Julius Randle IS a 'cornerstone' player

[moocow007]

So are we still under the notion that Julius Randle has somehow convinced Tom Thibodeau that he should plan Barrett less and especially don't let him close games? Is that what the new mantra is? Figure that since this is a Julius Randle thread and we're now talking Barrett not closing games and playing crazy minutes that it's somehow Randle's fault? Please tell me we haven't gone down to crazy town?

[Richard4444]

to win a championship, there's like 3 or 4 guys you need as your number one option in any given year and quite often there's only 1 guy. occasionally someone outside that group makes it but it's rare. randle is not ever gonna be in that list. but if you wait to get one of the guys, you might be waiting forever.

Yes. You need a Lebron, Doncic, Curry, Jokic, Leonard, Giannis, etc. You can say we have 3 strategies to grab one superstar player.

1) Tanking and get him in the draft. Its harder than you can think. On average, its only one transcendent player in each draft. Often is not the number 1 pick (although the probability is higher at number 1 pick). And be the worst team is very hard. Especially after tanking for some time and get and develop good players. And even if you be the worst pick, you could get screw by the lottery balls. Theoretically, we can reset, trade all of your good players, and use all your cap space to get dumped players for assets. But the success is not guaranteed. It can take over a decade to get your real messiah. This will make your fans go crazy and the team should miss revenue, respectability, fans, and market value. Its not worthy anymore considering the talent and system we have.

2) Saving cap space every season to seduce him. A horrible team will not attract a superstar. All want to play for a Top 10 team and the majority want a Top5. The true difference makers should not hit the market very soon. And the competition for their services is intense. Decades of failure did not create a positive image for the franchise. Not a viable option.

3) Develop players as assets and lock them in good contracts. Make the team competitive. Invest in team chemistry., Trade the players for superstar if the opportunity comes. Also, If the team is good, there are more odds to convince a superstar to re-sign with us. Spending on luxury taxes can increase our capacity for asset collection.

[sol537]

to win a championship, there's like 3 or 4 guys you need as your number one option in any given year and quite often there's only 1 guy. occasionally someone outside that group makes it but it's rare. randle is not ever gonna be in that list. but if you wait to get one of the guys, you might be waiting forever.

Yes. You need a Lebron, Doncic, Curry, Jokic, Leonard, Giannis, etc. You can say we have 3 strategies to grab one superstar player.

1) Tanking and get him in the draft. Its harder than you can think. On average, its only one transcendent player in each draft. Often is not the number 1 pick (although the probability is higher at number 1 pick). And be the worst team is very hard. Especially after tanking for some time and get and develop good players. And even if you be the worst pick, you could get screw by the lottery balls. Theoretically, we can reset, trade all of your good players, and use all your cap space to get dumped players for assets. But the success is not guaranteed. It can take over a decade to get your real messiah. This will make your fans go crazy and the team should miss revenue, respectability, fans, and market value. Its not worthy anymore considering the talent and system we have.

2) Saving cap space every season to seduce him. A horrible team will not attract a superstar. All want to play for a Top 10 team and the majority want a Top5. The true difference makers should not hit the market very soon. And the competition for their services is intense. Decades of failure did not create a positive image for the franchise. Not a viable option.

3) Develop players as assets and lock them in good contracts. Make the team competitive. Invest in team chemistry., Trade the players for superstar if the opportunity comes. Also, If the team is good, there are more odds to convince a superstar to re-sign with us. Spending on luxury taxes can increase our capacity for asset collection.

+1

[3toheadmelo]

to win a championship, there's like 3 or 4 guys you need as your number one option in any given year and quite often there's only 1 guy. occasionally someone outside that group makes it but it's rare. randle is not ever gonna be in that list. but if you wait to get one of the guys, you might be waiting forever.

Yes. You need a Lebron, Doncic, Curry, Jokic, Leonard, Giannis, etc. You can say we have 3 strategies to grab one superstar player.

1) Tanking and get him in the draft. Its harder than you can think. On average, its only one transcendent player in each draft. Often is not the number 1 pick (although the probability is higher at number 1 pick). And be the worst team is very hard. Especially after tanking for some time and get and develop good players. And even if you be the worst pick, you could get screw by the lottery balls. Theoretically, we can reset, trade all of your good players, and use all your cap space to get dumped players for assets. But the success is not guaranteed. It can take over a decade to get your real messiah. This will make your fans go crazy and the team should miss revenue, respectability, fans, and market value. Its not worthy anymore considering the talent and system we have.

