PG Thread: Oh no, we suck again!

[DaGawd]

A lot of us are desperate for RJ to be a star since he was the only top pick we've had since Ewing. The fact of the matter is he is a dedicated hard working kid, but he's not even the athlete that John Starks -an undrafted grocery clerk- was. fact is, he's short and non bouncy for the NBA and all his strength and determination won't make up for that. I think as a lot of you guys have said, that this loss is on Thibs. The team is what it is, but not giving Duce, Grimes or even Knox a chance during an early season game against a team playing mostly kids is a missed opportunity. eh, can't win em all.

The other top pick we had was undoubtedly a better prospect than RJ before he tore his ACL

[thebuzzardman]

I think Cadillac Ntilikina is taking things too far and maybe TS* Barrett should be used instead.



*Thabo Sefolosha

[cgmw]

As far as I’m concerned this is a giant W because it’s a wake-up call to all the fans with unrealistic expectations about 82-0 and competing with the Nets, Bucks, and Lakers.

It’s inevitable that the current team will take time to coalesce just as it’s inevitable that we won’t actually be 82-0 or compete with the Nets, Bucks, and Lakers.

Better that it happens now so the narrative stays within some semblance of realism, rather than it get inflated and burst dramatically.

Imagine Dolan in March sitting court-side with a 24 year old Russian “model” telling her that we’re an 82-0 team who’s as good or better than LeBron’s team (because Lebron is the only player she’s heard of). Then imagine us laying an egg like we did last night. Nothing good will come from over-inflated expectations. Better to get L’s like these out early so Thibs can go to the lab/adjust and work his way into overachieving expectations later.

[thebuzzardman]

8th seed or the play-in, tops.

[mpharris36]

I know this is REALGM and this place wouldn't be the same without overreactions but I think we will be fine and its better to have this type of performance early in the year then later in the year.

B2B vs a young team that was embarrassed. They wanted this win badly and we took our foot off the gas and settled for a lot of bad shots.

We let Cole Anthony go bananas which is a disgrace and I said in the game thread after Terence Ross made his first shot that he is the guy we can't let get hot because he can win the game for them and guess what he did.

They also played more scrappy then us. Suggs really was a menace on defense holding our guys to 1 for 14 shooting from the floor and WCJ did a nice job limiting Julius Randle to horrible EFF.

They went to the FT line 9 more times because overall they were more aggressive and hungrier then we are.

If we bounce back vs Philly this loss will be forgotten.

Even if we don't beat Philly, but just play better, we're fine.

Yesterday was about effort, not about missing shots or Kemba's defense, or whatever.

We just didn't feel like playing and expected Orlando to roll over eventually. By the time we got some urgency, it was too late.

I think we will be fine but in context we still struggle at the same things. Teams can center there attention around Julius and make him inefficient. And we pretty much have to rely on old man Rose to carry us down the stretch to get a good look.

Winning is great and we have been starving for it...but this was some people concern (and I wouldn't even call it treadmill) because thats too negative of a term for what the Knicks are building. But I think we can see a capped out ceiling with this team because the sum of its parts is better than its individual talent which is fine in the regular season. But a trade for a star (and the right star) is pretty much where we have limited ourselves to make that next jump. We shall see where that goes.

[WajaBawl]

Trying to find Buzz's long post about the team but too lazy, but that's essentially how I've felt since the off-season. Mediocre team.

I'm a big proponent of the youth movement and relying on cost controlled young talent. I always felt that RJ was the key for us to step out of mediocrity and take us to that next level. It's clear to me that he most likely won't be able to reach that level where he can carry a franchise. Barring a Giannis/Jokic level lucky draft hit, we've tied ourselves into improving through FA, whereas every other team have their young cornerstone players in place for the next 5+ years.

Basically, we need to get lucky like the Nets and Lakers, and hope a star wants to come here.

[GONYK]

I know this is REALGM and this place wouldn't be the same without overreactions but I think we will be fine and its better to have this type of performance early in the year then later in the year.

B2B vs a young team that was embarrassed. They wanted this win badly and we took our foot off the gas and settled for a lot of bad shots.

We let Cole Anthony go bananas which is a disgrace and I said in the game thread after Terence Ross made his first shot that he is the guy we can't let get hot because he can win the game for them and guess what he did.

They also played more scrappy then us. Suggs really was a menace on defense holding our guys to 1 for 14 shooting from the floor and WCJ did a nice job limiting Julius Randle to horrible EFF.

They went to the FT line 9 more times because overall they were more aggressive and hungrier then we are.

