Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League

[GONYK]

Fields played a whole season at the 2 spot and played well. You can't say he is just a SF, because Fields really isn't strong enough and at 6-7 is undersized depending on the match up.

Fields played the 2 well when Gallo was our 3. What that really meant is that on offense, Gallo stayed on the perimeter (essentially playing the 2) while Fields got to roam inside the arc (essentially playing the 3).

We all saw what happened when we got a more traditional SF (Melo) here. Also, Fields is not quick enough to guard 2's in this league.

[KnicksScholar24]

fields cant start at sg, he doesnt have the lateral quickness to keep up with those people

hes a nice player off the bench though backing up the starters

What happened last season if Fields can't start at SG?

[Iamphilhughes]

Anyone think that Shumpert's game resembles Russel Westbrooks based on the latest video? Granted those highlights are from a bull summer league game but still.. The guy definitely got the athleticism.

[Falstaffxx]

Fields played a whole season at the 2 spot and played well. You can't say he is just a SF, because Fields really isn't strong enough and at 6-7 is undersized depending on the match up.

Fields played the 2 well when Gallo was our 3. What that really meant is that on offense, Gallo stayed on the perimeter (essentially playing the 2) while Fields got to roam inside the arc (essentially playing the 3).

We all saw what happened when we got a more traditional SF (Melo) here. Also, Fields is not quick enough to guard 2's in this league.

I agree that Shumpert seems to fit the mold of a shooting guard better than Fields, and since I feel optimistic about Shumpert, I think he'll end up being our shooting guard.

But - I do think it's too strong to say with certainty that Fields can't cover 2's, and that he can't function as a starter with Carmelo on the roster. We don't know how much of his late season struggles had more to do with hitting a rookie wall with fatigue etc vs. a real problem with being able to fill a particular role. All season we were saying "if he hits a rookie wall at some point it's no big deal," but then once he started struggling we got really down on him as a prospect.

We also don't really know that Shumpert can't play point guard.

[NYman15]

Great points. I do think there's a good chance Iman eventually takes the starting 2 job, but I think Fields rough end of the season really has negated a lot of the great things he did earlier in the season in many peoples eyes, which to me is not fair. I think Landry will have a very solid 2nd year, although I think he'll be playing both the 2 and 3 this year. And I just think Iman takes the starting 2 job because I think he has the better tools necessary to fit the SG position.

[ManiaX]

Fields played a whole season at the 2 spot and played well. You can't say he is just a SF, because Fields really isn't strong enough and at 6-7 is undersized depending on the match up.

Fields played the 2 well when Gallo was our 3. What that really meant is that on offense, Gallo stayed on the perimeter (essentially playing the 2) while Fields got to roam inside the arc (essentially playing the 3).

We all saw what happened when we got a more traditional SF (Melo) here. Also, Fields is not quick enough to guard 2's in this league.

Field's is quick enough to guards most of the SG's in the league. Does he still need to improve his lateral quickness? Yes. Did he struggle to guard the elite SG's in the league? Yes, but who is to say Shumpert will do much better.

Also what makes you think Shumpert can co-exist on the court with Melo?

While Shumpert does have the physical tools to be a better defender than Fields, his basketball IQ and spot up jump shooting is most likely worse than Field's.

Shumpert being a freak athlete won't help him spread the floor for Melo.

Shumpert trying to run offense as a PG/handling the ball won't help Melo either.

Honestly, what Melo needs is a SG version of Gallo.

[Capn'O]

To build on my previous post:

A REAL shooting guard may actually have as much or more value than a REAL point guard just because of how rare both are in today's league. Thus, Iman should be developed based on what his best skills are and not because one position is valued more than the next. I haven't seen him be a particularly innovative offense runner but I have seen him be an effective spot up shooter and a guy that can break down defenses and kick. I imagine he could run around and tire out an opponent a la Rip Hamilton or Reggie as well based on his tireless motor. I'm thinking SG for him based on admittedly small amounts of knowledge. I'm tired of the league turning Westbrook types into PGs. Particularly watching how old as dust Kidd manhandled Westbrook in the WCFs you see the value of a guy that actually runs an offense well doing so. The combo guard will always be overmatched there.

