PG: Knicks almost lose the huge lead, Brunson goes down with an ankle injury, but they win.

[Gravy]

I looked up minutes and usage and Thibs doesn’t play his top guns anymore than other teams. Idk, I think it’s a little overblown.

I do think Brunson should have sat last night though, I think I said that in the game thread before the game.

Anyway if I were the Knicks right now I’d rest JB until after the break

For the month of January, Brunson is averaging 35 mpg including two missed games when he is supposedly being played 40+ minutes every night. That's how made up narratives becomes facts

Also I think every case is different.

I don't think any argument can be made that fatigue factored into Brunson and Randle's injuries. These were classic basketball injuries (falling on your shoulder and turning your ankle).

Grimes hasn't played much.

The Mitch injury, I can see the case against Thibs. Mitch played through an injury that he should have been resting - which likely led to his serious ankle injury.

As for Shartille O'Shart, he averaged 33.2 mpg between Mitch's injury in December and his own injury in January. That's a significant number for a center, and one he wasn't used to, but it wasn't egregious either. I do hope Thibs reduces his minutes moving forward in light of his achilles scare, however.

The dramatization is over the top.

Mitch is just injury prone at this point. He still has not averaged 30 minutes a game in a season yet but keeps missing significant time.

Every team has somebody that is questionable status or day-to-day for the game. It does get overblown with Thibs and fans truly believe all the starters are playing 40 minutes every game. Even OG Anonuby is at 35mpg since he's been here

[Gravy]

Players increase the chance of being injured by staying longer on the court.
So it's partially Thibs fault.

It's not sorcery.

The more guys are on the floor... The more likely they are to win the injury lottery.

And because a coach knows that injuries are a part of the game, he manages his main players' minutes and when they're on the court in a way that balances winning with preserving their health....You need your players healthy for the playoffs...

Check every game thread and tell me how many times you see folks saying "why is this player still in the game??????". "Why is so-and-so playing 40+ minutes in a blowout???"

Make full use of the roster to minimize unnecessary risk and premature wearing down of your main guys...especially against weak teams.

Game threads are not real life. I dont know what people are watching half the time when I peek in there

[Woodsanity]

I believe we can compete with anyone provided we can actually be healthy come playoff time but that seems less and less likely....

[Kampuchea]

Damn bro

Read on Twitter

?t=bgLe2An5ZQaHXqE9_wfTVg&s=19

Except Hartenstein is playing with achilles tendinitis from being the only 7 footer who runs the same mileage per game as Steph Curry.

you talking about the achilles condition he came to the team with? yes, also thibs fault.

Exactly, but the response will be nonsense “you’ve planted your flag” instead of accepting these truths.

They don’t care about the facts, the truth about minutes (guys not being overused based on actual minutes played) or that the injuries are mostly due to chance.

[cgmw]

Except Hartenstein is playing with achilles tendinitis from being the only 7 footer who runs the same mileage per game as Steph Curry.

you talking about the achilles condition he came to the team with? yes, also thibs fault.

Exactly, but the response will be nonsense “you’ve planted your flag” instead of accepting these truths.

They don’t care about the facts, the truth about minutes (guys not being overused based on actual minutes played) or that the injuries are mostly due to chance.

It’s not that I don’t care. It’s that you make zero sense.

The solar system was created by random chance too, but that doesn’t magically remove the existence of gravity.

Denying that Thibs increases the odds of player injury is like denying the existence of gravity. It’s just a ridiculous position and what you’re really signaling is that you’re an old-school tough guy.

Mind you, I’m a Thibs fan! I just choose to acknowledge the basic existence of reality. He’s gonna cause injuries and playoff fatigue. We know this. We’ve always know this.

[thebuzzardman]

you talking about the achilles condition he came to the team with? yes, also thibs fault.

Exactly, but the response will be nonsense “you’ve planted your flag” instead of accepting these truths.

They don’t care about the facts, the truth about minutes (guys not being overused based on actual minutes played) or that the injuries are mostly due to chance.

It’s not that I don’t care. It’s that you make zero sense.

The solar system was created by random chance too, but that doesn’t magically remove the existence of gravity.

