Knicks Mavs PG: The friends along the way

[Phish Tank]

Hi,
I have not watched many Knicks games this season (also watch only those Mavs games where they win). But yesterday before the game I looked at Knicks roster and there are just 3 players with whom KP played in NY - Frank, Knox and Rose. Why Frank and Knox are not playing? If you do not play them why not trade?
And actually, Knicks did not play that bad, they held Mavericks to less than 100 points, which has happened this season just 7 times before this game and in 5 of those either KP or Luka was not playing. So Knicks defended very well in my opinion. I quite liked your rookies, we do see ours playing very rarely, because Carlisle does not trust rookies (if they are not Luka). Only when half of starters were out by covid, then rooks got some playing time

1) Frank's essentially a 0 on offense most of the time and is like a Batum on that end of the floor. Knox is useless if he can't hit his threes.

2) Can't trade players if their market value is effectively 0.

[Jstock12]

Hi,
I have not watched many Knicks games this season (also watch only those Mavs games where they win). But yesterday before the game I looked at Knicks roster and there are just 3 players with whom KP played in NY - Frank, Knox and Rose. Why Frank and Knox are not playing? If you do not play them why not trade?
And actually, Knicks did not play that bad, they held Mavericks to less than 100 points, which has happened this season just 7 times before this game and in 5 of those either KP or Luka was not playing. So Knicks defended very well in my opinion. I quite liked your rookies, we do see ours playing very rarely, because Carlisle does not trust rookies (if they are not Luka). Only when half of starters were out by covid, then rooks got some playing time

1) Frank's essentially a 0 on offense most of the time and is like a Batum on that end of the floor. Knox is useless if he can't hit his threes.

2) Can't trade players if their market value is effectively 0.

Don't diss Batum. He was a legit offensive player in his prime.

[JXL]

Looking at the game replay again it seems the minutes played is catching up to Randle and RJ a bit. Their usual shots are flat and the shots they do make they are laboring.

Obi has been playing better as of late, so I believe Thibs has to cut back the minutes of those two to give them more rest during the 2nd quarter and about 5 minutes from the 3rd to about 7 minutes in the 4th. By the playoffs, they're gonna be real fatigued.

Bit this is the same coach that played Derrick Rose in garbage time in the 4th quarter in a playoff game, so what do I know?

[Richard4444]

Hi,
I have not watched many Knicks games this season (also watch only those Mavs games where they win). But yesterday before the game I looked at Knicks roster and there are just 3 players with whom KP played in NY - Frank, Knox and Rose. Why Frank and Knox are not playing? If you do not play them why not trade?
And actually, Knicks did not play that bad, they held Mavericks to less than 100 points, which has happened this season just 7 times before this game and in 5 of those either KP or Luka was not playing. So Knicks defended very well in my opinion. I quite liked your rookies, we do see ours playing very rarely, because Carlisle does not trust rookies (if they are not Luka). Only when half of starters were out by covid, then rooks got some playing time

1) Frank's essentially a 0 on offense most of the time and is like a Batum on that end of the floor. Knox is useless if he can't hit his threes.

2) Can't trade players if their market value is effectively 0.

The Knick's offense is already bad without Frank. He can make the offense even worse. He is too shy, reluctant to shoot, use to make silly passes, hate to drive to the basket. And our defense is already good.

Knox is too slow to play SF. He got a good run as PF at the beginning of the season. But we already have 2 players in this position Randle and Obi.

[2010]

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[Phish Tank]

Hi,
I have not watched many Knicks games this season (also watch only those Mavs games where they win). But yesterday before the game I looked at Knicks roster and there are just 3 players with whom KP played in NY - Frank, Knox and Rose. Why Frank and Knox are not playing? If you do not play them why not trade?
And actually, Knicks did not play that bad, they held Mavericks to less than 100 points, which has happened this season just 7 times before this game and in 5 of those either KP or Luka was not playing. So Knicks defended very well in my opinion. I quite liked your rookies, we do see ours playing very rarely, because Carlisle does not trust rookies (if they are not Luka). Only when half of starters were out by covid, then rooks got some playing time

1) Frank's essentially a 0 on offense most of the time and is like a Batum on that end of the floor. Knox is useless if he can't hit his threes.

2) Can't trade players if their market value is effectively 0.

Don't diss Batum. He was a legit offensive player in his prime.

I'm talking about post-Portland and post-contract Batum.... where Batum was more willing to pass the ball around like Frank and disappear on offense.

[3toheadmelo]

Off topic but hopefully Dmx pulls through. This sucks.

[Rasho Brezec]

There's like 2 games difference between 4th and 9th spot. There will be no tanking.

