PG: Passing The Bucks

[Guano]

Talent gap? Na, this team has top talent… Dag n Mazzulla just run circles around Thibs… playing chess while he’s playing checkers.

You know they have 6× all-star, 3× All-NBA First Team, MVP Jason Tatum. Jalen Brunson is just as good?lol Overrating our players like this is delusional

Tatum is a better player than Brunson and Mazzula is a better coach than Thibs.

Which gap makes the bigger difference is debatable. I do generally lean towards the talent gap.

smfh - sometimes it's better to be wrong than right and this is definitely a case Chanel

Be better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MrDollarBills]

While Mazzula may be better how do we really know when this is the only team he's ever coached? He was given a 50 win team with a 24year old mvp. This could be like Nurse where he was given a ecf team and Kawhi and people thought he was elite when every scheme he came up with would work when you have elite players.

Mazzula is a pragmatist. His decision-making is analytically and statistically driven rather than ideological, and he implements his thinking in a strong way. He's also thoughtful and open-minded, and seeks insight from other fields to inform his coaching. We shall see how his coaching career pans out, but he has succeeded in taking the Celtics to the next level.

Any coach needs elite talent to succeed. But I don't think it's accurate to say coaching doesn't make a difference.

Some middling coaches have won championships off the back of elite basketball talent. I don't think Frank Vogel or Mike Budenholzer were anything special, for instance. Some elite coaches (at least for their time) never won a championship. Context matters for coaches as much as it does for players. But we can still assess these coaches based on how their teams play relative to their talent level.

I don't think it's reasonable to say that Thibs is a "bad" coach. Some people here pretend he is and repeat it ad nauseam but frankly people think and say a lot of things - you're not going to change the mind of someone who needs a scapegoat to remain hopeful about the future.

But it's fair to point out that Thibs has core philosophical tenets that he struggles to deviate from. He's not the most agile or adaptable coach. He's not as pragmatic as Mazzula and a few other coaches are showing to be. When he's given a roster that fits his philosophy, like last year's Knicks, he can extract the most of it and do a masterful job. When he inherits a roster that doesn't, like this year's Knicks, he does appear to hold the team back a bit.

Thibs sucks is just the bottom line hyperbole. Most of us that don't like him realize he can raise the floor of a team and be a culture setting type coach. We just question his ability to win it all. The reasons have been discussed to death but, not everyone thinks he's as bad as the hyperbole gets. At least I would hope not.

Tom is not a "bad" coach. This team has made the playoffs for what, three straight seasons?

But for this team, this roster, Tom is not the coach for the moment. His philosophy is outdated and it makes the team vulnerable

You can't waste time when a championship window is open. Leon needs to pivot to someone with modern sensibilities

[Chanel Bomber]

the celtics offense relies on just taking and making a ton of 3s. and they can do that often. outside of that they're criticized a lot for guys going one on one and taking bad shots. they're not doing anything special.

They are tho. It’s easy to say they just jack up 3’s and iso with Tatum n Brown…. They do those things, but we’re talking a lot of possessions every single game. Mazzulla absolutely has these guys doing things out there as a team, that coaches like Thibs don’t have an answer for.

I even posted a series of gifs breaking down one simple play they hit us with that Thibs had no idea how to answer. The one with White (guarded by Brunson) hitting KAT with a screen to free up his man, who then screened for Tatum numerous times who then killed us with his scoring or playmaking after our defense broke down from those actions. Every time without fail… it was pathetic.

because kat and brunson can't play defense. they're weak links. so they target them. that's a roster flaw not a coaching one.

This is fundamentally true.

I do think the idea behind putting "Wingstop" together was to have two long wings who could help and recover at an elite level and mitigate the defensive frailty in the paint and at the point of attack.

I don't think Mikal and OG have lived up to expectations on defense this year. Neither has been bad of course, but they haven't been elite either, which has left the defense exposed.

Thibs's schematic stubbornness also hasn't helped mitigate the problem.

You're right that the core issue is that we have two bad defenders at key positions in our starting lineup. But if our wings were playing elite defense, and Thibs were a bit more pragmatic with his coverages, we could mitigate this problem and be in the 8-10 range on defense in the NBA (we currently rank 13th in defensive rating).

[spree8]

They are tho. It’s easy to say they just jack up 3’s and iso with Tatum n Brown…. They do those things, but we’re talking a lot of possessions every single game. Mazzulla absolutely has these guys doing things out there as a team, that coaches like Thibs don’t have an answer for.

