Star Wars Episode VIII - SPOILERS

[Meat]

JJ Abrams is a better director than this cat. I actually Enjoy JJ's Star Treks movies. They even reset the Universe with those movies, but its done in a way thats ok.

I disagree. I find Abrams kinda of dull doesn’t really take risks. This guy did brick and looper, both were also good.

well Im only speaking on Star Trek He reset the timeline and it worked pretty well. Resetting Star Trek is a huge Risk, you bugging.Also His SW movie is better than this.

worked well for who? those jj movies are horrible and nothing like "real" star trek at all

[SmoothLefty21]

http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag-the-last-last-jedi-review/

These guys nailed it with their review. I think this summarizes how a good chunk of the fanbase feels about this movie. They nitpick some plot stuff I'm not bothered by (I know what I'm getting in to with Star Wars when it comes to plot holes) but overall I agree with almost everything they say - especially with how messy the movie is, how it's over the top it is with its deconstruction of the series, and how the lack of an A-Plot/central conflict really hurts it.

"In theory, I like what Rian Johnson is trying to do. In execution, a lot of it doesn't work."

They go into detail about why the movie is mediocre from writing/plot/storytelling perspective plus what it means for the Star Wars franchise. I think they do a great job of pointing out the nuances of TLJ that really bothered Star Wars fans (characters [esp Yoda], humor, The Force, etc).

[IllmaticHandler]

I disagree. I find Abrams kinda of dull doesn’t really take risks. This guy did brick and looper, both were also good.

well Im only speaking on Star Trek He reset the timeline and it worked pretty well. Resetting Star Trek is a huge Risk, you bugging.Also His SW movie is better than this.

worked well for who? those jj movies are horrible and nothing like "real" star trek at all

They horrible for you I enjoy them. Now **** off clown, not even sure why your bitch ass is quoting me. I did not forget that underline racist **** you said.

[Capn'O]

Spoiler:

He was standing over Ben with a lightsaber. He choked in the end, but the fact that it got that far after we've known Luke as someone who saw the light in the darkest of people is absurd. He didn't ask Ben about what was bothering him / what he was feeling the way he felt, he went straight to kill mode. Again, after refusing to kill Vader because he sensed the light and conflict within, you don't see a problem with him handling the Ben situation the way he did? IIRC, when Luke was captured by Vader in ROTJ (?) he told him that he still sensed good in him. Where was that optimism here?

Spoiler:

I think you're missing the point of that scene and Luke's character in general. First, he states to Vader that he feels the good in him, the conflict. He mentions this at least four times in the movie, twice to Vader, once to Obi-Wan, once to Leia. In TLJ, in that scene with Ben, he EXPLICITLY states that ALL he felt was darkness, that Snoke had already poisoned his mind, that there was no going back for Ben. If you listen closely you can even hear people screaming out and dying. Luke didn't want this to be his greatest failure. And yet even after that, he felt shame for even thinking of killing Ben. He says the thought "passed as quickly as a shadow" and he talks of feeling shame for this. By the time Ben woke up it was too late to fix it, and we know what happens. The temple burns, Luke is at a breaking point with the Jedi, and he exiles himself (Yoda did the same thing). (Also, I point out, it was JJ who stuck Luke on that island, not Rian). That, coupled with the fact that for some reason people are forgetting just how impulsive Luke was and is. In Empire, he defies Yoda and goes to Cloud City and loses, putting his friends in greater peril. In Jedi, he nearly kills his own father even AFTER sensing the good in him. Only after seeing his machine hand does he pull back. And in Jedi again, he waltzes into Jabba's palace and thinks he can wreck **** up and yet he ends up with the Rancor and miraculously escapes. This is Luke's character. This is why he exiled himself, because he failed...failure is a huge part of this movie and Yoda even says to him that failure is our greatest teacher. I feel strongly that people didn't like this movie because of preconceived notions as to what we should have seen, such as a lightsaber battle, or Rey being related for some reason to a Kenobi or Skywalker, or Snoke being someone other than just an **** who was Kylo Ren's master, or Luke going all super Jedi and killing everyone. Maybe Rian Johnson went too filmy with this one, too much subtext, not enough familiarity, but that's exactly what people complained about with TFA. To me, they handled Luke's character perfectly and gave him the best possible ending. TLJ is as much about his redemption and newfound status as a true legend (see the last scene) as anything else.

This is my feeling too, it felt like a movie trying to move away from preconceived notions about the series and that's played a big role in the reactions. I think this article hit pretty well from a PoV that I came away with and you seem to be in a similar boar.

https://www.theringer.com/2017/12/18/16791754/star-wars-the-last-jedi-negative-reaction-reddit-fans

Basically. Seems like Johnson was irreverent to SW tradition and just made a movie. That's gonna piss off hardcore fans but maybe create a new lineage to follow.