[DaGawd]

KD possibly coming back to play the Knicks.. lol

[knickstape4ever]

It’s too late. Look at some of the teams behind the Knicks... this play in thing is absolutely stupid I must add.. the NBA is a league where more than half the teams already made the playoffs as it was.. the play in is unnecessary

it's too late to crack into the top 7, but not too late to get into the 8-11 range

rn, 538 projects the team to finish w/ the 9th worst record (w/ only 1 game separating them from 14). the difference between lottery odds for 9 and 14 is pretty significant: 20.2% (top 4) vs. 2.4%

20.2% isn't a great chance, but it's still a chance at a potential franchise-changing talent. 2.4% is no chance at all

We are almost a lock to get into the play-in tournament. The Front Office will not try to tank. We only drop from the East Top 10 if at least 2 teams from Chicago, Toronto, and Wizards surpass us at the standings. And they are awful right now.

We will not sacrifice the evolution of the team and the morale of the roster for 18% odds improvement.

If we do nothing, we will probably lose the play-in and finish in 10-12th range anyway

I understand the situation we're in.....I just don't agree w/ it b/c it keeps as a treadmill team, barring lottery luck/drafting a stud late (both unlikely)

[Richard4444]

The Knicks still need a #1 option. Randle is a decent 2nd option. RJ might be a third or 4th option. I don’t know how we’re gonna get that guy

It's a good question.

Probably the most important one.

I see 5 scenarios to be honest:

1. Knicks make the playoffs, Clippers are a mess, and Kawhi signs this summer
2. Zion signs as a free agent in 2025 or 2026 via player option
3. Knicks miss the playoffs, finally get some lottery luck and draft Cade or Suggs (or whomever)
4. Knicks package their assets and trade for Lavine, and he reaches yet another level
5. Knicks trade Randle to the Warriors or Timberwolves for a top 4 pick.

I don't know if there's any other avenue tbh.

Knicks fans have to stop romanticizing about the draft. Players like Doncic and Zion that can impact the game from day one are very rare. We can not choose to lose all every year to try to grab one of them. Besides, we have to rely on ping pong balls and the tanking competition uses to be great.

The majority of the future stars plays like RJ and Randle at their beginning of the career and we need patience with them. They will not change the franchise overnight and if we grab them we would create threads asking if they are as busts.

The majority of tanking teams fail. The process takes years and they keep losing and losing. And the process is excruciating to the fans. And bad for business (attendance, merchandising).

No one will trade a top5 pick for a UFA 2022 Randle. Especially a small market team will not choose a player who they can't control after one year over one player who they have a 7/8-year control.

The knicks are in a really good spot right now. Their core is relatively cheap and we have a lot of picks. We can make smarts signs and trades to improve the team. We probably will not turn into contenders overnight. But if we stay competitive we will attract stars in the FA market or trade market. Every team is complaining that almost every star wants to play in New York and I am sure that is not because of the color of the shirt. If we stay respectable and competitive, we will attract our share of stars.

[DickGrayson]

There's like 2 games difference between 4th and 9th spot. There will be no tanking.

No one in the East is taking out Brooklyn and anyone who's 4-9 will lose to 76ers or Bucks if it's not the Nets.

The difference is massive. East has teams at play for the play in and playoffs, but Nets are in a tier of their own and 76ers and Bucks are in the next tier.


There will be no tanking, but there will be treadmilling.

Knicks defense isn't enough to get passed the 1st round. I much rather get a better draft pick than be an easy first round exist, even if it isn't a top 10 pick. Haliburton proves you can get a good player at 12-15.

[thebuzzardman]

The Knicks could have drafted 4 players. They could have consolidated their picks to move up in the draft. Of course they gave up an asset for Rose, who is second worst in inefficiency on team (after Elf) and the worst perimeter defender on the team. I would like to hear your rationale as to why it was a solid move.

we still can draft 4 players. (15, 21, 33, 57) we got another 2nd rounder back in that brazdeikis trade and we still can consolidate picks to move up in the draft. rose isn't great but it was a cheap acquisition

I don’t think it’s the end all be all, but it wasn’t a trade I liked. Leon has to say no to Thibs in that situation. Personally I believe Rose is subtraction by addition and it’s always a good thing to have as many picks as you can.

So, you were comfortable with the fact that while the Knicks were attempting to win games (if that was a good idea or not is a whole other argument) that there was exactly ONE player on the roster adept at creating for himself and others, without needing a pick or specific opponent. Ok, 1.5 if we count Burks.

Randle
Burks

And that was it.

Knicks desperately needed a guard or wing who could create, specifically a PG.

Jesus. Now we have fans mad over mid/late 2nd round picks being traded.

Meanwhile, the Knicks have about 10 of them over the next 5 years.

