The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ)

[robillionaire]

I’m not in the doubting Julius business anymore, at the beginning of the season all of you would have traded Randle for a bag of peanuts in favor of Obi and would have been crying about he developed into a superstar elsewhere...

I’m down to ride with Julius as a number 2 on a contender, because he will improve.

I'd trade for a bag of peanuts now, he had one of the worst playoff performances in the last 20 years, and that's not even hyperbole. That wasn't just playoff jitters, that was an exposal like what happened to Siakam, except his performance was even worse than Pascals.


You don't double down on a guy after he shoots .298% from the field with 4.6 topg. If he looked like that against the Hawks, what exactly would he have looked like against the Bucks, Sixers or Heat over the course of a series? Teams that can scheme him and have individual defenders to go at him as well.

Trading an all nba player for a bag of peanuts, is such a Knick fan thing to do, knee jerk reactions over emotion, I think our front office is better than this

They are, he isn’t going anywhere any time soon and certainly isn’t getting traded for draft picks. It would take a deal for a superstar for them to move him

[Oscirus]

what exactly would he have looked like against the Bucks, Sixers or Heat over the course of a series? Teams that can scheme him and have individual defenders to go at him as well.

Go look at our record against Nets, Heat, Sixers and the non-Thannasis Run Bucks.

0-3 vs. sixers
0-2 vs. nuggets
0-3 vs. heat
0-3 vs. nets

Thibs banked fake wins against trash teams who were either sitting players out for covid or tanking. We banked like 10-15 compplete **** wins. This team is garbage in a normal season with normal rosters. We'd be lucky to scratch the 8th seed.

But yeah let's max Randle for going 3-0 vs. the Wizards and Lloyd Pierce.

That's why I ask, would you be surprised if we were under .500 next season. My answer is, no, I wouldn't. Now, maybe we make some moves this off season. But as things stand now, meh.

We're def making moves in the offseason no way the knicks get away with that half assed roster construction two seasons in a row.

[Nightowl26]

I mentioned this in a previous posting. Randle had a career year, he's not a #1 on a contending/championship team. To me, I'd trade him while his valve is at a all time high. Let's get some good young players and/or picks for him.

[Meat]

We need to move on from Randle, all that max talk died down quick.

agreed. this has always been a problem with the knicks. they've never be been pragmatic enough to make the savviest basketball decisions they could make. This **** goes all the way back to not acquiring Kareem and Julius Irving. we didn't cut bait with Melo when we needed to in order to develop KP sooner and see what we had, and then we traded KP when his value was below peak (though I will admit I was against trading him at all. I won't lie about that.)

Yes Julius is still young, but Julius is about to get paid. Paying a Robin franchise cornerstone money when you don't even have a Batman on the roster, is a disaster waiting to happen especially when you have another Robin (RJ) on a rookie scale contract.

If we had someone like Jerry West he would have traded him at the deadline, regardless of what the numbers or record was, because he would understand that style isn't conducive to building a winner and paying him would be a huge mistake.


I don't like all the connections our coaching staff / front office has to him, so we'll probably lock him up and be a middle of the road team until the contract runs out.

Jerry west also traded a farm for Paul George so… maybe he woulda kept him

[Davis18]

I am gonna trust FO to provide Thibs better play maker this off season. Let's see how Randle performs off the ball. Randle is the one we are playing with house money.

[TwitterFingers]

I am more worried about RJ and my concerns with him go back since he was in Duke. His upside seems to be a bit limited. Good player no doubt, but I don’t really see that all star talent that others see in him. More of a 3 and D guy with inconsistent defense.

My concerns with Randle have to do more from a mental standpoint that talent wise. He’s had phenomenal games during the season where he’s looked like Kawhi lite and was just unguardable. I don’t know if the crowd got to him in the playoffs, first playoffs jitters, or the Hawks just did a really good job of shutting him down but I still believe in his capabilities as a player.

Now with all of that said, both RJ and Randle are still good complimentary pieces to keep. But we need a true #1 option. We won’t reach anywhere until we get one.

How is RJ a 3 & D guy? 42% of his shots are at the rim. Only 27% of his shot attempts are 3’s

[3toheadmelo]

I am more worried about RJ and my concerns with him go back since he was in Duke. His upside seems to be a bit limited. Good player no doubt, but I don’t really see that all star talent that others see in him. More of a 3 and D guy with inconsistent defense.

My concerns with Randle have to do more from a mental standpoint that talent wise. He’s had phenomenal games during the season where he’s looked like Kawhi lite and was just unguardable. I don’t know if the crowd got to him in the playoffs, first playoffs jitters, or the Hawks just did a really good job of shutting him down but I still believe in his capabilities as a player.

Now with all of that said, both RJ and Randle are still good complimentary pieces to keep. But we need a true #1 option. We won’t reach anywhere until we get one.

