Knicks Core vs. Nets Core

[kane2021]

One question...

You guys are criticizing Devin because he's more of a scoring guard than a passing guard.. Who exactly is he suppose to pass it to??

Bobby Simmons??
Yi??
Trenton Hassell??
Josh Boone??

Is it really smart to cut down Harris' shot attempts just to hand them out to those guys??

Up until this year. Now who knows.

[jeff1624]

One question...

You guys are criticizing Devin because he's more of a scoring guard than a passing guard.. Who exactly is he suppose to pass it to??

Bobby Simmons??
Yi??
Trenton Hassell??
Josh Boone??

Is it really smart to cut down Harris' shot attempts just to hand them out to those guys??

Up until this year. Now who knows.

VC averaged more shot attempts than Harris.. so I fail to see your point..

[kane2021]

One question...

You guys are criticizing Devin because he's more of a scoring guard than a passing guard.. Who exactly is he suppose to pass it to??

Bobby Simmons??
Yi??
Trenton Hassell??
Josh Boone??

Is it really smart to cut down Harris' shot attempts just to hand them out to those guys??

Up until this year. Now who knows.

VC averaged more shot attempts than Harris.. so I fail to see your point??

You asked who he is supposed to pass to. Not who else. I give you a answer and you tell me had more FGA's (300) and you fail to see my point?

[jeff1624]

Just because you answered doesn't mean it makes any sense.. Yeah Devin harris is a ball hog because he didn't give VC more shot attempts despite the fact that VC led the team in that category..

[StutterStep]

VC averaged more shot attempts than Harris.. so I fail to see your point..

VC's FGA has gone down by 3 and Harris' has gone up by 3 in the season they spent together. It's hard to figure it (at the moment) for the season in which the trade went down.

Harris averaged AT LEAST 2X as many shots than every player (except VC and Lopez) and nearly as 2X much as Yi. Keep in mind that he's the point guard.

[StutterStep]

Just because you answered doesn't mean it makes any sense.. Yeah Devin harris is a ball hog because he didn't give VC more shot attempts despite the fact that VC led the team in that category..

I see you sig'ed me but never debated my point that Rod Thorn would trade Harris for Chandler without even thinking twice.

I also see no one brought up my PG stats comparison of Harris vs. Duhon....

[kane2021]

Just because you answered doesn't mean it makes any sense.. Yeah Devin harris is a ball hog because he didn't give VC more shot attempts despite the fact that VC led the team in that category..

Those are your words not mine. And I clearly see what you are trying to do now.

Simple question. Simple answer man. If you wanted to argue he passed to vince and had no one else to pass to then thats fine. Game over.

But it kind of defeated the purpose of the debate when you defend Harris by implying he has no one to pass to.

In that case there was no right answer and I fell for the trap. Shame on me. Wont happen again.

[cgf]

I will tell you nets fans another thing also. And this is coming from a fan of a team that KNOWS bad press. If ANYTHING dirty comes back on that Russian during this venture it will be international news. Not local. Not national. International.

Already reports claim this guy is a mobster type. With connections.

If you are looking to move a professional sports team from Jersey to Brooklyn the dirty way, why not get a NY mobster and get a clean cover boy. A cover boy that is a house hold name. You would get in less trouble if you get caught. And it would be easier to keep under the rug.

Like.......................JAY-Z maybe?

Self proclaimed gangster/millionaire/king of NY/clean business man, this cat has so many faces and self given titles. But came up short here.

To be fair any russian with real money is an oligarch and thus a "mobster type" hell, my old man went to college with a few of those "mobster types" it's not really the same thing as when you say mobster over here and think about the godfather.

[cgf]

One question...

You guys are criticizing Devin because he's more of a scoring guard than a passing guard.. Who exactly is he suppose to pass it to??

Bobby Simmons??
Yi??
Trenton Hassell??
Josh Boone??

Is it really smart to cut down Harris' shot attempts just to hand them out to those guys??

The idea is that if he's so dominant that he's drawing constant triple teams that means that at least two of those guys are completely undefended and so should be cutting to the hoop for the easy points. Hell I'd rather have Jeffries and Hughes taking completely uncontested jumpers/drives to the hoop than devin harris playing 1 on 3. And he's also played with this guy named vince carter, who's pretty good.

[kamaze]

Just because you answered doesn't mean it makes any sense.. Yeah Devin harris is a ball hog because he didn't give VC more shot attempts despite the fact that VC led the team in that category..

I see you sig'ed me but never debated my point that Rod Thorn would trade Harris for Chandler without even thinking twice.

I also see no one brought up my PG stats comparison of Harris vs. Duhon....

