PG: Knicks + Denny's Grand Slam The Jazz

[thebuzzardman]

I like these wins that feel like losses as the discussions are spirited, not boring like after a win

[prophet_of_rage]

He's not overdribbling the ball, doing dumb stuff on offense 5 times a game and not taking revenge shots or drives several times a game that almost always end up in misses or turnovers?

I'd find that more interesting

As soon as Obi starts the fans will be disappointed. He is his own player not the antithesis of Randle. As his own player he is a guy who stands in the corner and can't do much when a body stays in front of him.

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Trust me, I'm not sure Obi is an NBA starter. For all the projecting of stats, it's not a given that production against benches translates to production against starters.

I know your thing is the forum finds whipping boys. Randle certainly was one.
Just be glad I'm coming to the understanding the issue isn't Randle, it's Randle and RJ together

It's not their fault, they don't need to be vilified. They are a poor fit together, one I'm not sure a "star wing" would fix. Maybe. I doubt it.

Obi has a few kinds of advocates.
One group believes his backup stats will translate, he has that ability
Another group likes him because he's not Randle, though for somewhat different reasons
Yet another group likes Obi because they think that he'll "fit" better in the starting lineup, dominating the ball less, moving it more, based on believing his shooting from 3 will continue.
Of course, there is the Venn diagram overlap.

I'd play Randle and Obi together, if anything.
It's the only way the team can remotely have RJ and Randle on the floor at the same time, and even then it wouldn't really be good.

Roster is flawed beyond any simple fixes and a strong reason for that is building around Randle and RJ.

Correct. I just don't see how you can watch Obi play ... beyond highlights ... and see a starter. He has big games in run and gun situations. Half court he needs to be spoonfed everything.

The Knicks need an upgrade in their offensive system.

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[robillionaire]

he doesn't like Randle lol. I think he had a moment in the previous game too

Randle has had these low BBIQ moments pretty much every game. He just loves having the ball in his hands and dribbling aimlessly. He had 2 guys wide open on that play if he just knew how to make quicker decisions instead he just holds, dribble, holds, until the defense regroups. Just an overall dumb basketball player that doesn't fit the definition of team basketball.

I'd say he has 3 to 5 plays a game where he literally gives the ball away, either on really bad shot selection, forcing a pass, or taking a particularly bad shot. I don't even count low % shots, since every player, especially the good ones, take one or two a game.

This is the issue with Randle. The above, and his come and go attitude towards defense (mostly go, as in go away from the guy he needs to defend).

He gives away too many plays per game and his talent, while good, isn't enough to overcome it.

Look, take the two games the Knicks won against the Pistons. The Pistons have decent young talent. They aren't THAT far from the Knicks, talent wise. But they are young and made a LOT of mistakes in those games, again, just giving up plays by turning the ball over, taking really bad shots etc.

NBA games are won or lost by 5-10 points. With the 3 pointer, it could be 15 - and these are still relatively close games. 2-6 baskets.

He's not the only one, but Randle routinely gives away the margin of victory, by himself, every game.

It's a shame, because he has real talent. I'd say it's the above attributes that make him better suited to be a bench player.

RJ does some of this as well. RJ's issue is more lack of ability, than Randle's is.

Randle, RJ, and Brunson are all terrible defensive players and this is supported by numbers and objective facts outside of knicks fans feelings about them. They all need to have good defensive players around them to have a chance of survival on that end, which can't happen because they're stuck together as the mid-3. These are the 3 players we are building around and you can stick our best defenders in IQ/Cam and Mitch in the mix or Marcus Smart and Gobert in there and that won't be enough to salvage it either. You could probably make due with just two of them with 3 solid defenders (RJ and Randle played together with 3 solid defenders on one of the best defensive teams in the NBA) but there's likely no way the three of them are ever going to work together in a starting lineup. And they're all locked in for 4 years.

So they should bench/trade someone. Benching Randle for Obi is the obvious choice but it likely won't help that much because Obi also sucks on defense. But to his credit, he can shoot now and that will help. So we could try this. RJ shoots 28% from 3 and Brunson shoots 29% from 3 so you basically need to have prime Kevin Garnett with Ray Allen's shooting ability to cover up how Brunson and RJ play on both ends as Randle's replacement, and also an elite 3 and D rim protector at center so we need Wembanyama to add to the fictional PF we're getting, and then hope Cam can be prime Klay Thompson. And maybe then you have a winning team around Brunson and RJ

[E-Balla]

Once I wade through my own irrational anger that comes from watching kind of crappy basketball with this team, I'm at least happy they have a young, deep bench.

The issue is they are short 3 starters, but maybe they'll find them eventually.
RJ and Randle kind of more suited to be bench guys, but I guess if they keep one, move the other, it might work.

We have more than enough picks to find those guys, or we can let them develop. As is I see no reason why IQ, RJ, Grimes, Mitch, and Obi can't all be expected to be above average starters in the next 3-4 years. Maybe not superstars but definitely starters for a competitive roster.

