Breaking: KAT to the Knicks

[thebuzzardman]

Nothing > KAT for $60 million

So being over the cap with no way of signing players is better than acquiring one of the best bigs in the league? Yeah, okay

I think y'all don't realize how this second apron works or why teams are so adamant about staying under it. Unless you're a dynasty already going over the second apron will cripple your franchise for the foreseeable future. KAT is always a major injury risk. It's possible KAT is hurt, were over the 2nd apron twice due to his contract, and a pick that should be a lottery pick ends up the 30th pick due to the new CBA rules. Guys like KAT and Beal are team crippling right now.

I realize I have 14 pages to catch up to, so this is probably answered, but will KAT's salary truly push them over as it increases?

I'm not doubting you, I'm just wondering. Like, in past CBAs, there was salary that was taken on, that teams paid, that didn't count; pretty sure that was when teams re-signed their own FA. How the NBA wanted to encourage star players to stay on their original team etc.

So, as of right now, we know the Knicks are flirting with the 2nd apron, but haven't gone over. I'll assume they don't go over this season.

I know Aller is really good at managing this stuff so I'd be surprised if he was onboard with the Knicks making a move that pushes them over the 2nd apron, at the least, early in the deal - the only thing I could possibly think is that he caved and figured going over in KAT's final season or two might be a compromise he was willing to make. Obviously the ultimate decision is with Leon Rose so maybe Aller's advice got overruled.

If true, it's problematic, as Knicks will have to shed a low-mid to mid sized contract in a few years. Like a Hart sized one. Or Mitch.

Richard4444444 or BX#&H5J%8 usually understand this stuff. StLouisHawks guy too.

*edit - Was Brock Aller the voice in the Knicks FO alluded to as "Not everyone in Knicks FO likes the deal" ?

[thebuzzardman]

I realize it. Once the FO traded 5 FRPs for Mikal and traded the youth for OG, it became clear what direction we were going. And it’s all in right now. So a pick going from lottery to 30th means nothing to this team right now. The cap is continuing to go up as well, so we’ll see the cap hit it’ll be in a few years.

All in to me means significantly improving the roster. Not sacrificing depth and cap flexibility for two guys we'd be lucky to get a combined 82 games out of.

once we traded for OG (knowing we were going to pay him) and then traded for Mikal knowing we will pay him...and extended Brunson...there is no more "capf lexiblity" is over...we officially signed the next 4-5 years we will be tax apron team. No getting out at this point. Randle leaving for nothing (for example) doesn't give us any additional flexibility (it just would happen what happened to ihart..he leaves and you can't replace him.

100% agreed the team went all in to be a cap 2nd apron team.

E-Balla is bringing up that Town's increases will throw them OVER the 2nd apron.

Is this true? That would suck, as it would push what happens to #1 picks out 7 years, and the Knicks already went ALL in in a 5 year window by trading 5 picks and doing...3 swaps? It's a lot.

To have a 1st rounder flip for 30th 2 years past that would kind of suck.

[thebuzzardman]

Randle could've been traded later, the MLE still exists, we still would've had access to waivers. A player like Hartenstein was signed using an exception that we would've still had access to before this move. Chances are Mitch is gone and not for any type of good replacement because we can't afford it. I really don't see us going above the 2nd apron for a 45 win squad.

if Randle opts out (clearly likely at this poin). How can we trade him with S&T less and less likely now under new CBA.

and how many teams are banging down the door to trade for Randle, who is an extremely talented player but awkward fit for a lot of teams. (he's not a floor spacer or a defender).

We won 50 games last year and added Mikal Bridges...how is this a 45 in team?

Last year we had incredible depth. Last year we had less injury prone players. This year we do not. It's really that simple.

Perfectly healthy this team is better than last year perfectly healthy. But that's not how the NBA works, and perfectly healthy teams in 2024 are rare. KAT is more likely to play under 30 games as over 65 games, OG is basically a guarantee to miss half the season. We already only have a 7 man rotation. Last year we couldn't find minutes for Alec Burks with Julius Randle and Mitch out.

But iHart was already gone, and if that's the fault of the FO, it was one that already happened. Not going to go over the long debate over it, but essentially the FO didn't sign him to a deal that secured bird rights (fail?) and then OKC did a large payday the Knicks couldn't beat, being capped out at 17 or 18 million per, and he took the payday, as usually happens.

