KNICKS - Houston PG

[Gravy]

You can play that what if game if they had drafted in the top 5, except you could be talking about Luka, Tatum, Ja, Zion instead of Sexton, Markkanen or SGA. That's my point. You're not gonna hit on every draft pick. I know that. Having a top 5 pick doesn't guarantee that you're gonna draft a franchise player. But it increases your odds.

Interesting how the guy who was in the room for the Magic when they made all those bad picks and FO decisions now works for the Knicks.

The teams that got Ja and Zion didnt even tank, they won 33 games far more than we did lol. The Luka and Tatum drafts were before the odds changed. You dont get rewarded for tanking anymore. Last year the team that won more games than us got Lamelo.

If yall are still waiting for Thibs or any coach in the playoff race to say to his players; ok forget the playoffs lets lose out. Its not happening guys.

I didn't say we should tank. Nor do I expect Thibs to tank.

I was just expressing my skepticism about the future of this team.

We really need one of (or both) Quickley or RJ to become a star on-ball player or we really the run the risk of turning into a treadmill team that's stuck around the 6th-7th seed with limited opportunities of improvement through the draft. I thought we had a shot this past offseason with Haliburton but the Knicks FO passed. If this team becomes a low seed playoff team, these opportunities will simply decrease.

I'm not as optimistic about the mid-term future of this team as some other posters is all.

Thats fair. You think Haliburton has more star potential than RJ or Quickley? I mean RJ was picked higher lol.

[DaGawd]

I mean can we at least just enjoy being mediocre for awhile? No team jumps from the dumps to championship contenders overnight.. unless they make a huge splash in FA/trades like the Miami Heat in 2010 or the 08 Celtics

[Reign23]

You can play that what if game if they had drafted in the top 5, except you could be talking about Luka, Tatum, Ja, Zion instead of Sexton, Markkanen or SGA. That's my point. You're not gonna hit on every draft pick. I know that. Having a top 5 pick doesn't guarantee that you're gonna draft a franchise player. But it increases your odds.

Interesting how the guy who was in the room for the Magic when they made all those bad picks and FO decisions now works for the Knicks.

The teams that got Ja and Zion didnt even tank, they won 33 games far more than we did lol. The Luka and Tatum drafts were before the odds changed. You dont get rewarded for tanking anymore. Last year the team that won more games than us got Lamelo.

If yall are still waiting for Thibs or any coach in the playoff race to say to his players; ok forget the playoffs lets lose out. Its not happening guys.

I didn't say we should tank. Nor do I expect Thibs to tank.

I was just expressing my skepticism about the future of this team.

We really need one of (or both) Quickley or RJ to become a star on-ball player or we really the run the risk of turning into a treadmill team that's stuck around the 6th-7th seed with limited opportunities of improvement through the draft. I thought we had a shot this past offseason with Haliburton but the Knicks FO passed. If this team becomes a low seed playoff team, these opportunities will simply decrease.

I'm not as optimistic about the mid-term future of this team as some other posters is all.

yeah that is my concern too...
it is nice to see progress but we need real stars going forward. RJ, Mitch,Randle and IQ seem to be all good players, but don't know if one of them is a future superstar.
I don't know really. If other teams continue to shoot like 20% on open threes and miss 2 or 3 starters, I am rooting for wins 4 sure

[Chanel Bomber]

The teams that got Ja and Zion didnt even tank, they won 33 games far more than we did lol. The Luka and Tatum drafts were before the odds changed. You dont get rewarded for tanking anymore. Last year the team that won more games than us got Lamelo.

If yall are still waiting for Thibs or any coach in the playoff race to say to his players; ok forget the playoffs lets lose out. Its not happening guys.

I didn't say we should tank. Nor do I expect Thibs to tank.

I was just expressing my skepticism about the future of this team.

We really need one of (or both) Quickley or RJ to become a star on-ball player or we really the run the risk of turning into a treadmill team that's stuck around the 6th-7th seed with limited opportunities of improvement through the draft. I thought we had a shot this past offseason with Haliburton but the Knicks FO passed. If this team becomes a low seed playoff team, these opportunities will simply decrease.

I'm not as optimistic about the mid-term future of this team as some other posters is all.

Thats fair. You think Haliburton has more star potential than RJ or Quickley? I mean RJ was picked higher lol.

I do lol.

I love both Quickley and RJ though.

My point about draft positioning is all about odds. Generally, you can still find one All-Star talent in the 10-14 range every year. I won't dispute that fact. After that however, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack (although Quickley might be the one like Parker or Lowry before him).