If we bounce back vs Philly this loss will be forgotten.

Even if we don't beat Philly, but just play better, we're fine.

Yesterday was about effort, not about missing shots or Kemba's defense, or whatever.

We just didn't feel like playing and expected Orlando to roll over eventually. By the time we got some urgency, it was too late.

I think we will be fine but in context we still struggle at the same things. Teams can center there attention around Julius and make him inefficient. And we pretty much have to rely on old man Rose to carry us down the stretch to get a good look.

Winning is great and we have been starving for it...but this was some people concern (and I wouldn't even call it treadmill) because thats too negative of a term for what the Knicks are building. But I think we can see a capped out ceiling with this team because the sum of its parts is better than its individual talent which is fine in the regular season. But a trade for a star (and the right star) is pretty much where we have limited ourselves to make that next jump. We shall see where that goes.

I think that's a bit fatalistic. We can get better on offense and defense over time. The team has to gel and I think Thibs has earned the trust that he will improve things.

Bigger picture, the treadmill vs. not treadmill discussion is sort of a pointless one, IMO.

The Knicks under Leon Rose were built, from the ground up, to trade for a star. That's the plan. Period.

Now it's just a matter of which one they pull the trigger for.

In the meantime, we get to watch a good team, but I don't think anyone in the FO is deviating from the original plan just because we're potentially good enough to be a 45ish win team.

[8516knicks]

A lot of us are desperate for RJ to be a star since he was the only top pick we've had since Ewing. The fact of the matter is he is a dedicated hard working kid, but he's not even the athlete that John Starks -an undrafted grocery clerk- was. fact is, he's short and non bouncy for the NBA and all his strength and determination won't make up for that. I think as a lot of you guys have said, that this loss is on Thibs. The team is what it is, but not giving Duce, Grimes or even Knox a chance during an early season game against a team playing mostly kids is a missed opportunity. eh, can't win em all.

The other top pick we had was undoubtedly a better prospect than RJ before he tore his ACL

You lost me at Knox.

[Gravy]

We lost when yall done jynxed Cole Anthony into prime Kyle Lowry.

But really they just got out hustled all night. It was the reverse of where Thibs teams are the ones pushing hard to win a reg season game and catches the better team off guard. Nobody except Rose could shoot... its an off night

If Kemba is washed I'd like to try Grimes as starting pg in that Payton role from last year: solid defense, let Randle and Fournier initiate the offense and close out with Rose. That probably wont happen but IQ is still bad at pg, and Mcbride is not ready and Rose works best off the bench.

[RandlesCornrows]

You guys over react to one loss is incredible I cant.

They’ll be fine just fine everyone take deep breathes.

RJ will be fine, everything will be okay. It’s game 3 of 82.

[mpharris36]

Even if we don't beat Philly, but just play better, we're fine.

Yesterday was about effort, not about missing shots or Kemba's defense, or whatever.

We just didn't feel like playing and expected Orlando to roll over eventually. By the time we got some urgency, it was too late.

I think we will be fine but in context we still struggle at the same things. Teams can center there attention around Julius and make him inefficient. And we pretty much have to rely on old man Rose to carry us down the stretch to get a good look.

Winning is great and we have been starving for it...but this was some people concern (and I wouldn't even call it treadmill) because thats too negative of a term for what the Knicks are building. But I think we can see a capped out ceiling with this team because the sum of its parts is better than its individual talent which is fine in the regular season. But a trade for a star (and the right star) is pretty much where we have limited ourselves to make that next jump. We shall see where that goes.

I think that's a bit fatalistic. We can get better on offense and defense over time. The team has to gel.

Bigger picture, the treadmill vs. not treadmill discussion is sort of a pointless one, IMO.

The Knicks under Leon Rose were built, from the ground up, to trade for a star. That's the plan. Period.

Now it's just a matter of which one they pull the trigger for.

In the meantime, we get to watch a good team, but I don't think anyone in the FO is deviating from the original plan just because we're potentially good enough to be a 45ish win team.

oh I agree. I know we get a post on here about the knicks not enjoying this team and can't break up the team chemistry.

But the eye should still be on the prize which is a STAR player to cast Randle and the rest into there better fitting roles, which I agree is still the FO goal right now.

The player they trade for needs to be the right star too because assuming they want to keep some of there more key pieces most of there draft picks/swaps will go in the trade so that basically will be our squad going forward.

So you are right in the meantime we get to generally see good competitive basketball waiting for that "next move".

