PG: Knicks vs Suns- 11/21/24

[SelbyCobra]

I’ve never seen a Thibs team underachieve. He usually gets the best out of his team and sometimes they even overachieve but I don’t remember his teams underachieving.

For a guy who was said to be holding us back because we didn’t come out the gate firing on all cylinders he sure has us speeding down the interstate right now. Props to Thibs man, he’s part of this culture he’s helped build this he deserves credit. We aren’t where we are now without him.

I would agree with this simply because the attention to detail and the way he treats every game as a must win.

Now I have my concerns about regular season rotations (got to make it to the playoffs healthy) and his in game adjustments (especially in playoffs).

But I don't worry about the team underachieving. I think DOT mentioned it his ultimate success will be determined on where he gets this team in the playoffs.

I think in order to give yourself the best chance to have success in the playoffs you do have to position yourself towards the higher seed so Thibs will do that and then still catch heat for it. Yes he’s trying to win every game because every game does matter when it comes to playoff seeding and your ultimate success could very much come down to your seeding and the matchups you get throughout the playoffs. Thibs has the experience he’s been here before many times he’s aware of that and that’s what he aims for every year.

Thibs' experience of being there before can be quantified in this conversation.

Four times in his coaching career he's pushed a team to 50 regular season wins.

None of those teams made the NBA Finals, only one even made the Conference Finals where they produced a grand total of 1 win.

I agree that seeding can be very important, but historically it has never produced any benefit to a team led by Tom Thibodeau, despite him laying everything on the line in its pursuit.

[KnixinSix]

Happy that the talent is shining through, but haven't changed me feelings on Thibs one bit, either. Everything I was concerned about is still concerning to me.

It's kind of wild to be a Thibs team with a super efficient offense (2nd in offensive rating) but a terrible defense (21st in defensive rating)

The dead last pace kinda shows it though lol

Thibs is like Randle was gonna be this year to me. I kinda don't really care about what he shows in the regular season, it's all about playoffs.

The 2nd ranked offense is definitely eye-catching and makes my eyebrows raise initially, but after a moment to think it's not that crazy to me. Even with Thibs at the helm, it's Jalen Brunson & Karl-Anthony Towns taking majority of offensive focus, with a bunch of guys who are lethal taking corner threes. It'd be crazy if Thibs - even with his glaring lack of offensive modernity - was actually able to suppress that. I've said it a million times both before and after the trade, but KAT is one of the most efficient high volume scorers in the history of NBA basketball. Just looking at their career production, pairing him with a pretty efficient high-volume PG and other efficient players should lead to this kind of production if it isn't completely botched. But it's still jarring to see as Knicks fans, because we are decidedly not used to this level of excellence.

I actually kind of disagree with you and Cap about the playoffs being the measuring stick, though I do completely agree with comping Thibs to Randle. For me, Thibs and Randle are similar because they can raise the floor of a team by providing great production in specific areas. They can function as a pseudo star producer/coach at times, but when asked to grow their style or fit it to a different system, they've not shown to be as adaptable. I appreciated Julius for being an All-Star and All-NBA guy in a Knicks uniform based on his emotional/productive peaks and counting stats, and I also didn't have faith in him being a consistent, reliable producer because, well, he's shown over the years that things can and will go very south at times.

Thibs is the same way to me. He is what he is. A night in PHX where the offense shoots nearly 100% from the field over the first few minutes of the 1st Q, and finishes basically 60/50/90 as a team for the game, doesn't tell me much of anything about Thibs - it's just a red-hot night for an elite-talent roster. If he's continuously running out shortened rotations with viable bodies on the bench, vital players logging nearly 40 minutes in blowout wins, starters playing the closing seconds up double digits, cold shooting nights where there is clearly no offensive system to fall back on, 4th quarters where the most important players are gassed, and generally not adapting his schemes to the modern NBA - offensively OR defensively, I'm not willing to give him the chance to get hot or get lucky in the playoffs if given the choice - I already don't believe in who he is and what he does as a coach at a championship-expectation level.

It's like my opinion of Randle - he's a very good player, an all-star, and can make a big impact at times. But he also has established negative traits and production that he shows no indication of being able to move past, and hoping those qualities don't rear their head in the biggest moments is not a sound strategy for me. The Knicks could have won a championship with Randle, just as they can win one with Thibs, but the reliance on them being on them not lapsing into one of their periodically expected poor or exploitable effort/ideology is bad business to me.