Spoiler:

Also, Luke not sensing good in Ren strikes me as a bit of "these damn kids and their cell phones." A commentary on family and generational dynamics generally.

[Fury]

Spoiler:

Honestly, I just missed it.

Spoiler:

:lol: It's all good. Yoda's "exile" to me is more survival than anything, Lukes was not about survival. If Yoda was the only Jedi to disappear, and others did not, then Maybe, but every Jedi In the Galaxy "vanished" .He failed to defeat Sidious and there was an imminent impending doom that he deemed he could not handle (Order 66). he choose Dagobah cause he wanted to remain undetected from Vader, Palpy, Empire etc, and that planet provided him the best chance, cause Its an outer rim planet, and The cave of Evil on dagobah helped him mask his light side presence, which he learned it would do when he visited the planet to speak with Qui Gon Jin. This is very strategic. That tells you it was about survival more than anything. He also had that vision where he SAW the Jedi being wiped out with order 66 in the cave, he knew what was to come. Kenobi was protecting luke more than anything. He did not exile himself cause he failed with Anakin. That mofo had no choice to disappear That's not Exile to me. Order 66 changes Yodas and those Jedi reasons for "running away" vs Lukes. I see Lukes Exile as the only true exile of the Movies. He left the galaxy "unprotected" when there was no one strong enough to destroy him, the others did not. They literally had no choice. Jedi have failed many times in the saga. Yoda did not stop his apprentice fall to the Darkness with Dooku...he still remained.Mace Windu "Failed" with Depa Bilaba...he did not exile himself. etc etc.

Spoiler:

This is crazy to me. A slight difference in opinion on what a character might or might not do doesn't make a movie bad or poorly written. shtolky made some great points but because you don't think Luke would do this it makes it terrible. What Luke saw was some terrible ****. I don't think it's a stretch to say he'd do this.

The movie wasn't poorly made. It's directed really well, the storylines within the movie all pay off and the themes are developed throughout. The cinematography is nice, the acting is solid, I don't have any complaints because they went for something outside the box and succeeded on most accounts. TFA was basically a carbon copy of ANH. People can't let go of the past. If I wanna see a ANH, I'd watch a ANH. I don't need to see Empire Strikes Back again. Good for Rian Johnson for not taking the easy way out and take some chances. But Star Wars "experts" and readers of the "canon" think otherwise. Come on. We gotta learn to separate that stuff.

[IllmaticHandler]

http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag-the-last-last-jedi-review/

These guys nailed it with their review. I think this summarizes how a good chunk of the fanbase feels about this movie. They nitpick some plot stuff I'm not bothered by (I know what I'm getting in to with Star Wars when it comes to plot holes) but overall I agree with almost everything they say - especially with how messy the movie is, how it's over the top it is with its deconstruction of the series, and how the lack of an A-Plot/central conflict really hurts it.

"In theory, I like what Rian Johnson is trying to do. In execution, a lot of it doesn't work."

They go into detail about why the movie is mediocre from writing/plot/storytelling perspective plus what it means for the Star Wars franchise. I think they do a great job of pointing out the nuances of TLJ that really bothered Star Wars fans (characters [esp Yoda], humor, The Force, etc).

I will check it out later. I have not listened to any videos on the subject yet. Crazy how from every angle its getting bombed.

[IllmaticHandler]

Spoiler:

:lol: It's all good. Yoda's "exile" to me is more survival than anything, Lukes was not about survival. If Yoda was the only Jedi to disappear, and others did not, then Maybe, but every Jedi In the Galaxy "vanished" .He failed to defeat Sidious and there was an imminent impending doom that he deemed he could not handle (Order 66). he choose Dagobah cause he wanted to remain undetected from Vader, Palpy, Empire etc, and that planet provided him the best chance, cause Its an outer rim planet, and The cave of Evil on dagobah helped him mask his light side presence, which he learned it would do when he visited the planet to speak with Qui Gon Jin. This is very strategic. That tells you it was about survival more than anything. He also had that vision where he SAW the Jedi being wiped out with order 66 in the cave, he knew what was to come. Kenobi was protecting luke more than anything. He did not exile himself cause he failed with Anakin. That mofo had no choice to disappear That's not Exile to me. Order 66 changes Yodas and those Jedi reasons for "running away" vs Lukes. I see Lukes Exile as the only true exile of the Movies. He left the galaxy "unprotected" when there was no one strong enough to destroy him, the others did not. They literally had no choice. Jedi have failed many times in the saga. Yoda did not stop his apprentice fall to the Darkness with Dooku...he still remained.Mace Windu "Failed" with Depa Bilaba...he did not exile himself. etc etc.