2) Saving cap space every season to seduce him. A horrible team will not attract a superstar. All want to play for a Top 10 team and the majority want a Top5. The true difference makers should not hit the market very soon. And the competition for their services is intense. Decades of failure did not create a positive image for the franchise. Not a viable option.

3) Develop players as assets and lock them in good contracts. Make the team competitive. Invest in team chemistry., Trade the players for superstar if the opportunity comes. Also, If the team is good, there are more odds to convince a superstar to re-sign with us. Spending on luxury taxes can increase our capacity for asset collection.

Just pointing out, Luka has Dallas below 500 and out of the playoffs. People need to stop putting him in the convo with Lebron and more like Harden/Westbrook.

[dakomish23]

Rj went from at one point averaging the most minutes in the league to not even finishing games anymore. Iqs minutes have been wildly inconsistent and teams are starting to figure him out. Mitch has been the same but with less offense. They've all legit regressed over the course of a half-season.

In other words, the development of our youngsters has been a huge fail partially due to this win at all costs narrative that thibs employs. Hell, thibs can't even be asked to develop the rookie that he wanted.

RJB has not finished games TWICE. Not 5 times in a row. 2x the entire season. He's had how many good performances for us?

It's not even one week since IQ showed out against HOU.

Mitch has been the anchor of our defense and has been great on that end except for a few games. He's not a focal point in the offense.

I'm not talking about development. We all know they would never be the #1 priority by this franchise. I'm talking about their output and it's correlation to the WL column. That's it.

That's cute, act like games like last night aren't happening where technically rj's in the game at the end but clearly not in the closing lineup and act like Robinsons scoring hadn't gone down and that iq hasn't been forcing it even more lately. I'm sure we can ignore those and just chalk these developmental problems up to cherry picking

I'm not talking about development. We all know they would never be the #1 priority by this franchise. I'm talking about their output and it's correlation to the WL column. That's it.

[NowWHYcee7]

to win a championship, there's like 3 or 4 guys you need as your number one option in any given year and quite often there's only 1 guy. occasionally someone outside that group makes it but it's rare. randle is not ever gonna be in that list. but if you wait to get one of the guys, you might be waiting forever.

Yes. You need a Lebron, Doncic, Curry, Jokic, Leonard, Giannis, etc. You can say we have 3 strategies to grab one superstar player.

Giannis is not on the level of those players.

[cgf]

Rj went from at one point averaging the most minutes in the league to not even finishing games anymore. Iqs minutes have been wildly inconsistent and teams are starting to figure him out. Mitch has been the same but with less offense. They've all legit regressed over the course of a half-season.

In other words, the development of our youngsters has been a huge fail partially due to this win at all costs narrative that thibs employs. Hell, thibs can't even be asked to develop the rookie that he wanted.

RJB has not finished games TWICE. Not 5 times in a row. 2x the entire season. He's had how many good performances for us?

It's not even one week since IQ showed out against HOU.

Mitch has been the anchor of our defense and has been great on that end except for a few games. He's not a focal point in the offense.

I'm not talking about development. We all know they would never be the #1 priority by this franchise. I'm talking about their output and it's correlation to the WL column. That's it.

That's cute, act like games like last night aren't happening where technically rj's in the game at the end but clearly not in the closing lineup and act like Robinsons scoring hadn't gone down and that iq hasn't been forcing it even more lately. I'm sure we can ignore those and just chalk these developmental problems up to cherry picking

[KnixtapeH20]

LeBron is the starting point guard and has been for 15+ league? Are we watching the same league? Elfrid Payton wouldn't play a minute if we had LeBron.

Thibs is not starting Quickley even if LeBron is on the team unless LeBron maybe advocates for it. Even still our shooting is still some of the worst in the league with Bullock, Burks, RJ, Rivers, Toppin, Knox... Thinking about it now u said we'd be a top 3 team in the east that's probably true but we're 6th right now, we're not far off... And thats largely due to Julius Randle.

