Frank Thread 3: FIBA Frank Aftermath

[Deeeez Knicks]

the thing about Trier is that he's almost useless when he's not iso'ing because he doesn't move without the ball , his shots per minute are basically even with dotson .

his usage is less than virtually every offensive player on the roster last season and on a 65 loss team with many of it younger players are taking more of an offensive initiative, that has to be a major red flag.

Trier shot 44% on catch and shoot 3's so I think he can be a good off the ball player and help spread the more. He is def not useless off the ball. As a team we were poor with off the ball movement so I think that is more on coaching and lack of a system last year. Hopefully that changes this year.

My issue isn’t with his %’s but the fact when he isn’t creating isolation opportunities for himself he doesn’t avail himself to other opportunities to score .

No real spotting up
No cutting off ball really
And it’s not like he’s creating hockey assists either or screen assists either getting people open or moving the ball to get others shots

If he doesn’t have the ball in his hands he plays like he’s not interested

If he were a harden-level iso scorer worthy of being the 1st option it would be more excusable

But his usage was at 21.5 that’s barely an offensive player

His lack of offensive drive actually makes it harder for the other players around him because in spite of his percentages he isn’t spacing the floor

No team is going to scheme to stop .8 makes a game.

I agree that Trier needs to do some things better. But I think its possible.

Again, nobody on the team moved off the ball well. We were probably the worst team in the league in that area. I put some of that on the coaching. We need to incorporate a system with more movement, where last year we had no system. Trier does need to get better and was not good at moving off the ball. It should be something he can improve though. Maybe he will never be a good cutter, but he should be able to find spots beyond the 3-point line and get open on the perimeter off the ball. It'll take some teaching though.

[god shammgod]

Not knocking RJ, and not sure he'll be different in the more open spaces of the NBA - but also with everyone an NBA caliber defender, but aren't some of the knocks on him that he's a bit mechanical and also his handle needs some work? Is that the person you want with the ball in their hands the vast majority of the time as a rookie?

Maybe a secondary role, with the potential for more primary touches initiating the offense, IF he's capable, later on in the season. Or it could be setting him up for some early failure instead of success?

his handle needs to get a little better but, as you say, the spacing of the nba will help him and his size at the 2 will let him see over the defense a lot. but it's also why you play with him trier who can shoot, so he has good spacing, and can also handle the ball and be a secondary facilitator. i think he'll actually make better reads than dennis or frank. don't listen to me, listen to this guy. he knows a thing or two.

Read on Twitter

that's a totally unbiased opinion.

Maybe I recall other posts by you, but I was wondering if you were going to suggest Trier next to him, as Payton, Frank and DSJr aren't necessarily reliable enough shooters. But that might change, considering DSJr seems to have put in a lot of work and maybe Frank turned the corner. Payton, I'll assume he is what he is, for now.

i've been doing that for months

[MadGrinch]

well, while everyone fights between them, i'm not a big fan of dennis or frank. trier at least has shown that he has an actual nba skill-set that's useful. i can't really say that about those other two. and it's also about who fits with rj. rj has to start because him being successful is the most important goal for this franchise going forward. more than winning games or making the playoffs, the main goal for this year should be making sure he's catered to and developed. he's the highest draft pick in 30 something years. if he fails it's real bad for everyone involved. i would rather the knicks win 17 games and he's in the rookie of the year conversation than them make the playoffs and he has a lackluster year. they're selling the knicks being good as important to attract free agents but him being good is really more important.

the thing about Trier is that he's almost useless when he's not iso'ing because he doesn't move without the ball , his shots per minute are basically even with dotson .

his usage is less than virtually every offensive player on the roster last season and on a 65 loss team with many of it younger players are taking more of an offensive initiative, that has to be a major red flag.

yet, at the same time, he was the ONLY guard that shot the ball at a decent percentage, inside and outside the arc. As such, I fully expect him to compete for the 6th man role.