I even posted a series of gifs breaking down one simple play they hit us with that Thibs had no idea how to answer. The one with White (guarded by Brunson) hitting KAT with a screen to free up his man, who then screened for Tatum numerous times who then killed us with his scoring or playmaking after our defense broke down from those actions. Every time without fail… it was pathetic.

because kat and brunson can't play defense. they're weak links. so they target them. that's a roster flaw not a coaching one.

This is fundamentally true.

I do think the idea behind putting "Wingstop" together was to have two long wings who could help and recover at an elite level and mitigate the defensive frailty in the paint and at the point of attack.

I don't think Mikal and OG have lived up to expectations on defense this year. Neither has been bad of course, but they haven't been elite either, which has left the defense exposed.

Thibs's schematic stubbornness also hasn't helped mitigate the problem.

You're right that the core issue is that we have two bad defenders at key positions in our starting lineup. But if our wings were playing elite defense, and Thibs were a bit more pragmatic with his coverages, we could mitigate this problem and be in the 8-10 range on defense in the NBA (we currently rank 13th in defensive rating).

And where would we rank defensively if we had Deuce starting at the POA (Hart 6th man) instead of Mikal and didn’t put KAT in drop coverage?

[Chanel Bomber]

because kat and brunson can't play defense. they're weak links. so they target them. that's a roster flaw not a coaching one.

This is fundamentally true.

I do think the idea behind putting "Wingstop" together was to have two long wings who could help and recover at an elite level and mitigate the defensive frailty in the paint and at the point of attack.

I don't think Mikal and OG have lived up to expectations on defense this year. Neither has been bad of course, but they haven't been elite either, which has left the defense exposed.

Thibs's schematic stubbornness also hasn't helped mitigate the problem.

You're right that the core issue is that we have two bad defenders at key positions in our starting lineup. But if our wings were playing elite defense, and Thibs were a bit more pragmatic with his coverages, we could mitigate this problem and be in the 8-10 range on defense in the NBA (we currently rank 13th in defensive rating).

And where would we rank defensively if we had Deuce starting at the POA (Hart 6th man) instead of Mikal and didn’t put KAT in drop coverage?

I don't know bruv

[god shammgod]

They are tho. It’s easy to say they just jack up 3’s and iso with Tatum n Brown…. They do those things, but we’re talking a lot of possessions every single game. Mazzulla absolutely has these guys doing things out there as a team, that coaches like Thibs don’t have an answer for.

I even posted a series of gifs breaking down one simple play they hit us with that Thibs had no idea how to answer. The one with White (guarded by Brunson) hitting KAT with a screen to free up his man, who then screened for Tatum numerous times who then killed us with his scoring or playmaking after our defense broke down from those actions. Every time without fail… it was pathetic.

because kat and brunson can't play defense. they're weak links. so they target them. that's a roster flaw not a coaching one.

The coaching issue is that we don't try anything outside the box, the Heat made it to the finals largely playing zone because that was the best way to hide their poor defenders who provided shooting. With the Celtics, we're going to come out with KAT on KP, no changes, we're not going to play any zone, we're not going to put KAT on Jrue and try to force the Celtics to post up KP more. If we play the Celtics and lose because Jrue and Jaylen went nuts from three, so be it, but we're going to lose the same way we have the last 2 seasons. A barrage of threes from everyone because they know exactly how we're going to defend them.

we certainly won't play zone because that won't work against this version of the celtics.

other than that i have no idea what thibs will do. he does switch the matchups at times. the last time we played miami he took kat off bam and had og guarding him halfway into the game. it's possible he does put kat on jrue. but the celtics will just try to screen their way into getting the matchups they want anyway. that's the problem with bad defenders.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

because kat and brunson can't play defense. they're weak links. so they target them. that's a roster flaw not a coaching one.

The coaching issue is that we don't try anything outside the box, the Heat made it to the finals largely playing zone because that was the best way to hide their poor defenders who provided shooting. With the Celtics, we're going to come out with KAT on KP, no changes, we're not going to play any zone, we're not going to put KAT on Jrue and try to force the Celtics to post up KP more. If we play the Celtics and lose because Jrue and Jaylen went nuts from three, so be it, but we're going to lose the same way we have the last 2 seasons. A barrage of threes from everyone because they know exactly how we're going to defend them.

we certainly won't play zone because that won't work against this version of the celtics.

other than that i have no idea what thibs will do. he does switch the matchups at times. the last time we played miami he took kat off bam and had og guarding him halfway into the game. it's possible he does put kat on jrue. but the celtics will just try to screen their way into getting the matchups they want anyway. that's the problem with bad defenders.

