer when doubled.
felton is a scorer who needs touches. he defends pretty well but elite point guards are going to reveal his limitations as a defender.

the knicks have achieved a nice balance as of right now.

Re: Your analysis.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0[/youtube]

[god shammgod]

and if you think the team is better off with Melo than make the statement instead of insinuating it so I can toss the laughing smiley out and dead this convo.

simply put, if the nuggets replace melo with gallo or chandler there's no way they make the playoffs. none.

[johnnywishbone]

No one can honestly sit here and say they would have expected Amare and Felton to play at this level. Really many felt Amare and Felton were minor upgrades over Lee and Duhon. You cant calculate the amount of effort and hunger these guys have. Its whats in their head and heart that make the difference.

Im not downing our guys. But Melo is at the level he is at because he pushed to be there. These are special talents. And I think its safe to assume he can also step his game up a level with a change in NY.

Just for grins. I'm going to put the boards record out there and I think we can all agree that this is what people generally thought (of course there are many individual exceptions).

1. Bosh >> Amar'e
2. Fields & Rautins worst picks in history.
3. AR was the biggest acquisition in the offseason besides Amar'e.
4. Felton was going to be the next Duhon i.e. player we all hate.
5. Lebron was coming to NY.
6. Chandler should be traded for (insert name here). But mostly Rudy Fernandez because we don't have a SG and Wil can't shoot threes.

[god shammgod]

No one can honestly sit here and say they would have expected Amare and Felton to play at this level. Really many felt Amare and Felton were minor upgrades over Lee and Duhon. You cant calculate the amount of effort and hunger these guys have. Its whats in their head and heart that make the difference.

Im not downing our guys. But Melo is at the level he is at because he pushed to be there. These are special talents. And I think its safe to assume he can also step his game up a level with a change in NY.

Just for grins. I'm going to put the boards record out there and I think we can all agree that this is what people generally thought (of course there are many individual exceptions).

1. Bosh >> Amar'e
2. Fields & Rautins worst picks in history.
3. AR was the biggest acquisition in the offseason besides Amar'e.
4. Felton was going to be the next Duhon i.e. player we all hate.
5. Lebron was coming to NY.
6. Chandler should be traded for (insert name here). But mostly Rudy Fernandez because we don't have a SG and Wil can't shoot threes.

most people on this board have been wrong more then they have been right though they'll never admit it. that includes me.

[Justdatdude]

But that's not Melo's fault...the guy put up very impressive numbers, but his supporting cast was pretty lacking and injury plagued too if I'm not mistaken. I kinda relate it to KG's T'wolves, those teams making the playoffs alone was a miracle.

Ok, so you love Carmelo Anthony and blame his constantly losing in the first round of the playoffs on everybody on the team but him.

The Nuggets are 14 - 9 this year and Carmelo Anthony is shooting 42% from the field and 28% from three.

Maybe if he played a little better his team would be better.

He averaged 30, 8.5 and 3.3 last postseason along with 2 steals...He shot 46% from the field.

The year before that in the big run they had, he put up 27.2, 5.8 and 4.1 with 1.8 steals...he shot 45% from the field.

Those numbers speak for themselves.

This season his 3 point average is ugly for sure but he's only attempting 2 per game...and if you think the team is better off with Melo than make the statement instead of insinuating it so I can toss the laughing smiley out and dead this convo.

One thing I noticed about Carmelo is when he gets hurt, his 3 ball completely disappears.

In 07-08, he shot 35.4% from deep and he shot 37.1% from deep in the 08-09 season.

Fast forward to 09-10 and he was shooting the 3 ball at around 38% from 3. Then he sprained his ankle and came back just before the Allstar break. After the break, he shot 23% from deep. This season he started on fire from deep. He couldn't miss, then right around the time he got sick, his 3 ball has completely abandoned him. If I recall, he got sick right after the Warriors game. Then he claimed his body has been drained since then and he hasn't felt the same. Since that game, he's 2-17 from deep. That means he was 12-31 for 38.7% before the sickness/injury and 11.7% since. That's weird.

As far as the trade goes, this is how I see it. With any trade that we do, neither Chandler, Fields or Gallo really separate themselves from Melo in any skill except for 3 point shooting. Knowing we take to many 3 pointers to begin with, I don't mind subtracting a few 3s a game for 7+ freethrows a game. The defensive slip from Chandler to Melo will not be by much, as it'll most likely allow Melo to play the 3, which slides Ronny back into the lineup at the 5. So we lose a little bit of 3 point shooting, while improving a strength that we already have. Its a win-win situation. We have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Its better to get this trade done sooner than later, as it will allow for chemistry to build and the team will be fully prepared come playoff time.

[j4remi]

and if you think the team is better off with Melo than make the statement instead of insinuating it so I can toss the laughing smiley out and dead this convo.

simply put, if the nuggets replace melo with gallo or chandler there's no way make the playoffs. none.

I gotta edit that and make it without, cosign your statement though. That team without Melo is a lottery team.

[FieldsMedal]

amar'e got 4 assists yesterday and the knicks won against a .500+ team.

He and they did.

But you said if he doesn't average 4 assists a game, they will lose (your exact words).

