Thibs needs to go

[rajajackal]

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I think this is simplifying the discussion by a lot. Keep in mind we traded our entire stock of picks up until 2030 in order for a real shot at a title. While I definitely agree that the overall record is very solid, the team currently does not seem in a position to challenge the top 3 teams in the league. IMO the Knicks current positioning is more a result of the great job Rose and the FO have done. This is the most talented knick team in decades---heck maybe since the 1970s, so we should be expecting good results.

Add to that the fact that it is not only Knicks fans but also Wolves and Bulls fans who frequently complained about the minute management by Thibs. So this has more of a universal character of fanbases witnessing Thibs coaching pointing to this issue.

But for me the most pressing point is this: After all this (good) trades we do not have a whole lot of room left to improve via trades in the near future and we won't have any good picks---so the only real way to still improve and upgrade the talent level and depth of this team is through organic, inner development, aka trusting the bench and giving younger players more of a shot. That does not seem to be something Thibs is willing to do in a big way. So the question would be: How are we going to improve as a team?

And then you have the repeating theme of Thibs playing his starters when up 20+ points with under 3-4 minutes left. Or bench players playing great in the first half but getting no burn in the second. Essentially Thibs shows very little trust and confidence in his bench. That's not good. Now you could say: "Well he and his staff watch the team every day in practice so he must have a better grasp of whom to play etc."----but then you have the Hartenstein situation where a pretty darn good Center was essentially getting 15 minutes a game and was disgruntled until injury luck forced Thibs hand.

100% facts. Add to this the fact that he plays mediocre offensive and defensive sets way too often and you have a recipe for disappointment in the playoffs (I hope I'm wrong!). Maybe Mitch's return and a bench upgrade at the deadline will push us to the next stratosphere in the playoffs... Maybe.

Otherwise, we'll get a new coach in the off-season (Hurley? Wright? someone else?).

We're in a good position regardless.

just wanna point out that we do have 2 potential 1sts this year, our own 1st next year, and our own 1st in 2028 and 2030. so we're in every 1st round draft except 27 and 29

[sol537]

How does one have two all-star team starters and could only coach his team to be the 5th best in the league?

This team is living on talent alone. The coaching is mediocre at best.

With elite coaching they'd be in the championship conversation.

Our record is entirely a reflection of how much talent we have and a soft schedule and nothing more.

To waste this talent on a knuckle dragging neanderthal like Thibs is criminal

They won't fire him in season because:

1) Bad optics... don't want to be lolknicks again
2) Thibs arguably "earned" the right to finish this season off
3) Thibs teams often do play better 2nd halfs of the season
4) We got Mitch and maybe a trade incoming to bolster the bench
5) New big time coaches rarely join mid-season... if we want Dan Hurley, summer is the better time.

Let's just hope Thibs improves and we don't get embarrassed in the playoffs. We'll extend Mikal on a reasonable deal and then we'll make bench improvements in the off-season and I predict we'll have a new coach running the ship. We can continue to contend for 4-5 more years at least and hoping we sneak at least one title in during that span. Some how... some way. Gotta be in it to win it, as they say.

[Clyde_Style]

This team is living on talent alone. The coaching is mediocre at best.

With elite coaching they'd be in the championship conversation.

Our record is entirely a reflection of how much talent we have and a soft schedule and nothing more.

To waste this talent on a knuckle dragging neanderthal like Thibs is criminal

They won't fire him in season because:

1) Bad optics... don't want to be lolknicks again
2) Thibs arguably "earned" the right to finish this season off
3) Thibs teams often do play better 2nd halfs of the season
4) We got Mitch and maybe a trade incoming to bolster the bench
5) New big time coaches rarely join mid-season... if we want Dan Hurley, summer is the better time.

Let's just hope Thibs improves and we don't get embarrassed in the playoffs. We'll extend Mikal on a reasonable deal and then we'll make bench improvements in the off-season and I predict we'll have a new coach running the ship. We can continue to contend for 4-5 more years at least and hoping we sneak at least one title in during that span. Some how... some way. Gotta be in it to win it, as they say.