You know I was saying Mitch on KP last year was stupid, because they kept exploiting the drop with him all the same. We have never taken our center off KP, do I think we'll do it in the playoffs? Probably not. Even if they target bad defenders, it at least gives them a different look to try something else. We will never play zone, so it's impossible to tell if it'll work or not. With the Celtics they actually should try two bigs, just so that they counter with their two bigs.



The point is, so far we have not tried anything different against the Celtics since they got KP. It's been the same basic formula for 2 years, we beat them once in an April game last season, outside of that it's been belt to ass. And no matter how bad you think this roster is, we're the worst at defending the Celtics in the entire league, that has to fall on coaching if the Wiz & Raps are more competitive against them

[TheGreenArrow]

Read on Twitter

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Thibs isn’t going anywhere unless we completely **** the bed in the playoffs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It’s not likely but still possible especially if we face the Cavs Celtics or even the pistons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[spree8]

because kat and brunson can't play defense. they're weak links. so they target them. that's a roster flaw not a coaching one.

The coaching issue is that we don't try anything outside the box, the Heat made it to the finals largely playing zone because that was the best way to hide their poor defenders who provided shooting. With the Celtics, we're going to come out with KAT on KP, no changes, we're not going to play any zone, we're not going to put KAT on Jrue and try to force the Celtics to post up KP more. If we play the Celtics and lose because Jrue and Jaylen went nuts from three, so be it, but we're going to lose the same way we have the last 2 seasons. A barrage of threes from everyone because they know exactly how we're going to defend them.

we certainly won't play zone because that won't work against this version of the celtics.

other than that i have no idea what thibs will do. he does switch the matchups at times. the last time we played miami he took kat off bam and had og guarding him halfway into the game. it's possible he does put kat on jrue. but the celtics will just try to screen their way into getting the matchups they want anyway. that's the problem with bad defenders.

Lemme ask you this… you think KAT n Brunson are bad enough man defenders to get beat every time 1 on 1? We’ve seen them hold their own.

Would you say it’s better to have the best defenders fight thru screens and be a step slow as a result (especially against the 3 ball) and have other guys forced to rotate to help out leaving holes in the defense, or to have the weaker defender just pick up the ball handler on the switch and live with the results?

I don’t know how to quantify that, but if we had to try to boil that down to a percentage of defensive success, I’d bet it’s likely better to just switch more often than not.

Depending on the situation, matchup, team, etc, sure other coverages are always on the table, but the majority of the time, I think this team would be better off switching n living with those results.

Kyrie n Luka made it to the finals and Jokic and Murray won a title and they’re not defensive stoppers by any stretch. No reason Brunson Burner n Big Bodega can’t get us that far. It’s up to the coach to help figure out how

[Jalen Bluntson]

The coaching issue is that we don't try anything outside the box, the Heat made it to the finals largely playing zone because that was the best way to hide their poor defenders who provided shooting. With the Celtics, we're going to come out with KAT on KP, no changes, we're not going to play any zone, we're not going to put KAT on Jrue and try to force the Celtics to post up KP more. If we play the Celtics and lose because Jrue and Jaylen went nuts from three, so be it, but we're going to lose the same way we have the last 2 seasons. A barrage of threes from everyone because they know exactly how we're going to defend them.

we certainly won't play zone because that won't work against this version of the celtics.

other than that i have no idea what thibs will do. he does switch the matchups at times. the last time we played miami he took kat off bam and had og guarding him halfway into the game. it's possible he does put kat on jrue. but the celtics will just try to screen their way into getting the matchups they want anyway. that's the problem with bad defenders.

Lemme ask you this… you think KAT n Brunson are bad enough man defenders to get beat every time 1 on 1? We’ve seen them hold their own.

Would you say it’s better to have the best defenders fight thru screens and be a step slow as a result and have other guys forced to rotate to help out leaving holes in the defense, or to have the weaker defender just pick up the ball handler on the switch and live with the results?

I don’t know how to quantify that, but if we had to try to boil that down to a percentage of defensive success, I’d bet it’s likely better to just switch more often than not.

Depending on the situation, matchup, team, etc, sure other coverages are always on the table, but the majority of the time, I think this team would be better off switching n living with those results.