Where have you seen him be an effective spot up shooter and a guy that can break down defensives and kick? And where have you seen him not be a particularly innovative "offense runner?" Is this based on the (most likely) rare times you've seen him play at Georgia Tech, or the highlight reel snippets at the Impact League?

I'm not a big college hoops guy but when we drafted him there are plenty of youtube reels from GT that I watched, read all the predraft profiles, and we had a GT fan commenting extensively in the post draft threads. Obviously the reels show his exciting 3's off the dribble but the Tech poster said that's exactly what he did too much at Tech (or possibly, that he was the only guy at Tech that could do it at all) but when he was open he was pretty effective. The reels also show that he's pretty effective at making space but you can really see his propensity for trying to do too much a la Toney Douglas. We don't see the ones he misses, obviously, and there were tons from all spectators' accountn. His #'s (low %'s and assists for a PG, taking WAY too many 3s, good FT shooter) at Tech also support these claims. The culmination of what I have taken in does not characterize a guy I want running point for my team.

Edit: my spot up shooting assumption is based on all the reels - whenever he creates enough space to set himself the form on his shot is great. If he can move well without the ball (big if) he should have plenty of opportunities to set and shot next to Melo and Stat if he is developed that way. Those skills, imo, are easier to develop than turning a ball dominating guard into a distributor. Think Washington Rip Hamilton vs. Detroit for example. All of a sudden he was running all these curl plays, getting open, and his %s shot up.

I fully admit my knowledge is limited. We're all reading tea leaves at this point.

[GONYK]

Field's is quick enough to guards most of the SG's in the league. Does he still need to improve his lateral quickness? Yes. Did he struggle to guard the elite SG's in the league? Yes, but who is to say Shumpert will do much better.

Defensively, I don't think there is any doubt that Shump will be better than Landry. He is just a much better athlete. He just has a much better physical profile than Landry. Whether he will be good in his own right remains to be seen, but he will be better than Landry.

Also what makes you think Shumpert can co-exist on the court with Melo?

While Shumpert does have the physical tools to be a better defender than Fields, his basketball IQ and spot up jump shooting is most likely worse than Field's.

Shumpert being a freak athlete won't help him spread the floor for Melo.

Shumpert trying to run offense as a PG/handling the ball won't help Melo either.

Honestly, what Melo needs is a SG version of Gallo.

I don't disagree with anything you said as far as Shump fitting with Melo. I do think though that Shump has more skills of a 2G than Fields. He is a much better ballhandler, can guard SG's better, and probably penetrate better. It does all depend on his jumper though.

I'm not knocking Fields as a player. I'm not one of those people who turned on him post-trade. I'm just speaking objectively, that he is not a starting 2G in this league IMO. A perfect swingman off the bench? Absolutely.

[Falstaffxx]

Great points. I do think there's a good chance Iman eventually takes the starting 2 job, but I think Fields rough end of the season really has negated a lot of the great things he did earlier in the season in many peoples eyes, which to me is not fair. I think Landry will have a very solid 2nd year, although I think he'll be playing both the 2 and 3 this year. And I just think Iman takes the starting 2 job because I think he has the better tools necessary to fit the SG position.

Also, you really need more than a 3-player rotation at the 1 and 2 sometimes, so even if we're thinking of Billups/Shumpert/Douglas as our main backcourt rotation with Fields backing up Carmelo, I think we'd still see Fields at the 2 at times.

[stuporman]

How is it that so many players who are very quick on the offensive end can seem to lack the same quickness on the defensive end?

The answer is desire to want to defend. Which isn't just to tell people you want to then not do it which we've been accustomed to seeing from players who are paid top dollar to only give top effort on half the floor. It's actually doing it, on both sides of the court, all of the time.

True there are certain defensive instincts and abilities that translate into being an effective defender and often they can't be taught but when it comes down to it the biggest variable is desire to defend.

Fields has that desire but he does seem a bit limited in his agility and ability to defend the players he goes against every game at the SG spot. Shump seems to have that desire and we will see if his ability and agility will match up with the players he will be asked to guard.

