Knicks-Heat PG Thread

[Deeeez Knicks]

The sooner we fall out of playoff contention, maybe the better. There were some nice moments but chasing the playoffs was probably fools gold. Trade the vets, play the kids, try to pick up some future picks even if we have to take on some contracts (pending the contract)

Get on with a youth movement

[Greenie]

I'd like to see him coach a young team, and not have this mandate to make the playoffs. I wish the Knicks would do as they said they would do before the season, and go young. This playoffs or bust crap is killing the team as it always has.

I don't think there is a mandate. We literally walked half-assed into this season.

Too many vets.

Sessions is an easy cut imo. I have no real issues with Noah or Lee being here. If they turn the keys over to Frank, then I'd be more than content to see them bring up Burke as his backup. jack should be seldomly played in games.

We were supposed to do that from the jump.

[Thugger HBC]

I don't think there is a mandate. We literally walked half-assed into this season.

Too many vets.

Sessions is an easy cut imo. I have no real issues with Noah or Lee being here. If they turn the keys over to Frank, then I'd be more than content to see them bring up Burke as his backup. jack should be seldomly played in games.

We were supposed to do that from the jump.

I understand why they didnt, but I did think the transition would be alot more sooner, and it's almost criminal that it hasn't happened yet.

[dakomish23]

Read on Twitter

Come back to the Knicks beat. And bring Dubin too.

Knicks fans deserve quality analysis not hot take TMZ garbage

[Greenie]

Remember this:

Watch on YouTube

[Red Vines]

[Capn'O]

yeah, greenie did predict this.....often

She built the bridge and then predicted people would cross it.

Been a Knick fan for a long time. We are all insane.

I'll allow it.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Sessions is an easy cut imo. I have no real issues with Noah or Lee being here. If they turn the keys over to Frank, then I'd be more than content to see them bring up Burke as his backup. jack should be seldomly played in games.

We were supposed to do that from the jump.

I understand why they didnt, but I did think the transition would be alot more sooner, and it's almost criminal that it hasn't happened yet.

This is where I am at. I understand why they went for the wins when they did. The above .500 record kept them going.

We lost 8 of the last 10. Prior to that we were above .500 or at it most of the year. Now we're only 3 games under .500 after that losing streak. Is that enough to get the FO back on the summer plan? How many more losses will it take?

Is Timmy close to returning?
When are we bringing up Burke?
Can Burke actually help us?
How much losing will it take to change course?

That's what I am interested in right now.

[dakomish23]

The sooner we fall out of playoff contention, maybe the better. There were some nice moments but chasing the playoffs was probably fools gold. Trade the vets, play the kids, try to pick up some future picks even if we have to take on some contracts (pending the contract)

Get on with a youth movement

And maybe some prospects. I’d like us to try more lottery ticket guys like we did with MCD. You never who fits in with your youth movement. Some guys on teams trying to make the playoff push that might be available:

Huestis
Frank Jackson
Diallo
Ellenson
Vonleh
JHG
Beasley
Exum
Hood
Jones

[Capn'O]

Eloquently stated.

Do you think it’s possible we trade Lee & Quinn for a first? Enes would be a long shot but maybe something for him as well.

Perfect scenario is by draft time we have 2-3 picks and use them to trade up.

We have to be looking at those options. I'm not sure how good a pick we can get with those assets though. I looked at some of the teams awhile back and thought somewhere in the 20 range maybe? The other option some are bringing up is those two or Kanter could be moved for a guy like George Hill. That's playing with fire but on paper a lineup of him, Frank, and Tim at the 1-3 would be tough to stop... for a year. Probably too limited a window.

There's the Euro option with late picks again too. That guy Bonga could be another high upside grab.

I've soured on Hill.

I talked myself in and then out of that deal yesterday. I think I believe the Cap That Says No.

[thebuzzardman]

Jack is still boo boo though.

I can't believe how obvious it is and everyone is ignoring it or doesn't see it.

KP is tired. Not joking here and it's certainly NOT an excuse for KP because he SHOULDN'T be tired at this point.

But he is. He looks EXACTLY like mid season rookie KP and mid season last years KP.