Denying that Thibs increases the odds of player injury is like denying the existence of gravity. It’s just a ridiculous position and what you’re really signaling is that you’re an old-school tough guy.

Mind you, I’m a Thibs fan! I just choose to acknowledge the basic existence of reality. He’s gonna cause injuries and playoff fatigue. We know this. We’ve always know this.

Dolan is making Thibs play Brunson so many minutes

[DaveChecketts]

you talking about the achilles condition he came to the team with? yes, also thibs fault.

Exactly, but the response will be nonsense “you’ve planted your flag” instead of accepting these truths.

They don’t care about the facts, the truth about minutes (guys not being overused based on actual minutes played) or that the injuries are mostly due to chance.

It’s not that I don’t care. It’s that you make zero sense.

The solar system was created by random chance too, but that doesn’t magically remove the existence of gravity.

Denying that Thibs increases the odds of player injury is like denying the existence of gravity. It’s just a ridiculous position and what you’re really signaling is that you’re an old-school tough guy.

Mind you, I’m a Thibs fan! I just choose to acknowledge the basic existence of reality. He’s gonna cause injuries and playoff fatigue. We know this. We’ve always know this.

Just no. The coaches job isnt to manage minutes, it's to manage lineups. It's up to the players to be in shape for what is expected. If it's too many minutes for someone, players need to learn how to pace themselves. Melo was tired every single 4th quarter. That was on him not any coach. Kobe could play all 48 and knew when to pick his spots and when to catch a breath. The only job of the coach on minutes is to tell the player how many to expect so they know exactly how to pace themselves.

[evevale]

Dolan is making Thibs play Brunson so many minutes

[cgmw]

Exactly, but the response will be nonsense “you’ve planted your flag” instead of accepting these truths.

They don’t care about the facts, the truth about minutes (guys not being overused based on actual minutes played) or that the injuries are mostly due to chance.

It’s not that I don’t care. It’s that you make zero sense.

The solar system was created by random chance too, but that doesn’t magically remove the existence of gravity.

Denying that Thibs increases the odds of player injury is like denying the existence of gravity. It’s just a ridiculous position and what you’re really signaling is that you’re an old-school tough guy.

Mind you, I’m a Thibs fan! I just choose to acknowledge the basic existence of reality. He’s gonna cause injuries and playoff fatigue. We know this. We’ve always know this.

Just no. The coaches job isnt to manage minutes, it's to manage lineups. It's up to the players to be in shape for what is expected. If it's too many minutes for someone, players need to learn how to pace themselves. Melo was tired every single 4th quarter. That was on him not any coach. Kobe could play all 48 and knew when to pick his spots and when to catch a breath. The only job of the coach on minutes is to tell the player how many to expect so they know exactly how to pace themselves.

Clearly struck a nerve with a lot of folks.

I agree with you that MSG, Inc. has set up a deliberate and organized Darwinian system to weed out the weak in the name of "winning now" whether that "now" is October or May. That's exactly my point and everything you just said reinforces it. So thank you.

Thibs is their guy because he demands maximum effort and exertion NOW whether that now is October or April. He runs short playoff-style rotations early season, mid season, late season. He runs all offense to funnel contact at the rim. He runs all defense to collapse and protect the rim. He keeps players on the court late in blowouts. He keeps players in the rotation when playing through pain. He doesn't give a single F about your B2B. His style is very well established and yes, to your point, it will reveal which among his players can survive the hardest conditions. No surprise to any of this, which is why he's ranked last among coaches for whom players want to play.

Which is why it's comical to hear fans chalk it up to "bad luck." Is it "bad luck" to buy a lottery ticket and not win? Sure. Is it "bad luck" that 6 of Thibs' top 8 players are hurt? Yep. Sure is. But both outcomes should be expected.

[Iron Mantis]

Delusional players. How dare they.

Thibs' reputation was invented by Knicks forum fans looking for a scapegoat to why seven of their nine rotation players are injured.

[K_ick_God]

You'd really have to dig in on minutes to see what Thibs causes or doesn't cause.

My thinking is that it's a difficult criticism to make. Here's a thought experiment: Thibs also demands defense. Should we criticize that? I sure as hell won't. I believe a coach's job is to run a tight ship and I've known, because Jeff Van Gundy said it a lot publicly, that the school of thought is that an extra couple of minutes per game is not make or break.