Hopefully this team makes the playoffs, the young guys contribute and compete in the series, and they reach another level thanks to that experience and subsequently raise the ceiling of the team. That'd be a good outcome, and I'll eat crow if that happens.

[Jalen Bluntson]

As we have seen...it takes a lot of luck to become a contender through the draft. We have had none to bad luck most times. We never tanked properly to get a shot at a star outside of the KP/RJ drafts and we fell back in both. With new odds... whatever. The team isn't going youth movement/tank for draft route. That's obvious. If kids can force their way into the rotation... good for them.

This is where I have issues. How does the team contend on this path? Which many consider a treadmill. We have to nail picks and hope FAs want to come here... while maintaining cap flexibility. Build as many assets as we can and use them to make moves. Can this FO pull it off? Can we get any luck in the draft? IDK.

In the meantime... I'm enjoying rooting for wins because it has been too long rooting for a tank that never arrives. Like DaGawd said... can we enjoy being mediocre for a while on the way up? I'm trying. Still a lot of season left and no mitch for most of it. B-Ball gods need to smile on us eventually!

[Fury]

We are a Beal or LaVine away from being a nice 2nd round team

Knicks fans need to get away from this mentality

You have to make incremental improvements to become a title team because no superstar is coming here and tanking for 10 years isn’t gonna work. We have to build a team, man.

[Fury]

We are a Beal or LaVine away from being a nice 2nd round team

Knicks fans need to get away from this mentality

Yeah, it is a giant waste of time. That's when you get the very definition of a treadmill team that people complain about now.

The way we are now is almost perfectly positioned for continued growth and development as a franchise. We would just throw that away if we settle now.

We wouldn’t be settling. We’d be creating a team. Then NY would become an attractive destination. You have to take these steps. Trading for a 25 shooting guard isn’t stunting development or growth.

[dakomish23]

Just happy with the kids showing promise this year and Randle showing he should be a part of the future.

Whatever else happens, it’s all background noise to that.

Playoffs. Late lottery. Whatever.

We got keepers and we can’t lose sight of that. Enjoy it. It’s been a while since we could feel this way

[vallen]

I'm just hoping they don't go off course of this rebuild, like every other GM we've had has done, and trade those picks for players that won't make us as good a team as we need to be. Stay with the rebuild through the draft.

You can only rebuild through the draft so long. Rookie deals expire and you have to either pull the trigger and waste cap flexibility on middle of the road guys that you just keep recycling every few years. Thats called treadmilling just like DET, ORL, MIN, WAS, NO who have stayed in that "rebuild" mode for decades. Despite some, maybe all, of those teams drafting all-stars at certain points.

You dont jump from a lottto team to a championship team merely by drafting unless your getting a Lebron or Kobe. You gradually get better like we are doing and attract stars that may want to join a team on the rise making us into a contender. I swear this board would rather lose with Rookies than win period.

Or you can get some luck and hit big on your picks and you can build through the draft and be successful like GSW, Phoenix, Utah, Denver, Boston, Philly and others have done or are doing. You add the vets when you already have a good young core that you've built through the draft like Phoenix did by adding CP3 and some of the others have done. GSW became a championship team by drafting Steph, Klay and Dray.

If the Knicks would of hit with SGA over Knox or D.Mitchell over Frank or if we got a higher pick in some past drafts then we'd be a good team built through the draft right now.

I never said to build through the draft only, i want to build through the draft and keep getting better and then when that right free agent comes available to us and the Knicks are actually a destination that big names are once again looking at you get that player or those players to sign with us and the same with if we can trade for one. We're slowly getting to where we could become an attractive destination again, but we aren't there yet.

You are reaching hard with a lot of "If's". "If's" are irrelevant when they are hypothetical. Yes GS did it for a season before Durant. Those other teams haven't won anything. And as I said rookie deals dont last forever so how do you keep those rooks while maintaining flexibility for FA's??. There is a window between drafting and signing FA's. We have a nice young core already thats going to continue to develop. You make moves that will help that process and further our progress. Counting on "Luck" to build a contender is not smart basketball management.

[Richard4444]

So, lets sort out a few things, expanding on the post above.

It's nice the Knicks are winning some games.
They are playing CLEARLY better basketball than last year, even the "Miller" version.
The defense is much improved.
The offense isn't great, but you can see actual coaching with more wrinkles put in, more actions off the basic plays.

But the team really isn't that good. The record speaks for itself. We're all excited how "Knicks are winning" but a two game winning streak against undermanned teams and they are still two games under .500. They are a half game from the 6th spot, but also could easily slip to 8th or 9th once the Heat and Raptors make a move. Then again, the Hornets might start losing.