We're the same amount of games from last man. I don't know what to tell you. I guess we just disagree on his value here making us sub .500 vs. just trading him while he's playing his best basketball. I get where you're coming from though, even seeing barely .500 ball is nice some nights.

I just think Randle is a huge piece of our puzzle to build this team. You develop or bring in other scoring options/better defenders/better spacing and this team becomes dangerous with our stifling defense.

[prophet_of_rage]

No one saw this coming. Melo would even admit that. I liked Julius when we got him....hated him last year. Expected more of the same this year. Low IQ spin cycle was his forte all year.

This season is definitely an eye opener. Could he be making this leap or is it feasting on a bad team? Looks to be making the leap and I am hopeful it is for real because...we usually trade players who become better elsewhere. This is a pleasant surprise. Keep it up and we pick up the option. Good place to be for a change.

This is what's so crazy. how can a player gain so much IQ in the course of a few months? it's obviously a combination of factors, not just one, but two that stick out to me are obviously coaching, but also slightly better teammates perhaps. I think most of the credit has to go to Thibs and to Randle himself for making the change, but being able to trust his teammates a little more might be helping. Knowing that IQ can hit an outside shot, or make something happen for himself definitely lightens the load.

We'll see if he can keep this up for the whole season. I could honestly see this team hitting the tank just as much as keeping this .500 play going the rest of the year.

Practice. The light bulb goes off and he's comfortable. Remember he started off in the box and a spin is a legit move from the double team down there. A spin grom the midpost up dpesn't wprk against a double team. A stepback dribble does.

He's got that down and that change allows hin to see an attack angle or a passing angle he couldn't see before.

Now he looks like his IQ jumped exponentially from one small tweak.

Basketball is a game of inxhes.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[Richard4444]

to win a championship, there's like 3 or 4 guys you need as your number one option in any given year and quite often there's only 1 guy. occasionally someone outside that group makes it but it's rare. randle is not ever gonna be in that list. but if you wait to get one of the guys, you might be waiting forever.

Yes. You need a Lebron, Doncic, Curry, Jokic, Leonard, Giannis, etc. You can say we have 3 strategies to grab one superstar player.

1) Tanking and get him in the draft. Its harder than you can think. On average, its only one transcendent player in each draft. Often is not the number 1 pick (although the probability is higher at number 1 pick). And be the worst team is very hard. Especially after tanking for some time and get and develop good players. And even if you be the worst pick, you could get screw by the lottery balls. Theoretically, we can reset, trade all of your good players, and use all your cap space to get dumped players for assets. But the success is not guaranteed. It can take over a decade to get your real messiah. This will make your fans go crazy and the team should miss revenue, respectability, fans, and market value. Its not worthy anymore considering the talent and system we have.

2) Saving cap space every season to seduce him. A horrible team will not attract a superstar. All want to play for a Top 10 team and the majority want a Top5. The true difference makers should not hit the market very soon. And the competition for their services is intense. Decades of failure did not create a positive image for the franchise. Not a viable option.

3) Develop players as assets and lock them in good contracts. Make the team competitive. Invest in team chemistry., Trade the players for superstar if the opportunity comes. Also, If the team is good, there are more odds to convince a superstar to re-sign with us. Spending on luxury taxes can increase our capacity for asset collection.

Just pointing out, Luka has Dallas below 500 and out of the playoffs. People need to stop putting him in the convo with Lebron and more like Harden/Westbrook.

I dont think so. I think Luka is a transcendent player.

1) Luka cant be stopped although the rest of the team is not very good.

2) Luka still very young. Room to improve.

3) He can shot (he should improve his efficiency over time). He is an elite driver. He is an elite passer. He is an elite rebounder for a guard. And he is an average defender.

I can put Harden in the same convo as LeBron and Luka.

[3toheadmelo]

Yes. You need a Lebron, Doncic, Curry, Jokic, Leonard, Giannis, etc. You can say we have 3 strategies to grab one superstar player.

1) Tanking and get him in the draft. Its harder than you can think. On average, its only one transcendent player in each draft. Often is not the number 1 pick (although the probability is higher at number 1 pick). And be the worst team is very hard. Especially after tanking for some time and get and develop good players. And even if you be the worst pick, you could get screw by the lottery balls. Theoretically, we can reset, trade all of your good players, and use all your cap space to get dumped players for assets. But the success is not guaranteed. It can take over a decade to get your real messiah. This will make your fans go crazy and the team should miss revenue, respectability, fans, and market value. Its not worthy anymore considering the talent and system we have.