Spoiler:

This is crazy to me. A slight difference in opinion on what a character might or might not do doesn't make a movie bad or poorly written. shtolky made some great points but because you don't think Luke would do this it makes it terrible. What Luke saw was some terrible ****. I don't think it's a stretch to say he'd do this.

The movie wasn't poorly made. It's directed really well, the storylines within the movie all pay off and the themes are developed throughout. The cinematography is nice, the acting is solid, I don't have any complaints because they went for something outside the box and succeeded on most accounts. TFA was basically a carbon copy of ANH. People can't let go of the past. If I wanna see a ANH, I'd watch a ANH. I don't need to see Empire Strikes Back again. Good for Rian Johnson for not taking the easy way out and take some chances. But Star Wars "experts" and readers of the "canon" think otherwise. Come on. We gotta learn to separate that stuff.

Fury for real GTFOH . Just say that it was not TO YOU. You keep trying to argue how another person views the movie . I mean seriously you sound crazy for keeping this argument going after its been established I dont agree with how you view it.. what is wrong with you not respecting someone's opinion? Its a poor movie to me. Cinematography has nothing to with my view on the movie, that much should be obvious.I think its a poorly executed movie in story and tone. You not going to convince me otherwise. I thought this **** was over with me and you speaking on it again, and you still trying to debate how I should see the movie. Just speak for yourself for real bro.

[IllmaticHandler]

Spoiler:

I think you're missing the point of that scene and Luke's character in general. First, he states to Vader that he feels the good in him, the conflict. He mentions this at least four times in the movie, twice to Vader, once to Obi-Wan, once to Leia. In TLJ, in that scene with Ben, he EXPLICITLY states that ALL he felt was darkness, that Snoke had already poisoned his mind, that there was no going back for Ben. If you listen closely you can even hear people screaming out and dying. Luke didn't want this to be his greatest failure. And yet even after that, he felt shame for even thinking of killing Ben. He says the thought "passed as quickly as a shadow" and he talks of feeling shame for this. By the time Ben woke up it was too late to fix it, and we know what happens. The temple burns, Luke is at a breaking point with the Jedi, and he exiles himself (Yoda did the same thing). (Also, I point out, it was JJ who stuck Luke on that island, not Rian). That, coupled with the fact that for some reason people are forgetting just how impulsive Luke was and is. In Empire, he defies Yoda and goes to Cloud City and loses, putting his friends in greater peril. In Jedi, he nearly kills his own father even AFTER sensing the good in him. Only after seeing his machine hand does he pull back. And in Jedi again, he waltzes into Jabba's palace and thinks he can wreck **** up and yet he ends up with the Rancor and miraculously escapes. This is Luke's character. This is why he exiled himself, because he failed...failure is a huge part of this movie and Yoda even says to him that failure is our greatest teacher. I feel strongly that people didn't like this movie because of preconceived notions as to what we should have seen, such as a lightsaber battle, or Rey being related for some reason to a Kenobi or Skywalker, or Snoke being someone other than just an **** who was Kylo Ren's master, or Luke going all super Jedi and killing everyone. Maybe Rian Johnson went too filmy with this one, too much subtext, not enough familiarity, but that's exactly what people complained about with TFA. To me, they handled Luke's character perfectly and gave him the best possible ending. TLJ is as much about his redemption and newfound status as a true legend (see the last scene) as anything else.

This is my feeling too, it felt like a movie trying to move away from preconceived notions about the series and that's played a big role in the reactions. I think this article hit pretty well from a PoV that I came away with and you seem to be in a similar boar.

https://www.theringer.com/2017/12/18/16791754/star-wars-the-last-jedi-negative-reaction-reddit-fans

Basically. Seems like Johnson was irreverent to SW tradition and just made a movie. That's gonna piss off hardcore fans but maybe create a new lineage to follow.

Spoiler:

Also, Luke not sensing good in Ren strikes me as a bit of "these damn kids and their cell phones." A commentary on family and generational dynamics generally.

Spoiler:

So you saying Ren was on FB?