I think the jury is still out on how Thibs can make this work. I think there is a chance he does

Thibs preferred system also relies on a rim protector and he will get that soon in Mitch and a bit more in Precious as well.

[Jalen Bluntson]

While having the worst bench in the league lead by Jericho Sims and Cam Payne with three G league bench players!

We lost several games because he refuses to trust his bench and we were gassed in the fourth quarter. See how this works?

I have been over the top critical of Thibs over the years but, he does a lot of dumb shyt that he has always done. Suddenly he plays guys when everyone is hurt that he refuses to play when they could be used to prevent things like this. It works both ways. The fact that he has more talent to mask his flaws doesn't excuse them. Putting starters in with a 24 point lead because it was a 30 point lead in the fourth quarter is a bit moronic.

He's a great coach. He's also a maniac. Both can be true. Both ARE true. We have depth. He needs to utilize it better than he does. He has always been this way. He goes all in for regular season wins far too often. His accolades are talent based. Not coaching based. Does he get more out of players? Absolutely. Does he expect too much out of his players? Absolutely. Has it hurt the team? Absolutely.

I am happy with him. I wanted him fired in the past but, whatever. We have a great starting 5 and we have depth beyond a 7 man rotation. Use it. That's what bothers people the most IMO.

I disagree about having depth after 7 players, and Sims is just passable now so really 6.. The three rookies are not NBA ready yet aside from some good moments. This is like last year when fans wanted guys like Charlie Brown jr to get rotation minutes.

There is possibly more chance of injury with the starters playing more until Deuce and Precious get back, but any injury will be blamed on Thibs anyway so fuq it get the win

But we didn't get the wins. We lost 3 games in the fourth quarter where we were using 6.5 man rotations. It's not just about injury. It's tired legs as well. So...yeah.

[SelbyCobra]

I actually kind of disagree with you and Cap about the playoffs being the measuring stick...

My stance is mostly what I expect to happen. Management won't do anything with Thibs this season but if he underperforms in the playoffs they might move on. I would have moved on from Thibs this summer if we knew we were likely getting KAT, which we almost certainly did.

I haven't entirely ruled out that he can make a champion from this group and we may differ there.

Nope - check the last line of that manifesto you shortened.

[TheGreenArrow]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=W09F6FrMDfp5_y1gKYgF1g

Kat Leveling up defensively Folkssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[K_ick_God]

Read on Twitter

his bachata album fire

Josh like the mythical Keyser Soze with his hair down

[Calinks]

Minny has a path to be a contender again... but probably have to shed Randle... they need a 3&D power forward badly. Then they can move Ant to the SF spot so they could start DDV and hope he recaptures his glory from last season. Lastly, they need to bring in a 3&D PG like a young Conley. Gobert, 3&D PF, Ant, DDV, and 3&D PG would be a really sweet team with Reid and even NAW off the bench. Maybe they find those guys in the draft or in a trade... their current roster make-up isn't going all the way.

I don't know about Ant at SF, at 6'4 he would be pretty undersized. We are hoping Dilingham can be our PG of the future. I don't think the front office views Randle as the PF of the future but I do think they like him. He is a potentially really good fit for our offense with his ability to attack and handle, it's a different kind of attack than Towns, he can navigate through congestion better. Towns is more potent when the floor is open and he can get going IMO but Julius is better when there is a big at the 5 like Gobert so far. Also Ant and Randle seem to have better 2 man chemistry than Towns and Ant did. Same goes for Towns and Brunson already.

[DOT]

I've said it a million times both before and after the trade, but KAT is one of the most efficient high volume scorers in the history of NBA basketball. Just looking at their career production, pairing him with a pretty efficient high-volume PG and other efficient players should lead to this kind of production if it isn't completely botched. But it's still jarring to see as Knicks fans, because we are decidedly not used to this level of excellence.

Crazy part is, KAT is averaging career highs in both ppg and TS, yet is playing the 3rd-least mpg of his career (career high mpg seasons were both years Thibs was his HC in Minny lol)

[MrDollarBills]

On another note, I'm watching the replay of last night

Man Jamal Crawford is REALLY good. Spot on analysis, and he makes great analogies too. If I'm NBC I'm calling his agent TODAY.