I don’t I expect the 6th man to be portis and if not him DSjr

It’s hard to elevate a guy when he has issues on both sides of the ball vs guys who just have issues on one side

[3toheadmelo]

i'm searching for evidence ....and the ringer agrees with me

The good and bad of RJ Barrett was on display at Las Vegas summer league. Barrett, who was called “Maple Mamba” as a teenager in Canada, played like a bad parody of Kobe Bryant in his first two games with the Knicks. The no. 3 pick forced the issue on offense and hunted for his own shot without any regard for his teammates. He was a different player in their last three games: He played within himself, moved the ball, and took what the defense gave him.

The difference in his statistics was staggering. Not only did Barrett rack up more assists while turning over the ball less, he also became a more efficient scorer.

Barrett has a lot going for him. At 6-foot-7 and 202 pounds with a 6-foot-10 wingspan, he’s a 19-year-old with the chiseled frame of an older player. He knows how to use his size to get into the lane and score over smaller defenders, as well as to create space to shoot off the dribble. Barrett is an aggressive player who finds ways to score even on nights when his shot isn’t falling. He always plays hard and has a nose for the ball.

But for all his talent, he’s not talented enough to be a one-man offense in the NBA. The biggest issue is his inconsistent outside shot. Barrett shot a lot of 3s in his one season at Duke (6.2 per game) but didn’t make enough (30.8 percent) to force defenders to guard him on the perimeter. His poor free throw shooting (66.5 percent on 5.9 attempts per game) is an even bigger red flag, as that number is often a better indicator of a prospect’s ability to shoot from the deeper NBA 3-point line.

Barrett also doesn’t have the über-athleticism to get to the rim at will and finish in traffic. He’s a good but not great athlete who depends on being able to bully smaller defenders. He doesn’t have a Plan B when matched up with NBA-caliber defenders who have the size and athleticism to hang with him physically. According to the tracking numbers at Synergy Sports, Barrett was only in the 43rd percentile of NCAA players last season when scoring in the lane. Most of those attempts came in traffic, when he tried to force something instead of finding an open teammate after he drew a crowd.

Barrett is at his best as a point forward, where he can balance scoring and passing. He’s a smart player who can see over the top of the defense and whip the ball across the court while driving to the basket. Moving the ball also makes him less predictable. Without the threat of the pass, it’s too easy for defenders to anticipate what he will do when he lowers his shoulder and tries to finish every drive that he starts. That’s why he racked up so many offensive fouls in his first two games in Vegas.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/8/8/20756167/rj-barrett-new-york-knicks

[god shammgod]

i'm searching for evidence ....and the ringer agrees with me

The good and bad of RJ Barrett was on display at Las Vegas summer league. Barrett, who was called “Maple Mamba” as a teenager in Canada, played like a bad parody of Kobe Bryant in his first two games with the Knicks. The no. 3 pick forced the issue on offense and hunted for his own shot without any regard for his teammates. He was a different player in their last three games: He played within himself, moved the ball, and took what the defense gave him.

The difference in his statistics was staggering. Not only did Barrett rack up more assists while turning over the ball less, he also became a more efficient scorer.

Barrett has a lot going for him. At 6-foot-7 and 202 pounds with a 6-foot-10 wingspan, he’s a 19-year-old with the chiseled frame of an older player. He knows how to use his size to get into the lane and score over smaller defenders, as well as to create space to shoot off the dribble. Barrett is an aggressive player who finds ways to score even on nights when his shot isn’t falling. He always plays hard and has a nose for the ball.

But for all his talent, he’s not talented enough to be a one-man offense in the NBA. The biggest issue is his inconsistent outside shot. Barrett shot a lot of 3s in his one season at Duke (6.2 per game) but didn’t make enough (30.8 percent) to force defenders to guard him on the perimeter. His poor free throw shooting (66.5 percent on 5.9 attempts per game) is an even bigger red flag, as that number is often a better indicator of a prospect’s ability to shoot from the deeper NBA 3-point line.