They would only fire Thibs mid-season if we can't beat above .500 teams over the coming weeks, because that's mostly whom we're playing and that's how the FO will determine if we're even on track.

But if you think the optics are an issue, I believe you're completely wrong. Rose is untouchable at this point. Thibs is not. If Rose wants to contend this season, he'll pull the plug on Thibs, because anybody with eyes can see we're not making a deep playoff run with Thibs at the wheel. Almost any interim coach with sensible rotations would make a big difference considering the talent we have.

Do Thibs teams always have the softest schedule in the first half and the hardest schedule in the second half of the season? Yeah, I don't think there is any historical precedent for this season, especially when our five starters have been the top five in minutes in the NBA.

I agree with anyone who says Thib being removed mid-season is unlikely, but I completely disagree that Rose can't do it without suffering damage to his reputation. In the scheme of things, Thibs would be forgotten in five minutes. You guys are stuck in some kind of glacial mindset that somehow Thibs is a made man who can't be replaced. It's a myth. He can be sent packing at any time. He sure AF deserves to be at this point with how he is setting us up for playoff failure.

[sol537]

Our record is entirely a reflection of how much talent we have and a soft schedule and nothing more.

To waste this talent on a knuckle dragging neanderthal like Thibs is criminal

They won't fire him in season because:

1) Bad optics... don't want to be lolknicks again
2) Thibs arguably "earned" the right to finish this season off
3) Thibs teams often do play better 2nd halfs of the season
4) We got Mitch and maybe a trade incoming to bolster the bench
5) New big time coaches rarely join mid-season... if we want Dan Hurley, summer is the better time.

Let's just hope Thibs improves and we don't get embarrassed in the playoffs. We'll extend Mikal on a reasonable deal and then we'll make bench improvements in the off-season and I predict we'll have a new coach running the ship. We can continue to contend for 4-5 more years at least and hoping we sneak at least one title in during that span. Some how... some way. Gotta be in it to win it, as they say.

They would only fire Thibs mid-season if we can't beat above .500 teams over the coming weeks, because that's mostly whom we're playing and that's how the FO will determine if we're even on track.

But if you think the optics are an issue, I believe you're completely wrong. Rose is untouchable at this point. Thibs is not. If Rose wants to contend this season, he'll pull the plug on Thibs, because anybody with eyes can see we're not making a deep playoff run with Thibs at the wheel. Almost any interim coach with sensible rotations would make a big difference considering the talent we have.

Do Thibs teams always have the softest schedule in the first half and the hardest schedule in the second half of the season? Yeah, I don't think there is any historical precedent for this season, especially when our five starters have been the top five in minutes in the NBA.

I agree with anyone who says Thib being removed mid-season is unlikely, but I completely disagree that Rose can't do it without suffering damage to his reputation. In the scheme of things, Thibs would be forgotten in five minutes. You guys are stuck in some kind of glacial mindset that somehow Thibs is a made man who can't be replaced. It's a myth. He can be sent packing at any time. He sure AF deserves to be at this point with how he is setting us up for playoff failure.

I want him changed too but I don't think we can get a great replacement for him until the summer so is it worth the risk?

[Clyde_Style]

They won't fire him in season because:

1) Bad optics... don't want to be lolknicks again
2) Thibs arguably "earned" the right to finish this season off
3) Thibs teams often do play better 2nd halfs of the season
4) We got Mitch and maybe a trade incoming to bolster the bench
5) New big time coaches rarely join mid-season... if we want Dan Hurley, summer is the better time.

Let's just hope Thibs improves and we don't get embarrassed in the playoffs. We'll extend Mikal on a reasonable deal and then we'll make bench improvements in the off-season and I predict we'll have a new coach running the ship. We can continue to contend for 4-5 more years at least and hoping we sneak at least one title in during that span. Some how... some way. Gotta be in it to win it, as they say.

They would only fire Thibs mid-season if we can't beat above .500 teams over the coming weeks, because that's mostly whom we're playing and that's how the FO will determine if we're even on track.

But if you think the optics are an issue, I believe you're completely wrong. Rose is untouchable at this point. Thibs is not. If Rose wants to contend this season, he'll pull the plug on Thibs, because anybody with eyes can see we're not making a deep playoff run with Thibs at the wheel. Almost any interim coach with sensible rotations would make a big difference considering the talent we have.