I'm a sucker for good color analysis. Clyde, Monica, and now J Crossover....this fanbase is really well served on the TV side.

[Jeff Van Gully]

On another note, I'm watching the replay of last night

Man Jamal Crawford is REALLY good. Spot on analysis, and he makes great analogies too. If I'm NBC I'm calling his agent TODAY.

I'm a sucker for good color analysis. Clyde, Monica, and now J Crossover....this fanbase is really well served on the TV side.

i'm gonna watch that on league pass as soon as it's available. was really excited for his debut.

[Calinks]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=W09F6FrMDfp5_y1gKYgF1g

Kat Leveling up defensively Folkssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's how he prefers to play and plays best, when he can chase and press up on guys. He doesn't like backpedaling and defending the basket but pressing up and challenging, getting in passing lanes, etc. he enjoys. Keeps him engaged and energized. It can get him in trouble with silly fouls but he plays his best defense with that kind of scheme.

[3toheadmelo]

Minny has a path to be a contender again... but probably have to shed Randle... they need a 3&D power forward badly. Then they can move Ant to the SF spot so they could start DDV and hope he recaptures his glory from last season. Lastly, they need to bring in a 3&D PG like a young Conley. Gobert, 3&D PF, Ant, DDV, and 3&D PG would be a really sweet team with Reid and even NAW off the bench. Maybe they find those guys in the draft or in a trade... their current roster make-up isn't going all the way.

I don't know about Ant at SF, at 6'4 he would be pretty undersized. We are hoping Dilingham can be our PG of the future. I don't think the front office views Randle as the PF of the future but I do think they like him. He is a potentially really good fit for our offense with his ability to attack and handle, it's a different kind of attack than Towns, he can navigate through congestion better. Towns is more potent when the floor is open and he can get going IMO but Julius is better when there is a big at the 5 like Gobert so far. Also Ant and Randle seem to have better 2 man chemistry than Towns and Ant did. Same goes for Towns and Brunson already.

Sounds like a win win trade!

[HEZI]

I would agree with this simply because the attention to detail and the way he treats every game as a must win.

Now I have my concerns about regular season rotations (got to make it to the playoffs healthy) and his in game adjustments (especially in playoffs).

But I don't worry about the team underachieving. I think DOT mentioned it his ultimate success will be determined on where he gets this team in the playoffs.

I think in order to give yourself the best chance to have success in the playoffs you do have to position yourself towards the higher seed so Thibs will do that and then still catch heat for it. Yes he’s trying to win every game because every game does matter when it comes to playoff seeding and your ultimate success could very much come down to your seeding and the matchups you get throughout the playoffs. Thibs has the experience he’s been here before many times he’s aware of that and that’s what he aims for every year.

Thibs' experience of being there before can be quantified in this conversation.

Four times in his coaching career he's pushed a team to 50 regular season wins.

None of those teams made the NBA Finals, only one even made the Conference Finals where they produced a grand total of 1 win.

I agree that seeding can be very important, but historically it has never produced any benefit to a team led by Tom Thibodeau, despite him laying everything on the line in its pursuit.

Which one of those teams underachieved? He pretty much got the best out of those groups and they went as far as the roster was going to go. Bulls not being able to overcome Lebron and the Cheat isn’t on Thibs. Nobody in the East was getting passed them. The young pup Timberwolves being in the Western Conference and not ready to hang with the big boys of the West at that time wasn’t on Thibs. There are coaches who have gotten further than Thibs that I would never want coaching this team so this point is pretty weak imo

[mpharris36]

I think in order to give yourself the best chance to have success in the playoffs you do have to position yourself towards the higher seed so Thibs will do that and then still catch heat for it. Yes he’s trying to win every game because every game does matter when it comes to playoff seeding and your ultimate success could very much come down to your seeding and the matchups you get throughout the playoffs. Thibs has the experience he’s been here before many times he’s aware of that and that’s what he aims for every year.

Thibs' experience of being there before can be quantified in this conversation.

Four times in his coaching career he's pushed a team to 50 regular season wins.