[Guano]

Read on Twitter

Pretty impressive work by Leon locking up 2 vets that bring so little to the table.

[GONYK]

Once I wade through my own irrational anger that comes from watching kind of crappy basketball with this team, I'm at least happy they have a young, deep bench.

The issue is they are short 3 starters, but maybe they'll find them eventually.
RJ and Randle kind of more suited to be bench guys, but I guess if they keep one, move the other, it might work.

We have more than enough picks to find those guys, or we can let them develop. As is I see no reason why IQ, RJ, Grimes, Mitch, and Obi can't all be expected to be above average starters in the next 3-4 years. Maybe not superstars but definitely starters for a competitive roster.

I don't think anyone in our FO or coaching staff thinks we have the star we need on this roster right now.

[F N 11]

If we come back tonight without the same desperation something is wrong. Thibs taking people out rotation they better continue even though he shouldn’t be the coach.

[F N 11]

Obi sealed that win for us with his hustle and 3 ball. Oh...and Brunson went off. Cam did some shyt. You can trash RJ all you want but even when he struggles he's better than Julius. Thibs needs a slap in the mouth for the way he disrespects Obi!

I noticed him playing D and going for rebounds. He deserved to finish. Glad to see Hos 3 ball at 43%

[F N 11]

I had Olynk as scrub of the Night but I didn't captain him on Fantasy.

RJ looked injured, lacked lift.

Randle showed maturity by letting Brunson do his thing in the 4th.

He’s been sick. My whole family is sick it’s not Covid but the weather weird. I got my Goose on bc it says 42 but it’s not that cold .

[F N 11]

picked up Cam in fantasy recently...he has been playing great!

He’s attacking the rim better after I blasted him for going up like Knox and Mudiay. Hope it continues. I would love for him to take all Fournier shots that would be amazing. We should make it obligation to get him corner 3’s too.

[Spree2Houston]

Read on Twitter

Pretty impressive work by Leon locking up 2 vets that bring so little to the table.

Damn I thought Randle was better than KP

[F N 11]

Been saying it for two years!! Get Randle and Evan the fuq outta here! Both are trash and hurt the team. Randle walks around with no energy and it hurts the entire team when he is isn't shooting like Steph Curry. He's a losing player with a low IQ.

Randle slowed RJ and Obi development and Fournier slowing IQ, Grimes, and Cam development.

[E-Balla]

I think this is all very optimistic, especially the part about Quick being our best young prospect since while he has made some strides in both finishing inside the arc and playmaking and I'll give you he's our best guard defender in the rotation, that's offset by his regression as a shooter. He's just overall not very good and he's in his 3rd year, not enough progression there

Check out my post about similar teams. It's not optimistic, just probabilities. Players that have great impact metrics while young and that win are more likely to develop into winning players down the road. Stars on bad teams that never learn to win are always a toss up. For every KD there's a Tyreke Evans.

As far as IQ goes you're too worried about numbers. He's a young player, when talking upside you look at the positives not the negatives. Yes the negatives are obvious, he's about average when it comes to overall efficiency because he doesn't finish well and is inconsistent from deep. The upside is incredibly unique and what makes his metrics jump out. If you think he hasn't improved you're just not at all paying attention to the massive leap forward he's taken defensively. Bulking up seems to have done him wonders he's out there looking like Marcus Smart at times with his ability to defend the PNR.

I'd also say there are caveats to those players not being the result of tanking. Like, Giannis wasn't the result of tanking, but the Bucks absolutely tanked for Jabari Parker, he just ended up not working out.

If anything this makes my point for me. The Bucks tried to tank for one year, got a player that got hurt before they could pan out, and it still worked out because they had good young players that people thought would be role players under the star they tanked for but they ended up being stars themselves.

Boston didn't tank, but that's because they were able to outsource their tanking to Brooklyn.

Correct but the only player they got from those Nets picks that was a day one star was Tatum. Remember JB wasn't a star until he took a leap in year 4 and people wanted him traded up until last year where they just made the Finals. The rest of those picks were used to get Kyrie which was a bad idea.

And hell we can bring up the Nets now too thinking about it. They had no picks and still developed a winner with DLo/Allen/Levert/Dinwiddie/Harris and blew it up to chase stars now they're in a way worse spot.

Warriors didn't tank like the modern definition is, but they absolutely sucked for years until they hit on a bunch of guys,

No they didn't. The Warriors "absolutely" sucked for 1 year and they got Ekpe Udoh after falling in the draft. I guess maybe you can count the lockout year that got them Barnes (even though they weren't even a bottom 5 team that year) but they only sucked because Steph got hurt. They signed David Lee that offseason and were clearly looking to compete though. They won 36 games and got Klay with the 11th pick but outside of the Ekpe Udoh year they were never bottom 5 in wins.