The problem is. If Beal/Lillard are both dead set on not leaving and LaVine now is happy because CHI is a good team now. The options are kinda pushed back and then our tradable assets become less valuable because one you draft a player its like taking a car off the lot.

So while the eye is still on the prize...there is a internal clock that is ticking now that the value of our assets could potentially decrease.

[NYKat]

I think this team will show that they can beat any team but they can also lose to any team

[8516knicks]

Trying to find Buzz's long post about the team but too lazy, but that's essentially how I've felt since the off-season. Mediocre team.

I'm a big proponent of the youth movement and relying on cost controlled young talent. I always felt that RJ was the key for us to step out of mediocrity and take us to that next level. It's clear to me that he most likely won't be able to reach that level where he can carry a franchise. Barring a Giannis/Jokic level lucky draft hit, we've tied ourselves into improving through FA, whereas every other team have their young cornerstone players in place for the next 5+ years.

Basically, we need to get lucky like the Nets and Lakers, and hope a star wants to come here.

I don't think anyone's raised the possibility RJ himself sees his place now demoted to the #4 option after we added VETS (Thibs loves) Kemba and Fournier. Kemba does seem running on fumes right now and maybe Thibs needs to have RJ mentally put himself back as #2 (on this current team as it is).

[DaGawd]

I think this team will show that they can beat any team but they can also lose to any team

So mediocrity basically. Better than being a bottom of the barrel team I suppose

[GONYK]

I think we will be fine but in context we still struggle at the same things. Teams can center there attention around Julius and make him inefficient. And we pretty much have to rely on old man Rose to carry us down the stretch to get a good look.

Winning is great and we have been starving for it...but this was some people concern (and I wouldn't even call it treadmill) because thats too negative of a term for what the Knicks are building. But I think we can see a capped out ceiling with this team because the sum of its parts is better than its individual talent which is fine in the regular season. But a trade for a star (and the right star) is pretty much where we have limited ourselves to make that next jump. We shall see where that goes.

I think that's a bit fatalistic. We can get better on offense and defense over time. The team has to gel.

Bigger picture, the treadmill vs. not treadmill discussion is sort of a pointless one, IMO.

The Knicks under Leon Rose were built, from the ground up, to trade for a star. That's the plan. Period.

Now it's just a matter of which one they pull the trigger for.

In the meantime, we get to watch a good team, but I don't think anyone in the FO is deviating from the original plan just because we're potentially good enough to be a 45ish win team.

oh I agree. I know we get a post on here about the knicks not enjoying this team and can't break up the team chemistry.

But the eye should still be on the prize which is a STAR player to cast Randle and the rest into there better fitting roles, which I agree is still the FO goal right now.

The player they trade for needs to be the right star too because assuming they want to keep some of there more key pieces most of there draft picks/swaps will go in the trade so that basically will be our squad going forward.

So you are right in the meantime we get to generally see good competitive basketball waiting for that "next move".

The problem is. If Beal/Lillard are both dead set on not leaving and LaVine now is happy because CHI is a good team now. The options are kinda pushed back and then our tradable assets become less valuable because one you draft a player its like taking a car off the lot.

So while the eye is still on the prize...there is a internal clock that is ticking now that the value of our assets could potentially decrease.

I don't disagree. I think the "star trade" template is fairly set. A young piece or two, a bunch of picks, and some useful vets on movable deals for cap relief.

I think we will keep these template pieces in stock until the move is ready.

I also think we aren't passively waiting for certain players to declare they want out. We're operating behind the scenes to know (and maybe shape) the landscape.

The larger issue is that there are probably only 5 players in the league who are true #1s

[mpharris36]

I think that's a bit fatalistic. We can get better on offense and defense over time. The team has to gel.

Bigger picture, the treadmill vs. not treadmill discussion is sort of a pointless one, IMO.

The Knicks under Leon Rose were built, from the ground up, to trade for a star. That's the plan. Period.

Now it's just a matter of which one they pull the trigger for.

In the meantime, we get to watch a good team, but I don't think anyone in the FO is deviating from the original plan just because we're potentially good enough to be a 45ish win team.

oh I agree. I know we get a post on here about the knicks not enjoying this team and can't break up the team chemistry.

But the eye should still be on the prize which is a STAR player to cast Randle and the rest into there better fitting roles, which I agree is still the FO goal right now.

The player they trade for needs to be the right star too because assuming they want to keep some of there more key pieces most of there draft picks/swaps will go in the trade so that basically will be our squad going forward.

So you are right in the meantime we get to generally see good competitive basketball waiting for that "next move".