2) Saving cap space every season to seduce him. A horrible team will not attract a superstar. All want to play for a Top 10 team and the majority want a Top5. The true difference makers should not hit the market very soon. And the competition for their services is intense. Decades of failure did not create a positive image for the franchise. Not a viable option.

3) Develop players as assets and lock them in good contracts. Make the team competitive. Invest in team chemistry., Trade the players for superstar if the opportunity comes. Also, If the team is good, there are more odds to convince a superstar to re-sign with us. Spending on luxury taxes can increase our capacity for asset collection.

Just pointing out, Luka has Dallas below 500 and out of the playoffs. People need to stop putting him in the convo with Lebron and more like Harden/Westbrook.

I dont think so. I think Luka is a transcendent player.

1) Luka cant be stopped although the rest of the team is not very good.

2) Luka still very young. Room to improve.

3) He can shot (he should improve his efficiency over time). He is an elite driver. He is an elite passer. He is an elite rebounder for a guard. And he is an average defender.

I can put Harden in the same convo as LeBron and Luka.

He’s pretty awful as an defender and always tries to flop. He’s not even close to being in the Lebron tier. His team record says so. Slovenian Westbrook.

[3toheadmelo]

Randle overtook Sabonis in fan voting. Good job guys! (Besides sham)

Read on Twitter

[HarthorneWingo]

Randle overtook Sabonis in fan voting. Good job guys! (Besides sham)

Read on Twitter

Randle should start

[spree2kawhi]

Wade played great defense for one. I hated that sonovabitch, but loved to watch him play. Booker is one helluva offensive player, but Wade is on another level entirely... he’s the 3rd greatest SG of all time. I doubt Booker gets anywhere near top 10 with guys like Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Harden, McGrady, Ray, Drexler, Klay, Vince, Iverson, Reggie, etc above him.

Do you think he's better than Klay Thompson, McGrady or Harden?

Are we talking about Wade or Booker? Wade played a completely different game than the 3 you listed. But yes, I do think Wade was better than those 3. Wade did everything those 3 can do but in one package. He could be a 3 point specialist when needed, he was an incredible finisher, and played better D than all 3. Wade did it all. Oh, and he won a few chips in the process too.

And this is coming from someone that hated that dude. I was never a fan of Miami. But respect for talent is respect for talent without goggles on.

I still think all three are better basketball players than Wade was. Just for context, I've been watching basketball intensely since 1992/93, so I'm not just too young to know Wade's game. I watched every game of his 2006 title run and still I can see when someone else is more talented than him.

You're flat out wrong on Wade's shooting. He was a D-League three point shooter compared to those three and overall basically couldn't shoot a three to save his life. He was a better finisher at the rim than Klay of course, but not better offensively in any regard than Harden or McGrady. Down two, I don't give him the shot over any of those three.

Wade was a great defender, of course. He was excellent at picking his spots and getting there, but the others are probably better at that and the same may be the case for Booker already, too. It gets tough when talking about defense and there really isn't much I can say to favor any of the others except for possibly Thompson.

After all, I stand by what I proposed: You put any of those three on Wade's teams and you get better results. His teammates were always off the charts.

It's the easy way out to credit Wade with the benefit of the doubt because of the achievements. But you can't tell me there's any scenario in which Wade upgrades a particular team any of those three players on. Wade on the Warriors? Worse. Wade next to Westbrook? Worse. Wade next to Yao? Still nothing. T-mac's is the saddest story. I'd have wished for him to play with Shaq or LeBron. He's literally one of the top talents to ever play the game and imo Wade couldn't have hung with him.

[spree8]

Facts.. some on this board act as if those type of players grow on trees.. those are generational types

all you do is gotta look at the list of champions. the last 10 years.

bron
kawhi
durant
durant
bron
curry
kawhi
bron
bron
dirk

outside of curry and dirk getting 1 each, 3 guys won all the championships. this year the teams people think are mostly likely to win it all are the teams led by bron & durant. they tell you it's a team sport, they lie.