Cause neither made sense no need for Chandler CDR is looking good. He gets to the ft line more has better scorer's mentality. What did Chandler avg last year?
Duhon plays in a system where the point guard's role is to pass first, a lot of drive and kick easy assists. Didn't they lead the league in 3 pt attempts?

The Nets offense this year is more uptempo than last more speed on the roster.
Courtney Lee and Chris Douglas Roberts at the 2 and 3 are quick and good defenders, expect a lot of half court traps, full court pressure to up the tempo.

[StutterStep]

Chandler in first full season of play -- same shooting across the board with increasing (and currently) better 3pt%; 3 less shots and 14pts.

Everything with Harris goes back to his FTA's -- what we on the Knicks board knows is primarily due to the NBA trying to manufacture "superstars".

[TheBluest]

Chandler in first full season of play -- same shooting across the board with increasing (and currently) better 3pt%; 3 less shots and 14pts.

Everything with Harris goes back to his FTA's -- what we on the Knicks board knows is primarily due to the NBA trying to manufacture "superstars".

Harris is far better than you're giving him credit for but yes I agree he could pass more. Nate is even worse when you're talking about playing a player at point and ball distribution. You want Nate as a starting point on this team and there's no doubt in my mind over the course of a season he'd be worse than Harris. Although Harris is slotted at point just like Nate could be.... let's be honest they play the game as 2's/combo guards. That's what Harris is..... one of the better Combo guards in the league in the mold of Monta Ellis. Harris averaged 7ast so let's stop acting like he doesn't pass. I mean shall we start attacking Tony Parker, Jason Terry, Bibby in his Prime, Chauncey Billups, Kirk Hinrich(who you like but sucks as a distributor) as overrated players because they shoot a lot and pass less?

[jeff1624]

One question...

You guys are criticizing Devin because he's more of a scoring guard than a passing guard.. Who exactly is he suppose to pass it to??

Bobby Simmons??
Yi??
Trenton Hassell??
Josh Boone??

Is it really smart to cut down Harris' shot attempts just to hand them out to those guys??

The idea is that if he's so dominant that he's drawing constant triple teams that means that at least two of those guys are completely undefended and so should be cutting to the hoop for the easy points. Hell I'd rather have Jeffries and Hughes taking completely uncontested jumpers/drives to the hoop than devin harris playing 1 on 3. And he's also played with this guy named vince carter, who's pretty good.

Who said he didn't?? He averaged 7 assists despite the fact that VC mostly scores off of ISO's and the occasional catch and shoot, meaning that he DID pass it to those guys enough times but again you can't blame Harris for not passing it more. Yi shot 38% as PF, Boone isn't a strong finisher and would end up getting fouled and clunking both FTA. The only one who shot a decent percentage was Bobby simmons but that is an example of when a stat can decieve you.. He was arguably our worst rotational player, 95% of his Shot attempts came from Harris and VC when they drove to the basket because he couldn't handle the ball effectively and because he's so slow for a SF that he basically stood at the 3 point line waiting for the pass on every posession..

Guys like Dooling and Hayes had career years despite playing with Harris who you guys labeled as a ball hog. I'd understand if Harris was on the lakers or Celtics and had Gasol, Kobe, Odom, Bynum to pass the ball or Allen, Pierce and Garnett but he played with VC and a rookie Lopez.. Not the same..

[K_ick_God]

One question...

You guys are criticizing Devin because he's more of a scoring guard than a passing guard.. Who exactly is he suppose to pass it to??

Bobby Simmons??
Yi??
Trenton Hassell??
Josh Boone??

Is it really smart to cut down Harris' shot attempts just to hand them out to those guys??

I understand what you're saying but I don't think it really works like that. Your point guard can make or break a) the individual output and b) your team's offensive flow depending on whether he is a natural floor general. You should know that as someone who had Jason Kidd for years. He turned Mikey Moore and K-Mart into very effective offensive players. Not saying Devin Harris has to be Jason Kidd but even a relatively inferior, back-up quality PG like Duhon makes people better when he is on. Even Duhon is significantly more of a ball-moving, teammate-improving PG than Harris.

Being a point guard is much more in your DNA than you are making it out to be. It's not dictated by how many good players you have around you really. A point guard runs it, makes the right pass, gets the ball to people in rhythm, instinctively knows when to keep the flow and when to (occasionally) look for his offense ... and I believe that as part of this overall mix of being the team conductor, it is important in today's NBA that the point guard can stretch the D and knock down an open 3 here and there. So Devin is innately missing some key ingredients. I really believe he's a 2-guard but at the 2, not having a jumper may be even more of a liability than at point. He's just an odd fit in the backcourt all around. We know that he has good numbers and can drive and defend -- nobody is really arguing that -- it's just whether the guy really makes you better. I remain very unconvinced.

