PG Thread: Excellent loss

[dakomish23]

Frank is really developing that euro step as his go to move. Things are progressing for him... Just at snails pace. Something many don't want to hear. PATIENCE

Some Knicks fans love potential but have no patience.

[thebuzzardman]

Can't compare KP to Melo.
Melo was terribly defensively.
KP led the league in rim protection efficiency.

Greenie was comparing that Melo caught grief for hoisting up shots inefficiently, while KP would do the same but not be called on it. Also, both guys are guys who sort of need to be fed the ball - not run an offense through - not yet for KP, maybe never.

Obviously KP is the better defender, though I'd expect the "KP can't guard the perimeter" argument to get trotted out.
KP still makes teams play different when he gets to guard the post, and he was there often enough for me to see the impact, and I'm sure everyone else.

Melo's defensive specialty was to blow his defensive assignment and then point at a teammate. THJr is getting pretty good at that too.

THJ has def picked up the mantle. I thought Felton was the biggest culprit. Must have done it 500x that 13-14 season

Oh man, I forgot about that. That might have been the single worst defense a Knick ever played. And it's weird, as Felton was decent before that. I think that was his most out of shape year.

[DOT]

So every inefficient shot is a Melo shot? Cool. Now move on.

On this board? Yeah.

As I said before. Either we want efficient players or we don’t.

Replace Melo with Timmy. Same rules apply. One of Timmy biggest knocks is his utter lack of efficiency.

People literally call dude a female. Knox is literally shooting worse from the field. Rookie or not efficiency should be a concern.

Here are the issues you are conflating, somewhat.

While it's fair to point out KP has some Melo tendencies (not the greatest distributor, puts up enuff shots, not super efficient) and Knox can definitely put them up without shooting a great percentage, not unlike THJr, there's a few important differences, well, really like 2, that separate them all from each other.

KP vs Melo
Melo was a better scorer all the way around, and just may wind up career wise. KP is 7'3", alters shots at the rim and changes the defensive complexion in a way Melo NEVER did. I'd add KP is a way more willing defender than at least Knick Melo and a good defender overall (some debate there I know) while Melo was a middling defender from the start and steadily got less interested in defense, and therefore started to actually suck at it, as his Knick career went on.

Knox vs THJr. Both take a bunch o' 3's. Both not make often a bunch o' 3's. Sometimes each guy gets hot and makes a bunch of 3's. THJr is clearly more offensively refined right now and is the superior offensive player. Probably better at passing too, when he flashes that desire every 5th game. Both take a lot of shots, both force it at times, both somewhat streaky, both not good defenders. THJr might be a better defender than Knox, at the moment.

Key differences
Melo was an enormous cap eating contract and had many years more experience of KP; KP gets some benefit of the doubt that that he would/still might develop. It's also fair to say he might not and every criticism today will be just as true 2,4,6 years from now.
Most important difference? KP still on that rookie scale.
Knox is 19. Knox is on his rookie scale. Knox might get better. Last year I thought THJr might improve (some) into his contract. Maybe he did, a little, in handling the scoring load, but really, he's not that much different from when he signed that ridiculous contract. (Thanks Mills).

Sure, I know the counter will be "players should get theirs" and "it's not their fault they got the $, it's the FO" and that's correct and valid. But in a sport where there's a hard enough cap, dollars vs performance and years/dollars impact on the future growth of the team color and drive fan perception.

I mean, I really like Alan Houston as a Knick, but for his last 2,3 years? I kind of hated him. Couldn't wait for him to be gone. Because his contract was a killer. Sort of irrational? I guess so. So is watching a bunch of guys running around sweating trying to throw a rubber sphere into a metal ring.


Let me expand a little to another post I was going to make. It's a little bit about the game.

