Knicks-Heat PG Thread

[thebuzzardman]

I think with KP, Frank & Hardaway there is a potential of 3 GREAT two way players & we would be missing that one elite guy to put us over the top. Maybe we could get that player in the draft or through free agency.

Yup. Free agency is a tough go unless kanter opts out. Incremental trades could get us somewhere too.

The upside over the D'Antoni years is we actually have all our picks but it's a narrow path. Very little room for error. We need to hit home runs and maybe get some lottery magic. The upcoming draft is serious business.

Eloquently stated.

Do you think it’s possible we trade Lee & Quinn for a first? Enes would be a long shot but maybe something for him as well.

Perfect scenario is by draft time we have 2-3 picks and use them to trade up.

Have to agree here. Knicks have a TIGHT margin for improvement.

Lee, Quinn have to go. They've played well but guys like this are replaceable. I honestly don't care if Kanter stays on. I was against him until I liked him and there is something to be said for having a dirty work (sort of) C for KP, but I'd move Kanter for a rebounding, 15 foot jumper making PF in a heartbeat.

[OpiumDose]

KP is a dominant defensive force and an elite finisher. He'll have some moves in his prime but I don't think he's a guy where you give him the ball and something happens. Physique and skillset more than anything. Hardaway is that a bit and they'll need another guy. Frank might have it too. I wouldn't count him out. He has the frame to do just about anything but with him I do think mindset is an issue. With these pieces it will have to be a committee.

This. I've said he's "more Ewing and less Melo", in terms of extreme comparisons. Note to thickheaded posters: I'm not saying his playing style is Ewing or that he'll get to Ewings level (or he might in a different way) or that Ewing wasn't better sooner (he was)

It's that while eventually Ewing did figure out how to back down guys and score, he was always dependent on a guard feeding him the ball in the post first. Long story short, Melo was a shot creator for himself, Pat not so much and KP isn't a shot creator either, on the whole. The rub is that KP's post game needs a ton of work which is what you want with a big who (like most) don't create that much.

Which is why the Knicks should be running the P&R with KP a LOT and why they need someone besides a bunch of semi stiff C's playing alongside him.

I don't think he was. Ewing as a rookie was a year older than KP is now. And Ewing's breakout season was his 5th season (27 years old) - he improved his scoring from 22.7 to 28.6, rebounds from 9.3 to 10.9. Ewing in his 3rd season put up pretty much the same numbers as he did in his rookie year (20.2 pts & 8.2 rebs).

[thebuzzardman]

GIANTS FANS, IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON FROM ELI AND BUILD A BETTER OFFENSIVE LINE FOR THE FUTURE.



OH, about the Knicks. You can't have a winning culture without winning talent and good coaching. Just ask the contenders. Knicks didn't want to listen to me like always. What will they gain after this season and will they be drafting another player for the bench?

Knicks are the Jets who don't know when it's time to mail it in and rebuild

[thebuzzardman]

KP is a dominant defensive force and an elite finisher. He'll have some moves in his prime but I don't think he's a guy where you give him the ball and something happens. Physique and skillset more than anything. Hardaway is that a bit and they'll need another guy. Frank might have it too. I wouldn't count him out. He has the frame to do just about anything but with him I do think mindset is an issue. With these pieces it will have to be a committee.

This. I've said he's "more Ewing and less Melo", in terms of extreme comparisons. Note to thickheaded posters: I'm not saying his playing style is Ewing or that he'll get to Ewings level (or he might in a different way) or that Ewing wasn't better sooner (he was)

It's that while eventually Ewing did figure out how to back down guys and score, he was always dependent on a guard feeding him the ball in the post first. Long story short, Melo was a shot creator for himself, Pat not so much and KP isn't a shot creator either, on the whole. The rub is that KP's post game needs a ton of work which is what you want with a big who (like most) don't create that much.

Which is why the Knicks should be running the P&R with KP a LOT and why they need someone besides a bunch of semi stiff C's playing alongside him.

