Knicks Mavs PG: The friends along the way

[Rasho Brezec]

There's like 2 games difference between 4th and 9th spot. There will be no tanking.

Listen, I know the Knicks just played the Mavs so you are lingering in the forum, but give this advice on the Mavs board.

We still have some hope the Knicks will lose enough to get a better pick.

Lord knows they won't correctly utilize it, but it's something to root for now that all hope is gone for the season and frankly, the future probably isn't that bright for the draft or upcoming offseason, but hey, it's the Knicks.

If you're obsessed with the Mavs so much, go post there.

No front office is going to change course with a record that gives them a chance of homecourt playoff advantage.

[HarthorneWingo]

What's really disturbing to me is that this is how we come out of an All Star break where the players get to rest up a bit and the coaching staff gets to have its time together to come up with a way to get the team to put it into the next gear. Instead, it looks like we need an oil change.

I mean that's true for most teama/players but not a Thibs coached team. Randle, RJ, Bullock are dead.... The defense we play is crazy effort at all times.

Thibs roster and minutes usuage is the most insane thing I've ever seen. Playing players by the Q...? Elf the entire 1st... Just so ridiculous. Playing every starter with eachother. No staggering. How tf is IQ supposed to get into a rhythm when he plays the weirdest **** minutes of any active player on the team.... Not talking about guus like Obi, Frank, Knox

Yeah, Thibs is a maniac. New movie coming out this summer: "Maniac Coach" staring Tom Thibideux

[HarthorneWingo]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

Oh man, look at you guys! You look great. This is great! Congratulations. Love it. Expecially, the face hat. But I have a better idea, a Mexican wrestling mask.

Yes, I was saying this on the game thread. This kid is exactly what we need. Leon's first NBA was Rick, Jalen's dad. If Leon can't use his connection with his dad and the Brunson family to get Jalen to come to NY, then what good was bringing Leon here?

[Richard4444]

It's a good question.

Probably the most important one.

I see 5 scenarios to be honest:

1. Knicks make the playoffs, Clippers are a mess, and Kawhi signs this summer
2. Zion signs as a free agent in 2025 or 2026 via player option
3. Knicks miss the playoffs, finally get some lottery luck and draft Cade or Suggs (or whomever)
4. Knicks package their assets and trade for Lavine, and he reaches yet another level
5. Knicks trade Randle to the Warriors or Timberwolves for a top 4 pick.

I don't know if there's any other avenue tbh.

Knicks fans have to stop romanticizing about the draft. Players like Doncic and Zion that can impact the game from day one are very rare. We can not choose to lose all every year to try to grab one of them. Besides, we have to rely on ping pong balls and the tanking competition uses to be great.

The majority of the future stars plays like RJ and Randle at their beginning of the career and we need patience with them. They will not change the franchise overnight and if we grab them we would create threads asking if they are as busts.

The majority of tanking teams fail. The process takes years and they keep losing and losing. And the process is excruciating to the fans. And bad for business (attendance, merchandising).

No one will trade a top5 pick for a UFA 2022 Randle. Especially a small market team will not choose a player who they can't control after one year over one player who they have a 7/8-year control.

The knicks are in a really good spot right now. Their core is relatively cheap and we have a lot of picks. We can make smarts signs and trades to improve the team. We probably will not turn into contenders overnight. But if we stay competitive we will attract stars in the FA market or trade market. Every team is complaining that almost every star wants to play in New York and I am sure that is not because of the color of the shirt. If we stay respectable and competitive, we will attract our share of stars.

the draft is pivotal, but you can't expect that we draft great players in the mid-late 1st, it's just very unlikely. the best players come from the top of the draft

other than the draft, the avenue of improvement are FA and trades: no top FA's are available and trades would probably put us in another Melo situation

the top of the draft produces great talent. I went back and looked at every draft since 2000, and in EVERY year since then there has an all-star taken w/ a top 5 pick

not to mention, the the 2 best players the Knicks have drafted in recent years: KP and RJ, both top 5 picks

also tanking being "bad for business" doesn't really apply for the Knicks. they've been the highest valued NBA franchise through all of the tough years

The probability of getting a star in the draft drops heavily after the Top3 pick. From pick #4 to pick #15, the probability is almost the same.

