Knicks - Hawks PG: This is what effort looks like

[3toheadmelo]

We're spending a lot of time talking about the guards, but I think Julius being completely engaged on defense, even in a bad shooting night, is just as big of a story

This right here is a great person!!!!

[thebuzzardman]

Burks is a much better defender than Elfraud. He doesn't just die on every screen.

You can make the case he's better defensively than RJ too, although I'd say they're about equal. He's miles better than Kemba, Fournier and Rose.

On offense he's more versatile and more efficient than RJ, more dynamic than Fournier, can play on and off the ball, although he can have tunnel vision and make silly turnovers. He's still one of our 3 best offensive players.

He's one of our few players who are good in their roles. The Knicks would be a better team if he played more minutes. Same with IQ.

Knick fans are reluctant to admit it, but Burks is a better player than RJ. I mean, on the one hand he should be, being 10 years older. And I'm fully aware that when Burks' minutes goes up, so does his tendency to start missing, or at least get streaky and force stuff. But even with all that, he's better.

As soon as I posted in the GT that Burks was being selfish and sloppy he went on a tear. He’d be a borderline star if he could clean up his game a little more, but then he might no longer be himself

I forget the exact arc of his career, but he was drafted pretty high, was a good prospect, but injuries limited his playing time. After that, I'd guess it was a combination of his health and consistency. He's the kind of player a team would want for the bench. Can play at a level of a good starter at times, solid all around game other times, but you get to sit him when he's not consistent.

Rose was probably Thibs pushing for him, but still a great move and contract. Burks is an excellent pickup. Funny how the same FO that thought Rose and Burks were good ideas also thought Fournier and Kemba were the best solution. Then again, I thought it they were a solid move, so what do I know? I get Fournier as a TYPE because of RJ's limitations and the need for an all around wing, but whichever FO guy thought that Fournier and Kemba would be a good fit in the starting lineup together, that guy needs to be fired.

[robillionaire]

Read on Twitter

well damn

We got the worst player in the entire draft. Sad.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

sham told y'all last year. you guys tried to bench him after the first 2 weeks of the season. sad. really horrible people.

His offense was going to come around. The defense part of that has been impressive. Plus his passing looks improved

[thebuzzardman]

Got to watch the first half. I know Thibs is stubborn AF regarding changing lineups but his in game substitution pattern was interesting in the 2nd quarter. Now, I get that Rose being out and Kemba sitting forced it, but Thibs stuck with IQ and Grimes a lot longer than I thought and went with Obi all the way to 2 minutes left. Then he subbed in Burks, but left in IQ, subbed in Fournier but left in Obi, then finally subbed in Randle for Obi.

Thibs might be tweaking the rotation to put RJ with the bench more - RJ played with that unit earlier in the 2nd. My example up top isn't about RJ, just interesting that Thibs decided to go with Burks & Fournier shooting around IQ. I guess.

[NYKat]

Really like what I’m seeing from Grimes so far. As a rookie his defense is already legit which is huge for his development. Plus his release is so quick and pure. Best looking jumper on the team.

His floor is already a rotational 3&D guy, which is huge as we continue to build out the roster where we might need to trade some depth for a star player.

We'll hate him by next year.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

It’s the Knick fan way

[Jimmit79]

Alec Burks never averaged double digit points until his 3rd season in Utah and spent most of his career being a net negative on the court(way worse over players you dramatically cry about). He was never a good defender in Utah. His defense is average at best right now because he has Robinson/Noel behind him for when he gets beat. You can't even make a list of players Burks has "shut down" with his defense, so stop acting like he can clamp dudes up. Burks defense...if it was so great, why did Utah fans for multiple seasons begged management to ship Burks away? Most Jazz fans were pissed when they resigned him and he didnt live up to his contract. Burks did absolutely nothing for us in the playoffs.

career in the playoffs:
10 ppg
39% FG
32% 3PT

Burks is fine where he is now. A reserve off the bench on limited minutes. We win one game with Burks starting and dramaboys, want to proclaim Burks the franchise player of this team. Mental.