Do Thibs teams always have the softest schedule in the first half and the hardest schedule in the second half of the season? Yeah, I don't think there is any historical precedent for this season, especially when our five starters have been the top five in minutes in the NBA.

I agree with anyone who says Thib being removed mid-season is unlikely, but I completely disagree that Rose can't do it without suffering damage to his reputation. In the scheme of things, Thibs would be forgotten in five minutes. You guys are stuck in some kind of glacial mindset that somehow Thibs is a made man who can't be replaced. It's a myth. He can be sent packing at any time. He sure AF deserves to be at this point with how he is setting us up for playoff failure.

I want him changed too but I don't think we can get a great replacement for him until the summer so is it worth the risk?

Yes, beyond a doubt it is worth it. The primary coaching Thibs does is between games, but not during. You could replace him with a 2x4 and our in-game adjustments wouldn't suffer. Any interim coach would play the starters less minutes and start to prep the bench for a playoff run which may be the primary adjustment replacing Thibs provides.

You just let Cheeks or Mark Bryant take the interim slot. It's not that big of a deal. Either of them would do a better job than Thibs. Cheeks has lots of experience and even got an inexperienced Sixers team back around 2008 I think that was expected to finish last in the EC to make the playoffs. And Bryant could be a big plus as a big man coach when it comes to Hukporti in particular.

The fact that Kolek is rotting on the bench is insane. We badly need a guy like him to be ready to go. Anyone who says he's sitting because he can't play D is off their rockers. Brunson is not exactly a shining light on defense and I've even seen Kolek improve on D in the little time he has played.

[Spree2Houston]

I think this is simplifying the discussion by a lot. Keep in mind we traded our entire stock of picks up until 2030 in order for a real shot at a title. While I definitely agree that the overall record is very solid, the team currently does not seem in a position to challenge the top 3 teams in the league. IMO the Knicks current positioning is more a result of the great job Rose and the FO have done. This is the most talented knick team in decades---heck maybe since the 1970s, so we should be expecting good results.

Add to that the fact that it is not only Knicks fans but also Wolves and Bulls fans who frequently complained about the minute management by Thibs. So this has more of a universal character of fanbases witnessing Thibs coaching pointing to this issue.

But for me the most pressing point is this: After all this (good) trades we do not have a whole lot of room left to improve via trades in the near future and we won't have any good picks---so the only real way to still improve and upgrade the talent level and depth of this team is through organic, inner development, aka trusting the bench and giving younger players more of a shot. That does not seem to be something Thibs is willing to do in a big way. So the question would be: How are we going to improve as a team?

And then you have the repeating theme of Thibs playing his starters when up 20+ points with under 3-4 minutes left. Or bench players playing great in the first half but getting no burn in the second. Essentially Thibs shows very little trust and confidence in his bench. That's not good. Now you could say: "Well he and his staff watch the team every day in practice so he must have a better grasp of whom to play etc."----but then you have the Hartenstein situation where a pretty darn good Center was essentially getting 15 minutes a game and was disgruntled until injury luck forced Thibs hand.

100% facts. Add to this the fact that he plays mediocre offensive and defensive sets way too often and you have a recipe for disappointment in the playoffs (I hope I'm wrong!). Maybe Mitch's return and a bench upgrade at the deadline will push us to the next stratosphere in the playoffs... Maybe.

Otherwise, we'll get a new coach in the off-season (Hurley? Wright? someone else?).

We're in a good position regardless.

just wanna point out that we do have 2 potential 1sts this year, our own 1st next year, and our own 1st in 2028 and 2030. so we're in every 1st round draft except 27 and 29

No picks this year. Detroit pick went in the Towns trade and Washington pick probably won’t convey

[Jalen Bluntson]

They would only fire Thibs mid-season if we can't beat above .500 teams over the coming weeks, because that's mostly whom we're playing and that's how the FO will determine if we're even on track.