Let's be serious. The Knicks traded a headcase they weren't keeping and was 99.9% out of the rotation and a player who'll turn into the next Iggy for a decent backup at a position of need.

I'm more upset the Knicks didn't trade even more 2nd rounders for Fournier than the fact they traded one for DRose. And that's for Fournier as a 20 game rental.

[knickstape4ever]

The Knicks still need a #1 option. Randle is a decent 2nd option. RJ might be a third or 4th option. I don’t know how we’re gonna get that guy

It's a good question.

Probably the most important one.

I see 5 scenarios to be honest:

1. Knicks make the playoffs, Clippers are a mess, and Kawhi signs this summer
2. Zion signs as a free agent in 2025 or 2026 via player option
3. Knicks miss the playoffs, finally get some lottery luck and draft Cade or Suggs (or whomever)
4. Knicks package their assets and trade for Lavine, and he reaches yet another level
5. Knicks trade Randle to the Warriors or Timberwolves for a top 4 pick.

I don't know if there's any other avenue tbh.

Knicks fans have to stop romanticizing about the draft. Players like Doncic and Zion that can impact the game from day one are very rare. We can not choose to lose all every year to try to grab one of them. Besides, we have to rely on ping pong balls and the tanking competition uses to be great.

The majority of the future stars plays like RJ and Randle at their beginning of the career and we need patience with them. They will not change the franchise overnight and if we grab them we would create threads asking if they are as busts.

The majority of tanking teams fail. The process takes years and they keep losing and losing. And the process is excruciating to the fans. And bad for business (attendance, merchandising).

No one will trade a top5 pick for a UFA 2022 Randle. Especially a small market team will not choose a player who they can't control after one year over one player who they have a 7/8-year control.

The knicks are in a really good spot right now. Their core is relatively cheap and we have a lot of picks. We can make smarts signs and trades to improve the team. We probably will not turn into contenders overnight. But if we stay competitive we will attract stars in the FA market or trade market. Every team is complaining that almost every star wants to play in New York and I am sure that is not because of the color of the shirt. If we stay respectable and competitive, we will attract our share of stars.

the draft is pivotal, but you can't expect that we draft great players in the mid-late 1st, it's just very unlikely. the best players come from the top of the draft

other than the draft, the avenue of improvement are FA and trades: no top FA's are available and trades would probably put us in another Melo situation

the top of the draft produces great talent. I went back and looked at every draft since 2000, and in EVERY year since then there has an all-star taken w/ a top 5 pick

not to mention, the the 2 best players the Knicks have drafted in recent years: KP and RJ, both top 5 picks

also tanking being "bad for business" doesn't really apply for the Knicks. they've been the highest valued NBA franchise through all of the tough years

[thebuzzardman]

There's like 2 games difference between 4th and 9th spot. There will be no tanking.

Listen, I know the Knicks just played the Mavs so you are lingering in the forum, but give this advice on the Mavs board.

We still have some hope the Knicks will lose enough to get a better pick.

Lord knows they won't correctly utilize it, but it's something to root for now that all hope is gone for the season and frankly, the future probably isn't that bright for the draft or upcoming offseason, but hey, it's the Knicks.

[thebuzzardman]

Looks like Thibs and staff have been developing Obi up. Let's hope it continues.

Watch on YouTube

I love the bench reaction to the put back dunk. Best moment of the game.

Obi is developing into a nice modern stretch four with good athleticism. You can tell the offense is getting there and he’s finding his game. It really is the one on one defensive concepts he needs to improve on to stay in the game.

His biggest issue is being comfortable. When I watch him he seems unsure of himself and maybe self doubting. This may be the confidence boost he needed.

I see his biggest issues as being related to not being that good, which will definitely impact confidence.

He won't look good again for a while until he faces the defensive equivalents of NICOLÒ MELLI and LUKA DONIC again.

[DickGrayson]

Let's be REAL for once

Knicks only in the playoffs because:

Raptors
Heat
Pacers
Celtics

all have played under expectations.

East is still building themselves up after LeBron went West and it's so weak at 4-12 that people forget Hornets and Hawks are behind the top 3 in the East, these two teams haven't even had 3 seasons under their franchise players (Ball and Young), they haven't even come close to PEAKING and have played ahead of Eastern Conference Champs in the Heat and Raptors, the average Celtics and Pacers. Knicks too are young but with guys like Elf, Gibson occupying minutes just to be an 8th/9th seed is really wasteful.

This isn't the Knicks time as much hyped we built into the playoffs (I blame those Knick fans who showed up at the Garden making those videos hyping up regular season wins as playoff wins) which led to the whole Knicks are in the playoffs hype...but we really a play in team that will probably lose to Indiana, Miami, Toronto or Boston.