RJ in his 3rd year is light years ahead of Burks in his 3rd year and overall RIGHT NOW despite RJ's slump
RJ shot 40% in his SOPHMORE season on 17 ppg and good defense.
It took Burks 5 seasons to become that kind of shooter and his defense was very ass in his 5th year.


a developing 21 year old who averaging 6 rebounds per game, dropped a career high (higher than Burks goofy)

RJ will be a better defender as the season comes along. His potential is CLEARLY there and you guys eat too much within 20 games. Do you guys even watch games at this point or just check scoreboards? RJ constantly fighting over screens and his strength has been an asset.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

the end this debate comes by asking the forum who they would rather have if their shooting % average out through the season.
It's easy to claim "Burks is better" because RJ is shooting below his career averages. But if you project RJ to stay around 39% shooting, obviously the K2 consumption is real in your life and you need serious help.

RJ will have a long season to drop multiple 30 point games. His numbers will be normalized and so will Burks. It's not even close. RJ is a legit corner stone of this franchise at age 21 and Alec Burks is just a reserve who can be easily replaced.


People take small sample sizes and want to run a non-sensible take. At best, Alec Burks is Tim Hardaway Jr with less offense slightly better defense, but not good enough defense to say he's "good".

What will put RJ ahead of Burks always is RJ has very active hands and feet. Plus has strength to absorb bumps on picks, where as Burks get devoured for free. RJ had one of the best plu-minus in defensive ratings at his position last year(way larger sample size than 20 games)

RJ was drafted into a system that matches his skill-set...Burks was sign to be a reserve.

Imagine if we had a situation like Jimmy Butler or Paul George who took a while to develop (longer than RJ), bussychild would of raged over a few losses and streaky games and proclaimed someone like Burks is better right now without considering skillset.
K2 consumption is dangerous and I invite you guys to use post like that as an example on why to never experiment with drugs. RJ is still 5 years from his prime. Butler wasn't even in the NBA at age 21. RJ already has 3 seasons on his belt. RJ was holding guys to 35-40% in the season and bussy was quiet af. When RJ comes back and does it again, you'll know who will get quiet. Fake Knick fans giving up on a 21 year old

Only fake fans bark after one mediocre game from RJ this entire month

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk

[thebuzzardman]

Alec Burks never averaged double digit points until his 3rd season in Utah and spent most of his career being a net negative on the court(way worse over players you dramatically cry about). He was never a good defender in Utah. His defense is average at best right now because he has Robinson/Noel behind him for when he gets beat. You can't even make a list of players Burks has "shut down" with his defense, so stop acting like he can clamp dudes up. Burks defense...if it was so great, why did Utah fans for multiple seasons begged management to ship Burks away? Most Jazz fans were pissed when they resigned him and he didnt live up to his contract. Burks did absolutely nothing for us in the playoffs.

career in the playoffs:
10 ppg
39% FG
32% 3PT

Burks is fine where he is now. A reserve off the bench on limited minutes. We win one game with Burks starting and dramaboys, want to proclaim Burks the franchise player of this team. Mental.

RJ in his 3rd year is light years ahead of Burks in his 3rd year and overall RIGHT NOW despite RJ's slump
RJ shot 40% in his SOPHMORE season on 17 ppg and good defense.
It took Burks 5 seasons to become that kind of shooter and his defense was very ass in his 5th year.


a developing 21 year old who averaging 6 rebounds per game, dropped a career high (higher than Burks goofy)

RJ will be a better defender as the season comes along. His potential is CLEARLY there and you guys eat too much within 20 games. Do you guys even watch games at this point or just check scoreboards? RJ constantly fighting over screens and his strength has been an asset.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

the end this debate comes by asking the forum who they would rather have if their shooting % average out through the season.
It's easy to claim "Burks is better" because RJ is shooting below his career averages. But if you project RJ to stay around 39% shooting, obviously the K2 consumption is real in your life and you need serious help.

RJ will have a long season to drop multiple 30 point games. His numbers will be normalized and so will Burks. It's not even close. RJ is a legit corner stone of this franchise at age 21 and Alec Burks is just a reserve who can be easily replaced.