How is RJ a 3 & D guy? 42% of his shots are at the rim. Only 27% of his shot attempts are 3’s

Besides hitting spot up 3’s and basic layups he’s very limited

[BugginOut]

Even if Randle can’t be a #1 option, Randle can still rebound, pass, defend and shoot. Even paying Randle 26 million to be a third option would be great value

[Oscirus]

Even if Randle can’t be a #1 option, Randle can still rebound, pass, defend and shoot. Even paying Randle 26 million to be a third option would be great value

You dont pay your third options first. Great way to treadmill

[Meat]

Even if Randle can’t be a #1 option, Randle can still rebound, pass, defend and shoot. Even paying Randle 26 million to be a third option would be great value

You dont pay your third options first. Great way to treadmill

First options don’t come unless you’ve got a 2nd or 3rd.

[Chanel Bomber]

In my opinion, the Knicks shouldn't trade RJ and don't need to make a decision anyway because he has two years left on his rookie deal, and still plenty of upside (if we trust his work ethic). There's no urgency, theoretically we can wait until year 4 to pass judgement on RJ. But the series against the Hawks exposed his inability to create his own shot or any offense without having a screen set for him. He has a lot to work on, and one has to wonder if the instincts are there for him to ever become a reliable ISO scorer. If the answer is no, then the Knicks will regret not trading him 5 years from now assuming there's a trade on the table for - say - Dame.

I don't think it's unfair to call RJ a 3D guy at this stage, and even then he's really a stand-still spot-up 3P shooter who doesn't offer much versatility in terms of 3-point shooting (can't do it on the move, can't do it coming off picks, forget off the dribble). As far as his defense is concerned, it has definitely improved but he's not a great defender yet, and his lack of foot speed is cause for concern. So it's all about betting on his upside and his work ethic, which I believe in. But I'm just starting to question the notion or the assumption that he has a higher ceiling than IQ and Obi. IQ is a better shooter from 3, and he's better at creating offense. Obi is an elite finisher at the rim. And efficiency is the name of the game.

Randle is more problematic than RJ. At 26, he's closer to his ceiling. He's due for a big extension that will hurt our cap flexibility moving forward and that could turn this team into a treadmill. Committing to him is much more of a risk. Similar to RJ, albeit carrying a much heavier burden, he's an inefficient scorer. He seems like a tweener - not enough perimeter skills to be a dominant wing, not tall/long enough to be a dominant big. Brilliant all-around player, but fairly easy to gameplan against in the playoffs. The mental aspect is concerning as well.

Sure, the Knicks could run it back and make a trade for a player like Lavine that's sort of a compromise between going the "win-now" direction (eg trading for Dame) and going the "tank" direction (eg trading Randle to Golden State for a lottery pick). I guess it'll be interesting to see which street they choose. All I know is they can't afford to stand pat imo.

[Oscirus]

Even if Randle can’t be a #1 option, Randle can still rebound, pass, defend and shoot. Even paying Randle 26 million to be a third option would be great value

You dont pay your third options first. Great way to treadmill

First options don’t come unless you’ve got a 2nd or 3rd.

Bosh went to Miami, lebron and wade didn't go to Toronto.
Need a more recent option? Who was on the Lakers when lebron signed?

[nedleeds]

You dont pay your third options first. Great way to treadmill

First options don’t come unless you’ve got a 2nd or 3rd.

Bosh went to Miami, lebron and wade didn't go to Toronto.
Need a more recent option? Who was on the Lakers when lebron signed?

Warriors won their titles on the backs of 3 guys they drafted and one tampon that those guys beat, so he joined them. We should have been doing everything possible to maximize our high draft picks the last 5 years.

[NYKat]

See, this is where the numbers come up, Siakam when he made the all-star team averaged 23/7/3.5, he wasn't even among the top 30 players in the league for touches, he didn't even handle the ball the most on the Raptors. He scored and did things within the flow of an offense. What Julius did this year, and the numbers you're quoting are from someone who had the ball in his hands more than Lillard, Curry, Giannis, Tatum, Towns, Beal, LaVine, Embiid etc etc. He had the ball in his hands almost as much as Luka and LeBron.

You think that guy can be a number 2 option? He was basically the Russell Westbrook of PF, handle the ball a ton and post gaudy stats until the playoff exposal. I don't think you're understanding just how bad he was in the playoffs, everyone of our starters actually was over 105 offensive rating against the Hawks, except Julius who was at a putrid 84. Nah man, we gotta trade that or let him walk.

...And this is where the eye test comes up and becomes more important the analytics... look, it’s not quantifiable, but Julius performance in the playoffs was all mental, he was frazzled by the moment... The guy was passing up good shots (open threes, shots he normally takes) and taking bad shots and making unforced errors.

And if you look at Julius career he is unique in that he grows from his errors, year to year more than the average player. Randle is a stock, I would continue to buy on... but not as franchise leader but definitely a number 2, we’re really one piece away from contention.

No, it wasn't all mental, they took away his left hand and forced him right and did their best not to give up the middle. What worked in the regular season was no longer available to him, it's not like he's explosive you back up off him if the jumper isn't falling and hurts your offense because he refuses to give up the ball but can't even run a pick and roll because the opposing team will just switch it. It is quantifiable, he had one of the worst playoff performances of the last 2 decades, and you can look at his shot chart and see what the Hawks did to him.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/julius-randle-shot-chart-playoff-2021

If he were a stock he'd have 6 years of poor performance and 1 year of explosive price growth, you sell then, you don't want to be the one bag holding. His game doesn't lend itself to being a 2, he needs to dominate the ball. He wouldn't be starting for any of the remaining playoff teams because of that too.