The problem is. If Beal/Lillard are both dead set on not leaving and LaVine now is happy because CHI is a good team now. The options are kinda pushed back and then our tradable assets become less valuable because one you draft a player its like taking a car off the lot.

So while the eye is still on the prize...there is a internal clock that is ticking now that the value of our assets could potentially decrease.

I don't disagree. I think the "star trade" template is fairly set. A young piece or two, a bunch of picks, and some useful vets on movable deals for cap relief.

I think we will keep these template pieces in stock until the move is ready.

I also think we aren't passively waiting for certain players to declare they want out. We're operating behind the scenes to know (and maybe shape) the landscape.

The larger issue is that there are probably only 5 players in the league who are true #1s

I think guys like KAT/Spida/SGA would fit into that mold of guys we would nearly empty the cupboard for but those pieces could be 2-3 years down the road because they all are under contract and there teams have little incentive to move them at this moment.

You canvas the league and you try to find the next opportunity but there are no guarantees. The template works as long as keep pushing assets down the road. Maybe the Knicks g
Keep trading 1st rounders for future first. But once there guys on rookie deals contract starts coming up (Mitch this year/RJ next year so on). The assets to make the right deal might not be as appealing to a team.

[mpharris36]

I think this team will show that they can beat any team but they can also lose to any team

So mediocrity basically. Better than being a bottom of the barrel team I suppose

Yes and no. I was stonned for saying I would trade anyone on the roster for Suggs. But in reality if you think of trade value is there anyone on our roster that would net more return then him?

If you suck you can land a franchise piece via the draft. Currently right now we can only acquire that piece via trade and it takes two to tango rather than a draft pick not having an option where he goes.

I'm not saying either way is better or not. But there are pros and cons to each way of trying to build a legit contender.

[3toheadmelo]

I think Cadillac Ntilikina is taking things too far and maybe TS* Barrett should be used instead.



*Thabo Sefolosha

Lmfao

[DaGawd]

I think this team will show that they can beat any team but they can also lose to any team

So mediocrity basically. Better than being a bottom of the barrel team I suppose

Yes and no. I was stonned for saying I would trade anyone on the roster for Suggs. But in reality if you think of trade value is there anyone on our roster that would net more return then him?

If you suck you can land a franchise piece via the draft. Currently right now we can only acquire that piece via trade and it takes two to tango rather than a draft pick not having an option where he goes.

I'm not saying either way is better or not. But there are pros and cons to each way of trying to build a legit contender.

True. I meant better for us in our situation since management is trying to just tread water right now until the chance at a star player arises

[GONYK]

oh I agree. I know we get a post on here about the knicks not enjoying this team and can't break up the team chemistry.

But the eye should still be on the prize which is a STAR player to cast Randle and the rest into there better fitting roles, which I agree is still the FO goal right now.

The player they trade for needs to be the right star too because assuming they want to keep some of there more key pieces most of there draft picks/swaps will go in the trade so that basically will be our squad going forward.

So you are right in the meantime we get to generally see good competitive basketball waiting for that "next move".

The problem is. If Beal/Lillard are both dead set on not leaving and LaVine now is happy because CHI is a good team now. The options are kinda pushed back and then our tradable assets become less valuable because one you draft a player its like taking a car off the lot.

So while the eye is still on the prize...there is a internal clock that is ticking now that the value of our assets could potentially decrease.

I don't disagree. I think the "star trade" template is fairly set. A young piece or two, a bunch of picks, and some useful vets on movable deals for cap relief.

I think we will keep these template pieces in stock until the move is ready.

I also think we aren't passively waiting for certain players to declare they want out. We're operating behind the scenes to know (and maybe shape) the landscape.

The larger issue is that there are probably only 5 players in the league who are true #1s

I think guys like KAT/Spida/SGA would fit into that mold of guys we would nearly empty the cupboard for but those pieces could be 2-3 years down the road because they all are under contract and there teams have little incentive to move them at this moment.

You canvas the league and you try to find the next opportunity but there are no guarantees. The template works as long as keep pushing assets down the road. Maybe the Knicks g
Keep trading 1st rounders for future first. But once there guys on rookie deals contract starts coming up (Mitch this year/RJ next year so on). The assets to make the right deal might not be as appealing to a team.

It's interesting you bring up Mitchell. I almost put his name as the poster child of someone who would be expensive, but I don't think helps us that much and I don't think is a true #1.

I think the legend of Spida is starting to cast a bigger shadow than his actual production warrants. He needs to make another leap.

KAT...meh

SGA I'm all in on.