After that, we've lost Donte. That's the difference in the bench. Other than Burks and Bogs, who were deadline additions and not that good.

I'm not exactly weeping over losing Bates-Diop, who got stuffed into this trade after being Bridges trade filler, though he would have been nice as a tall athletic solid pro.

I get Morris and Shamet got cut so the Knicks could S&T Jeffries, Brown etc as part of sending salary to Charlotte, but I think one of them comes back.

Which bench are we talking about?

The one that began last season when Knicks still had iHart, Grimes starting, and Donte off the bench, but not Mitch, because he was hurt? Damn, almost forgot that had IQ too

The trade deadline one where the Knicks briefly had Mitch, Bogs, Burks and Donte starting?

The theoretical one that never made it to this season with Donte, Bates-Diop, Mitch- but he's out half the year, Payne, Precious, Morris or Shamet (probably Morris)?

Hart & Precious on all the benches, except the start of last season


Now it's Precious, Hart, Deuce, Payne, with Morris or Shamet probably clearing waivers and coming back. That's a good bench.

[thebuzzardman]

They were probably thinking they had good size and length on the perimeter and they can just have Towns chill in the middle. It's not a bad idea.. honestly. Especially if you think they want to score a lot of points.

Scoring is what the NBA is about now. Who on Indy is some high level defender...they are dangerous because they can score a lot.

They got swept. They're not dangerous. You can't out Celtics the Celtics.

Taking advantage of KP's weak rebounding seems to be the best way to attack that squad. Strong rebounding, strong wing defenders, and a PG that can dominate seems to be the best plan of attack if you ask me.

Brunson
Bridges
OG
Towns (yeah, he'll probably get cooked by Tatum)
Mitch

Sounds like the squad you mentioned.

Knicks can go "small" with:

Brunson
Bridges
Hart (or Deuce if Hart's 3 isn't falling)
OG
Towns

2nd lineup is a bench lineup and not meant to played starting minutes

[thebuzzardman]

Why does everyone keep saying that DiVincenzo was only going to get 15-20 minutes a game off the bench?

If we traded Duce McBride instead of DiVincenzo than DiVincenzo would be starting with Josh Hart as our 6th man.

a) The TWolves didn't want Deuce, they wanted Donte

b) Deuce makes about 10 million less per year than Donte and it would have been nearly impossible to work out this trade.

[thebuzzardman]

Let's break this down.

Nobody cares that Randle was traded. He's not the reason people don't like the trade.

The Knicks lost iHart, their hustle rebounder and best passing big man and one of the core dog mentality guys on the team.

The Knicks also lost their best 3 point shooter in Donte Divicenzo. Not only is he their best shooter - he can shoot off the catch, something Bridges and Brunson aren't as comfortable doing. Donte could shoot the 3 any which way and had a quick release. He was lethal for us and we just gave the dude away like he was nothing. "Oh he wasn't going to get minutes". There's still plenty of minutes there. OG misses 50% of every season. Having Donte off the bench wasn't a good idea?

The bench is clearly weaker with the loss of DDV and there is no replacement for him at all. Shamet is a journeyman who sucks now, unless he regains his early Clippers form. I'm the biggest McBride fan - even before anyone wanted to draft him - but he's limited offensively. Cam Payne is a streaky clown who has become a journeyman. Precious is a solid depth piece but you can put the burden on him; he also has zero offensive skills. Jericho Sims has even worse offensive skills than Precious. Kolek is a real nice intangible guy but I'm iffy on Thibs actually giving him a real shot - plus having a small backcourt of Kolek and McBride would be abused defensively by bigger guards.

Now, onto Towns. The acquisition changes the entire chemistry of the team. It's not about Randle. It's about how they'll be playing. More of an outside-in team than a gritty inside-out team. You'll see a lot of settling for jumpers - especially from Towns, who is a finesse player. Towns also can't play drop coverage on defense, which is a Thibs staple. He gets cooked routinely. He's simply below average overall defensively. Nobody is scared of driving it in on Towns and nobody is definitely not scared of Towns defending a pick and roll. This is not even mentioning Towns softness on and off the court - particularly off the court with him whining about the fans being unfair to him, etc. People who think some soft ass dude is going to all of a sudden become a completely different person because he put on a Knicks jersey are delusional. You just acquired a dude who is the opposite of how we played on the court last year in terms of hustle, basketball IQ and chemistry. You destroyed all that for someone who doesn't even guarantee you a Conference Finals and you're locked into $50+ million a season for a non-superstar for a minimum of 3 years, probably 4 years.