But if you think the optics are an issue, I believe you're completely wrong. Rose is untouchable at this point. Thibs is not. If Rose wants to contend this season, he'll pull the plug on Thibs, because anybody with eyes can see we're not making a deep playoff run with Thibs at the wheel. Almost any interim coach with sensible rotations would make a big difference considering the talent we have.

Do Thibs teams always have the softest schedule in the first half and the hardest schedule in the second half of the season? Yeah, I don't think there is any historical precedent for this season, especially when our five starters have been the top five in minutes in the NBA.

I agree with anyone who says Thib being removed mid-season is unlikely, but I completely disagree that Rose can't do it without suffering damage to his reputation. In the scheme of things, Thibs would be forgotten in five minutes. You guys are stuck in some kind of glacial mindset that somehow Thibs is a made man who can't be replaced. It's a myth. He can be sent packing at any time. He sure AF deserves to be at this point with how he is setting us up for playoff failure.

I want him changed too but I don't think we can get a great replacement for him until the summer so is it worth the risk?

Yes, beyond a doubt it is worth it. The primary coaching Thibs does is between games, but not during. You could replace him with a 2x4 and our in-game adjustments wouldn't suffer. Any interim coach would play the starters less minutes and start to prep the bench for a playoff run which may be the primary adjustment replacing Thibs provides.

You just let Cheeks or Mark Bryant take the interim slot. It's not that big of a deal. Either of them would do a better job than Thibs. Cheeks has lots of experience and even got an inexperienced Sixers team back around 2008 I think that was expected to finish last in the EC to make the playoffs. And Bryant could be a big plus as a big man coach when it comes to Hukporti in particular.

The fact that Kolek is rotting on the bench is insane. We badly need a guy like him to be ready to go. Anyone who says he's sitting because he can't play D is off their rockers. Brunson is not exactly a shining light on defense and I've even seen Kolek improve on D in the little time he has played.

He isn't getting fired any time soon. It would take a collapse of epic proportion for that to happen. Not that it isn't possible. If he can't get this team to the playoffs healthy...the noise will be extremely loud at that point. I'm done with him myself but, whatever. Nothing is going to change much. Minutes/bench/offense/defense. Nothing. Whatever a healthy Mitch brings and/or whatever the trade deadline brings is the only change we are gonna see where the coaches decision making is involved. It's a wrap. Talent/chemistry/health is what we are relying on from here out. The coaching is going to be the same. Like it or not.

[Gravy]

Read on Twitter

Top 5 coach in the league. This is probably a play in team without him!

Carry on

[Clyde_Style]

I want him changed too but I don't think we can get a great replacement for him until the summer so is it worth the risk?

Yes, beyond a doubt it is worth it. The primary coaching Thibs does is between games, but not during. You could replace him with a 2x4 and our in-game adjustments wouldn't suffer. Any interim coach would play the starters less minutes and start to prep the bench for a playoff run which may be the primary adjustment replacing Thibs provides.

You just let Cheeks or Mark Bryant take the interim slot. It's not that big of a deal. Either of them would do a better job than Thibs. Cheeks has lots of experience and even got an inexperienced Sixers team back around 2008 I think that was expected to finish last in the EC to make the playoffs. And Bryant could be a big plus as a big man coach when it comes to Hukporti in particular.

The fact that Kolek is rotting on the bench is insane. We badly need a guy like him to be ready to go. Anyone who says he's sitting because he can't play D is off their rockers. Brunson is not exactly a shining light on defense and I've even seen Kolek improve on D in the little time he has played.

He isn't getting fired any time soon. It would take a collapse of epic proportion for that to happen. Not that it isn't possible. If he can't get this team to the playoffs healthy...the noise will be extremely loud at that point. I'm done with him myself but, whatever. Nothing is going to change much. Minutes/bench/offense/defense. Nothing. Whatever a healthy Mitch brings and/or whatever the trade deadline brings is the only change we are gonna see where the coaches decision making is involved. It's a wrap. Talent/chemistry/health is what we are relying on from here out. The coaching is going to be the same. Like it or not.

As in life, what good is money and fame without good health?

Our talent is nice, but our coaching will make it sick.

There's not much to hope for if Thibs remains. There is no reality where we can contend with him at the helm.