I don't know that that's true, but I also don't know that minutes track to Thibs' players getting injured either. Just because they espouse what they espouse doesn't mean it's having any effect.

The other thing is that there are confounding variables. Injuries they had already, or that were total accidents, plus there's the fact that little guys who handle the ball, like JB or Derrick Rose, are always going to wear out faster (at least that's my untested hypothesis). Another confounding variable is that Thibs is not a great game tactician, and that's more important in the playoffs. His game coaching seems to have an impact on the playoffs as much or more than injuries and minutes, so it's hard to assign that one entirely to playing time. I mean you can, but you don't know it's true lol.

Like so much, it's probably not that simple. And in this case, JB came into the game after Thibs tried to rest him all rest of the game but it got close. He then got injured. Is it possible that he was still tired in his legs? Yes and I think he was actually. But that's a guess more or less.

Until his shoulder injury, Randle has had a very good track record of health. Should Thibs get the credit for that? If not, why not?

[Jeff Van Gully]

you talking about the achilles condition he came to the team with? yes, also thibs fault.

Exactly, but the response will be nonsense “you’ve planted your flag” instead of accepting these truths.

They don’t care about the facts, the truth about minutes (guys not being overused based on actual minutes played) or that the injuries are mostly due to chance.

It’s not that I don’t care. It’s that you make zero sense.

The solar system was created by random chance too, but that doesn’t magically remove the existence of gravity.

Denying that Thibs increases the odds of player injury is like denying the existence of gravity. It’s just a ridiculous position and what you’re really signaling is that you’re an old-school tough guy.

Mind you, I’m a Thibs fan! I just choose to acknowledge the basic existence of reality. He’s gonna cause injuries and playoff fatigue. We know this. We’ve always know this.

before mitch got injured both players pretty much split the minutes. the current situation is not by design.

it's really you who's not making sense. is thibs managing minutes or not?

and... planting the flag? you opened the door and i responded.

[Jeff Van Gully]

For the month of January, Brunson is averaging 35 mpg including two missed games when he is supposedly being played 40+ minutes every night. That's how made up narratives becomes facts

Also I think every case is different.

I don't think any argument can be made that fatigue factored into Brunson and Randle's injuries. These were classic basketball injuries (falling on your shoulder and turning your ankle).

Grimes hasn't played much.

The Mitch injury, I can see the case against Thibs. Mitch played through an injury that he should have been resting - which likely led to his serious ankle injury.

As for Shartille O'Shart, he averaged 33.2 mpg between Mitch's injury in December and his own injury in January. That's a significant number for a center, and one he wasn't used to, but it wasn't egregious either. I do hope Thibs reduces his minutes moving forward in light of his achilles scare, however.

The dramatization is over the top.

Mitch is just injury prone at this point. He still has not averaged 30 minutes a game in a season yet but keeps missing significant time.

Every team has somebody that is questionable status or day-to-day for the game. It does get overblown with Thibs and fans truly believe all the starters are playing 40 minutes every game. Even OG Anonuby is at 35mpg since he's been here

it's lazy. i went and checked the numbers just to verify the claims and they couldn't support it less.

risk for being on the floor at inappropriate times? sure. fair discussion. guys averaging 45 mpg... fake news. contact injuries during competitive game time... thibs machinations.

blame thibs when a guy gets hurt stat padding in garbage time. don't blame thibs when the game is still the game.

[sol537]

Might be best to rest Brunson, Grimes, and OG through the all-star break. Let some gleague guys play. Maybe we can steal a win in these next 4 games before the break. Let our guys call come back fresh for the post all star push.

[Besart19]

not running proper sets on offense and playing with playoff intensity on defense is what makes Thibs players prone to injuries and both mental and physical fatigue a

[cgmw]

Exactly, but the response will be nonsense “you’ve planted your flag” instead of accepting these truths.

They don’t care about the facts, the truth about minutes (guys not being overused based on actual minutes played) or that the injuries are mostly due to chance.

It’s not that I don’t care. It’s that you make zero sense.

The solar system was created by random chance too, but that doesn’t magically remove the existence of gravity.