Barrett also doesn’t have the über-athleticism to get to the rim at will and finish in traffic. He’s a good but not great athlete who depends on being able to bully smaller defenders. He doesn’t have a Plan B when matched up with NBA-caliber defenders who have the size and athleticism to hang with him physically. According to the tracking numbers at Synergy Sports, Barrett was only in the 43rd percentile of NCAA players last season when scoring in the lane. Most of those attempts came in traffic, when he tried to force something instead of finding an open teammate after he drew a crowd.

Barrett is at his best as a point forward, where he can balance scoring and passing. He’s a smart player who can see over the top of the defense and whip the ball across the court while driving to the basket. Moving the ball also makes him less predictable. Without the threat of the pass, it’s too easy for defenders to anticipate what he will do when he lowers his shoulder and tries to finish every drive that he starts. That’s why he racked up so many offensive fouls in his first two games in Vegas.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/8/8/20756167/rj-barrett-new-york-knicks

stop trying to hype up souped up mudiay. this is rj and mitch's team and you'll like it.

[god shammgod]

also, stop saying rj can't defend mpharris

The Knicks need Barrett more on defense than on offense. They had the no. 26-rated defense in the NBA last season, and the only defensive-minded players they added are Bullock, who is out indefinitely with a back injury, and Gibson, an undersized big man whose athleticism is fading. Barrett is the rare young player who could contribute immediately on that end of the floor. Not only does he have the physical tools to match up with players at multiple positions on the perimeter, he was the primary perimeter defender on the no. 6 defense in college. Barrett had good defensive numbers: He was in the 72nd percentile of NCAA players when defending the ball handler in the pick-and-roll, and in the 80th percentile when defending isolations.

you're creating a false narrative so you can hype up pepe le putrid-on-offense

[god shammgod]

the gloves are off lol

[Capn'O]

he wasn't in that role because westbrook was there. and because of that he wasn't ever really able to reach his full potential until he left for another team where he could be in that role full time. nobody was really sure how good he was until he left. he was somewhat held back. if he wasn't they might have really known what they had.

look, i've said it earlier, i'm mostly interested in doing everything possible to make rj succeed and this is to me how he's gonna succeed. he's not the shooter harden is, correct. so as an off the ball player he won't be that successful. he needs the ball.

Not knocking RJ, and not sure he'll be different in the more open spaces of the NBA - but also with everyone an NBA caliber defender, but aren't some of the knocks on him that he's a bit mechanical and also his handle needs some work? Is that the person you want with the ball in their hands the vast majority of the time as a rookie?

Maybe a secondary role, with the potential for more primary touches initiating the offense, IF he's capable, later on in the season. Or it could be setting him up for some early failure instead of success?

his handle needs to get a little better but, as you say, the spacing of the nba will help him and his size at the 2 will let him see over the defense a lot. but it's also why you play with him trier who can shoot, so he has good spacing, and can also handle the ball and be a secondary facilitator. i think he'll actually make better reads than dennis or frank. don't listen to me, listen to this guy. he knows a thing or two.

Read on Twitter

that's a totally unbiased opinion.

You just like him because he makes good passes to Mitch.

[Capn'O]

pepe le putrid-on-offense

[3toheadmelo]

i'm searching for evidence ....and the ringer agrees with me





https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/8/8/20756167/rj-barrett-new-york-knicks

stop trying to hype up souped up mudiay. this is rj and mitch's team and you'll like it.

You take that back

[MadGrinch]

Trier shot 44% on catch and shoot 3's so I think he can be a good off the ball player and help spread the more. He is def not useless off the ball. As a team we were poor with off the ball movement so I think that is more on coaching and lack of a system last year. Hopefully that changes this year.

My issue isn’t with his %’s but the fact when he isn’t creating isolation opportunities for himself he doesn’t avail himself to other opportunities to score .