So, looking at a borderline playoff team/ good "bad" team or mediocre team.

Like a tweet posted earlier though, the Knicks are in a solid position as a franchise.

Even after with parting with an asset that was barely an asset anymore in DSJr, and a mid 2nd rounder for an obvious upgrade in DRose, The Knicks currently have:

All their own 1st round picks within the next 5 years (They have them further out as well, but 5 years is far enough into the future)
Mav's pick in 2021 and 2023
If not all their own 2nd rounders, then at least one 2nd round pick every year, with a high 2nd round pick in 2021 and multiple 2nd rounders in 2023 and 2024

A youthful roster with some talent and questions but young and cost controlled
RJ, IQ, Mitch, Knox, Obi

Randle is a good player they have control over for another year OR they could move on from if they needed to. He's also young for a vet, basically entering "prime years"

Their role players aren't great, but they aren't bad - most are "ok", they are all paid at an appropriate NBA salary, there is a commitment to none of them longer than a year and most would seem to have some kind of value around the league. I'm not saying finding a taker is easy, but a team might take a flyer on Frank for a decent 2nd rounder and guys like Burks, Noel, Bullocks, Rivers and Payton should at least draw some interest and I'd be surprised if the Knicks didn't trade at least one for a 2nd rounder and maybe the Knicks surprise us and get a late first rounder.

It's nice they are competitive and I'm enjoying it and everyone should, though it's also frustrating the Knicks are playing their way out of a strong chance for a top 7 pick in this upcoming deep draft, but if the FO and scouts have their act together, Knicks should come away with two good players.

And they have enough cap space to take a shot at guys like Trent Jr or THT or some theoretical trade etc.

Future looks pretty good. Can quibble about "they need a franchise guy" or "not set up to be true contenders" but in this season they are on the cusp of the next step up and will need some skill and some luck to maximize that.

The fact that we're competing now and sailing away from a top 5 pick puts a lot of pressure on:

- RJ or Quickley to become a star as an on-ball player.
- The FO to sign or trade for a legitimate superstar like Kawhi.

Without either happening, and without any chance at acquiring a high-end talent at the top of the draft, the Knicks will be stuck in mediocrity, much like the Orlando Magic or the Indiana Pacers. It sure seems this is the direction we're moving.

The best-case scenario for the Knicks is that they end up with the 9th or 10th best record in the East, win the play-in tournament and make the playoffs as the 8th seed, and still retain their lottery pick and move up in the draft and get a top 4 pick. Wishful thinking, but that would (potentially) turn this franchise around completely.

The Magic spent the last 5 years making bad trades and drafting busts at the top of the draft. Drafting high picks didn't save them. They are more proof that getting high picks wont automatically make you a great team.

Some Disappointing Top10 drafted players by unlucky tanking teams in last decade:

Magic (Gordon, Payton, Mario, Injured Isaac, Bamba) Exception: Oladipo
Kings (Fridette, Thomas Robinson, Ben Mclemore, Nik Stauskas, WCS, Bagley) Exception: Fox
Charlotte (Byombo, MKG, Zeller, Vonleh, Kaminsky) Exception: Kemba
Suns (Len, Bender, Marquese, Josh Jackson). Exception: Ayton and Mikal.
Sixers (Noel, Okafor and Fultz). Exception: Simmons and Embiid.
Cavs (Waiters, Benett, Wiggins). Exception: Irving, Tristan and Sexton. Maybe Garland.
Wolves (Derrick Williams, Dunn, Culver).
Utah (Kanter, Burke, Exum)
Detroit (Knight, Stanley Johnson) Exception: Drumond
Bucks (Jabari, Thon Maker)
Pelicans (Rivers, Hayes). Exception: Zion
Knicks (Frank, Knox) Exception: KP. Maybe RJ

A Top 10 pick does not guarantee talent. Only a few teams like Lakers (Randle, DLo, Ingram, Lonzo), Boston (Smart, Brown, Tatum), Portland (CJ, Lillard), Atlanta (Trae, Hunter and maybe Cam), Memphis (JJJ and Morant), Dallas (Doncic despite DSJr) and Wizards (Beal, maybe Rui, despite Vasey) had a positive retrospective in drafting Top 10 past decade.

We don't need to rush to make a team better. We can delay major trades and can wait for injured players to get 100% before use them. But making the team worse just to pick higher picks can be a bad move.

[K_ick_God]

Other than the fact that he’s a 1 or small 2, I don’t see any ceiling on Quickley’s game.