He's played in 541 games and averaged 1.4.

carmelo went 0-6 from 3-point land.

try to let that sink in.

Okay...

Sunk.

Since we're now putting all the weight of the world into what happened yesterday.

Wilson Chandler was 5-9 from 3.

Landry Fields was 3-5

Toney Douglas was 2-5

Danillo Gallinari was 2-6.

Getting a "sinking" feeling yet?

and i am saying if walsh decides to trade for carmelo or acquire him as a free agent i would be cool with gallinari moving to the bench-- but that doesn't mean i think carmelo would be a better fit-- cause he wouldn't. d'antoni is going to continue to demand ball movement.

Then why are you cool?

i was at the game yesterday. i saw very clearly what the limitations of the amar'e/felton tandem is: they don't move the ball enough. right now the knicks have been successful. wednesday night may very well be a wake-up call for amar'e and felton. the celtics play stifling defense and it is only by passing the ball crisply and recognizing the double team quickly that the knicks have a chance to prevail.

I've never argued that Stoudemire wasn't a good ball distributor. In fact I've argued I don't expect he ever will.

It is you who have someone made the connection between that and Danillo Gallinari vs. 'Melo, as if somehow Gallo is going to inspire Stat to pass the ball more.

[b]please make a note of what i just stated.

Okay.

amar'e is a scorer who needs touches who has to outscore his man to be effective. he is not an elite passer when doubled.
carmelo is a scorer who needs touches and has to outscore his man to be effective. he is not an elite passer when doubled.
felton is a scorer who needs touches. he defends pretty well but elite point guards are going to reveal his limitations as a defender.

the knicks have achieved a nice balance as of right now.

Okay, reread my notes.

Why are you advocating giving 'Melo a max contract and inserting him into the start line-up exactly?

[Justdatdude]

No one can honestly sit here and say they would have expected Amare and Felton to play at this level. Really many felt Amare and Felton were minor upgrades over Lee and Duhon. You cant calculate the amount of effort and hunger these guys have. Its whats in their head and heart that make the difference.

Im not downing our guys. But Melo is at the level he is at because he pushed to be there. These are special talents. And I think its safe to assume he can also step his game up a level with a change in NY.

Great post Kane. Like you said, no one expected that duo to be this good and even then, we've feasted on some bad teams. The way Amare is playing on this streak is amazing and unbelievable. With that said, can we really expect Amare to produce at this pace the entire season? Compared to how he was at the beginning of the season, he's on a whole 'nother level. He's putting up 33/10 every single game and do we really want to tire him before the postseason? He's playing 40 minutes during this streak and a career high 37 mpg. That's with us beating bad teams, so you can just imagine the amount of time he will be getting when we play these elite teams.

Carmelo will come here and he will feed off this crowd and city. We will have another guy who can carry the load and it'll allow us to get Amare/Melo to play about 35 minutes a game and be ready come playoff time, instead of us just having a fatigued Amare in the playoffs.

Its a no lose situation. Everything to gain and nothing to lose.

[Justdatdude]

and if you think the team is better off with Melo than make the statement instead of insinuating it so I can toss the laughing smiley out and dead this convo.

simply put, if the nuggets replace melo with gallo or chandler there's no way make the playoffs. none.

I gotta edit that and make it without, cosign your statement though. That team without Melo is a lottery team.

I doubt it. I think Billups will be able to carry them. He has a 57 ts% right now so I think he can shoulder the load. You do know he is the reason the Nuggets went to the conference finals...

[j4remi]

amar'e is a scorer who needs touches who has to outscore his man to be effective. he is not an elite passer when doubled.
carmelo is a scorer who needs touches and has to outscore his man to be effective. he is not an elite passer when doubled.
felton is a scorer who needs touches. he defends pretty well but elite point guards are going to reveal his limitations as a defender.

the knicks have achieved a nice balance as of right now.

I kind of disagree with how you chose to assess these guys.

Amare needs touches to score, but can play effectively off the ball through the pick and roll and midrange jumper given space. While he isn't an elite passer when doubled, he's already displayed a willingness to pass out of doubles. He forces the issue at times but has improved in that facet quite a bit since early (except for the 11 TO game but he's been good with trusting teammates somewhat, especially early). In isolation, he's damn near unstoppable (important to note).

Carmelo is a scorer who can beat you off the ball and with the ball in hand. He's adept at the catch and shoot. He can handle and has been a willing passer in many cases (it's not like his assist totals have been terrible at SF and they're pretty solid when you consider he's the focal point of the O since day one). On team USA he was effective despite being off the ball mainly, especially when Kobe, Wade and Bron were all aboard. He too is damn near unstoppable.

Felton is a PG. He should not be the second option scoring, he should be the top distributor but he's doing what is necessary to score. He's already proven that he can find Amare on the PnR but also pick out open men when that isn't working. Give him Melo and he won't have qualms with scoring a bit less and distributing more.

Essentially we have two players that you have to double team and a talented distributor who will score if the defenders try to cheat off of him. Like I've said before, it becomes a pick your poison...Who cheats over to help against Amare or Melo? Which do you double team? The options to stop these guys become few, because there aren't many if any teams that have capable man to man defenders at both F positions AND PG...that offense is dynamic and scary, especially if we keep Gallo to spread things out.