[Clyde_Style]

Read on Twitter

Top 5 coach in the league. This is probably a play in team without him!

Carry on

Because the only team with 2 All-Stars would be a play-in team without Thibs specifically. Derp

[Jalen Bluntson]

Yes, beyond a doubt it is worth it. The primary coaching Thibs does is between games, but not during. You could replace him with a 2x4 and our in-game adjustments wouldn't suffer. Any interim coach would play the starters less minutes and start to prep the bench for a playoff run which may be the primary adjustment replacing Thibs provides.

You just let Cheeks or Mark Bryant take the interim slot. It's not that big of a deal. Either of them would do a better job than Thibs. Cheeks has lots of experience and even got an inexperienced Sixers team back around 2008 I think that was expected to finish last in the EC to make the playoffs. And Bryant could be a big plus as a big man coach when it comes to Hukporti in particular.

The fact that Kolek is rotting on the bench is insane. We badly need a guy like him to be ready to go. Anyone who says he's sitting because he can't play D is off their rockers. Brunson is not exactly a shining light on defense and I've even seen Kolek improve on D in the little time he has played.

He isn't getting fired any time soon. It would take a collapse of epic proportion for that to happen. Not that it isn't possible. If he can't get this team to the playoffs healthy...the noise will be extremely loud at that point. I'm done with him myself but, whatever. Nothing is going to change much. Minutes/bench/offense/defense. Nothing. Whatever a healthy Mitch brings and/or whatever the trade deadline brings is the only change we are gonna see where the coaches decision making is involved. It's a wrap. Talent/chemistry/health is what we are relying on from here out. The coaching is going to be the same. Like it or not.

As in life, what good is money and fame without good health?

Our talent is nice, but our coaching will make it sick.

There's not much to hope for if Thibs remains. There is no reality where we can contend with him at the helm.

It's a path we are on that we can't change. I don't care for it. Never really have but, here we are. Will Thibs be our Mark Jackson? One can hope if they want. Right now I'm focusing on whatever positives I can find. Thibs is not gonna change. Maybe we get lucky and get hot when other teams are stumbling. Ya never know. Look at last year's playoffs for BOS.

[Gravy]

Read on Twitter

Top 5 coach in the league. This is probably a play in team without him!

Carry on

Because the only team with 2 All-Stars would be a play-in team without Thibs specifically. Derp

Brunson was an all star for the first time under Thibs and Towns is an allstar starter for the first time under Thibs. Great job by coach!

OG could be an all star too if he was not exhausted covering Town's bad defense all season.

[Fat Kat]

Top 5 coach in the league. This is probably a play in team without him!

Carry on

Because the only team with 2 All-Stars would be a play-in team without Thibs specifically. Derp

Brunson was an all star for the first time under Thibs and Towns is an allstar starter for the first time under Thibs. Great job by coach!

OG could be an all star too if he was not exhausted covering Town's bad defense all season.

Some of the folks coming for you were in the Frank hive. They’re relentless with no use for facts or logic. Beware

[Fat Kat]

[Enzo954]

Here's a hypothetical question for you guys. Would you rather?

A) The Knicks make it to the eastern conference finals, lose and Thibs keeps his job.

or

B) The Knicks lose in the first round of the playoffs and we bring in a new coach for next season.

Which path brings us a championship in the near future?

[Gravy]

Because the only team with 2 All-Stars would be a play-in team without Thibs specifically. Derp

Brunson was an all star for the first time under Thibs and Towns is an allstar starter for the first time under Thibs. Great job by coach!

OG could be an all star too if he was not exhausted covering Town's bad defense all season.

Some of the folks coming for you were in the Frank hive. They’re relentless with no use for facts or logic. Beware

Oh I know, its happening all over again. lol

[GettinitDone]

Top 5 coach in the league. This is probably a play in team without him!

Carry on

Because the only team with 2 All-Stars would be a play-in team without Thibs specifically. Derp

Brunson was an all star for the first time under Thibs and Towns is an allstar starter for the first time under Thibs. Great job by coach!

OG could be an all star too if he was not exhausted covering Town's bad defense all season.

Any coach would be "coaching" them to All Stars this season.