[Meat]

well Im only speaking on Star Trek He reset the timeline and it worked pretty well. Resetting Star Trek is a huge Risk, you bugging.Also His SW movie is better than this.

worked well for who? those jj movies are horrible and nothing like "real" star trek at all

They horrible for you I enjoy them. Now **** off clown, not even sure why your bitch ass is quoting me. I did not forget that underline racist **** you said.

quoted you again

[Capn'O]

This is my feeling too, it felt like a movie trying to move away from preconceived notions about the series and that's played a big role in the reactions. I think this article hit pretty well from a PoV that I came away with and you seem to be in a similar boar.

https://www.theringer.com/2017/12/18/16791754/star-wars-the-last-jedi-negative-reaction-reddit-fans

Basically. Seems like Johnson was irreverent to SW tradition and just made a movie. That's gonna piss off hardcore fans but maybe create a new lineage to follow.

Spoiler:

Also, Luke not sensing good in Ren strikes me as a bit of "these damn kids and their cell phones." A commentary on family and generational dynamics generally.

Spoiler:

So you saying Ren was on FB?

Spoiler:

Worse. 4-chan...

Spoiler:

Why are we still using spoilers?

Spoiler:

Oh right. So KT doesn't ban us.

[IllmaticHandler]

Basically. Seems like Johnson was irreverent to SW tradition and just made a movie. That's gonna piss off hardcore fans but maybe create a new lineage to follow.

Spoiler:

Also, Luke not sensing good in Ren strikes me as a bit of "these damn kids and their cell phones." A commentary on family and generational dynamics generally.

Spoiler:

So you saying Ren was on FB?

Spoiler:

Worse. 4-chan...

Spoiler:

Why are we still using spoilers?

Spoiler:

Oh right. So KT doesn't ban us.

Spoiler:

out of respect. I think that after the first week we good.

[IllmaticHandler]

Spoiler:

Also isnt it kinda lame how Luke took to the passing of Han Solo. smh. They could have done a much better Job. I dont care how many people try to defend this movie. Its poorly done.

Didn't I say you were gonna hate it? I knew if I was meh on it someone that feels like you do on SW was gonna be mad.

[E-Balla]

well Im only speaking on Star Trek He reset the timeline and it worked pretty well. Resetting Star Trek is a huge Risk, you bugging.Also His SW movie is better than this.

worked well for who? those jj movies are horrible and nothing like "real" star trek at all

They horrible for you I enjoy them. Now **** off clown, not even sure why your bitch ass is quoting me. I did not forget that underline racist **** you said.

? Oh word? What I miss?

[j4remi]

Basically. Seems like Johnson was irreverent to SW tradition and just made a movie. That's gonna piss off hardcore fans but maybe create a new lineage to follow.

Spoiler:

Also, Luke not sensing good in Ren strikes me as a bit of "these damn kids and their cell phones." A commentary on family and generational dynamics generally.

Yeah, I understand the frustration of hardcore fans (I've had the same reaction when GoT the show mishandled book characters and plots). But I'm more casual...so I was more bored with the Force Awakens (Finn's story was the only thing that didn't feel like an "updated version" to me) than this one.

On the spoiler

Spoiler:

That's an interesting take on it for sure. I looked at it as Luke thinking he was making the same mistakes that previous Jedi Masters made (specifically how they inadvertantly birthed Vader), and slipping up. But that's me inserting a LOT of speculation to fit it together. Actually the idea of disconnect between generations would fit with my larger views on the plot and its symbolism...namely, the whole "we're leaving the past behind and paving our own way" concepts I think were sewn into the plot.

[SmoothLefty21]

Yeah, I understand the frustration of hardcore fans (I've had the same reaction when GoT the show mishandled book characters and plots). But I'm more casual...so I was more bored with the Force Awakens (Finn's story was the only thing that didn't feel like an "updated version" to me) than this one.

Some GOT changes/omissions from the book are frustrating or disappointing but I don't feel like they drastically changed the tone or feel of GOT. I think book-to-movie translations are one thing and generally accepted/allowed to have changes - movies based on books are just that, based on books. They are separate entities. The Last Jedi feels like a movie based on a movie. That's why some people feel this wasn't a "Star Wars movie" because it felt more like a movie based on Star Wars than a continuation of the previous movies. I do agree that only hardcore fans are the ones who'll pick up on this stuff, some of it is nuanced and some of it is blatant.

[IllmaticHandler]

Yeah, I understand the frustration of hardcore fans (I've had the same reaction when GoT the show mishandled book characters and plots). But I'm more casual...so I was more bored with the Force Awakens (Finn's story was the only thing that didn't feel like an "updated version" to me) than this one.