[Scalabrine]

Great points. I do think there's a good chance Iman eventually takes the starting 2 job, but I think Fields rough end of the season really has negated a lot of the great things he did earlier in the season in many peoples eyes, which to me is not fair. I think Landry will have a very solid 2nd year, although I think he'll be playing both the 2 and 3 this year. And I just think Iman takes the starting 2 job because I think he has the better tools necessary to fit the SG position.

Also, you really need more than a 3-player rotation at the 1 and 2 sometimes, so even if we're thinking of Billups/Shumpert/Douglas as our main backcourt rotation with Fields backing up Carmelo, I think we'd still see Fields at the 2 at times.

You guys really just want to relegate a guy who was picked in the 2nd round, that came in, worked his ass off, was the second best rebounding guard behind D.Wade, and started every single game, and just relegate him to the 10-15 minutes bench role behind Carmelo?

This guy is a worker, he may have hit a wall, he may have been confused by his new role when the trade happened, but he will not stop working to improve until his career is over in my opinion. Thats what I love about that guy...

Landry Fields is our starter for now and he should be getting in between 20-30 minutes every night.

Billups - 32
Fields - 26

That leaves 38 extra minutes. Probably more because Fields will play some SF at times. Shumpert and Douglas get the rest. I personally love that if Shumpert is even half of what you guys say he is. Hopefully Shump can outplay Fields and win the job, but I dont think it will be because Fields is struggling.

[birdforthree]

the guy reminds me of jr smith without the attitude...plus maybe some defense as well...

[Falstaffxx]

Great points. I do think there's a good chance Iman eventually takes the starting 2 job, but I think Fields rough end of the season really has negated a lot of the great things he did earlier in the season in many peoples eyes, which to me is not fair. I think Landry will have a very solid 2nd year, although I think he'll be playing both the 2 and 3 this year. And I just think Iman takes the starting 2 job because I think he has the better tools necessary to fit the SG position.

Also, you really need more than a 3-player rotation at the 1 and 2 sometimes, so even if we're thinking of Billups/Shumpert/Douglas as our main backcourt rotation with Fields backing up Carmelo, I think we'd still see Fields at the 2 at times.

You guys really just want to relegate a guy who was picked in the 2nd round, that came in, worked his ass off, was the second best rebounding guard behind D.Wade, and started every single game, and just relegate him to the 10-15 minutes bench role behind Carmelo?

This guy is a worker, he may have hit a wall, he may have been confused by his new role when the trade happened, but he will not stop working to improve until his career is over in my opinion. Thats what I love about that guy...

Landry Fields is our starter for now and he should be getting in between 20-30 minutes every night.

Billups - 32
Fields - 26

That leaves 38 extra minutes. Probably more because Fields will play some SF at times. Shumpert and Douglas get the rest. I personally love that if Shumpert is even half of what you guys say he is. Hopefully Shump can outplay Fields and win the job, but I dont think it will be because Fields is struggling.

The bolded is pretty much the exact opposite of the point I was making.

[KnicksScholar24]

I'm not a big college hoops guy but when we drafted him there are plenty of youtube reels from GT that I watched, read all the predraft profiles, and we had a GT fan commenting extensively in the post draft threads. Obviously the reels show his exciting 3's off the dribble but the Tech poster said that's exactly what he did too much at Tech (or possibly, that he was the only guy at Tech that could do it at all) but when he was open he was pretty effective. The reels also show that he's pretty effective at making space but you can really see his propensity for trying to do too much a la Toney Douglas. We don't see the ones he misses, obviously, and there were tons from all spectators' accountn. His #'s (low %'s and assists for a PG, taking WAY too many 3s, good FT shooter) at Tech also support these claims. The culmination of what I have taken in does not characterize a guy I want running point for my team.

Edit: my spot up shooting assumption is based on all the reels - whenever he creates enough space to set himself the form on his shot is great. If he can move well without the ball (big if) he should have plenty of opportunities to set and shot next to Melo and Stat if he is developed that way. Those skills, imo, are easier to develop than turning a ball dominating guard into a distributor. Think Washington Rip Hamilton vs. Detroit for example. All of a sudden he was running all these curl plays, getting open, and his %s shot up.

I fully admit my knowledge is limited. We're all reading tea leaves at this point.