You lost your best and most crafty 3 point shooter and got worse defensively but you gained a 3 point shooting big who can space the floor.

We emptied our entire clip on Mikal Bridges and Karl Anthony Towns.

We have a couple of middling 1sts and 10 2nd round picks to work with for the next 5 years. We're hardcapped in the 2nd apron after this move probably. No assets to acquire anyone worthwhile for the foreseeable future moving forward.

How does anyone look at this trade and think we are an NBA Finals contender? This is a typical "Knicks look formidable on paper" move that ends up a disaster.

It's the same bench minus Donte. If you think it sucks, then it wasn't great with him, but losing Donte definitely hurts.

iHart was already gone, and that happens divorced from Bridges and KAT, though you can say that iHart leaving and Mitch perenially hurt make them more eager for this "bad" move.

Bridges is actually decent catch and shoot 3, but not Donte level.

Team was at the 2nd apron with Randle, especially after a theoretical extension etc, and I'm pretty sure damn close to it even if he left.

Trade might not work out ultimately but a lot of people on here trying too hard to make it all negative.

[gavran]

if Randle opts out (clearly likely at this poin). How can we trade him with S&T less and less likely now under new CBA.

and how many teams are banging down the door to trade for Randle, who is an extremely talented player but awkward fit for a lot of teams. (he's not a floor spacer or a defender).

We won 50 games last year and added Mikal Bridges...how is this a 45 in team?

Last year we had incredible depth. Last year we had less injury prone players. This year we do not. It's really that simple.

Perfectly healthy this team is better than last year perfectly healthy. But that's not how the NBA works, and perfectly healthy teams in 2024 are rare. KAT is more likely to play under 30 games as over 65 games, OG is basically a guarantee to miss half the season. We already only have a 7 man rotation. Last year we couldn't find minutes for Alec Burks with Julius Randle and Mitch out.

But iHart was already gone, and if that's the fault of the FO, it was one that already happened. Not going to go over the long debate over it, but essentially the FO didn't sign him to a deal that secured bird rights (fail?) and then OKC did a large payday the Knicks couldn't beat, being capped out at 17 or 18 million per, and he took the payday, as usually happens.

After that, we've lost Donte. That's the difference in the bench. Other than Burks and Bogs, who were deadline additions and not that good.

I'm not exactly weeping over losing Bates-Diop, who got stuffed into this trade after being Bridges trade filler, though he would have been nice as a tall athletic solid pro.

I get Morris and Shamet got cut so the Knicks could S&T Jeffries, Brown etc as part of sending salary to Charlotte, but I think one of them comes back.

Which bench are we talking about?

The one that began last season when Knicks still had iHart, Grimes starting, and Donte off the bench, but not Mitch, because he was hurt? Damn, almost forgot that had IQ too

The trade deadline one where the Knicks briefly had Mitch, Bogs, Burks and Donte starting?

The theoretical one that never made it to this season with Donte, Bates-Diop, Mitch- but he's out half the year, Payne, Precious, Morris or Shamet (probably Morris)?

Hart & Precious on all the benches, except the start of last season


Now it's Precious, Hart, Deuce, Payne, with Morris or Shamet probably clearing waivers and coming back. That's a good bench.

Shamet did not get cut, he is most likely making the roster.

[thebuzzardman]

sounds like a lot of people who analyze this think the wolves won the trade. sad.

they got the best player in the trade and somehow also got us to give up a top 5 3pt shooting wing along with him

we got completely and disrespectfully fleeced

Randle wasn't the best player in the trade. There's no one that believes that other than you. And Melo. Come on Jesus.

[thebuzzardman]

like if you want to say we will miss the extra playmaking randle provides and his ability to find corner 3 pt shooters I get that. That is certainly something we have to adjust with the trade. In theory we are hoping Mikal brings some added shot creation but that will still be something we have to make up a bit.

Rebounding is not one of them.

Defense etc aside

Bridges should replace SOME % of the secondary ballhandling/shot creation that Randle gave to the Knicks, in it's imperfect way (I think everyone would like a true handling wing as the 2nd shot creation guy and Bridges isn't elite there)

Towns replaces the ability to play in the high post and make passes like iHart did. Again, talking offense only here.