Some GOT changes/omissions from the book are frustrating or disappointing but I don't feel like they drastically changed the tone or feel of GOT. I think book-to-movie translations are one thing and generally accepted/allowed to have changes - movies based on books are just that, based on books. They are separate entities. The Last Jedi feels like a movie based on a movie. That's why some people feel this wasn't a "Star Wars movie" because it felt more like a movie based on Star Wars than a continuation of the previous movies. I do agree that only hardcore fans are the ones who'll pick up on this stuff, some of it is nuanced and some of it is blatant.

the perfect way to sum it up.

You would think that Rogue One would have suffered from this but it didnt. It slipped right in and felt right and home, even if you wanted to say it has flaws.

[Fury]

Basically. Seems like Johnson was irreverent to SW tradition and just made a movie. That's gonna piss off hardcore fans but maybe create a new lineage to follow.

Spoiler:

Also, Luke not sensing good in Ren strikes me as a bit of "these damn kids and their cell phones." A commentary on family and generational dynamics generally.

Yeah, I understand the frustration of hardcore fans (I've had the same reaction when GoT the show mishandled book characters and plots). But I'm more casual...so I was more bored with the Force Awakens (Finn's story was the only thing that didn't feel like an "updated version" to me) than this one.

On the spoiler

Spoiler:

That's an interesting take on it for sure. I looked at it as Luke thinking he was making the same mistakes that previous Jedi Masters made (specifically how they inadvertantly birthed Vader), and slipping up. But that's me inserting a LOT of speculation to fit it together. Actually the idea of disconnect between generations would fit with my larger views on the plot and its symbolism...namely, the whole "we're leaving the past behind and paving our own way" concepts I think were sewn into the plot.

Yeah, TFA was kinda boring at times because it was the same ****. I fell asleep during Rogue One. It's time to tell new stories.

Funny enough, I was reading how Empire Strikes Back was shat on when it first came out. So maybe this will age well for some people.

[IllmaticHandler]

They horrible for you I enjoy them. Now **** off clown, not even sure why your bitch ass is quoting me. I did not forget that underline racist **** you said.

? Oh word? What I miss?

This was a minute ago. You know, the type of comments some posters say in a slick way when speaking to us. I won't even repeat the wack ****.

[shtolky]

http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag-the-last-last-jedi-review/

These guys nailed it with their review. I think this summarizes how a good chunk of the fanbase feels about this movie. They nitpick some plot stuff I'm not bothered by (I know what I'm getting in to with Star Wars when it comes to plot holes) but overall I agree with almost everything they say - especially with how messy the movie is, how it's over the top it is with its deconstruction of the series, and how the lack of an A-Plot/central conflict really hurts it.

"In theory, I like what Rian Johnson is trying to do. In execution, a lot of it doesn't work."

They go into detail about why the movie is mediocre from writing/plot/storytelling perspective plus what it means for the Star Wars franchise. I think they do a great job of pointing out the nuances of TLJ that really bothered Star Wars fans (characters [esp Yoda], humor, The Force, etc).

I will check it out later. I have not listened to any videos on the subject yet. Crazy how from every angle its getting bombed.

Not sure how a 93% rottentomatoes critic score and the 2nd highest box office opening ever can ever be considered "getting bombed." A lot of people didn't like it, and a lot of people did. Nobody is wrong and nobody is right. That's the good thing about an opinion. Unless of course it's something objectively stupid like "is KP an alpha?"

[IllmaticHandler]

Basically. Seems like Johnson was irreverent to SW tradition and just made a movie. That's gonna piss off hardcore fans but maybe create a new lineage to follow.

Spoiler:

Also, Luke not sensing good in Ren strikes me as a bit of "these damn kids and their cell phones." A commentary on family and generational dynamics generally.

Yeah, I understand the frustration of hardcore fans (I've had the same reaction when GoT the show mishandled book characters and plots). But I'm more casual...so I was more bored with the Force Awakens (Finn's story was the only thing that didn't feel like an "updated version" to me) than this one.

On the spoiler

Spoiler:

That's an interesting take on it for sure. I looked at it as Luke thinking he was making the same mistakes that previous Jedi Masters made (specifically how they inadvertantly birthed Vader), and slipping up. But that's me inserting a LOT of speculation to fit it together. Actually the idea of disconnect between generations would fit with my larger views on the plot and its symbolism...namely, the whole "we're leaving the past behind and paving our own way" concepts I think were sewn into the plot.

Yeah, TFA was kinda boring at times because it was the same ****. I fell asleep during Rogue One. It's time to tell new stories.

Funny enough, I was reading how Empire Strikes Back was shat on when it first came out. So maybe this will age well for some people.

I liked rogue one....but you won't catch me arguing your take. FOH Fury.

I doubt it was schitted on by the majority thoe. Im not old enough to have seen it when it first came out, buts it generally considered the best one.