Might be the first draft pick we can say that about AFTER he started playing real regular season NBA games since ... Pat Ewing.

[Knick4Real]

If Thibs keeps it up with IQ now he has a legit shot at ROY

I love that Quick's name is in the conversation. However, the league is going to give it to LaMelo because of his name and his draft position. Also, they want him to be a "star."

[Knick4Real]

Eh, the team looked good and so far Rose is fitting in well in the mix. But it's not good that this has become a team gunning for a low playoff seed where so much runs through vets.

When's the last time you saw a team of rookies win multiple playoff series' or a championship??

[3toheadmelo]

Knicks fans need to get away from this mentality

Yeah, it is a giant waste of time. That's when you get the very definition of a treadmill team that people complain about now.

The way we are now is almost perfectly positioned for continued growth and development as a franchise. We would just throw that away if we settle now.

We wouldn’t be settling. We’d be creating a team. Then NY would become an attractive destination. You have to take these steps. Trading for a 25 shooting guard isn’t stunting development or growth.

Put Lavine with Thibs and watch him transform into a winning player like Randle. Lavine just makes too much sense for us

[jvsimonetti0514]

I mean can we at least just enjoy being mediocre for awhile? No team jumps from the dumps to championship contenders overnight.. unless they make a huge splash in FA/trades like the Miami Heat in 2010 or the 08 Celtics

I don’t really want to be the magic but I wouldn’t mind being the Pacers or raptors before Kawhi. We’ve been bad for so long that being at 5 seeds and randomly ending up in the second round a couple time’s would be pretty enjoyable compared to what we’ve been doing. Clearly the market is still desirable cuz of what Brooklyn pulled off. So if we can be consistently decent that will make it easier to attract top tier stars.

[blueNorange]

Yeah, his stats are good but he fails the eye test for me. I don't see him as a winning player.

Guys who put up big numbers on bad teams should be treated as suspects rather than saviors, at least until proven otherwise. You might trade something of value for a suspect but not the amount their statistics would suggest you give up.

For instance, if a guy puts up terrific offensive numbers but doesn't play much defense, his impact on your team winning games is always going to less than hoped.

Knicks have an opportunity to use their upcoming team status as a lure in free agency, certainly over the next 1-2 years. Why give up both cap space and a truckload of futures to bypass that opportunity?

the answer is obvious

when you don't get to see a player play everyday and only watch highlights, you assume the player is good.

here's a fun fact, lavine has never been on a winning team and he's one of the reasons why.

[DaGawd]

I mean can we at least just enjoy being mediocre for awhile? No team jumps from the dumps to championship contenders overnight.. unless they make a huge splash in FA/trades like the Miami Heat in 2010 or the 08 Celtics

I don’t really want to be the magic but I wouldn’t mind being the Pacers or raptors before Kawhi. We’ve been bad for so long that being at 5 seeds and randomly ending up in the second round a couple time’s would be pretty enjoyable compared to what we’ve been doing. Clearly the market is still desirable cuz of what Brooklyn pulled off. So if we can be consistently decent that will make it easier to attract top tier stars.

Basically this. Stop being so worried about being Orlando. We need to be decent for awhile so FAs wanna come here. This is NY. If we can maintain some type of decency for a prolonged period FAs will take notice and want to come here

[blueNorange]

just wanna say i've been paying attention to this knox/obi chemistry since preseason. it would be a sin for our team not to give this a closer look as the season progresses

knox is going to be out of the league in 2 years, he's simply not good at anything.

[Reign23]

Yeah, it is a giant waste of time. That's when you get the very definition of a treadmill team that people complain about now.

The way we are now is almost perfectly positioned for continued growth and development as a franchise. We would just throw that away if we settle now.

We wouldn’t be settling. We’d be creating a team. Then NY would become an attractive destination. You have to take these steps. Trading for a 25 shooting guard isn’t stunting development or growth.

Put Lavine with Thibs and watch him transform into a winning player like Randle. Lavine just makes too much sense for us

I just don‘t see the trade tho w/o giving up RJ, Mitch or IQ (I think Randle stays as well in this scenario)

[Jalen Bluntson]

I'm not a fan of Lavine and I don't know why he would be traded. I have not closely followed him but... I've never been impressed when I have watched him. He's not a bum or anything I just have never felt like he was a player we should target.

That said...he is young. He can score. Thibs has made a bunch of players better just this season so... he may work magic with Lavine. Cost is everything and we do have assets. I can't say what he really brings or.. what he is worth. I'll leave that up to you RealGMs!