Mario plays a little bit better when THJr isn't out there. It's probably a good idea they aren't on the floor together. (Well, if you care about defense for starters). But it's because Mario kind of plays like the bleached crappy version of THJr, but a little bit more pass first. Both want the ball in their hands, both are kind of reckless with shot selection, the difference being THJr makes his drives and those are pretty solid, while THJr is more reckless and not in control on jumpers. Both just play a little dumb a little too often and like having the ball. Difference? Mario only costs 6 million or whatever and is on a one year deal.
Just like Trier is "THJr like" in terms of tunnel vision, questionable shots, tendency to wander and not lock in on D. Cost? 4 million for 2 years?
Each player feels like 75% of THJr, for 1/4 or 1/2 the years, at 1/3 to 1/4 the cost.

Lets move on the Mudiay, Frank and Burke.
Other than different styles of play, they are all polarizing, to one degree or another. Other than having stuff to complain about and the classic "this player vs that player" on Knicks realgm, I find it hard to really hate any of them. Yeah, I prefer Frank, but Mudiay has been decent. Mudiay aggravates in some ways, Frank in others, Burke in others still. Franks on a rookie deal (ironically here potentially the longest), Mudiay was acquired when he had half a season and 1 more year for a spare part in McDermott and Burke cost nothing but taking a G-League flyer last year and signing him to 1 year deal this year.

Unlike Knick players of old who I couldn't stand because the team was stuck with them and the team tied it's own hands with them, ruining both present play and future hope for the fans, at least this iteration, while not all that great, has players there is a hope they might get better - actuality might say otherwise - and that aren't impacting future ability to be flexible, get better.

If KP winds up getting 35-40 million per and is the same guy he was last year and the year before, yeah, I'm going to be a critic.

It's one of the reasons why when people float "Trade KP" ideas, I don't dismiss them. KP might wind up in place where he's paid like a top top top of the league superstar and produces a bit below Kevin Love, overall.

This is pretty much all that needs to be said, excellent post

Players are not all evaluated on the same criteria. Tim gets grief because he's highly paid and isn't really young any more. Frank gets more leash than Mudiay cause he's on a rookie scale for two more years than Mudiay. This year would've been the year I would've stopped giving KP the benefit of the doubt, but he's injured. Knox is a rookie, so whatever he does is fine as long as we see flashes he's fine

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[3toheadmelo]

Can't compare KP to Melo.
Melo was terribly defensively.
KP led the league in rim protection efficiency.

Greenie was comparing that Melo caught grief for hoisting up shots inefficiently, while KP would do the same but not be called on it. Also, both guys are guys who sort of need to be fed the ball - not run an offense through - not yet for KP, maybe never.

Obviously KP is the better defender, though I'd expect the "KP can't guard the perimeter" argument to get trotted out.
KP still makes teams play different when he gets to guard the post, and he was there often enough for me to see the impact, and I'm sure everyone else.

Melo's defensive specialty was to blow his defensive assignment and then point at a teammate. THJr is getting pretty good at that too.

THJ has def picked up the mantle. I thought Felton was the biggest culprit. Must have done it 500x that 13-14 season

man Felton had to be the worst pg in the league that year. u have no idea how much times he pissed me off

[Deeeez Knicks]

Seeing Frank driving and taking it to the rim was nice. He got stopped a few times and needs to work on his finishing, but his aggressive mentality was great to see.

Overall he played with a nice pace. Kept the ball moving when nothing was there, and made his move when there was an opening. It just makes things flow much better.

That is a trait I like from Knox too. He doesn't hold the ball for long. Makes quick moves, and is great at cutting, playing off the ball and finding openings.

[magnumt]

Most people hated Melo for this reason...but love Knox and KP who are both doing their best to immitate him.

If the goal was to move towards more effective and efficient scoring then this is not the answer.

People will point to PG...which is the same issue as before.

12-24 FGs
4-9 3PTs
3-4 FTs

Remind me again how those %s are NOT good for a Wing? Also, you hate when people randomly bring up Melo, yet here you are doing just that.

—Mags

Do I get to actually respond or will I be told to leave it alone since it won’t be what you wanna hear?

Because I have an actual response.