No real spotting up
No cutting off ball really
And it’s not like he’s creating hockey assists either or screen assists either getting people open or moving the ball to get others shots

If he doesn’t have the ball in his hands he plays like he’s not interested

If he were a harden-level iso scorer worthy of being the 1st option it would be more excusable

But his usage was at 21.5 that’s barely an offensive player

His lack of offensive drive actually makes it harder for the other players around him because in spite of his percentages he isn’t spacing the floor

No team is going to scheme to stop .8 makes a game.

I agree that Trier needs to do some things better. But I think its possible.

Again, nobody on the team moved off the ball well. We were probably the worst team in the league in that area. I put some of that on the coaching. We need to incorporate a system with more movement, where last year we had no system. Trier does need to get better and was not good at moving off the ball. It should be something he can improve though. Maybe he will never be a good cutter, but he should be able to find spots beyond the 3-point line and get open on the perimeter off the ball. It'll take some teaching though.

I’m not evaluating him against the league but against his teammates
I understand the knicks were bad but Fizdale is preaching more 3s and everyone got the memo but Kadeem and trier and they shot the highest percentages but Allen will start the season in westchester and signed Payton and for trier they signed not 1 but 2 2 guards who specialize in shooting 3s

The knicks shot over 500 more 3s last season than the previous year and they added shooting to that team , and you say nobody moved well off the ball but every perimeter player on the roster that played regular put up at least 4.5 3s per 36 minutes

Except Allen and trier who were at 3.1 and 3.3 respectively

You want to spread blame but everyone else managed to do it

I don’t think trier will play if he can’t adhere to his coaches wishes on either side of the ball when others are

[god shammgod]

My issue isn’t with his %’s but the fact when he isn’t creating isolation opportunities for himself he doesn’t avail himself to other opportunities to score .

No real spotting up
No cutting off ball really
And it’s not like he’s creating hockey assists either or screen assists either getting people open or moving the ball to get others shots

If he doesn’t have the ball in his hands he plays like he’s not interested

If he were a harden-level iso scorer worthy of being the 1st option it would be more excusable

But his usage was at 21.5 that’s barely an offensive player

His lack of offensive drive actually makes it harder for the other players around him because in spite of his percentages he isn’t spacing the floor

No team is going to scheme to stop .8 makes a game.

I agree that Trier needs to do some things better. But I think its possible.

Again, nobody on the team moved off the ball well. We were probably the worst team in the league in that area. I put some of that on the coaching. We need to incorporate a system with more movement, where last year we had no system. Trier does need to get better and was not good at moving off the ball. It should be something he can improve though. Maybe he will never be a good cutter, but he should be able to find spots beyond the 3-point line and get open on the perimeter off the ball. It'll take some teaching though.

I’m not evaluating him against the league but against his teammates
I understand the knicks were bad but Fizdale is preaching more 3s and everyone got the memo but Kadeem and trier and they shot the highest percentages but Allen will start the season in westchester and signed Payton and for trier they signed not 1 but 2 2 guards who specialize in shooting 3s

The knicks shot over 500 more 3s last season than the previous year and they added shooting to that team , and you say nobody moved well off the ball but every perimeter player on the roster that played regular put up at least 4.5 3s per 36 minutes

Except Allen and trier who were at 3.1 and 3.3 respectively

You want to spread blame but everyone else managed to do it

I don’t think trier will play if he can’t adhere to his coaches wishes on either side of the ball when others are

they told him specifically that he had to take more 3s and he spent the summer focusing on it

Read on Twitter

“It’s something Coach talked to me about,” Trier said in The Athletic story. “‘You shoot it so good.’ And the front office talked to me about [how] I need to shoot more 3s off the catch, as soon as I can get it let it fly. They said you have such a beautiful stroke and shoot such a high percentage that you have to get more off so you can get — according to analytics, the more I get off and I shoot at a high percentage then it’ll be good for us. Not only myself but as a basketball team, so that’s one thing I’ve been focused on doing.”

[Clyde_Style]

stop trying to hype up souped up mudiay. this is rj and mitch's team and you'll like it.