I don't think he was. Ewing rookie was a year older than KP is now. And Ewing's breakout season was his 5th season (27 years old) - he improved his scoring from 22.7 to 28.6, rebounds from 9.3 to 10.9. Ewing in his 3rd season put up pretty much the same numbers as he did in his rookie year (20.2 pts & 8.2 rebs).

You're sort of missing the point. I'm not making a KP\Ewing comparison based on potential or actuality or anything. I should have even left that sentence out. It's more that they were/are players that need to be set up. On the one hand I appreciate the Knicks/Jeff forcing KP into the post and developing that game (maybe this is the the development they were talking about ), on the other hand, he's not good enough for too much "Ok, I've got the ball here, I'm going to score"

[thebuzzardman]

Watch on YouTube

I didn't bother watching mid 4th onward.

Easy to deny P&Rs when the refs let Johnson play zone.

[thebuzzardman]

KP is back to having trouble posting up players 6-8 inches smaller than him. I don't understand how he either can't keep the player on his hip or get the foul call. Though the refs are really letting players maul him so it's not all his fault.

I expect KP to probably end up at around 20-22 ppg by the end of the year. That's still steady improvement from his rookie year. I'm not concerned though he clearly has work to do. No more summers in Latvia.

Simple answer: Fatigue.

He actually really is tired.

Sad but true.

[thebuzzardman]

Frank has been terrible of late... tough to watch those other draft picks play better and look so much more ready right now... really thought he was going to be better.... patience is a virtue but i'm still not sold... solid defense at times, some good passes at times, obvious rookie struggles but I just wish he had a better overall game right now, more aggressive mentality, more explosive at the rim, better shot etc etc...... we'll see, hopefully he isn't a bust, at 19 its way to early for that but we will see if he is their PG as times goes on.

So you missed all those scouting reports that said he was a project, right?

[thebuzzardman]

Lance Thomas

28min

1 pts
0-2 fg
1-2 ft
2 reb
1 stl
1 blk
2 to
3 fouls

-12

I'd take that performance over a 7'3 volume shooter who shoots 30% from field on 20shot attempts per game

Basically, we need to remind ChilledAlex every time LFT has a LFT game from here on out. Since LFT is his idea of a franchise player.

[April madness]

I'm only up to page 7 of reading, but surprised it hasn't come up.

KP decided he needed to train all summer and also play for the Latvian team in the Eurocup, action which had all of us oohin and ahhing over his clips and how it helped him be "the man"

This activity took place for a player many many people on here and in the media speculated had stamina\anemia\something issues that made him tail off in the 2nd half of seasons

So, now he's tailing off HARD.

Gee, I wonder what the cause might be.

Maybe. On the other hand, playing him on our national team showed everyone the way he can be used to excel (he's not used that way here) and he got some experience of winning with a team. Probably if they had won Euro champs he'd not be pushing to play with national team for some time (till the World cup), but I think he will want to play. He wants to already this summer. Do you think an extra month would really solve his stamina/anemia problem? I wonder if he trusts Knicks to help him find the right way of training during the summer

It showed him the way etc etc etc. I'm not denying that.

What isn't deniable is that the guy is completely physically shot out there. Which, as I pointed out, sort of happens anyway. If it's not clear to the Knicks now, it never will be, but if KP came off playing 3 hard weeks before preseason even started, they should have been giving him every 5th game off.
Imagine the Knicks actually make the playoffs? KP would have you thinking he's the white ghost of Manute Bol out there.

Can't deny that. He doesn't look well. The defenses he faces physically wear him out. If there was someone else on team who could exploit the fact KP is getting doubled, that would make a BIT easier for him, but he has to have the stamina to be aggressive on offense all the time so that teams are actually focusing on him AND he has to pass out of doubles, etc. Hopefully he figures it out. But his off season training is a big puzzle. Maybe they should shut him down after all star break and lock him into a lab for a month or so and find out what's going on with his body and find out the right regime for him.

[Fat]

majority of the time when lee has a good game we lose i already knew the outcome of this from the first quarter

[Jalen Bluntson]

I'm only up to page 7 of reading, but surprised it hasn't come up.