No you don’t. Melo is no longer a Knick. If you want to discuss him, try the GB or our stickies ATNBA Thread. Thanks!

Also, don’t try and backseat Moderate in the future every time any other former Knick is mentioned. They didn’t rile of the board the way he did. Thanks!

—Mags

[taj2133]

Frank played solid yesterday and knox played great.

[whocares1]

Well, clearly DRPM is the be all and end all for analyzing player defense.

I mean, I always suspected Mudiay was the superior defender to Frank. Thank god there is this metric to support my suspicions.

And yet people were going balls deep for that starting lineup that had the best net rating. You can’t use statistics to back your argument and then claim they’re silly when they don’t.

DRPM ranks defensive performance NOT defenders.
Last season Mudiay was 80/80 in DRPM. I guess last season the stat was accurate but this season it isn’t right?

Point is that Mudiay has statistically been a better defender than Frank. That is a fact.

DRPM is different then NET Ratings.

Neither is the end all be all, and both need context.

Basically if you are 75/98 or 80/80, it is not a ranking system but points to signs that you are a bad defender.

Nobody said Mudiay was a good defender. The person complained that Mudiay was the worst defensive point guard in the league while statistically this season he hasn’t been.

Then using your logic 75/98 and 80/80 means your a bad defender then Frank sitting at 89/98 means he’s one too?

If both stats need context then I don’t want to people using those stats to justify their arguments or calling someone an idiot for not following it 100%. It’s that simple.

[jvsimonetti0514]

I would say yesterday's game is Knox's third great game of the season. What's most impressive is he did this against good defenders like Butler and Simmons. He seems to be learning when he should use that floater or take it all the way to the hoop. All it took was one Embiid swat to change how he's attacking. Even finished over Embiid later in the game. I also loved that he didn't lose confidence in his 3 ball after starting the game 1-5. The one thing I've noticed is he's very right hand dominate when he's attacking the hoop. I'm not really sure if I've ever seen him finish with his left hand. Opposing teams are going to figure this out sooner rather than later.

I guess benching Frank when his Mom came to visit really lit a fire under Frank's azz. He usually struggles against TJ McConnell but was extremely aggressive. We all knew he worked on some moves in the offseason but was scared to use them until the last two games. I was pretty impressed with the couple of eurosteps he pulled off. If he keeps this aggression up I don't see why he can't take the starting role back from Mudiay.

I'm also pretty proud of the guys for not folding when down 24 and props to Fiz for whatever changes he made at half time because we dominated the 3rd.

[dakomish23]

Seeing Frank driving and taking it to the rim was nice. He got stopped a few times and needs to work on his finishing, but his aggressive mentality was great to see.

Overall he played with a nice pace. Kept the ball moving when nothing was there, and made his move when there was an opening. It just makes things flow much better.

That is a trait I like from Knox too. He doesn't hold the ball for long. Makes quick moves, and is great at cutting, playing off the ball and finding openings.

Just waiting for him to put it all together.

[magnumt]

Frank played solid yesterday and knox played great.

He’s really good at stabilizing things for a foreign 19 year old PG. His Defense is ridiculous as we all know. He & Ja Morant would be the PERFECT backcourt of the future. With Trier & Mudiay off the bench.

Also, really like it how Mario functions as a Point-Forward. Moves the ball well, especially in transition.

Ja / Mudiay
Frank / Trier
Knox / Dotson
Porzingis / Vonleh
Robinson / Kornet



—Mags

[Deeeez Knicks]

And yet people were going balls deep for that starting lineup that had the best net rating. You can’t use statistics to back your argument and then claim they’re silly when they don’t.

DRPM ranks defensive performance NOT defenders.
Last season Mudiay was 80/80 in DRPM. I guess last season the stat was accurate but this season it isn’t right?

Point is that Mudiay has statistically been a better defender than Frank. That is a fact.

DRPM is different then NET Ratings.

Neither is the end all be all, and both need context.