You take that back

So Emo

[Deeeez Knicks]

My issue isn’t with his %’s but the fact when he isn’t creating isolation opportunities for himself he doesn’t avail himself to other opportunities to score .

No real spotting up
No cutting off ball really
And it’s not like he’s creating hockey assists either or screen assists either getting people open or moving the ball to get others shots

If he doesn’t have the ball in his hands he plays like he’s not interested

If he were a harden-level iso scorer worthy of being the 1st option it would be more excusable

But his usage was at 21.5 that’s barely an offensive player

His lack of offensive drive actually makes it harder for the other players around him because in spite of his percentages he isn’t spacing the floor

No team is going to scheme to stop .8 makes a game.

I agree that Trier needs to do some things better. But I think its possible.

Again, nobody on the team moved off the ball well. We were probably the worst team in the league in that area. I put some of that on the coaching. We need to incorporate a system with more movement, where last year we had no system. Trier does need to get better and was not good at moving off the ball. It should be something he can improve though. Maybe he will never be a good cutter, but he should be able to find spots beyond the 3-point line and get open on the perimeter off the ball. It'll take some teaching though.

I’m not evaluating him against the league but against his teammates
I understand the knicks were bad but Fizdale is preaching more 3s and everyone got the memo but Kadeem and trier and they shot the highest percentages but Allen will start the season in westchester and signed Payton and for trier they signed not 1 but 2 2 guards who specialize in shooting 3s

The knicks shot over 500 more 3s last season than the previous year and they added shooting to that team , and you say nobody moved well off the ball but every perimeter player on the roster that played regular put up at least 4.5 3s per 36 minutes

Except Allen and trier who were at 3.1 and 3.3 respectively

You want to spread blame but everyone else managed to do it

I don’t think trier will play if he can’t adhere to his coaches wishes on either side of the ball when others are

But how many of those 3's were off good movement and spacing? We were 2nd to last in the league in spot up jumpers, last in assists, 3rd to last in 3 point %, 22nd in 3 point attempts...There were a lot of times when Timmy/Burke/Mudiay were chucking up bad 3's. The numbers and results didn't match what Fiz was preaching, and it wasn't just Allen and Trier.

I do agree Trier needs to shoot more 3s. It seems like he is working on it. But if the offense in general doesn't get better and Fiz doesn't establish a system none of it will matter. Players will go back to bad habits. It has to be good 3 point attempts, and not just taking 3's just to take them.

Trier at least showed he can knock them down. He needs to get better at other things, but its fixable and he can get better in those things.

[mpharris36]

also, stop saying rj can't defend mpharris

The Knicks need Barrett more on defense than on offense. They had the no. 26-rated defense in the NBA last season, and the only defensive-minded players they added are Bullock, who is out indefinitely with a back injury, and Gibson, an undersized big man whose athleticism is fading. Barrett is the rare young player who could contribute immediately on that end of the floor. Not only does he have the physical tools to match up with players at multiple positions on the perimeter, he was the primary perimeter defender on the no. 6 defense in college. Barrett had good defensive numbers: He was in the 72nd percentile of NCAA players when defending the ball handler in the pick-and-roll, and in the 80th percentile when defending isolations.

you're creating a false narrative so you can hype up pepe le putrid-on-offense

U done f*cked up now

[CharlesOakley]

Trier has a ceiling of a good NBA bench player. I don't see him as a starter in this league. He is too small and unathletic to defend starting-caliber shooting guards. He is buckets off the bench.

Frank makes a ton of sense next to RJ. He will give a lot more playmaking opportunities to RJ and speed his development. He needs to be paired with Mitch to drastically improve our defense and he should mitigate some of RJ's defensive weaknesses.

Having said that, I don't think Frank starts (or even plays) and I don't see Trier getting that many minutes unless he learned to pass or defend. We have too many players that need minutes.

[MadGrinch]

I agree that Trier needs to do some things better. But I think its possible.