Yup.. and further more most of these guys didn’t win with only the team that drafted them..they switch situations at some point. If the Knicks start committing to building solid teams that can lead to attracting on of these mythical creatures to lead us to the promise land

Ehhh, technically, a lot of them are tied to drafted superstars...


2008: Pierce (drafted by BOS and why they were able to trade for KG and Allen)
2009: Kobe (drafted) vs Howard (drafted)
2010: Kobe (drafted)
2011: Dirk (drafted)
2012: Lebron & Wade (Wade drafted and the reason why Lebron came to Miami)- vs KD & WB & Harden (all drafted by OKC)
2013: Lebron & Wade (Wade drafted)
2014: Duncan & Kawhi (both drafted)
2015: Curry, Klay, Draymond (all drafted)
2016: Lebron & Kyrie (both drafted/Lebron came back to the team that drafted him)
2017: Curry, Klay, Dray (drafted) & KD (FA)
2018: Curry, Klay, Dray (drafted) & KD (FA)
2019: Kawhi (acquired for their franchise guy they drafted in the top of the draft) & Siakam (drafted)
2020: Lebron & AD (FA & trade)

Multi-time champs prior to this..

MJ & Pippen drafted
Bird & McHale drafted
Magic & Worthy drafted
Olajuwon drafted
Duncan & DRob drafted

Finals loss:

Shaq & Penny drafted
Stockton & Malone drafted
Payton & Kemp drafted
Ewing drafted



I’ll forever fight the notion that the draft is some crap shoot that’s not worth trying to build your franchise thru. Look at all the top teams or superstars today...

Celtics: Tatum & Brown drafted
Jazz: Mitchell & Gobert drafted
Sixers: Simmons & Embiid drafted
Bucks: Giannis drafted
Warriors: Steph, Klay, Dray, Wiseman drafted
Nuggz: Jokic, Murray drafted
Mavs: Luka drafted
Blazers: Dame & CJ drafted
Suns: Booker, Ayton drafted
Hawks: Trae drafted
Grizzlies: Morant drafted
Pels: Zion drafted
Raps: Siakam drafted
Wiz: Beal drafted
Heat: Bam drafted


We don’t really have anyone on these guys’ level that have been drafted. We need one and will likely only be able to obtain one thru the draft. We could trade for one, but look what happened last time we did that (Melo)... we’ll have to gut our whole team which will likely make us a treadmill squad again. Free agency.. there’s nobody left for a few years.



I’m making peace with the fact that our picks this year won’t be at the top of the draft like at least ours should’ve been, but we need to at least keep them and try to hit on them like Spurs and Bucks did with Kawhi & Giannis later on in the draft.

But yea, Randle could be a #2 and RJ a #3... we just need that #1.

[DaGawd]

all you do is gotta look at the list of champions. the last 10 years.

bron
kawhi
durant
durant
bron
curry
kawhi
bron
bron
dirk

outside of curry and dirk getting 1 each, 3 guys won all the championships. this year the teams people think are mostly likely to win it all are the teams led by bron & durant. they tell you it's a team sport, they lie.

Yup.. and further more most of these guys didn’t win with only the team that drafted them..they switch situations at some point. If the Knicks start committing to building solid teams that can lead to attracting on of these mythical creatures to lead us to the promise land

Ehhh, technically, a lot of them are tied to drafted superstars...


2008: Pierce (drafted by BOS and why they were able to trade for KG and Allen)
2009: Kobe (drafted) vs Howard (drafted)
2010: Kobe (drafted)
2011: Dirk (drafted)
2012: Lebron & Wade (Wade drafted and the reason why Lebron came to Miami)- vs KD & WB & Harden (all drafted by OKC)
2013: Lebron & Wade (Wade drafted)
2014: Duncan & Kawhi (both drafted)
2015: Curry, Klay, Draymond (all drafted)
2016: Lebron & Kyrie (both drafted/Lebron came back to the team that drafted him)
2017: Curry, Klay, Dray (drafted) & KD (FA)
2018: Curry, Klay, Dray (drafted) & KD (FA)
2019: Kawhi (acquired for their franchise guy they drafted in the top of the draft) & Siakam (drafted)
2020: Lebron & AD (FA & trade)

Multi-time champs prior to this..