Kyrie n Luka made it to the finals and Jokic and Murray won a title and they’re not defensive stoppers by any stretch. No reason Brunson Burner n Big Bodega can’t get us that far. It’s up to the coach to help figure out how

I agree that they both leave a bit to be desired on defense. I don't agree that there is no way to mask it. As you point out, teams have done it. A lot of our games aren't them getting beat on defense so we lose. The 3pt shot and tired legs kill us more than anything. Then the stagnant offense or poor shooting games happen too. Short rotations and weak bench production amplify those losses. It's a bigger picture to me that Thibs has ALWAYS struggled against good teams and never relies on his bench/deep rotations. The numbers don't lie.

We just watched CLE change coaches and go from worse than us to better than everyone record wise with the same core. Will that same thing happen if we decided to do that? Who knows? Careful what you wish for I suppose. I'm just out of patience at this point. Which is my problem for sure. I keep trying and he keeps doing things to annoy me. I still hope the team can get it together no matter who coaches. We do need to upgrade the bench either way. We also need to be healthy. Two things that just don't mesh well with Thibs IMO.

[HarthorneWingo]

But the offense looked pretty good up until around the all star break. I mean that month where the ball moved, Brunson didn't dominate it TOO much and KAT shot the most 3s.

Then the league adjusted, put centers on Hart, and Thibs got completely lost and unable to readjust.

That hasn't changed. Brunson's 25ppg are out of the offense, so Mikal and OG are getting them.

Maybe Thibs will figure it out next year. Maybe another coach will figure it out.

The Knicks deciding to trade all their assets but only have one guy on the team that is a plus creator doesn't help.

All one has to do is set up and a screen to cause the switch to create the matchup that you want. Teams seem to do it to us all the time.

We don't seem to do much with any purpose on offense. We don't seem to adjust much on either side of the ball really. ISO freelance is the majority of our game plan.

Kolek plays with a different gear. It's fun watching him run the offense IMO because he's not going to play ISO ball. No. He's not better than Brunson. He's not the savior. Just looks like he could develop nicely and have a role in the NBA. Whether it's with us or not remains to be seen.

It is fun watching the ball move much better. I hope it opens everyone’s eyes as to how best to use our talent so that the total is more than the sum of our parts, Bluntstoned San.

[god shammgod]

https://youtu.be/HgvyvNLlrVM?t=123

listen to this guy. they just pick on brunson and kat. they search for them and they exploit them. accept it or not. it is what it is.

[Gravy]

To remind everyone Minny needed to get Gobert next to KAT to make it to the wcf. Kat's defense at the 5 will get destroyed in the playoffs, this is not a Thibs is outdated problem.

[Enzo954]

Read on Twitter

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Thibs isn’t going anywhere unless we completely **** the bed in the playoffs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It’s not likely but still possible especially if we face the Cavs Celtics or even the pistons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMO the only way Thibs helped Jalen become an all-star is by giving him the green light to run down the clock on most possessions and either drive to the hole or take the shot himself. Everything else that went into Jalen becoming an all-star is his own talent and work ethic. That's not a knock on Brunson, but a dig at Thibs and the way he rides his star players talent over actually running plays to get other teammates involved. His coaching has very little with what makes Jalen a great player.

[Jalen Bluntson]

It's not rocket science that we aren't on Bostons level. No one here thinks we are. Why is this an excuse for the things we see Thibs do? It's really not. It's just a strawman argument that deflects from the legitimate issues people have with him. Again, how did CLE look the last few years? Were they even in the discussion as the best team in the East? No. They were just a good team like us. Does this mean a coaching change will fix everything? Nope. That still doesn't excuse Thibs. Some people want to see change. Some people want to act like everything is fine and we just suck because the roster. We all to want a title though before we die. We all agree the bench needs some upgrades.

Let's see what Thibs and the team does the rest of the season and the playoffs. Then we can have a better understanding of where we are. Then we have the summer to languish through. How do we fix the bench. What unavailable stars are we unable to get because Mikal/KAT. You know. Let things play out and go from there. Thibs probably isn't going anywhere so, the board will probably be mass debating about this all summer into next season. See Randle/RJ/Frank/Obi/Donovan Mitchell etc and so on.