And I used to wonder "why the f*ck are the Knicks guards looking him off?".

Two reasons. Well, one is obvious the and the other is conjecture. One is that they aren't, but he's being lazy, not moving, not getting good position, so they don't bother getting him the ball because, well, it's not a good play
The other, and I swear it's happening, is he gets position, no worse than any other time, and CLee will be like "ummm, yeah, f*ck you. Not giving you the ball" and swings it the other way.
I'm 90% sure this is Lee's way of saying "f*ck you, you aren't working hard enough out here"

Then Lee needs to go.
KP is the lead guy. Get him the fuqing ball.

Well, who knows.

I mean, it's pretty clear on a lot of the plays that KP isn't in the right position to get the ball because he's being muscled out due to strength issues but also because he's sort of drifting and not fighting due to fatigue.
The other where maybe CLee looks him off - I said it's possible it looks like he's looking him off. But it sure looks like it.

[NYKAL]

Sessions is an easy cut imo. I have no real issues with Noah or Lee being here. If they turn the keys over to Frank, then I'd be more than content to see them bring up Burke as his backup. jack should be seldomly played in games.

We were supposed to do that from the jump.

I understand why they didnt, but I did think the transition would be alot more sooner, and it's almost criminal that it hasn't happened yet.

I was certain Frank would be starting by now. Remember even writing that he'd be starting by xmas and it doesn't make sense. If he's good enough to play big minutes in the 4th, when the damn game is on the line, he's good enough to start.

[Deeeez Knicks]

We have to be looking at those options. I'm not sure how good a pick we can get with those assets though. I looked at some of the teams awhile back and thought somewhere in the 20 range maybe? The other option some are bringing up is those two or Kanter could be moved for a guy like George Hill. That's playing with fire but on paper a lineup of him, Frank, and Tim at the 1-3 would be tough to stop... for a year. Probably too limited a window.

There's the Euro option with late picks again too. That guy Bonga could be another high upside grab.

I've soured on Hill.

I talked myself in and then out of that deal yesterday. I think I believe the Cap That Says No.

Yea i would pass on Hill.

[thebuzzardman]

Read on Twitter

Well, since neither guy is that great in it, why not play the better defender?

I'd bet 3/4's of Franks P&R's are run for KOQ and Beasley and better than 1/2 of Jacks for someone other than KP, most likely Kanter.

I mean, KP does get in P&R's. Just not often enough.

[HEZI]

KP is still about 2 years away. Just like the roster around him needs to improve, so does KP himself. Strength, conditioning, decision making, offense, defense, all needs to get better.

You always say he's a horrible defender. Why should that suddenly change in two years?

2 years is not a sudden change. It's a process that is going to require another 2 summers of strength and conditioning training not to mention him becoming just a wiser player with more experience over those years.

[thebuzzardman]

KP is still about 2 years away. Just like the roster around him needs to improve, so does KP himself. Strength, conditioning, decision making, offense, defense, all needs to get better.

You always say he's a horrible defender. Why should that suddenly change in two years?

2 years is not a sudden change. It's a process that is going to require another 2 summers of strength and conditioning training not to mention him becoming just a wiser player with more experience over those years.

The degree to which you say he's a terrible defender in game threads doesn't sound like something that 2 years or ever will fix.

Bad at perimeter defense, bad man to man defender of bigs, just blocks shots because he leaves his man to pad shot block stats. Sounds terrible to me. Maybe I'm creating an amalgam of your and a couple of other posters. If I am though, that KP does indeed suck.

[DOT]

Read on Twitter

Well, since neither guy is that great in it, why not play the better defender?

I'd bet 3/4's of Franks P&R's are run for KOQ and Beasley and better than 1/2 of Jacks for someone other than KP, most likely Kanter.

I mean, KP does get in P&R's. Just not often enough.

Frank's numbers would probably improve if he ran the PnR with KP/Kanter instead of KOQ

KP is still a terrible screener, but that should come with him getting stronger

Our bread and butter should be horns and double screens, just for how much trouble those would give defenses. Cause now they've got to worry about 3 players, one who is an elite finisher (Kanter), one who can score anywhere (KP), and either Frank who is an excellent passer or Timmy when he gets back who is able to create his own shot

[HEZI]

You always say he's a horrible defender. Why should that suddenly change in two years?