Also, you seem to be making an assumption that Thorn really values Harris highly. And based on what? Good numbers like 20 and 8. Thorn already had a point guard who put up big numbers like 20 and 8, whose major attack was driving in the halfcourt, who had a shakey jumper, who didn't make his teammates better and who didn't run the show ... and he mar-buried that guy if you recall. Now obviously he would take the best offer he can get for Harris if he decides to trade him, and who knows where that offer will come from, but I believe that he will look to deal Harris in the coming 1, 2, maybe 3 years. That's my strong hunch. Thorn is a great GM and he sees that Harris just doesn't make you a lot better. The good news for the Nets is that at that price and those numbers, Harris should have nice trade value.

[K_ick_God]

One other point is that I think it actually very reasonable and fair to compare Devin to Nate on the offensive end. It's not like Nate doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Devin. I'm not a big stats fan but I think the statistics at least provide a good snapshot of how comparable they are:

Nate was 17.2 PPG in 29.9 MPG and Devin was 21.3 PPG in 36.1 MPG.

Neither is a point guard.

Their overall FG% was almost identical (.437 for Nate, .438 for Devin).

Both drive and finish.

Nate has the better jumper and shot 32.5% on 385 attempts from 3 while Devin shot 29.1% on 220 attempts from 3.

[Pharmcat]

nets are set at PG and C, so that has to give them the advantage

[NyKnicks1714]

.

Everything with Harris goes back to his FTA's -- what we on the Knicks board knows is primarily due to the NBA trying to manufacture "superstars".

So the facts that he's one of the fastest players in the league, one of the most athletic at his possesion, and that he takes it to the rim time after time means nothing? It's easy to just take away FTA from an argument by saying "oh that's just the NBA trying to "manufacture a superstar". These guys earn their free throws. Again, I wonder why Kevin Martin's name never comes up when people talk about "manufactured superstars". Probably because there's no reason for anyone here to dislike him.

[kane2021]

I will tell you nets fans another thing also. And this is coming from a fan of a team that KNOWS bad press. If ANYTHING dirty comes back on that Russian during this venture it will be international news. Not local. Not national. International.

Already reports claim this guy is a mobster type. With connections.

If you are looking to move a professional sports team from Jersey to Brooklyn the dirty way, why not get a NY mobster and get a clean cover boy. A cover boy that is a house hold name. You would get in less trouble if you get caught. And it would be easier to keep under the rug.

Like.......................JAY-Z maybe?

Self proclaimed gangster/millionaire/king of NY/clean business man, this cat has so many faces and self given titles. But came up short here.

To be fair any russian with real money is an oligarch and thus a "mobster type" hell, my old man went to college with a few of those "mobster types" it's not really the same thing as when you say mobster over here and think about the godfather.

OK thats fair. Different countrys different cultures. What you say is understandable. I wish them well honestly. I think they would do OK in BK. I just dont see them being a threat to us next off season.

Guys say the nets are a better option then us because of this move and that players wont come here because we are rebuilding. It really is a little foolish to me. Our team is rebuilding now. Like theres. But there franchise is rebuilding as a whole.

They say guys wont come here because the jury is out on our talent. But,.......the nets havnt even laid a brick down. How can someone say the nets are a better option in 2010 when all they have is a drawing and a model of where they will be playing? Even IF they throw something together by next summer, it has no reputation. A player would not know what type of support is there. A building has to be up, and games have to be played there before a savy young star commits. Nets fans have something to look forward to. But for next season its not realistic.

[StutterStep]

Harris is far better than you're giving him credit for but yes I agree he could pass more. ...That's what Harris is..... one of the better Combo guards in the league in the mold of Monta Ellis. Harris averaged 7ast so let's stop acting like he doesn't pass. I mean shall we start attacking Tony Parker, Jason Terry, Bibby in his Prime, Chauncey Billups, Kirk Hinrich(who you like but sucks as a distributor) as overrated players because they shoot a lot and pass less?

You just gave a bunch of players I don't like to try to convince me I'm underrating Harris. Terry was horrible in Atlanta -- oh, I mean he filled the scoring column like Harris on a bad team and now he's a 6th man.

You know I'm not a Monta fan though the jury is still out. Tony Parker - his game has grown but again because he's improved his jumper but early on it was all the TD and Spurs effect.

Yeah, but Bibby never had an ugly game and always could shoot...same can be said for Billups and Hinrich. Again, Harris has no jumpshot so I know his points are because of flailing in the lane.

[cgf]

nets are set at C(ombo)G and C, so that has to give them the advantage

fixed