None of those teams made the NBA Finals, only one even made the Conference Finals where they produced a grand total of 1 win.

I agree that seeding can be very important, but historically it has never produced any benefit to a team led by Tom Thibodeau, despite him laying everything on the line in its pursuit.

Which one of those teams underachieved? He pretty much got the best out of those groups and they went as far as the roster was going to go. Bulls not being able to overcome Lebron and the Cheat isn’t on Thibs. Nobody in the East was getting passed them. The young pup Timberwolves being in the Western Conference and not ready to hang with the big boys of the West at that time wasn’t on Thibs. There are coaches who have gotten further than Thibs that I would never want coaching this team so this point is pretty weak imo

The Minny and Bulls teams might have won more if they weren't injured...we should have advanced past Indy last year if we weren't injured.

I know you don't want to shoulder any injury blame on thibs but it still seems to be a common theme with his teams. He does need to shoulder some of that blame.

[Knicksfan1992]

As many here know I'm more pro-Thibs than not. I think his positives have proven to far outweigh his negatives IMO. I get the concerns with minute management to an extent but tend to think they are overblown because of a general lack of knowledge of sports science amongst sports fans. And how individualized that kind of science should be applied to each person or, in this case, athlete when, generally, the response becomes "well he's been playing too much" after a player gets hurt...

For instance, looking back at Derrick Rose, many blame Thibs for his injury riddled career but, from what we now know about how knee injuries occur, specifically about how landing mechanics and the force of an athlete play into them... it's just hard to imagine any organization or coach at that time preventing him from getting injured given his extremely violent change of direction movements and tendency to land on one leg early in his career.

Anyway, I find that kind of discussion nauseating and annoyingly cyclical to the point where nothing gets accomplished so I'll end it there.

Point being, even as a pro-Thibs guy, I do admit that this year is definitely a measuring stick season for him. I'm not all the way there on saying it should be Finals or bust because Boston is historically good and Cleveland has started out super strong. But if the Knicks whimper out of the playoffs whether by injury or just by being beat handily, then serious questions need to be asked of the coach because there isn't much they can do personnel wise to fix it. And, ultimately, this teams goal should be to win the championship. And if that's the realistic goal, then your azz better look like it come playoff time.

I don't think it's being overtly harsh to say that. Again coming from a person who likes having Thibs as our coach.

[SelbyCobra]

I've said it a million times both before and after the trade, but KAT is one of the most efficient high volume scorers in the history of NBA basketball. Just looking at their career production, pairing him with a pretty efficient high-volume PG and other efficient players should lead to this kind of production if it isn't completely botched. But it's still jarring to see as Knicks fans, because we are decidedly not used to this level of excellence.

Crazy part is, KAT is averaging career highs in both ppg and TS, yet is playing the 3rd-least mpg of his career (career high mpg seasons were both years Thibs was his HC in Minny lol)

Yeah, I think the potential for there to be more to unlock in a guy already established as an historically efficient multi-level scorer is why some people were in on the idea of pairing a guy like Brunson with KAT, despite all his obvious short-comings and/or undesirables. They just fit together both in play style and team-focused skills/mentality.

I do wonder though how much the knee scare slowed the minutes down, because leading up to it, coach was really starting to put KAT on the Thibs diet. He started him off slow, easing him in, then 5 games before the knee injury he played him 38, 32, 39, 38, and 39 minutes. He sat the two games with the bruise, then has come back on a lesser 30, 25, 34 sequence.

But it's insane just how consistently good he is at simply putting the ball through the hoop. One of the craziest parts of the experience so far is cheering for a team whose center is a 7 footer that can take the ball in the paint, bang with opposing defenders, bully his way to the rim, get physically assaulted into a heap on the floor, get up, walk to the line...

...and be the best FT shooter on the team.

[Calinks]

Minny has a path to be a contender again... but probably have to shed Randle... they need a 3&D power forward badly. Then they can move Ant to the SF spot so they could start DDV and hope he recaptures his glory from last season. Lastly, they need to bring in a 3&D PG like a young Conley. Gobert, 3&D PF, Ant, DDV, and 3&D PG would be a really sweet team with Reid and even NAW off the bench. Maybe they find those guys in the draft or in a trade... their current roster make-up isn't going all the way.