2 years is not a sudden change. It's a process that is going to require another 2 summers of strength and conditioning training not to mention him becoming just a wiser player with more experience over those years.

The degree to which you say he's a terrible defender in game threads doesn't sound like something that 2 years or ever will fix.

Bad at perimeter defense, bad man to man defender of bigs, just blocks shots because he leaves his man to pad shot block stats. Sounds terrible to me. Maybe I'm creating an amalgam of your and a couple of other posters. If I am though, that KP does indeed suck.

Listen man, when the dude himself says he doesn't want to play center because he doesn't feel comfortable battling with the bigger stronger guys and taking punishment, then we see him struggle in situations when he does get matched up with guys in those situations, it's not hard to see his weakness. Then when we see his inability to guard guys on the perimeter, it's not hard to see his weakness. If you can't accept that he still has his weaknesses then that's on you.

[thebuzzardman]

The sooner we fall out of playoff contention, maybe the better. There were some nice moments but chasing the playoffs was probably fools gold. Trade the vets, play the kids, try to pick up some future picks even if we have to take on some contracts (pending the contract)

Get on with a youth movement

And maybe some prospects. I’d like us to try more lottery ticket guys like we did with MCD. You never who fits in with your youth movement. Some guys on teams trying to make the playoff push that might be available:

Huestis
Frank Jackson
Diallo
Ellenson
Vonleh
JHG
Beasley
Exum
Hood
Jones

Just to splash a little water on the "trade the vets for assets movement".

What assets, and what are they bringing back?

The Knicks aren't good. Not Good teams are generally a collection of not good players. That's the Knicks.

The players they have that have "value" aren't that valuable, fantasies we as fans tell ourselves otherwise.

About the only tradeable pieces on the entire team other than the guys we are obviously keeping are:
CLee, big ol KOQ, Beasley (maybe), McD (maybe), Kanter (unlikely)

CLee - at best fetches a low first round pick from some random playoff team that needs a veteran guard. Since most organizations aren't the Knicks, they value guard play and have a bunch. So, basically we have to hope a contender has injury depth concerns at guard. Can't think of anyone like that but basically Lee's max value is pick like 25-30 where fate hands a team an injury. Not likely.

KOQ - Knicks are at least good at stockpiling centers and I guess a team that could use some bench scoring a a couple of offensive fouls a game might surrender a low 1st/high 2nd here.

Beasley - playoff team that needs scoring punch would surrender a 2nd rounder

McD - see above just a lot less so

Kanter - really don't see anyone surrendering anything for a C with limitations about to opt in and get paid 18 million a year

Knicks better hit some home runs in the draft. Oh, and keep losing this year. Every ping pong ball helps.

[thebuzzardman]

2 years is not a sudden change. It's a process that is going to require another 2 summers of strength and conditioning training not to mention him becoming just a wiser player with more experience over those years.

The degree to which you say he's a terrible defender in game threads doesn't sound like something that 2 years or ever will fix.

Bad at perimeter defense, bad man to man defender of bigs, just blocks shots because he leaves his man to pad shot block stats. Sounds terrible to me. Maybe I'm creating an amalgam of your and a couple of other posters. If I am though, that KP does indeed suck.

Listen man, when the dude himself says he doesn't want to play center because he doesn't feel comfortable battling with the bigger stronger guys and taking punishment, then we see him struggle in situations when he does get matched up with guys in those situations, it's not hard to see his weakness. Then when we see his inability to guard guys on the perimeter, it's not hard to see his weakness. If you can't accept that he still has his weaknesses then that's on you.

Ah, much better. Just say he sucks.

I maintain his perimeter defense is average. The TEAM struggles to guard the 3. I'm not saying he never individually gets beat out there but so do lots of players, including good defenders. The Knick scheme has them overshading to the paint. If KP is a "bad perimeter" defender, then the Knicks don't have one decent one, except maybe Frank, because to a man they all give up a sh*t ton of 3's.

KP needs some work but I think you're getting a little carried away in your enthusiasm to say he sucks in general.