To be fair, Shumpert's role at GT his senior year is different from what it will be in NY. He had to play more off the ball as a scorer his senior year. I've also heard their coach's offensive system was bad. I think Shumpert play point more as a freshman, and he had more talent around him, but was new to the NCAA and the point position.

I personally prefer pass-first PGs, which Shumpert may not be naturally, but I don't see NY's roster filled with pass-first type PG options. The Knicks don't have Chris Paul, or Deron Williams, or Steve Nash, or Rajon Rondo, if they did, then Shumpert at SG/backup PG makes sense. Right now, with the current roster, Shumpert as the PG prospect and Fields as the SG prospect makes the most sense.

IMHO, I doubt Shumpert will start over Fields, unless Fields struggles in training camp or at the beginning of the season (assuming the CBA issue gets settled), Landry will get full opportunity to start. Unlike with Chandler, Fields likely doesn't have the ability to play at PF, as a stretch 4, for the Knicks, therefore he's not as versatile as Chandler, and therefore he isn't the same sort of asset as Wilson was off-the-bench.

The question is, if Shumpert comes in and impresses, what happens to Toney Douglas' minutes and what happens with Andy Rautins development? I'd like to see Rautins come in as a reserves sharp-shooting SG. I don't think he has the athleticism or ball-handling to make the transition to PG at the NBA level, unlike Shumpert.

I say try to play Shumpert at point, and if he prove he's not capable, then see about moving him off-the-ball, otherwise continue developing him as a 1.

[Falstaffxx]

I'm not a big college hoops guy but when we drafted him there are plenty of youtube reels from GT that I watched, read all the predraft profiles, and we had a GT fan commenting extensively in the post draft threads. Obviously the reels show his exciting 3's off the dribble but the Tech poster said that's exactly what he did too much at Tech (or possibly, that he was the only guy at Tech that could do it at all) but when he was open he was pretty effective. The reels also show that he's pretty effective at making space but you can really see his propensity for trying to do too much a la Toney Douglas. We don't see the ones he misses, obviously, and there were tons from all spectators' accountn. His #'s (low %'s and assists for a PG, taking WAY too many 3s, good FT shooter) at Tech also support these claims. The culmination of what I have taken in does not characterize a guy I want running point for my team.

Edit: my spot up shooting assumption is based on all the reels - whenever he creates enough space to set himself the form on his shot is great. If he can move well without the ball (big if) he should have plenty of opportunities to set and shot next to Melo and Stat if he is developed that way. Those skills, imo, are easier to develop than turning a ball dominating guard into a distributor. Think Washington Rip Hamilton vs. Detroit for example. All of a sudden he was running all these curl plays, getting open, and his %s shot up.

I fully admit my knowledge is limited. We're all reading tea leaves at this point.

To be fair, Shumpert's role at GT his senior year is different from what it will be in NY. He had to play more off the ball as a scorer his senior year. I've also heard their coach's offensive system was bad. I think Shumpert play point more as a freshman, and he had more talent around him, but was new to the NCAA and the point position.

I personally prefer pass-first PGs, which Shumpert may not be naturally, but I don't see NY's roster filled with pass-first type PG options. The Knicks don't have Chris Paul, or Deron Williams, or Steve Nash, or Rajon Rondo, if they did, then Shumpert at SG/backup PG makes sense. Right now, with the current roster, Shumpert as the PG prospect and Fields as the SG prospect makes the most sense.

IMHO, I doubt Shumpert will start over Fields, unless Fields struggles in training camp or at the beginning of the season (assuming the CBA issue gets settled), Landry will get full opportunity to start. Unlike with Chandler, Fields likely doesn't have the ability to play at PF, as a stretch 4, for the Knicks, therefore he's not as versatile as Chandler, and therefore he isn't the same sort of asset as Wilson was off-the-bench.

The question is, if Shumpert comes in and impresses, what happens to Toney Douglas' minutes and what happens with Andy Rautins development? I'd like to see Rautins come in as a reserves sharp-shooting SG. I don't think he has the athleticism or ball-handling to make the transition to PG at the NBA level, unlike Shumpert.

I say try to play Shumpert at point, and if he prove he's not capable, then see about moving him off-the-ball, otherwise continue developing him as a 1.