[Gravy]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=W09F6FrMDfp5_y1gKYgF1g

Thibs isn’t going anywhere unless we completely **** the bed in the playoffs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It’s not likely but still possible especially if we face the Cavs Celtics or even the pistons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Realgm: Thibs didnt do anything these players were already great

Jalen: Thibs helped me become an allstar

Realgm: NO HE DID NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jalen Bluntson]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=W09F6FrMDfp5_y1gKYgF1g

Thibs isn’t going anywhere unless we completely **** the bed in the playoffs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It’s not likely but still possible especially if we face the Cavs Celtics or even the pistons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMO the only way Thibs helped Jalen become an all-star is by giving him the green light to run down the clock on most possessions and either drive to the hole or take the shot himself. Everything else that went into Jalen becoming an all-star is his own talent and work ethic. That's not a knock on Brunson, but a dig at Thibs and the way he rides his star players talent over actually running plays to get other teammates involved. His coaching has very little with what makes Jalen a great player.

While I agree, Jalen says otherwise. So, his loyalty runs deep here. It doesn't bode well for those who want Thibs gone. I actually like that there is loyalty but, how much of it is being family? I would just love for Thibs to see his flaws and adjust. I don't see that happening ever. So I want him gone. Do we really need 9 starters for him to play his bench more than 20-30 minutes less than the rest of the league?

[Iron Mantis]

Boston and the Cavaliers both have losses to clearly less talented teams like the Hawks, Pacers, Sixers, Raptors, Pistons, Kings, Rockets, Grizzlies, Magic.....

Yet, all of these less talented teams that have beaten the Cavs and/or Celtics the Knicks have beaten...and most, quite handily.

But whenever the Knicks play the Celtics or the Cavaliers, the Knicks can't even put up a fight like those less talented teams...much less win like they have done.... instead, the Knicks look woefully unprepared on both offense and the defensive end and get blown out by 30...every time......why?

Nothing to do with coaching......

[TheGreenArrow]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=W09F6FrMDfp5_y1gKYgF1g

Thibs isn’t going anywhere unless we completely **** the bed in the playoffs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It’s not likely but still possible especially if we face the Cavs Celtics or even the pistons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Realgm: Thibs didnt do anything these players were already great

Jalen: Thibs helped me become an allstar

Realgm: NO HE DID NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok I’m just going to be honest here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is this roster good enough to win a championship???!!!!!!!!!!!!

That’s Tbt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don’t think so but there’s a chance this can be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But what I and everybody else knows for a fact is that thibs is not and will never be a championship head coach!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And as long as he’s the hc you can put in stone that the New York Knicks will never win a championship!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And that’s just the cold hard truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[spree8]

https://youtu.be/HgvyvNLlrVM?t=123

listen to this guy. they just pick on brunson and kat. they search for them and they exploit them. accept it or not. it is what it is.

Why you always dodging specific questions! lol. This guy didn’t go in depth with it, and I feel a lot of people don’t. It’s just superficial thinking. He also said “Boston sees NY and snaps back to last years playoffs and gets surgical”…. Not to try to discredit him, but wtf? lol

He said they target KAT and Brunson. Ok, but why? Is it because those are our two biggest offensive weapons and they want to wear them out on the defensive end? I’d say that definitely is a part of the strategy, cuz I’d do the same. Let’s not act like the only players hunted are poor defenders because I’ve had that thought plenty while watching other games… like why the fuq is player x hunting a superstar 2-way player at times? Because the defense is hiding them on a weak offensive player to conserve energy on the offensive end? Maybe wanna get them in foul trouble?

Is another part of that because they don’t have high IQ on the defensive end? Of course. I’ve already said that. But I also said the coach can help them by putting them in positions to succeed… like switching every time they try one of those aforementioned actions.

They know that Thibs is just gunna keep running the same things and letting his guys die out there with no adjustments. Run those actions and make the two best offensive players work and get frustrated while taking the best defenders out the play because it works against Thibs. They also know that KAT in drop is a weakness and attack that… it’s more about attacking his role and positioning.

Like I’ve said before, a lot of times they’re hunted they’re put thru the ringer and caught in a compromising situation with the offensive player having the upper hand. I’ve posted footage of this specifically with KAT recovering from fighting thru screens only to finally get into position a couple steps too late with Tatum blowing right by him. It literally doesn’t take much time at all to get the upper hand on a defender in a multitude of ways… whether it’s off the bounce or a pull up, you just need to be a tiny bit ahead of them. And with our defense, it’s easy to throw us off… the only thing that keeps us remotely close against lesser teams is the hustle Thibs gets out of the players… against elite teams tho, they’ll just use that against you. Again… chess > checkers