I don't know about Ant at SF, at 6'4 he would be pretty undersized. We are hoping Dilingham can be our PG of the future. I don't think the front office views Randle as the PF of the future but I do think they like him. He is a potentially really good fit for our offense with his ability to attack and handle, it's a different kind of attack than Towns, he can navigate through congestion better. Towns is more potent when the floor is open and he can get going IMO but Julius is better when there is a big at the 5 like Gobert so far. Also Ant and Randle seem to have better 2 man chemistry than Towns and Ant did. Same goes for Towns and Brunson already.

Sounds like a win win trade!

When you consider everything, including the financial side, I think it is. I believer overall the Timberwolves can be roughly as good (maybe a little worse or even potentially a little better) this season. We traded defense for offense and more versatilty. We have a lot more flexibility moving forward when it comes to managing the roster, we were very stuck with Towns and the apron.

The Knicks IMO got a clear upgrade at the 5 and someone who can carry the offense. Personally I think Towns is pretty much a number 1 option except I also believe with the modern NBA rules, your number 1 guy needs to be a guard to win a chip. It's just too easy for bigs to get disrupted, the rules favor guards/wings heavily when it comes to defenses being able to stop them.

New York is a fantastic fit because Towns can still be a 1A or B option much of the time but he has a legitimately elite closer playing with him in Brunson. Brunson should be the guy to get the ball at the end of games, the odds will be in his favor, Towns is talented enough to carry the torch any other time IMO.

I didn't want Towns to go but seeing how things are, if I had to pick a spot for him, there isn't a finer one.

[HEZI]

Thibs' experience of being there before can be quantified in this conversation.

Four times in his coaching career he's pushed a team to 50 regular season wins.

None of those teams made the NBA Finals, only one even made the Conference Finals where they produced a grand total of 1 win.

I agree that seeding can be very important, but historically it has never produced any benefit to a team led by Tom Thibodeau, despite him laying everything on the line in its pursuit.

Which one of those teams underachieved? He pretty much got the best out of those groups and they went as far as the roster was going to go. Bulls not being able to overcome Lebron and the Cheat isn’t on Thibs. Nobody in the East was getting passed them. The young pup Timberwolves being in the Western Conference and not ready to hang with the big boys of the West at that time wasn’t on Thibs. There are coaches who have gotten further than Thibs that I would never want coaching this team so this point is pretty weak imo

The Minny and Bulls teams might have won more if they weren't injured...we should have advanced past Indy last year if we weren't injured.

I know you don't want to shoulder any injury blame on thibs but it still seems to be a common theme with his teams. He does need to shoulder some of that blame.

This is scapegoating. No coach has been able to prevent injuries because they are simply part of the game

[NYKinMIA]

his bachata album fire

Read on Twitter

Josh must have seen this and refuses to have a bad game now

love durand bernarr so much

fruity as pebbles but he can go

[mpharris36]

Which one of those teams underachieved? He pretty much got the best out of those groups and they went as far as the roster was going to go. Bulls not being able to overcome Lebron and the Cheat isn’t on Thibs. Nobody in the East was getting passed them. The young pup Timberwolves being in the Western Conference and not ready to hang with the big boys of the West at that time wasn’t on Thibs. There are coaches who have gotten further than Thibs that I would never want coaching this team so this point is pretty weak imo

The Minny and Bulls teams might have won more if they weren't injured...we should have advanced past Indy last year if we weren't injured.

I know you don't want to shoulder any injury blame on thibs but it still seems to be a common theme with his teams. He does need to shoulder some of that blame.

This is scapegoating. No coach has been able to prevent injuries because they are simply part of the game

that just not fair.

if a coach played his starters all 48 minutes every game you still wouldn't say that?

Its not just black and white...there is a grey area here.

Is every injury thibs related....no
Is every injury related to minutes distribution....no

could extensive minutes and wear and tear potentially lead to more injuries....yes

you can't just say every injury is just happenstance. That is a bad faith argument.

I'm not putting all the blame on him...but its wildly considered in the NBA that Thibs is a lunatic...even on ESPN last night Bob Myers asked why are the Knicks starters still in...when the PHX starters were removed. If someone got injured in that stretch would that not be on thibs and just "part of the game"?