People take small sample sizes and want to run a non-sensible take. At best, Alec Burks is Tim Hardaway Jr with less offense slightly better defense, but not good enough defense to say he's "good".

What will put RJ ahead of Burks always is RJ has very active hands and feet. Plus has strength to absorb bumps on picks, where as Burks get devoured for free. RJ had one of the best plu-minus in defensive ratings at his position last year(way larger sample size than 20 games)

RJ was drafted into a system that matches his skill-set...Burks was sign to be a reserve.

Imagine if we had a situation like Jimmy Butler or Paul George who took a while to develop (longer than RJ), bussychild would of raged over a few losses and streaky games and proclaimed someone like Burks is better right now without considering skillset.
K2 consumption is dangerous and I invite you guys to use post like that as an example on why to never experiment with drugs. RJ is still 5 years from his prime. Butler wasn't even in the NBA at age 21. RJ already has 3 seasons on his belt. RJ was holding guys to 35-40% in the season and bussy was quiet af. When RJ comes back and does it again, you'll know who will get quiet. Fake Knick fans giving up on a 21 year old

Burks is playing better than RJ right now. I pointed out he should be because he's 10 years older.
RJ has been pretty bad for pretty long stretch, that's a fact. I'm not the only poster on his case.
RJ has been pretty ordinary even for a young player, for a guy drafted at #3. That's ok; it happens. Can't control who is in what draft after the draft order is set.
I think he'll be an average wing. I hope I'm wrong. He has a lot to get better at to be more than that. Some of which are based on quickness and explosiveness, which I don't think are going to change. Or to get elite at dribbling and adding hesitations and change of pace, which theoretically could be done, but I don't think NBA players elevate their handle that much. Do they improve? Absolutely.
I don't know about other posters on here, but all I'll generally say about Burks, going back to last year and this offseason, is that he's a really good bench player with the all around game the Knicks desperately need, which is why he should have been and was a priority to resign over Bullocks, in spite of Bullocks being a better defender.

I was quiet when RJ was playing well because I expect guys drafted #3 and given tons of minutes to produce.

[Clyde_Style]

Knick fans are reluctant to admit it, but Burks is a better player than RJ. I mean, on the one hand he should be, being 10 years older. And I'm fully aware that when Burks' minutes goes up, so does his tendency to start missing, or at least get streaky and force stuff. But even with all that, he's better.

As soon as I posted in the GT that Burks was being selfish and sloppy he went on a tear. He’d be a borderline star if he could clean up his game a little more, but then he might no longer be himself

I forget the exact arc of his career, but he was drafted pretty high, was a good prospect, but injuries limited his playing time. After that, I'd guess it was a combination of his health and consistency. He's the kind of player a team would want for the bench. Can play at a level of a good starter at times, solid all around game other times, but you get to sit him when he's not consistent.

Rose was probably Thibs pushing for him, but still a great move and contract. Burks is an excellent pickup. Funny how the same FO that thought Rose and Burks were good ideas also thought Fournier and Kemba were the best solution. Then again, I thought it they were a solid move, so what do I know? I get Fournier as a TYPE because of RJ's limitations and the need for an all around wing, but whichever FO guy thought that Fournier and Kemba would be a good fit in the starting lineup together, that guy needs to be fired.

Kemba was an afterthought that became a starphucking centerpiece by dint of availability and relatively low cost. It was a straying from any values the FO was trying to build and a regression into the past. They literally pinched themselves that they could add Kemba’s name to the roster without understanding his career is essentially over. If no one else wanted him, then why did they think he’s a starter? Kemba was the biggest mistake of the off-season followed by overpays to Randle and Fournier.

I’m set on trading Randle. He has to completely re-invent himself and he will never fully succeed, but the Randle of last season is mostly not what this team will need to succeed. Julius came back believing the team revolved around him.