From what I've seen, Towns makes quicker decisions to shoot, pass or drive than Randle. I could be wrong, but in my years of watching basketball, though not in an expert way, that makes offenses work better.

Knicks also lose Donte's absolute flamethrower 3 point shooting, and Bridges is good, and much better 3 level scorer than Donte, but that will be missed.

Should be interesting. I still see this version as better on offense. Defense? Remains to be seen. Depends on Mitch playing 40 games.

[thebuzzardman]

Last year we had incredible depth. Last year we had less injury prone players. This year we do not. It's really that simple.

Perfectly healthy this team is better than last year perfectly healthy. But that's not how the NBA works, and perfectly healthy teams in 2024 are rare. KAT is more likely to play under 30 games as over 65 games, OG is basically a guarantee to miss half the season. We already only have a 7 man rotation. Last year we couldn't find minutes for Alec Burks with Julius Randle and Mitch out.

But iHart was already gone, and if that's the fault of the FO, it was one that already happened. Not going to go over the long debate over it, but essentially the FO didn't sign him to a deal that secured bird rights (fail?) and then OKC did a large payday the Knicks couldn't beat, being capped out at 17 or 18 million per, and he took the payday, as usually happens.

After that, we've lost Donte. That's the difference in the bench. Other than Burks and Bogs, who were deadline additions and not that good.

I'm not exactly weeping over losing Bates-Diop, who got stuffed into this trade after being Bridges trade filler, though he would have been nice as a tall athletic solid pro.

I get Morris and Shamet got cut so the Knicks could S&T Jeffries, Brown etc as part of sending salary to Charlotte, but I think one of them comes back.

Which bench are we talking about?

The one that began last season when Knicks still had iHart, Grimes starting, and Donte off the bench, but not Mitch, because he was hurt? Damn, almost forgot that had IQ too

The trade deadline one where the Knicks briefly had Mitch, Bogs, Burks and Donte starting?

The theoretical one that never made it to this season with Donte, Bates-Diop, Mitch- but he's out half the year, Payne, Precious, Morris or Shamet (probably Morris)?

Hart & Precious on all the benches, except the start of last season


Now it's Precious, Hart, Deuce, Payne, with Morris or Shamet probably clearing waivers and coming back. That's a good bench.

Shamet did not get cut, he is most likely making the roster.

Thanks for the heads up. Apologies for misidentifying you as Team Treadmill earlier

I think Morris clears waivers and comes back, under the table agreement etc.

Not that Shamet and Morris exactly moving the needle, but at least it's some kind of depth for the inevitable injuries.

[thebuzzardman]

If we traded Duce instead of DiVincenzo than DiVincenzo would still be starting at SG for us with Hart coming off the bench.

PG-Brunson
SG-DiVincenzo
SF-Bridges
PF-Anunoby
C-Towns
6th Hart

Then we would need to add ANOTHER 7mil to the deal on top of the 9 we were already short. How?

Randle, Robinson, McBride, Diop works in trade checker. Also we can still use the Jeffries sign & trade.

All REPORTING indicates the Knicks offered Mitch and Minny turned them down. Try again. This isn't ESPN trade checker. The other team has an actual say in who they want.

[gavran]

Thanks for the heads up. Apologies for misidentifying you as Team Treadmill earlier

It was a hate crime, but you are lucky I'm not an American I guess.

[god shammgod]

by the way i did the math.....people talk about mitch being unreliable due to health. not wrong but...

in the last 5 years.......

mitchell robinson has averaged 50.8 games a season
31, 59, 72, 31, 61

karl anthony towns has averaged 50 games a season
62, 29, 74, 50, 35,

good luck bozos

[thebuzzardman]

Deflection at its finest.

please explain the deflection...I'm answering every question. No one has come back when I provide actual rebound stats and contensted rebound stats. That is actual the very opposite of deflection I am backing up my statement with stats.

It's cherry picking to just compare Randle and towns rebounding when eballa has brought up many other valid complaints about towns. But that's not even the issue here.

The issue is that when we bring up Towns problems it's "look at Randle" yeah we all know Randle isnt it. That's a whole other topic. What were saying is towns is now our problem. And it gets deflected by Randle this Randle that.

There are TWO issues/comparisons with Randle/Towns.

One is what they bring/how they play on the floor

The OTHER is what they are paid, now, and in the future.