KP decided he needed to train all summer and also play for the Latvian team in the Eurocup, action which had all of us oohin and ahhing over his clips and how it helped him be "the man"

This activity took place for a player many many people on here and in the media speculated had stamina\anemia\something issues that made him tail off in the 2nd half of seasons

So, now he's tailing off HARD.

Gee, I wonder what the cause might be.

Maybe. On the other hand, playing him on our national team showed everyone the way he can be used to excel (he's not used that way here) and he got some experience of winning with a team. Probably if they had won Euro champs he'd not be pushing to play with national team for some time (till the World cup), but I think he will want to play. He wants to already this summer. Do you think an extra month would really solve his stamina/anemia problem? I wonder if he trusts Knicks to help him find the right way of training during the summer

It showed him the way etc etc etc. I'm not denying that.

What isn't deniable is that the guy is completely physically shot out there. Which, as I pointed out, sort of happens anyway. If it's not clear to the Knicks now, it never will be, but if KP came off playing 3 hard weeks before preseason even started, they should have been giving him every 5th game off.
Imagine the Knicks actually make the playoffs? KP would have you thinking he's the white ghost of Manute Bol out there.

I agree with the national team stuff. He looks tired. If he can't push it in JANUARY, what will we get in April?

That said, I also think it's mental too. He's out there all alone for the last how many weeks? 19 games as the number one option(1st time ever) with no consistent number 2 and defenses focusing on keeping him out of the game. He's looks a little frazzled with the losses piling up. His game is suffering.

Then there's the roster.

Jack....he's a backup.
Lee...He's having a great year for his standards. He's had great games. That hasn't been very consistent though.
MFLFT...really? I'm done.
Kanter/KOQ...backup centers.
Frank....can't get past the 3 point line most posessions and doesn't score.
Beasley...up and down but...can't knock him too much.
Baker...no offense.

It's teams loading up on KP and daring that cast to beat them. This is now on Jeff. KP CAN NOT GET POSITION IN THE POST! STOP playing him there. Teams are pushing him all over the court. Smaller guys are underneath him on mismatches and he STILL can't get position too often.

Pick and roll. Pick and pop. Get him the ball moving towards the rim with the defense moving so they can't pin him down. Or move the ball to get him open looks on the perimeter. He is NOT a post up player.

Kanter getting the ball on the perimeter while KP is getting pushed all over the place trying to get position...this is NOT WORKING! Teams then swarm him when he does manage to get the ball. They aren't afraid of anyone else on the team.

I'm losing faith in Jeff more and more lately. The roster is rather weak but, make adjustments. It's been long enough to see what isn't working yet...we keep doing it. The guard play has fallen off a cliff though as well.

The wheels are falling off yet again. I still think Timmy makes a difference and...maybe Burke could bring some scoring we need at the point. Sessions/Jack/Baker/Frank combine for about 8 points on 30% shooting!

Tank commanders unite. The dream is alive and well. Not quite a top 5 pick but, if this keeps up...top 10 is on the menu. Depends on what happens with Timmy/Burke and any other moves we make(if any) by the deadline. Which way does the FO decide to go?

I was enjoying the winning and I really wish we could have had a healthy Timmy/team to see where we really would be right now. The natural tank is happening.

The FO needs to decide what they are doing. The youth movement speech in the summer and the meritocracy/ win now mode 180 give me a little pause. Do they think it's STILL a better idea to push for the playoffs as opposed to shutting it down and looking to add a higher pick to this team? This is what remains to be seen. I think they are hoping for Timmy to come back and get them back on track. Maybe add Burke to see what he can do. I think at this point...that's a bad idea.

Is Timmy even cleared to run yet?

Looking at the schedule...even with the road woes...it's fairly weak.

[thebuzzardman]

Frank has his issues but an easy fix for KP would be to start Frank and put Frank and KP in the P&R often.

I'm not even saying it would be awesome, but would solve some stuff for both guys.

Might even be something to the idea of future pieces getting experience together.

I mean, Jack and LFT might not even be here in 2 years.

[F N 11]

These Ls are on KP.