Last night was yet another wake up call. The wake up calls are coming in both losses and in wins. In losses, we see how Kemba cannot defend and is only effective as an actual PG a small percent of the time. Mostly he’s a jump shooter who sometimes gets hot. And in wins Kemba has been a key factor twice at most.

In losses, we see Randle makes everything about himself too often on offense and he pouts over it. He is toxic about it. In wins, he is sometimes a factor, but last night was the most solid case that Randle is not even the most important player on the team, because he is not fully adapted to being anything resembling a team-oriented player.

And if Randle is not the most important player on your team you should not be paying him # 1 or # 2 option money. He’s greatly overpaid and needs to be moved.

Fournier is overpaid, but makes less and that may make him more moveable though I can’t say that’s true. But I do feel he is like a # 3 option on this team if you trade Randle which is fine if he wasn’t paid to be the # 2 option.

So if we could trade Randle, I’d be able to stomach finding a way to utilize Fournier, because, like RJ, he plays better without Randle.

Even RJ is better without Randle.

In Sum, EVERYONE ON THIS TEAM IS BETTER WITHOUT RANDLE

[Chanel Bomber]

Read on Twitter

well damn

I don't put much stock into those charts but in this case they confirm both the eye test and the advanced numbers for RJ.

It's just not going to happen for RJ.

He's wildly inefficient as an off-ball role player - the stats show it.

He's completely incompetent as an on-ball player - the eye test shows it.

The worst part of it is, he's not a good defender to make up for his lack of offense. He wants to be a great defender, and I'm sure he puts in the work, but he physically can't do it. He's being held back by his slow first step (on both ends actually). It's pretty sad to watch. RJ's strong, but he has Evan Fournier burst.

His ceiling is probably a useful role player in 4-5 years if we're being honest. He's not even useful in that role today.

[thebuzzardman]

Read on Twitter

well damn

Interesting. Only I get special mention from DickGrayson, but others post stuff like this.

[thebuzzardman]

Read on Twitter

well damn

I don't put much stock into those charts but in this case they confirm both the eye test and the advanced numbers for RJ.

It's just not going to happen for RJ.

He's wildly inefficient as an off-ball role player - the stats show it.

He's completely incompetent as an on-ball player - the eye test shows it.

The worst part of it is, he's not a good defender to make up for his lack of offense. He wants to be a great defender, and I'm sure he puts in the work, but he physically can't do it. He's being held back by his slow first step (on both ends actually). It's pretty sad to watch. RJ's strong, but he has Evan Fournier burst.

His ceiling is probably a useful role player in 4-5 years if we're being honest. He's not even useful in that role today.

DickGrayson, don't take this RJ slander. Get in here and defend him against Chanel Bomber like you call me out.

[Clyde_Style]

Read on Twitter

well damn

I don't put much stock into those charts but in this case they confirm both the eye test and the advanced numbers for RJ.

It's just not going to happen for RJ.

He's wildly inefficient as an off-ball role player - the stats show it.

He's completely incompetent as an on-ball player - the eye test shows it.

The worst part of it is, he's not a good defender to make up for his lack of offense. He wants to be a great defender, and I'm sure he puts in the work, but he physically can't do it. He's being held back by his slow first step (on both ends actually). It's pretty sad to watch. RJ's strong, but he has Evan Fournier burst.

His ceiling is probably a useful role player in 4-5 years if we're being honest. He's not even useful in that role today.

DickGrayson, don't take this RJ slander. Get in here and defend him against Chanel Bomber like you call me out.

He also called us morons because we had no patience with Kemba

[thebuzzardman]

As soon as I posted in the GT that Burks was being selfish and sloppy he went on a tear. He’d be a borderline star if he could clean up his game a little more, but then he might no longer be himself

I forget the exact arc of his career, but he was drafted pretty high, was a good prospect, but injuries limited his playing time. After that, I'd guess it was a combination of his health and consistency. He's the kind of player a team would want for the bench. Can play at a level of a good starter at times, solid all around game other times, but you get to sit him when he's not consistent.