Jokic is really the only exception, and he's a massive one at that

No he isn't. You just proved the Bucks tank did nothing to get them closer to a ring and you lied about the quality of the Warriors to pretend they weren't fielding competitive rosters outside of one year that failed for them.

My thing has always been, there will be a good player no matter where you are, but the further back you go, the harder it is to find them.

And this would make sense as a great strategy for team building if it wasn't entirely luck based. As we see with Philly high draft picks can't save poorly built rosters. You gotta hope not only that you win the lottery but also that whoever is worth taking fits with whoever you've already gotten. It's a terrible way to win when compared to compiling positive assets and hoping someone develops/becomes available.

Scouting and player development are arguably more important than draft position, but having a higher draft position makes scouting easier.

It doesn't. If it did we wouldn't have passed up on all the obvious picks I was banging the drum about on this very same board (Mitchell, Hali, Mikal/Shai). We reached for a guy that wasn't even mocked in the lottery and was the 3rd best player on his underwhelming UK team to grab Knox, took a 22 year old that played the same position as our highest played player bypassing the guy that played our position of need and fit the team perfectly that was somehow sliding out of the top 5, and we reached for the french kid completely bypassing the defensive monster at Louisville from NY or the super athletic PG that's currently killing it in Charlotte. At a certain point you're looking for the 1st overall or bust and there's no reason to blow up a team for a 15% chance of actually getting THAT guy (and in many cases like with Cade that guy isn't actually that guy still).

[Orange Mamba]

Read on Twitter

he doesn't like Randle lol. I think he had a moment in the previous game too

Randle has had these low BBIQ moments pretty much every game. He just loves having the ball in his hands and dribbling aimlessly. He had 2 guys wide open on that play if he just knew how to make quicker decisions instead he just holds, dribble, holds, until the defense regroups. Just an overall dumb basketball player that doesn't fit the definition of team basketball.

specifically meant that there was a moment where Cam was frustrated at him in a similar play but I definitely agree with you

[F N 11]

RJ was abysmal shooting the rock tonight.

He needs to lock in the gym with the Shaolin monks and shoot for 7 years straight.

Obi Toppin
9 pts
3-4 3pt
6 reb
4 ast
+23

18 mins????? WTH ?? I demand justice for this malpractice!!

Did yall hear that RJ been sick for the past few games? I didn't know about that until Breen said it a few times. Why did we never hear about this days ago? Or did I miss it, def wasn't said during the broadcast the last few games

I said if Obi didn't play 25+ minutes this game Thibs shouldn't be allowed to leave Utah... **** terrible coach

I'd say we're lucky that Jazz played like **** but that would make us unlucky to win....

I got crushed for saying Knicks hide injuries. I don’t have time to go back and see who it was. RJ has clearly been off. I saw him limped off and some of us said he looked drunk. Noe it comes out he was recovering from something through Breen and wearing mask on sideline. We didn’t know Grimes was hurt UNTIL someone spotted a boot on him in a twitter post. Then Knicks broke news all of a sudden.

How y’all feel now?

[KnicksNext]

We're back on top again!!

[F N 11]

The Randle team meeting worked. They pulled together and got the win for him!

And he walked off like they didn’t get the win because he know he didn’t play well after throwing the meeting. He probably asked everybody to split the check.

[F N 11]

What is this team? This is just the weirdest "I don't even know who we are or what we're doing" team I've ever watched.

Even when we win...

RJ shoots 5/18 and doesn't his 3s.

Randle doesn't do too much. 5/11 only a couple of rebounds.

Quickly and Sims score well off the bench.

Obi goes 3/4 from 3 but still plays less than 20 mins.

We give up 43 3s but only take 32, but thankfully Clarkson was 3/11 and Connelly only 1/6.

We just win the weirdest games. I don't get it.

They clearly played with desperation on D. Except Randle

[TerrenceClarke]

Read on Twitter

So thats what 180 million gets you?

[E-Balla]

Once I wade through my own irrational anger that comes from watching kind of crappy basketball with this team, I'm at least happy they have a young, deep bench.

The issue is they are short 3 starters, but maybe they'll find them eventually.
RJ and Randle kind of more suited to be bench guys, but I guess if they keep one, move the other, it might work.

We have more than enough picks to find those guys, or we can let them develop. As is I see no reason why IQ, RJ, Grimes, Mitch, and Obi can't all be expected to be above average starters in the next 3-4 years. Maybe not superstars but definitely starters for a competitive roster.

I don't think anyone in our FO or coaching staff thinks we have the star we need on this roster right now.

Me neither, but we do have the guys we'll need around that star when we get them if we don't panic and make a bad move. Literally the only thing I can fault them for is all of our lottery picks outside of RJ and RJ was legitimately just bad luck (which is what you're most likely to have when you're tanking as a team building strategy). With every other lottery pick we've had there's been an obvious star player available that ended up being a superstar or better than whoever we selected instead.