I don't think "prospect" is a role on a team. Shumpert/Fields won't have roles of, respectively, "pg prospect" and "shooting guard prospect." They'll be played wherever they're most needed right now.

[NYman15]

Great points. I do think there's a good chance Iman eventually takes the starting 2 job, but I think Fields rough end of the season really has negated a lot of the great things he did earlier in the season in many peoples eyes, which to me is not fair. I think Landry will have a very solid 2nd year, although I think he'll be playing both the 2 and 3 this year. And I just think Iman takes the starting 2 job because I think he has the better tools necessary to fit the SG position.

Also, you really need more than a 3-player rotation at the 1 and 2 sometimes, so even if we're thinking of Billups/Shumpert/Douglas as our main backcourt rotation with Fields backing up Carmelo, I think we'd still see Fields at the 2 at times.

You guys really just want to relegate a guy who was picked in the 2nd round, that came in, worked his ass off, was the second best rebounding guard behind D.Wade, and started every single game, and just relegate him to the 10-15 minutes bench role behind Carmelo?

This guy is a worker, he may have hit a wall, he may have been confused by his new role when the trade happened, but he will not stop working to improve until his career is over in my opinion. Thats what I love about that guy...

Landry Fields is our starter for now and he should be getting in between 20-30 minutes every night.

Billups - 32
Fields - 26

That leaves 38 extra minutes. Probably more because Fields will play some SF at times. Shumpert and Douglas get the rest. I personally love that if Shumpert is even half of what you guys say he is. Hopefully Shump can outplay Fields and win the job, but I dont think it will be because Fields is struggling.

I'm as big of fan of Fields as anyone, I knew once I saw him in the summer league, he'd be a player. As of right now, he is clearly the starting SG. I just think with this team right now, it makes more sense to have him playing some 3 as well as the 2. He should be the starting 2 and backing up Melo at the 3. As you also have TD who also plays some 2. But Fields is my starting 2 guard, but I just think Iman is gonna overtake him, eventually, as the starting 2 guard with Landry becoming a 6th man that can play the 2 or 3, somewhat like Wilson Chandler although he can't play the 4, but he can bring some scoring rebounding and passing off the bench. But I'm a huge Landry supporter and have not given up on him, like some have, and I still have not forgotten what he did before the Melo trade.

[Capn'O]

I'm not a big college hoops guy but when we drafted him there are plenty of youtube reels from GT that I watched, read all the predraft profiles, and we had a GT fan commenting extensively in the post draft threads. Obviously the reels show his exciting 3's off the dribble but the Tech poster said that's exactly what he did too much at Tech (or possibly, that he was the only guy at Tech that could do it at all) but when he was open he was pretty effective. The reels also show that he's pretty effective at making space but you can really see his propensity for trying to do too much a la Toney Douglas. We don't see the ones he misses, obviously, and there were tons from all spectators' accountn. His #'s (low %'s and assists for a PG, taking WAY too many 3s, good FT shooter) at Tech also support these claims. The culmination of what I have taken in does not characterize a guy I want running point for my team.

Edit: my spot up shooting assumption is based on all the reels - whenever he creates enough space to set himself the form on his shot is great. If he can move well without the ball (big if) he should have plenty of opportunities to set and shot next to Melo and Stat if he is developed that way. Those skills, imo, are easier to develop than turning a ball dominating guard into a distributor. Think Washington Rip Hamilton vs. Detroit for example. All of a sudden he was running all these curl plays, getting open, and his %s shot up.

I fully admit my knowledge is limited. We're all reading tea leaves at this point.

To be fair, Shumpert's role at GT his senior year is different from what it will be in NY. He had to play more off the ball as a scorer his senior year. I've also heard their coach's offensive system was bad. I think Shumpert play point more as a freshman, and he had more talent around him, but was new to the NCAA and the point position.

I personally prefer pass-first PGs, which Shumpert may not be naturally, but I don't see NY's roster filled with pass-first type PG options. The Knicks don't have Chris Paul, or Deron Williams, or Steve Nash, or Rajon Rondo, if they did, then Shumpert at SG/backup PG makes sense. Right now, with the current roster, Shumpert as the PG prospect and Fields as the SG prospect makes the most sense.