Knicks aren't who we think they are. Thibs is a good coach, Randle is playing like All NBA 3rd team. IQ is first team all rookie. Barrett improved. We got a lot of positives. I'm not doubting this. I just believe we are a young promising player and a key free agent away from being a top 3-5 team in the East. Competitive like Portland not exactly a title contender. That's just how I see the forecast for this team if they get realistic and stop hyping up the playoffs just to promote the brand and get people tuned in. When we really should be tuning into who will be the 15 to make the 2021-2022 roster?

[Nbabrothers]

Looking at the game replay again it seems the minutes played is catching up to Randle and RJ a bit. Their usual shots are flat and the shots they do make they are laboring.

Obi has been playing better as of late, so I believe Thibs has to cut back the minutes of those two to give them more rest during the 2nd quarter and about 5 minutes from the 3rd to about 7 minutes in the 4th. By the playoffs, they're gonna be real fatigued.

Bit this is the same coach that played Derrick Rose in garbage time in the 4th quarter in a playoff game, so what do I know?

Agreed with regards to the minutes catching up to Randle and RJ.
Obi needs to get more minutes to show his worthiness. It’s unfortunate that he plays the same position as Julius and that’s obviously why his minutes are capped, but if he is doing well like he was last night and Randle was not shooting well that would have been the perfect time to keep him in the rotation and prove himself some more.
He is a keeper snd the future of the Knicks. Mark my words. Also Burks could spell some time for RJ to get some rest.
I would play Randle 32 mpg and RJ the same while giving Obi 16 minutes (up from 11) and Burks keep him at 26 mpg but 16 of them coming at the sg position.

[Clyde_Style]

At this point, the only thing that really matters this season is improving the rookies, because we know our two main options are burning out and we won't see any quality point guard play in the remaining games.

IQ needs to be better coached, because his shot selection is getting worse.

And keep building Obi's confidence up after last night. He looked fluid for the very first time and not like a baby giraffe learning to walk. There's hope after all

[thebuzzardman]

Let's be REAL for once

Knicks only in the playoffs because:

Raptors
Heat
Pacers
Celtics

all have played under expectations.

East is still building themselves up after LeBron went West and it's so weak at 4-12 that people forget Hornets and Hawks are behind the top 3 in the East, these two teams haven't even had 3 seasons under their franchise players (Ball and Young), they haven't even come close to PEAKING and have played ahead of Eastern Conference Champs in the Heat and Raptors, the average Celtics and Pacers. Knicks too are young but with guys like Elf, Gibson occupying minutes just to be an 8th/9th seed is really wasteful.

This isn't the Knicks time as much hyped we built into the playoffs (I blame those Knick fans who showed up at the Garden making those videos hyping up regular season wins as playoff wins) which led to the whole Knicks are in the playoffs hype...but we really a play in team that will probably lose to Indiana, Miami, Toronto or Boston.


Knicks aren't who we think they are. Thibs is a good coach, Randle is playing like All NBA 3rd team. IQ is first team all rookie. Barrett improved. We got a lot of positives. I'm not doubting this. I just believe we are a young promising player and a key free agent away from being a top 3-5 team in the East. Competitive like Portland not exactly a title contender. That's just how I see the forecast for this team if they get realistic and stop hyping up the playoffs just to promote the brand and get people tuned in. When we really should be tuning into who will be the 15 to make the 2021-2022 roster?

I'd agree with this take.

Let's imagine somewhat realistic and/or likely steps this team MIGHT take in the offseason.
By the way, I'm suggesting iterative moves, since I can't realistically predict what very good player might b*tch his way off his team onto the Knicks, like LaVine, which seems unlikely and a next years deadline thing, and I'm just not seeing Beal for stuff and all the Knicks picks.

So, Knicks will have about 55 million in cap space and the following players under contract:

Randle
Barrett
Mitch
IQ
Knox
Toppin

Ordered in ability.

Let's pretend they keep their 3 picks of...12, 22 and...lets assume that 32 via Detroit is used to move up a few spots from Dallas' pick.

Here's 3 players the Knicks might be able to sign

RFA
Lonzo Ball
Trent Jr (unlikely since Raptors probably lock him/match)

UFA
Norman Powell

I figure all of them are in the 22 million per range, with Trent Jr possibly being a little lower and Powell, looking to cash in, a little higher

I don't think the Knicks add both Lonzo and one of Trent Jr/Powell since they seem committed to trading for a max cat or going big game hunting in the 2022 FA class.

Knicks add one of those players, don't draft like complete idiots at 12 and 20 and bring back two out of DRose/Burks/Bullocks and either Noel or some improvement at 1 year of backup C

Playoff team?
I'd say yes.
Still a first round exit, just not swept.

But a better team with room for growth/another big player.