So we have two options: tanking harder to make sure we get a Top3 pick or not tanking at all and try to develop the players, team chemistry, and respectability.

We have to tank harder to be one of the worst teams in the league or we will be only losing time with the tanking. Drafting Knoxs, Franks and Obis don't compensate for any sacrifices.

The odds to get a Top 3 or even a Top 5 in this draft are very small now.

We have to keep going and try to further develop chemistry and the players. If we do tank, do it organically without intention.

I think we will be ending up out of the playoffs anyway.

[NewKnicks]

i don't know that we can get lavine but they aint won a game since the vuc trade. that aint gonna be the reason he stays. they still suck.

So they're going to trade 2 #1's to get Vuc, then turn around and trade Lavine to get those #1s back? And then what? Build around Vuc?

they could also get lucky and land a top 4 pick (26.3% chance as of now) and then have a starting 5 of:

Suggs
Lavine
Williams
Lauri/Young
Vuc

If I'm the Bulls, I go for this. Screw winning this year. It's like the Knicks.. does it really matter if they get in the playoffs this year?

Find ways to keep Vuc and Lavine on the bench like other teams do with stars, and take as big a dive as you can.

That lineup is scary, if we're counting on Suggs to be an All-Star. You'd have three All-Stars at that point, a rising young player in Williams, and Lauri ain't to shabby either.

If I'm the Bulls I'm in full tank mode, regardless of how Lavine/Vuc feel about it. They're already half way there, just rip the bandaid off and go for the huge tank.

[NewKnicks]

So they're going to trade 2 #1's to get Vuc, then turn around and trade Lavine to get those #1s back? And then what? Build around Vuc?

The only way they would trade him is if he gets fed up with the losing and demanded a trade. But even then, because of the direction they have chosen, I'd think they would try to get another star back or a somewhat proven young player(s), instead of draft picks

he expires after next year. if he says he won't re-sign they have no choice but to trade him.

Lets say that situation happens, which I doubt it would (Lavine keeps saying he's happy with the direction the Bulls are going), they're not going to take picks back in a trade. They would do a star for star type trade. There's zero chance they trade Lavine for picks and then get stuck with a rebuild around 30 year Vuc. It's not happening.

[NewKnicks]

The only way they would trade him is if he gets fed up with the losing and demanded a trade. But even then, because of the direction they have chosen, I'd think they would try to get another star back or a somewhat proven young player(s), instead of draft picks

he expires after next year. if he says he won't re-sign they have no choice but to trade him.

Yea, he can choose where he wants to play. Whether it's the Knicks is a different story

Another good point. All Lavine talks about is winning. Why would he demand a trade to the Knicks?

[NewKnicks]

#4 seems like the only realistic path

Bulls just traded for Vucevic. Lavine is going nowhere. Scratch off #4.

Bulls traded for Vuc but that doesn't necessarily make them better. Perhaps a little, but not much if at all. Not to the point where Lavine is not gonna look at all his options.

First off, Bulls are not going to trade Lavine for picks after giving up 2 firsts to get 30 year old Vuc. That makes zero sense. If Lavine did demand to leave the Bulls (which he won't based on what he's consistently said), he would not demand a trade to the Knicks. He wants to win.

[NewKnicks]

Where is the Detroit pre-game thread? Can anyone start these threads? I'd like to talk about the potential franchise killing loss tonight.

[Reign23]

Where is the Detroit pre-game thread? Can anyone start these threads? I'd like to talk about the potential franchise killing loss tonight.

man a L tonight would be BIG. but I think we might win...

[Chanel Bomber]

Looks like Thibs and staff have been developing Obi up. Let's hope it continues.

Watch on YouTube

Kinda mad I missed that Obi putback.

I think Obi has a higher upside than Knox or Frank.

It's gonna be hard for him to find a role as a two-way player but he's moving more and more fluidly on the court and you can definitely see the offensive potential in those highlights.

I was worried about his functional athleticism coming out of college but those concerns are quickly evaporating, although his slow first step will always hold him back.

Obi needs to become a knockdown shooter. That'll change his game completely.