Knicks were/are hard capped just before the 2nd apron either way. We know Julius is due SOME kind of raise. Yes, it will be less than Towns. That shouldn't matter to us, other than IF KAT's pay raises push the Knicks over the 2nd apron, which would indeed be bad news.

I forgot to add in a reply to E-Balla that it might have been Brock Aller who was the "Some in the Knicks FO not that into the Towns trade"

Hope it's not true KAT pushes us over the 2nd apron in a year or two or three

[thebuzzardman]

OG at PF has bad written all over it. Save that for the playoffs unless we don't want him to make it there in the first place.

Is it though?

I'm wary of it too, but I feel like people view this like it's the mid 80's and OG would be banging with Oakley sized PFs for 40 mpg.

They'll be a lot of switches. Yeah, he'll be on some big guys. I don't think he gets more or less injured either way. He's just injury prone period.

It's a concern. OG, KAT and probably Mitch.

Kind of like the Clippers rolled the dice with Kawahi and PG

[god shammgod]

OG at PF has bad written all over it. Save that for the playoffs unless we don't want him to make it there in the first place.

Is it though?

I'm wary of it too, but I feel like people view this like it's the mid 80's and OG would be banging with Oakley sized PFs for 40 mpg.

They'll be a lot of switches. Yeah, he'll be on some big guys. I don't think he gets more or less injured either way. He's just injury prone period.

It's a concern. OG, KAT and probably Mitch.

Kind of like the Clippers rolled the dice with Kawahi and PG

that failed every year because of health

[Ma10]

Let's just hope this mofo matured in the last years. Gets his shyt together and is the player everyone thought he would be. I mean he has all the tools. Sometimes it's just motivation!

[Chanel Bomber]

by the way i did the math.....people talk about mitch being unreliable due to health. not wrong but...

in the last 5 years.......

mitchell robinson has averaged 50.8 games a season
31, 59, 72, 31, 61

karl anthony towns has averaged 50 games a season
62, 29, 74, 50, 35,

good luck bozos

They can play 100.8 games together.

[thebuzzardman]

Please go look up the biggest edge the offense of the Jordan Bulls had. This just ain't true. If what you mean is there's no teams recently that won off their offensive rebounding edge, then the Knicks the last two seasons do a pretty good job contesting that reality as do the Thunder towards the end of the KD and Russ years. We've seen teams win with rebounding, we've seen teams win without rebounding. Following what other teams do better and will keep doing better is a sure way to lose though.

The game aint the same man...you can't compare 80's and 90's basketball to now. The volume of 3 pt shooting has changed the game. If you aren't able to match teams small ball or stretch 5's you are playing behind the 8 ball.

The Nuggets averaged 30 3PA a game the year they won it all. Neither Jokic or AG are threats from deep. This is a narrative not reality.

Jokic is a generational passer at C, probably the best all time, and is capable of spreading the floor by shooting 3s and operating as a league best passer from the perimeter. He's absolutely stretching the floor, though not the way people are saying KAT will.

AG does play almost entirely inside, that's true

[thebuzzardman]

2 1sts is the price for Walker Kessler and I'm sure the Bucks is fielding calls on Brook Lopez and the Cavs on Jarrett Allen.

What could we realistically offer for Kessler? The DET and WSH 1sts aren’t valuable enough for that and we’d probably have to throw in Deuce and another 1st.

Brook, that would be intriguing. He’d provide the spacing, but that doesn’t help with our rebounding considering Brook is one of the worst rebounding Cs ever. And Milwaukee would want a player that keeps them in contention. Does Donte go here?

Jarrett Allen would probably be the best option here. The question is would they value Randle enough to trade for him? Would Randle re-sign with them and would they be willing to pay him?

Deuce for Walker and a first or two is a better deal to me. Walker Kessler is like that defensively he's easily better than Mitch to me on that end (Mitch has the rebounding edge).

Brook doesn't average a lot of rebounds but he's a good rebounder. He's like Sheed his rebounds per game don't even begin to do his impact on the glass justice.

And the Cavs think they have a ring coming, and Allen is **** up the development of Mobley I think they'd be happy to offload him and take their chances resigning Randle but maybe I'm wrong. Either way it's a much better idea than rushing into KAT's awful contract.

Would you still make that Deuce/Kessler trade now?

What if the Knicks made that deal and then moved Mitch for a 4?