Teams have adjusted. He hasn't. Blame PG or whatever but #1 options don't have this many let down games in a row like he has.

Being an Alpha is much easier said than done. He's not a LeBron type dude, but since he's the leader he gets the blame(according to this board).

No one can carry these bums. Not even Melo. The team has been lacking talent for years. I watched a video last night Knicks come out to NWO theme and the lineup was

Larkin
Shumpert
Melo
Acy
Dalembert

Are you kidding meeeeeee

[Tron Carter]

Condolences on the loss and a somewhat-premature 'I told you so' to the guy who told me dropping John Collins for Michael Beasley was a absolutely horrible move for my fantasy team.

#SuperCoolBeas4MVP

i'm sitting comfortably in first in my league i'll play the long game. collins upside is higher. once hardaway comes back beasley's usage rate will take a hit. enjoy the ride though he's been fun. start poking your chest out when he's doing this when timmy comes back.

[Fat Kat]

I'm only up to page 7 of reading, but surprised it hasn't come up.

KP decided he needed to train all summer and also play for the Latvian team in the Eurocup, action which had all of us oohin and ahhing over his clips and how it helped him be "the man"

This activity took place for a player many many people on here and in the media speculated had stamina\anemia\something issues that made him tail off in the 2nd half of seasons

So, now he's tailing off HARD.

Gee, I wonder what the cause might be.

Here's the thread for anyone that wants to review

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1555750#start_here

[Reign23]

very VERY strong tankwin. I was so mad about McD for a few minutes

[Greenie]

Which is why I’ve always laughed at the team vs player arguments over the years on this board.

If you’ve ever played ball whether it’s the Park, organized basketball, high basketball, college basketball (I’ve done all 4), you’d know there is only so much the team aspect of basketball will carry you. It’s amazing to have players that flow within the offense & hits open shots, but you still need that “dog” in you that decides what a main scorer is and what a complimentary scorer is.

Creating a shot is not KP’s strength.....at all.

He can go in the post and hit a fade or a hook, he can awkwardly dribble & awkwardly put up a shot that goes in but giving him the ball telling him to make a decision whether it’s creating a shot or setting up shots for others is not his strength.

And to be honest we don’t have 5 years to figure it out, we’re on a timetable & we have to decide if he’s the 1st option or the 2nd option. We made that mistake twice already with Amare & Melo, which is why once again this season is infuriating me to no end because this is the last season before the draft reform & the perfect rebuilding year to be terrible out the gate.

But I digress, KP so far doesn’t have the attitude where he can say I don’t need to be spoon fed I got this. And there is nothing wrong with that, he just can’t be our franchise player if that’s the case. It’s not fair of the position he’s in because of the surrounding players he has but life isn’t fair.

This

11 ppg and 4.6 rpg 1 block in 50 games in Europe in 2014-2015.

Has he not made some serious strides playing in the best basketball league in the world?

I would say astoundingly yes. You people have just held him to this measuring stick of "franchise player". So what if he doesn't become that? He's still a hell of a player and a hell of a pick.

Do we not need a franchise player? Do we not want to win championships eventually?

If KP isn't that franchise guy then we are in trouble and looking at another decade of bull.

[Greenie]

if a bench piece is your key starter then there is something even more wrong with this team.

But we're not a good team.

We are slowly becoming what I felt was the worst case scenario for this year: 1st two Mike D years. Vets getting a heavy percentage of the PT & shots. Winning meaningless games because of the vets who won’t be here for when we make our push. Not good enough to make the postseason but not bad enough to get a high enough pick to get a franchise cornerstone.

I hope I’m wrong but that is what’s it’s starting to resemble

Yep.
Welcome to the pre-2010 years.

[Greenie]

Hey Cap

yeah, greenie did predict this.....often

She built the bridge and then predicted people would cross it.

Been a Knick fan for a long time. We are all insane.

[Reign23]

Another season we’re we’ve been bamboozled. Perry and Mills said this was a year of development and youth, but Jarret Jack played the entire overtime period over our 8th pick Frank Ntilikina.

this franchise does always the wrong thing. every.single.time.