IMHO, I doubt Shumpert will start over Fields, unless Fields struggles in training camp or at the beginning of the season (assuming the CBA issue gets settled), Landry will get full opportunity to start. Unlike with Chandler, Fields likely doesn't have the ability to play at PF, as a stretch 4, for the Knicks, therefore he's not as versatile as Chandler, and therefore he isn't the same sort of asset as Wilson was off-the-bench.

The question is, if Shumpert comes in and impresses, what happens to Toney Douglas' minutes and what happens with Andy Rautins development? I'd like to see Rautins come in as a reserves sharp-shooting SG. I don't think he has the athleticism or ball-handling to make the transition to PG at the NBA level, unlike Shumpert.

I say try to play Shumpert at point, and if he prove he's not capable, then see about moving him off-the-ball, otherwise continue developing him as a 1.

Good points - and I agree that his role in college was a major part of his seemingly poor shot selection. But who knows. Nice, hard working kids can be chuckers too.

I'm assuming Paul -> NYC in my thinking but that's not necessarily the case. Your post reminded me that our backup PG is still TD and just that alone may validate having Iman at the point initially so Toney can play off the ball with the second unit. Each unit needs some continuity as well and those two could provide a good scoring punch with fairly nebulous (position wise) roles.

[ibraheim718]

How is it that so many players who are very quick on the offensive end can seem to lack the same quickness on the defensive end?

The answer is desire to want to defend. Which isn't just to tell people you want to then not do it which we've been accustomed to seeing from players who are paid top dollar to only give top effort on half the floor. It's actually doing it, on both sides of the court, all of the time.

True there are certain defensive instincts and abilities that translate into being an effective defender and often they can't be taught but when it comes down to it the biggest variable is desire to defend.

Fields has that desire but he does seem a bit limited in his agility and ability to defend the players he goes against every game at the SG spot. Shump seems to have that desire and we will see if his ability and agility will match up with the players he will be asked to guard.

The key to defending in a man to man defense is reactionary movements and anticipation... To me those are the most important traits of a great defender. I think Fields matching up against Small forwards would make him a much more effective player.

I wish people would understand when you look at a player and how he moves dictates to me what position he should play. When you watch Magic play his posture pushing the ball the way he changed speeds it screams to me Point guard regardless of the fact he had the physical make up to play the 4.... when I watch Fields play... it screams Small forward and if you're not going to play him there you'll be doing a disservice to him. There will be times in every game where you can bring him off the bench to give Melo a rest and then you can slide him over to the two for a few minutes. You can find a way to play him 25 minutes a game coming off the bench and opposite other SF's and slower 2's. But starting him opposite starting 2's like Wade or Kobe who are quick and crafty with the ball is just foolish.. they torched him last year and had him jumping out of his shoes the whole game. You need someone quicker and stronger to slow down the better 2 guards in the league and Shumpert is quicker and stronger and is known as being a defender not a scorer like Fields was coming out of stanford.

[ManiaX]

I don't think anyone is questioning that Shumpert has the better tools to be a better defender at the SG position than Fields. I know determining someone's ability to defend is not based on steals but 2.7 steals per game is very impressive, and just shows his will and effort to be disruptive on the defensive side.

Also Fields doesn't "scream" SF, but it does show when you watch him that SG is not his natural position. The guy played PF in college and in the NBA had the challenge of guarding Kobe and other guards. Fields was only a rookie and he knows he has to get quicker laterally and better defensively. He may never reach Shumpert's level defensively but he can still improve.

If Shumpert want's Field's spot he will have to prove to be the better player, not just the better defender.

[stuporman]

One thing I can say about D' is that he plays the best players. Even if it winds up being a detriment to match ups since he seems to favor smaller, faster tempo players. So in a normal season if Shump outplayed Fields in preseason, he'd probably gets the starer spot. We now know D' has no problem starting a rookie. The thing that's easy to forget about the way Fields played last year was how smart and mistake free it was for the most part. He was more like a veteran than a rookie.

Although with the lockout and who knows what type of camp/preseason situation will result would he still start a rookie if he was winning the job by his play? It will definitely be interesting to see how both Shump and Fields play once it finally gets going again. I could see D' preferring to use Shump's energy off the bench at first. I guess with him though it just comes down to which one makes their open shots.