[Chanel Bomber]

Bulls just traded for Vucevic. Lavine is going nowhere. Scratch off #4.

Bulls traded for Vuc but that doesn't necessarily make them better. Perhaps a little, but not much if at all. Not to the point where Lavine is not gonna look at all his options.

First off, Bulls are not going to trade Lavine for picks after giving up 2 firsts to get 30 year old Vuc. That makes zero sense. If Lavine did demand to leave the Bulls (which he won't based on what he's consistently said), he would not demand a trade to the Knicks. He wants to win.

The Rockets traded away picks and Chris Paul for Westbrook.

They then traded both Westbrook and Harden for picks to recoup some draft assets.

Lavine's perception might change if the Bulls fail to make the playoffs this year and next. Vuc is an awful fit next to Lavine, and at 30 he's only gonna get less mobile with time. If the Knicks end up with a better record than the Bulls, then it would be safe to assume from his perspective that he could get farther with the Knicks than with the Bulls.

[Reign23]

hayward out might be another blow for the "tank"

[NewKnicks]

Where is the Detroit pre-game thread? Can anyone start these threads? I'd like to talk about the potential franchise killing loss tonight.

man a L tonight would be BIG. but I think we might win...

I'm feeling like it's a W, but the way they've played the last 3 games, nothing is certain anymore.

I also feel like we're in the beginning of a monumental crash, even if we win tonight. That schedule doesn't look good, and the attitude/reactions of the players during games does not look good.

-Randle is back to the spinnerama chucker, and the body language doesn't look
-RJ is going through another tough stretch
-DRose might not ever get back to the same form that he had after we made the trade
-IQ is not looking good of late

Not looking good guys. This game against Detroit has now turned into a monstrous game for the franchise. We lose, and all hell is going to break lose.

If we win, maybe, just maybe, we'll get a little confidence boost. This is our last chance, in my opinion. Lose tonight, and this board will lose it. The players will give up on the season (if they haven't already).

You'll be hearing chants of 'fire Thibs', and even the media might start back up bashing the Knicks.

BIG GAME

[NewKnicks]

Bulls traded for Vuc but that doesn't necessarily make them better. Perhaps a little, but not much if at all. Not to the point where Lavine is not gonna look at all his options.

First off, Bulls are not going to trade Lavine for picks after giving up 2 firsts to get 30 year old Vuc. That makes zero sense. If Lavine did demand to leave the Bulls (which he won't based on what he's consistently said), he would not demand a trade to the Knicks. He wants to win.

The Rockets traded away picks and Chris Paul for Westbrook.

They then traded both Westbrook and Harden for picks to recoup some draft assets.

Lavine's perception might change if the Bulls fail to make the playoffs this year and next. Vuc is an awful fit next to Lavine, and at 30 he's only gonna get less mobile with time. If the Knicks end up with a better record than the Bulls, then it would be safe to assume from his perspective that he could get farther with the Knicks than with the Bulls.

Chanel: Do you know the process of who decides who makes the pre/post and gamethreads? And what time the pre-game thread usually goes up?

Since I'm NEW ( ) around here, I don't know the process.

[NewKnicks]

Bulls traded for Vuc but that doesn't necessarily make them better. Perhaps a little, but not much if at all. Not to the point where Lavine is not gonna look at all his options.

First off, Bulls are not going to trade Lavine for picks after giving up 2 firsts to get 30 year old Vuc. That makes zero sense. If Lavine did demand to leave the Bulls (which he won't based on what he's consistently said), he would not demand a trade to the Knicks. He wants to win.

The Rockets traded away picks and Chris Paul for Westbrook.

They then traded both Westbrook and Harden for picks to recoup some draft assets.

Lavine's perception might change if the Bulls fail to make the playoffs this year and next. Vuc is an awful fit next to Lavine, and at 30 he's only gonna get less mobile with time. If the Knicks end up with a better record than the Bulls, then it would be safe to assume from his perspective that he could get farther with the Knicks than with the Bulls.

And I still disagree with you here.

[Chanel Bomber]

The Knicks still need a #1 option. Randle is a decent 2nd option. RJ might be a third or 4th option. I don’t know how we’re gonna get that guy

It's a good question.