So by your logic if we had either an elite point guard and/or a clear number one franchise player, Julius actually would be a worse player, because in his first playoff series he was unable to deal with a defense that was able to scheme and focus on him.

You sir, are a prisoner of the moment. This is what an over reliance on analytics will do for you.

if you analyzed that stock properly you would see relatively steady growth each year, in the macro. and this year is no different, the last five games notwithstanding.

[KnixtapeH20]

First options don’t come unless you’ve got a 2nd or 3rd.

Bosh went to Miami, lebron and wade didn't go to Toronto.
Need a more recent option? Who was on the Lakers when lebron signed?

Warriors won their titles on the backs of 3 guys they drafted and one tampon that those guys beat, so he joined them. We should have been doing everything possible to maximize our high draft picks the last 5 years.

LOLOLOL im fkn DEAD


That's the best nickname for that soft charmin herb i ever heard. He's everything that's wrong with this era of bball. He will never be a legend idc how good he is. He chose to take the easy way out every single step of his career. He's a disgrace to the greats

I Wish mase was around to punk his frail ass. Mitch will have to do

[Marty McFly]

Even if Randle can’t be a #1 option, Randle can still rebound, pass, defend and shoot. Even paying Randle 26 million to be a third option would be great value

You dont pay your third options first. Great way to treadmill

First options don’t come unless you’ve got a 2nd or 3rd.

RJ.

[Marty McFly]

In my opinion, the Knicks shouldn't trade RJ and don't need to make a decision anyway because he has two years left on his rookie deal, and still plenty of upside (if we trust his work ethic). There's no urgency, theoretically we can wait until year 4 to pass judgement on RJ. But the series against the Hawks exposed his inability to create his own shot or any offense without having a screen set for him. He has a lot to work on, and one has to wonder if the instincts are there for him to ever become a reliable ISO scorer. If the answer is no, then the Knicks will regret not trading him 5 years from now assuming there's a trade on the table for - say - Dame.

I don't think it's unfair to call RJ a 3D guy at this stage, and even then he's really a stand-still spot-up 3P shooter who doesn't offer much versatility in terms of 3-point shooting (can't do it on the move, can't do it coming off picks, forget off the dribble). As far as his defense is concerned, it has definitely improved but he's not a great defender yet, and his lack of foot speed is cause for concern. So it's all about betting on his upside and his work ethic, which I believe in. But I'm just starting to question the notion or the assumption that he has a higher ceiling than IQ and Obi. IQ is a better shooter from 3, and he's better at creating offense. Obi is an elite finisher at the rim. And efficiency is the name of the game.

Randle is more problematic than RJ. At 26, he's closer to his ceiling. He's due for a big extension that will hurt our cap flexibility moving forward and that could turn this team into a treadmill. Committing to him is much more of a risk. Similar to RJ, albeit carrying a much heavier burden, he's an inefficient scorer. He seems like a tweener - not enough perimeter skills to be a dominant wing, not tall/long enough to be a dominant big. Brilliant all-around player, but fairly easy to gameplan against in the playoffs. The mental aspect is concerning as well.

Sure, the Knicks could run it back and make a trade for a player like Lavine that's sort of a compromise between going the "win-now" direction (eg trading for Dame) and going the "tank" direction (eg trading Randle to Golden State for a lottery pick). I guess it'll be interesting to see which street they choose. All I know is they can't afford to stand pat imo.

Agreed. I want to trade Randle for the same reason I wanted to trade Melo after KP showed flashes. The quicker you know what you have in your pieces the easier it is to build your team. I cannot fathom this team winning a championship with Randle and RJ eating up half the Cap. Maybe if We draft the second coming of Jordan.

[thebuzzardman]

Building around Randle feels like building around Marbury would have been like back in the day.

If you carefully put the right team around both guys you can definitely max out as a 2nd round exit for 4 years.

[HarthorneWingo]

Go look at our record against Nets, Heat, Sixers and the non-Thannasis Run Bucks.

0-3 vs. sixers
0-2 vs. nuggets
0-3 vs. heat
0-3 vs. nets

Thibs banked fake wins against trash teams who were either sitting players out for covid or tanking. We banked like 10-15 compplete **** wins. This team is garbage in a normal season with normal rosters. We'd be lucky to scratch the 8th seed.

But yeah let's max Randle for going 3-0 vs. the Wizards and Lloyd Pierce.

That's why I ask, would you be surprised if we were under .500 next season. My answer is, no, I wouldn't. Now, maybe we make some moves this off season. But as things stand now, meh.

We're def making moves in the offseason no way the knicks get away with that half assed roster construction two seasons in a row.

You think we trade Randle?

[HarthorneWingo]

Building around Randle feels like building around Marbury would have been like back in the day.

If you carefully put the right team around both guys you can definitely max out as a 2nd round exit for 4 years.

You think we're should trade Randle this off season?