Denying that Thibs increases the odds of player injury is like denying the existence of gravity. It’s just a ridiculous position and what you’re really signaling is that you’re an old-school tough guy.

Mind you, I’m a Thibs fan! I just choose to acknowledge the basic existence of reality. He’s gonna cause injuries and playoff fatigue. We know this. We’ve always know this.

before mitch got injured both players pretty much split the minutes. the current situation is not by design.

it's really you who's not making sense. is thibs managing minutes or not?

and... planting the flag? you opened the door and i responded.

Resorting to “but look at the minutes played” is the lowest form of hoops debate. The quality substance style and context of those minutes is what matters and what has always mattered.

I see the same people on here claiming injuries are totally random are the same people who thought player development happens regardless of coaching.

People are on here trying to defend Thibs but the only logical conclusion of your argument is that his coaching doesn’t matter. That if somehow you switched him with Fizdale, everything would be exactly the same. We’d be a 50 win team with 7 injured rotation players.

To me that’s asinine. You give the man his credit, he’s worked miracles. But you also act like an adult and acknowledge at what cost a coach achieves his success. Hopefully none of these injuries are career threatening, and everybody is healthy for a playoff run, that’s all I really care about.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Forget the injuries for a second. A reason the game was even close was because our team was gassed going against 10 hungry players with fresh legs.

It would have been a perfect game to play Toppin or anyone else....else what's even the point if the 4 or 5 guys left on them bench can't even get in a game against a G-league roster? 7 man rotation + Taj is not a good look

[Chanel Bomber]

For the month of January, Brunson is averaging 35 mpg including two missed games when he is supposedly being played 40+ minutes every night. That's how made up narratives becomes facts

Also I think every case is different.

I don't think any argument can be made that fatigue factored into Brunson and Randle's injuries. These were classic basketball injuries (falling on your shoulder and turning your ankle).

Grimes hasn't played much.

The Mitch injury, I can see the case against Thibs. Mitch played through an injury that he should have been resting - which likely led to his serious ankle injury.

As for Shartille O'Shart, he averaged 33.2 mpg between Mitch's injury in December and his own injury in January. That's a significant number for a center, and one he wasn't used to, but it wasn't egregious either. I do hope Thibs reduces his minutes moving forward in light of his achilles scare, however.

The dramatization is over the top.

Mitch is just injury prone at this point. He still has not averaged 30 minutes a game in a season yet but keeps missing significant time.

Every team has somebody that is questionable status or day-to-day for the game. It does get overblown with Thibs and fans truly believe all the starters are playing 40 minutes every game. Even OG Anonuby is at 35mpg since he's been here

Yes Mitch is injury prone, but my counterpoint would be that as a coach and as an organization you have to mitigate that by taking precautions. Apparently Mitch's ankle was hurting and they still played him significant minutes. It was an ill-advised decision not to give him rest. It's the same thing with Embiid. Those guys can't be treated like a regular player.

Agreed about your general point about the Thibs thing being overblown though. It's a sensationalistic narrative aimed to lay the groundwork for finding a scapegoat. It's convenient to have a simple answer.

[DOT]

Forget the injuries for a second. A reason the game was even close was because our team was gassed going against 10 hungry players with fresh legs.

It would have been a perfect game to play Toppin or anyone else....else what's even the point if the 4 or 5 guys left on them bench can't even get in a game against a G-league roster? 7 man rotation + Taj is not a good look

It'd be more accurate to say it was a 6 man rotation with guest appearances from Taj and Flynn

6 guys played 31+ minutes, Taj and Flynn played 25 combined

To put that into perspective, the top 6 players received 89.5% of all minutes, while the bottom 9 received only 10.5%

The proletariat bench needs to seize the means of production.

[Capn'O]

I don't have an issue with the minutes per se. It's just... why leave guys in for so long in blowouts. First off, the guys could be getting rest and would be out harms way of any freak risk. Second, it builds up the bench to work things out when Plan A is not available. An alternate model would be the Thunder. If you follow any of their blowouts, you'll see their starters are out for almost all of the 4th sometimes if they're up big. A lot of teams do this and they aren't getting "Tracy McGrady'd" right and left. Their benches learn to hold leads.