Basically if you are 75/98 or 80/80, it is not a ranking system but points to signs that you are a bad defender.

Nobody said Mudiay was a good defender. The person complained that Mudiay was the worst defensive point guard in the league while statistically this season he hasn’t been.

Then using your logic 75/98 and 80/80 means your a bad defender then Frank sitting at 89/98 means he’s one too?

If both stats need context then I don’t want to people using those stats to justify their arguments or calling someone an idiot for not following it 100%. It’s that simple.

I said it points to signs that he is a bad defender, but it needs context meaning you should not draw conclusions from this alone. IMO, DRPM is one of the most flawed stats. There is too much variance from year to year and too many outliers. This stat had Jose Calderon as a good defender last year and #17 at PG. Some guys are ranked accordingly, but other ratings are off.

Either way Mudiay is a horrible defensive player. There are plenty of signs that point to that.

Frank has had his struggles this year and has been disappointing, but he is unquestionably a better defender then Mudiay and can still be a very good defender.

[Clyde_Style]

Frank played solid yesterday and knox played great.

He’s really good at stabilizing things for a foreign 19 year old PG. His Defense is ridiculous as we all know. He & Ja Morant would be the PERFECT backcourt of the future. With Trier & Mudiay off the bench.


Ja / Mudiay
Frank / Trier
Knox / Dotson
Porzingis / Vonleh
Robinson / Kornet



—Mags

Preach

Best thing for Frank right now is to eat those blocks and keep coming back for more pain at the rim until he starts converting those jams. I like the aggression. He has already shown some nice finishing ability when he is working the angles to the rack. Right now he's getting stopped on straight line approaches, but that will improve if he doesn't let the stops discourage him. Just play him the rest of the season and you'll see major strides taken. I believe

[taj2133]

Frank played solid yesterday and knox played great.

He’s really good at stabilizing things for a foreign 19 year old PG. His Defense is ridiculous as we all know. He & Ja Morant would be the PERFECT backcourt of the future. With Trier & Mudiay off the bench.

Also, really like it how Mario functions as a Point-Forward. Moves the ball well, especially in transition.

Ja / Mudiay
Frank / Trier
Knox / Dotson
Porzingis / Vonleh
Robinson / Kornet



—Mags

I said this couple weeks ago that frank should average around 10 points and 5 assist for the rest of the season.

[Spree2Houston]

Frank is a keeper whether it's being a starter or 6th man. Like many of said, he brings stability to the offense. He makes it easier for the other guys.

[Sprewell4Three]

Frank is really developing that euro step as his go to move. Things are progressing for him... Just at snails pace. Something many don't want to hear. PATIENCE

Some Knicks fans love potential but have no patience.

The knowledgeable ones are patient . However those that buy high priced tickets aren’t. Unfortunately those the ones Dolan cares about the most.

[Spree2Houston]

Frank can be an all-star in this league. He has all the physical tools. It's all about how badly he wants it...

[F N 11]

Frank is a floor general. When hes on the floor everyone knows whats going on. He is still my PG. Addition by subraction. With KP, Knox, top 10 pick, and FA money you need glue guys like Frank.

Whats even more amazing is Knox and KP can play without the ball. Exciting times to be a knick fan.

[F N 11]

Watch on YouTube

They saying Curry need to learn from Knox lol

[Greenie]

12-24 FGs
4-9 3PTs
3-4 FTs

Remind me again how those %s are NOT good for a Wing? Also, you hate when people randomly bring up Melo, yet here you are doing just that.

—Mags

Do I get to actually respond or will I be told to leave it alone since it won’t be what you wanna hear?

Because I have an actual response.

No you don’t. Melo is no longer a Knick. If you want to discuss him, try the GB or our stickies ATNBA Thread. Thanks!

Also, don’t try and backseat Moderate in the future every time any other former Knick is mentioned. They didn’t rile of the board the way he did. Thanks!

—Mags

Oh so I don’t get to talk about Knox?
Got it.