Thibs is far removed from his defense years in Chicago, and he's never known as an offensive coach. So what is he? A legs (for starters) and confidence (for bench/ rookies) destroyer? A sidelines yeller?

He coached them to become All Stars... let's not joke ourselves.

Thibs defenders like you are too afraid to take risks needed (Lakers replacing Westhead with no experience Pat Riley, Bulls replacing Doug Collins with no experience Phil Jackson, Warriors replacing Mark Jackson with no experience Steve Kerr) to win a championship. You're just too afraid we'll miss the playoffs, you'd rather see the team make the playoffs just for the sake of making the playoffs, and be a 1st/ 2nd rd exit.

I accidentally And1'd your post

[JayTWill]

Read on Twitter

Question, if in 2023 after the Knicks lost to the Heat in the 2nd round in 6 games I told you that the team would trade away almost all of it's young players and almost all of the future draft capital that they were permitted to trade for a team full of guys in their prime and the team would still not be favored to reach the ECF would you be content with that or would you have higher expectations?

At the same time that was occurring the team the Knicks beat in the 1st Round in 2023 made a coaching change a year later and leaped to the top of the league. You wouldn't even entertain the idea of a coaching change?

[Gravy]

Because the only team with 2 All-Stars would be a play-in team without Thibs specifically. Derp

Brunson was an all star for the first time under Thibs and Towns is an allstar starter for the first time under Thibs. Great job by coach!

OG could be an all star too if he was not exhausted covering Town's bad defense all season.

Any coach would be "coaching" them to All Stars this season.

Thibs is far removed from his defense years in Chicago, and he's never known as an offensive coach. So what is he? A legs (for starters) and confidence (for bench/ rookies) destroyer? A sidelines yeller?

He coached them to become All Stars... let's not joke ourselves.

Thibs defenders like you are too afraid to take risks needed (Lakers replacing Westhead with no experience Pat Riley, Bulls replacing Doug Collins with no experience Phil Jackson, Warriors replacing Mark Jackson with no experience Steve Kerr) to win a championship. You're just too afraid we'll miss the playoffs, you'd rather see the team make the playoffs just for the sake of making the playoffs, and be a 1st/ 2nd rd exit.

I accidentally And1'd your post

You and1 because deep down you believe me

This front office has been great so if they decide to replace the coach I would trust them.

If any coach would get Brunson and KAT to be starting allstars then why were most fans lukewarm when when we signed Brunson or hated the KAT trade?

[GettinitDone]

Brunson was an all star for the first time under Thibs and Towns is an allstar starter for the first time under Thibs. Great job by coach!

OG could be an all star too if he was not exhausted covering Town's bad defense all season.

Any coach would be "coaching" them to All Stars this season.

Thibs is far removed from his defense years in Chicago, and he's never known as an offensive coach. So what is he? A legs (for starters) and confidence (for bench/ rookies) destroyer? A sidelines yeller?

He coached them to become All Stars... let's not joke ourselves.

Thibs defenders like you are too afraid to take risks needed (Lakers replacing Westhead with no experience Pat Riley, Bulls replacing Doug Collins with no experience Phil Jackson, Warriors replacing Mark Jackson with no experience Steve Kerr) to win a championship. You're just too afraid we'll miss the playoffs, you'd rather see the team make the playoffs just for the sake of making the playoffs, and be a 1st/ 2nd rd exit.

I accidentally And1'd your post

You and1 because deep down you believe me

This front office has been great so if they decide to replace the coach I would trust them.

If any coach would get Brunson and KAT to be starting allstars then why were most fans lukewarm when when we signed Brunson or hated the KAT trade?

Since you said this it's a fair assessment I and1d your post for that alone.

But defending Thibs at any costs because one is comparing him to Fiz, Fisher, Hornacek when they didn't have Leon making moves is lunacy.

Anyone getting JB from Mavs would get an All Star, noone knew it coming.

KAT he's playing with all star JB/ fringe all stars Mikal, Josh, OG, KAT's said it himself this is the best team he's played for. Also, star players in their prime traded to their hometown/ childhood fave team tend to play inspired basketball/ have the best season of their careers, regardless of coaches.