Thibs needs to go

[cgmw]

Payne leads the team in net rating and is +124 on the season despite how little he plays, it's honestly comical at this point, he's showing clear impact but doesn't play much because......just because.

This is why it’s so baffling. I think Thibs actually LOVES Payne and Deuce. I think he likes Precious a lot too.

But he doesn’t play them. Why?

because he still views the starting 5 as the best lineup therefore plays them as much as humanly possible. it's all shortsighted.

My (sane) assumption is that the team would win more and the individual players would be more productive if they all played slightly fewer minutes.

What seems insane is to play five guys 40 mpg when you have decent reserves capable of spot minutes so that the best 5 can produce more, longer, and when it counts.

It would be one thing if we were killing it, but the team is clearly exhausted and losing, yet he still refuses to play the bench. Makes no sense.

It’s almost like he’s testing them to see which one will drop from injury/exhaustion first out of pure idiotic machismo. Once one of them drops (and at least one of them will) he’ll overplay the new guy in the rotation too. I don’t think he hates the bench players, I think he hates the concept of playing any bench players whatsoever.

[8516knicks]

Is this the same thread from 2020? Just asking.

[HopelessKnick]

As a sort of consolation: If one or more of the starters go down with a wear and tear type injury the heat will be turned on massively on Thibs. I personally believe last season's bad injury luck had something to do with Thibs as well. Maybe only to a certain degree but still.

I don't think he'd survive another "bad injury streak".....so either the starters stay healthy or the heat will be on Thibs.

[WaltFrazier]

2 games now he's started to play a better mix of bench guys in the first half. But then he doesn't trust them in the 2nd half and reverts to the heavy minutes. Payne is the obvious case in point even after good first halves. The next step is to play bench guys more in the 3rd and early 4th as well. But it seems a slow process for Thibs to come around, like pulling teeth.

[TKKnicks1]

2 games now he's started to play a better mix of bench guys in the first half. But then he doesn't trust them in the 2nd half and reverts to the heavy minutes. Payne is the obvious case in point even after good first halves. The next step is to play bench guys more in the 3rd and early 4th as well. But it seems a slow process for Thibs to come around, like pulling teeth.

Ya it really instills confidence in players when you play real well and then are benched. Luckily we have vets who understand but he's killing the psyche of the younger guys for sure.

[8516knicks]

2 games now he's started to play a better mix of bench guys in the first half. But then he doesn't trust them in the 2nd half and reverts to the heavy minutes. Payne is the obvious case in point even after good first halves. The next step is to play bench guys more in the 3rd and early 4th as well. But it seems a slow process for Thibs to come around, like pulling teeth.

Or hair. And that's a problem for him.

[kNicksGmen]

we haven't had nearly the amount of "blowout" wins i expected - which would have helped with overall minutes. also thibs doesn't do any favors when we have had some very comfortable leads and he leaves in the starters to essentially close out the game.

[KOA]

we haven't had nearly the amount of "blowout" wins i expected - which would have helped with overall minutes. also thibs doesn't do any favors when we have had some very comfortable leads and he leaves in the starters to essentially close out the game.

The Knicks are second in the league in wins by 20+ points this season with 11 just behind Boston who has 12.
Your second point is a valid one - we should be taking out our starters when the other team throws in the towel with their 3rd stringers.

[8516knicks]

we haven't had nearly the amount of "blowout" wins i expected - which would have helped with overall minutes. also thibs doesn't do any favors when we have had some very comfortable leads and he leaves in the starters to essentially close out the game.

The Knicks are second in the league in wins by 20+ points this season with 11 just behind Boston who has 12.
Your second point is a valid one - we should be taking out our starters when the other team throws in the towel with their 3rd stringers.

Blowout wins in sports are not as common these days. Consider the KC Chiefs season, yet they are playing for their Conference Championship this Sunday anyway.

[kNicksGmen]

we haven't had nearly the amount of "blowout" wins i expected - which would have helped with overall minutes. also thibs doesn't do any favors when we have had some very comfortable leads and he leaves in the starters to essentially close out the game.

The Knicks are second in the league in wins by 20+ points this season with 11 just behind Boston who has 12.
Your second point is a valid one - we should be taking out our starters when the other team throws in the towel with their 3rd stringers.

that's interesting. i would have to look at each result and my assumption is a lot of them the knicks pulled away in the 4th (took a 12-15 point lead and built it up to 20+ by games end).

because i feel like it's been incredibly rare for the starters to not play in the 4th (i know this is on thibs in many cases) - which was my definition of a blowout.

or at least not play much. like is there a stat for how many games did all starters play under 35 mins? or even less like 32.

[knicks94]

How does one have two all-star team starters and could only coach his team to be the 5th best in the league?

[Jalen Bluntson]

we haven't had nearly the amount of "blowout" wins i expected - which would have helped with overall minutes. also thibs doesn't do any favors when we have had some very comfortable leads and he leaves in the starters to essentially close out the game.

The Knicks are second in the league in wins by 20+ points this season with 11 just behind Boston who has 12.
Your second point is a valid one - we should be taking out our starters when the other team throws in the towel with their 3rd stringers.

that's interesting. i would have to look at each result and my assumption is a lot of them the knicks pulled away in the 4th (took a 12-15 point lead and built it up to 20+ by games end).

because i feel like it's been incredibly rare for the starters to not play in the 4th (i know this is on thibs in many cases) - which was my definition of a blowout.

or at least not play much. like is there a stat for how many games did all starters play under 35 mins? or even less like 32.