Again, nobody on the team moved off the ball well. We were probably the worst team in the league in that area. I put some of that on the coaching. We need to incorporate a system with more movement, where last year we had no system. Trier does need to get better and was not good at moving off the ball. It should be something he can improve though. Maybe he will never be a good cutter, but he should be able to find spots beyond the 3-point line and get open on the perimeter off the ball. It'll take some teaching though.

I’m not evaluating him against the league but against his teammates
I understand the knicks were bad but Fizdale is preaching more 3s and everyone got the memo but Kadeem and trier and they shot the highest percentages but Allen will start the season in westchester and signed Payton and for trier they signed not 1 but 2 2 guards who specialize in shooting 3s

The knicks shot over 500 more 3s last season than the previous year and they added shooting to that team , and you say nobody moved well off the ball but every perimeter player on the roster that played regular put up at least 4.5 3s per 36 minutes

Except Allen and trier who were at 3.1 and 3.3 respectively

You want to spread blame but everyone else managed to do it

I don’t think trier will play if he can’t adhere to his coaches wishes on either side of the ball when others are

they told him specifically that he had to take more 3s and he spent the summer focusing on it

Read on Twitter

“It’s something Coach talked to me about,” Trier said in The Athletic story. “‘You shoot it so good.’ And the front office talked to me about [how] I need to shoot more 3s off the catch, as soon as I can get it let it fly. They said you have such a beautiful stroke and shoot such a high percentage that you have to get more off so you can get — according to analytics, the more I get off and I shoot at a high percentage then it’ll be good for us. Not only myself but as a basketball team, so that’s one thing I’ve been focused on doing.”

The thing is this isn’t new.

When Fizdale took over the grizzlies they shot over 600 more 3s than they did the previous season .

They have been coaching him all season , in preseason, summer league , he may be putting more emphasis on it alone this summer but everyone got the same instructions all year long .

So at the very least he’s behind everyone in this aspect of his game .

Combined Ellington and bullock shot 5 times as many 3s per minute as trier on different teams and they are his direct competition .

Dotson shot nearly twice as many 3s per minute as trier last season ...while being a better defender .

His obstacles to playing time are as steep if not steeper than frank and Dennis because almost certainly 1 of at least has to play

Trier does not have that luxury

[mpharris36]

the gloves are off lol

Just remember since I became a mod people started disappearing. Don’t be one of those people

[NYKAL]

I like Frank but, he can't hold Triers jockstrap. Trier was the ONLY guard (as I said) that shot at an acceptable level. The others aren't even NBA level. Frank look good with the French team but, lets be real, that does NOT always translate to the NBA. He has a lot to prove before he can even be in the conversation with any of the guard on this team.

[moocow007]

Trier has a ceiling of a good NBA bench player. I don't see him as a starter in this league. He is too small and unathletic to defend starting-caliber shooting guards. He is buckets off the bench.

Frank makes a ton of sense next to RJ. He will give a lot more playmaking opportunities to RJ and speed his development. He needs to be paired with Mitch to drastically improve our defense and he should mitigate some of RJ's defensive weaknesses.

Having said that, I don't think Frank starts (or even plays) and I don't see Trier getting that many minutes unless he learned to pass or defend. We have too many players that need minutes.

According to hoopsgeek the average height of an NBA SG is 6'5" in shoes. Trier measured in at the combine at 6'5.25". So not sure that he's too small. He's not a uber athlete but he's not a plodder by any means. If Malcolm Brogdon (who is hardly an athlete and even less athletic than Tier) is athletic enough to be a starting PG so is Trier.

As far as defense? Here's what the DX folks stated:

Trier's physical talent far surpasses his mental diligence as a defender; he has a bad habit of losing his assignment away from the ball. And while he's undeniably active defending on-ball, that activity led to foul trouble and a bad habit of over-gambling as a freshman.

What Trier needs to do is to put in the work to improve the holes in his game. Can he? This from Sean Miller, his headcoach at Arizona:

“[He's] is the hardest worker I've ever had. I have never seen a player work like he has worked in the summer.”