MJ & Pippen drafted
Bird & McHale drafted
Magic & Worthy drafted
Olajuwon drafted
Duncan & DRob drafted

Finals loss:

Shaq & Penny drafted
Stockton & Malone drafted
Payton & Kemp drafted
Ewing drafted



I’ll forever fight the notion that the draft is some crap shoot that’s not worth trying to build your franchise thru. Look at all the top teams or superstars today...

Celtics: Tatum & Brown drafted
Jazz: Mitchell & Gobert drafted
Sixers: Simmons & Embiid drafted
Bucks: Giannis drafted
Warriors: Steph, Klay, Dray, Wiseman drafted
Nuggz: Jokic, Murray drafted
Mavs: Luka drafted
Blazers: Dame & CJ drafted
Suns: Booker, Ayton drafted
Hawks: Trae drafted
Grizzlies: Morant drafted
Pels: Zion drafted
Raps: Siakam drafted
Wiz: Beal drafted
Heat: Bam drafted


We don’t really have anyone on these guys’ level that have been drafted. We need one and will likely only be able to obtain one thru the draft. We could trade for one, but look what happened last time we did that (Melo)... we’ll have to gut our whole team which will likely make us a treadmill squad again. Free agency.. there’s nobody left for a few years.



I’m making peace with the fact that our picks this year won’t be at the top of the draft like at least ours should’ve been, but we need to at least keep them and try to hit on them like Spurs and Bucks did with Kawhi & Giannis later on in the draft.

But yea, Randle could be a #2 and RJ a #3... we just need that #1.

Well some of those guys are debatable 1 options themselves.. (Siakam..Bam..Trae.. hell some even say Beal) and none of them have any chips to their name other than Steph Dray and Klay. Some weren’t even lottery picks.. the Knicks just need to get better at identifying talent wherever they fall in the draft and not keep continuously tanking for a lottery pick

[Davis18]

Teams need multiple so called franchise players to win a chip these days.
At least 2 superstar players.

Simple question.. is Randle max player.
PER isn't everything but it is one of key metric to measure players.
Randle ranks 33rd in PER this season.

We need to have one franchise player first before making a move for second & third.
Best way is via draft.. probability improves with higher picks.
Trade force you to gut the assets hence limiting chance to get second star player.
And FA, most players do not leave max money from home team on the table.

I think trading Randle is best for the team.
Let other team gut their assets for our player for a change.
And continue the search for our first franchise player.

[DaGawd]

Teams need multiple so called franchise players to win a chip these days.
At least 2 superstar players.

Simple question.. is Randle max player.
PER isn't everything but it is one of key metric to measure players.
Randle ranks 33rd in PER this season.

We need to have one franchise player first before making a move for second & third.
Best way is via draft.. probability improves with higher picks.
Trade force you to gut the assets hence limiting chance to get second star player.
And FA, most players do not leave max money from home team on the table.

I think trading Randle is best for the team.
Let other team gut their assets for our player for a change.
And continue the search for our first franchise player.

Franchise players can be found at any spot in the draft

[HarthorneWingo]

Teams need multiple so called franchise players to win a chip these days.
At least 2 superstar players.

Simple question.. is Randle max player.
PER isn't everything but it is one of key metric to measure players.
Randle ranks 33rd in PER this season.

We need to have one franchise player first before making a move for second & third.
Best way is via draft.. probability improves with higher picks.
Trade force you to gut the assets hence limiting chance to get second star player.
And FA, most players do not leave max money from home team on the table.

I think trading Randle is best for the team.
Let other team gut their assets for our player for a change.
And continue the search for our first franchise player.

Franchise players can be found at any spot in the draft

It's amazing that we're even still debating this.

[bleedblue3303]

Here's the stat to look at, in the past 16 years how many teams won the NBA finals with PF as their best position? It's happened twice, both times with Tim Ducan and arguably the second time Tony Parker may have been the reason for the win. In modern history winning teams are won with wings and guards.
Now take all the championship contending teams currently in the NBA and ask yourself is Randle better than the top 2 players on those teams.
Here are a few
Lakers
Nets
Clippers
Philadelphia.
The answer is no, at best he is the 3rd option. We cannot build a team around a 3rd option looking for option 1 and 2 afterwards. Randle is playing amazingly but I wouldn't worry about a few wins if it meant securing a true potential number 1 or 2 wing or guard option either in this draft or free agency.