Zero.

[kNicksGmen]

The Knicks are second in the league in wins by 20+ points this season with 11 just behind Boston who has 12.
Your second point is a valid one - we should be taking out our starters when the other team throws in the towel with their 3rd stringers.

that's interesting. i would have to look at each result and my assumption is a lot of them the knicks pulled away in the 4th (took a 12-15 point lead and built it up to 20+ by games end).

because i feel like it's been incredibly rare for the starters to not play in the 4th (i know this is on thibs in many cases) - which was my definition of a blowout.

or at least not play much. like is there a stat for how many games did all starters play under 35 mins? or even less like 32.

Zero.

it probably is 0 literally lol. even games where we won comfortably (20+ going into the 4th) he usually still has some starters in. those games sometimes he would give Brunson a break and he wouldn't come back in for the 4th, but Hart, bridges etc would play 8+ mins in those 4th quarters. and Kat usually starts the 4th.

most recent game that was anything close was the blowout against the bucks - 19 point lead going into the 4th.
bridges played 37+
Kat 35+
Hart 35+
OG 30+
Brunson 28+

those aren't bad numbers in a normal game - not a blowout

[Iron Mantis]

How does one have two all-star team starters and could only coach his team to be the 5th best in the league?

This team is living on talent alone. The coaching is mediocre at best.

With elite coaching they'd be in the championship conversation.

[WaltFrazier]

I wonder if with a different coach, Kolek Huk and Dadiet would have more minutes under their belt by now and be more ready to contribute. Or if needed, would one of them be just as prepared by practice time alone, to be thrown in there because of injuries or whatever

[Fat Kat]

Read on Twitter

[sol537]

Thibs will get until the end of the season at the least... he might be next season too but I'm hoping we change gears this off-season if we fall short again.

[HopelessKnick]

Read on Twitter

I think this is simplifying the discussion by a lot. Keep in mind we traded our entire stock of picks up until 2030 in order for a real shot at a title. While I definitely agree that the overall record is very solid, the team currently does not seem in a position to challenge the top 3 teams in the league. IMO the Knicks current positioning is more a result of the great job Rose and the FO have done. This is the most talented knick team in decades---heck maybe since the 1970s, so we should be expecting good results.

Add to that the fact that it is not only Knicks fans but also Wolves and Bulls fans who frequently complained about the minute management by Thibs. So this has more of a universal character of fanbases witnessing Thibs coaching pointing to this issue.

But for me the most pressing point is this: After all this (good) trades we do not have a whole lot of room left to improve via trades in the near future and we won't have any good picks---so the only real way to still improve and upgrade the talent level and depth of this team is through organic, inner development, aka trusting the bench and giving younger players more of a shot. That does not seem to be something Thibs is willing to do in a big way. So the question would be: How are we going to improve as a team?

And then you have the repeating theme of Thibs playing his starters when up 20+ points with under 3-4 minutes left. Or bench players playing great in the first half but getting no burn in the second. Essentially Thibs shows very little trust and confidence in his bench. That's not good. Now you could say: "Well he and his staff watch the team every day in practice so he must have a better grasp of whom to play etc."----but then you have the Hartenstein situation where a pretty darn good Center was essentially getting 15 minutes a game and was disgruntled until injury luck forced Thibs hand.

[sol537]

Read on Twitter

I think this is simplifying the discussion by a lot. Keep in mind we traded our entire stock of picks up until 2030 in order for a real shot at a title. While I definitely agree that the overall record is very solid, the team currently does not seem in a position to challenge the top 3 teams in the league. IMO the Knicks current positioning is more a result of the great job Rose and the FO have done. This is the most talented knick team in decades---heck maybe since the 1970s, so we should be expecting good results.

Add to that the fact that it is not only Knicks fans but also Wolves and Bulls fans who frequently complained about the minute management by Thibs. So this has more of a universal character of fanbases witnessing Thibs coaching pointing to this issue.

But for me the most pressing point is this: After all this (good) trades we do not have a whole lot of room left to improve via trades in the near future and we won't have any good picks---so the only real way to still improve and upgrade the talent level and depth of this team is through organic, inner development, aka trusting the bench and giving younger players more of a shot. That does not seem to be something Thibs is willing to do in a big way. So the question would be: How are we going to improve as a team?

And then you have the repeating theme of Thibs playing his starters when up 20+ points with under 3-4 minutes left. Or bench players playing great in the first half but getting no burn in the second. Essentially Thibs shows very little trust and confidence in his bench. That's not good. Now you could say: "Well he and his staff watch the team every day in practice so he must have a better grasp of whom to play etc."----but then you have the Hartenstein situation where a pretty darn good Center was essentially getting 15 minutes a game and was disgruntled until injury luck forced Thibs hand.

100% facts. Add to this the fact that he plays mediocre offensive and defensive sets way too often and you have a recipe for disappointment in the playoffs (I hope I'm wrong!). Maybe Mitch's return and a bench upgrade at the deadline will push us to the next stratosphere in the playoffs... Maybe.

Otherwise, we'll get a new coach in the off-season (Hurley? Wright? someone else?).

We're in a good position regardless.

[Clyde_Style]

How does one have two all-star team starters and could only coach his team to be the 5th best in the league?

This team is living on talent alone. The coaching is mediocre at best.

With elite coaching they'd be in the championship conversation.

Our record is entirely a reflection of how much talent we have and a soft schedule and nothing more.

To waste this talent on a knuckle dragging neanderthal like Thibs is criminal