Probably the most important one.

I see 5 scenarios to be honest:

1. Knicks make the playoffs, Clippers are a mess, and Kawhi signs this summer
2. Zion signs as a free agent in 2025 or 2026 via player option
3. Knicks miss the playoffs, finally get some lottery luck and draft Cade or Suggs (or whomever)
4. Knicks package their assets and trade for Lavine, and he reaches yet another level
5. Knicks trade Randle to the Warriors or Timberwolves for a top 4 pick.

I don't know if there's any other avenue tbh.

Knicks fans have to stop romanticizing about the draft. Players like Doncic and Zion that can impact the game from day one are very rare. We can not choose to lose all every year to try to grab one of them. Besides, we have to rely on ping pong balls and the tanking competition uses to be great.

The majority of the future stars plays like RJ and Randle at their beginning of the career and we need patience with them. They will not change the franchise overnight and if we grab them we would create threads asking if they are as busts.

The majority of tanking teams fail. The process takes years and they keep losing and losing. And the process is excruciating to the fans. And bad for business (attendance, merchandising).

No one will trade a top5 pick for a UFA 2022 Randle. Especially a small market team will not choose a player who they can't control after one year over one player who they have a 7/8-year control.

The knicks are in a really good spot right now. Their core is relatively cheap and we have a lot of picks. We can make smarts signs and trades to improve the team. We probably will not turn into contenders overnight. But if we stay competitive we will attract stars in the FA market or trade market. Every team is complaining that almost every star wants to play in New York and I am sure that is not because of the color of the shirt. If we stay respectable and competitive, we will attract our share of stars.

Which stars though?

There's no All-NBA caliber player on the free agency horizon.

Most superstars are under contract for a few more years, happy where they are or just old.

The obvious path to winning a championship is to acquire a superstar, if not a few. Even that doesn't guarantee you a championship, but it's the road a franchise needs to take. The 2004 Pistons, 2014 Spurs and 2020 Heat are the exception, not the rule. And even though I love RJ, and Randle's a legit All-Star, there simply isn't that superstar talent on the Knicks roster that can score uber-efficiently and have the gravity to make defenses pay with his playmaking.

The Knicks are in an ok spot. Not good, not bad, just ok. Granted, this is an improvement over the last 8 years, but the franchise is kinda trapped right now, hence the Orlando Magic analogy.

[Reign23]

hope the one that made the last GT makes this one as well!

[thebuzzardman]

Looks like Thibs and staff have been developing Obi up. Let's hope it continues.

Watch on YouTube

Kinda mad I missed that Obi putback.

I think Obi has a higher upside than Knox or Frank.

It's gonna be hard for him to find a role as a two-way player but he's moving more and more fluidly on the court and you can definitely see the offensive potential in those highlights.

I was worried about his functional athleticism coming out of college but those concerns are quickly evaporating, although his slow first step will always hold him back.

Obi needs to become a knockdown shooter. That'll change his game completely.

I'd agree with this.

Obi seems to have more ability coming in. Definitely than Frank, on offense, not saying much.

Knox? Knox showed some decent ability it the summer leagues - yeah, I know, and some flashes.

Obi seems to have a somewhat higher bball IQ than Knox, but his problem is being weak for position or playing style.

[Chanel Bomber]

First off, Bulls are not going to trade Lavine for picks after giving up 2 firsts to get 30 year old Vuc. That makes zero sense. If Lavine did demand to leave the Bulls (which he won't based on what he's consistently said), he would not demand a trade to the Knicks. He wants to win.

The Rockets traded away picks and Chris Paul for Westbrook.

They then traded both Westbrook and Harden for picks to recoup some draft assets.

Lavine's perception might change if the Bulls fail to make the playoffs this year and next. Vuc is an awful fit next to Lavine, and at 30 he's only gonna get less mobile with time. If the Knicks end up with a better record than the Bulls, then it would be safe to assume from his perspective that he could get farther with the Knicks than with the Bulls.

And I still disagree with you here.

That's cool.

But there's certainly a precedent for an organization trading picks for players, only to trade the guy they traded picks for (to bring in established players) for more picks to recoup.

Houston did it. Chicago could do it as well if things don't work out.