Rose was probably Thibs pushing for him, but still a great move and contract. Burks is an excellent pickup. Funny how the same FO that thought Rose and Burks were good ideas also thought Fournier and Kemba were the best solution. Then again, I thought it they were a solid move, so what do I know? I get Fournier as a TYPE because of RJ's limitations and the need for an all around wing, but whichever FO guy thought that Fournier and Kemba would be a good fit in the starting lineup together, that guy needs to be fired.

Kemba was an afterthought that became a starphucking centerpiece by dint of availability and relatively low cost. It was a straying from any values the FO was trying to build and a regression into the past. They literally pinched themselves that they could add Kemba’s name to the roster without understanding his career is essentially over. If no one else wanted him, then why did they think he’s a starter? Kemba was the biggest mistake of the off-season followed by overpays to Randle and Fournier.

I’m set on trading Randle. He has to completely re-invent himself and he will never fully succeed, but the Randle of last season is mostly not what this team will need to succeed. Julius came back believing the team revolved around him.

Last night was yet another wake up call. The wake up calls are coming in both losses and in wins. In losses, we see how Kemba cannot defend and is only effective as an actual PG a small percent of the time. Mostly he’s a jump shooter who sometimes gets hot. And in wins Kemba has been a key factor twice at most.

In losses, we see Randle makes everything about himself too often on offense and he pouts over it. He is toxic about it. In wins, he is sometimes a factor, but last night was the most solid case that Randle is not even the most important player on the team, because he is not fully adapted to being anything resembling a team-oriented player.

And if Randle is not the most important player on your team you should not be paying him # 1 or # 2 option money. He’s greatly overpaid and needs to be moved.

Fournier is overpaid, but makes less and that may make him more moveable though I can’t say that’s true. But I do feel he is like a # 3 option on this team if you trade Randle which is fine if he wasn’t paid to be the # 2 option.

So if we could trade Randle, I’d be able to stomach finding a way to utilize Fournier, because, like RJ, he plays better without Randle.

Even RJ is better without Randle.

In Sum, EVERYONE ON THIS TEAM IS BETTER WITHOUT RANDLE

I was down on Randle but in the Suns game he mostly committed to moving the ball but his defense came and went - I could be wrong on the defense - I know the effort was better.
In the Atlanta game he again committed to moving the ball and his defense was good.
IF these are signs that the coaches etc got through to him that he's still a main guy, maybe THE main guy, but he's got to adjust to what unlocks the most Fournier and Kemba have to offer, then that's fine.
These guys are all seasoned pros but it does take time for guys to adjust, especially when it's 2/5ths the starting lineup. And for their careers Kemba, Fournier and Randle all kind of like to have the ball in their hands, being willing passers with there or not.

Feels like every season this stuff sorts out around Christmas for what it's going to be. So we'll probably know more in about 10 -15 games.

[mpharris36]

Read on Twitter

good morning to no one but sham

[Chanel Bomber]

Read on Twitter

well damn

I don't put much stock into those charts but in this case they confirm both the eye test and the advanced numbers for RJ.

It's just not going to happen for RJ.

He's wildly inefficient as an off-ball role player - the stats show it.

He's completely incompetent as an on-ball player - the eye test shows it.

The worst part of it is, he's not a good defender to make up for his lack of offense. He wants to be a great defender, and I'm sure he puts in the work, but he physically can't do it. He's being held back by his slow first step (on both ends actually). It's pretty sad to watch. RJ's strong, but he has Evan Fournier burst.

His ceiling is probably a useful role player in 4-5 years if we're being honest. He's not even useful in that role today.

DickGrayson, don't take this RJ slander. Get in here and defend him against Chanel Bomber like you call me out.

I was going to add that he and Randle are terrible fits for one another.

They have the same weaknesses but they like to play at a different pace. They're definitely not compatible. The question for me is, should the Knicks trade one of them or both of them? I lean towards the latter.

You made a comment last season buzz that I thought was enlightening and changed my perspective a bit.

You mentioned how you were tired of hearing about which players/style of play RJ (or any of our young players) needs to blossom. Basically how the team should help him, instead of how he should help the team. I think this in large part is true. The only players you want to tailor your team around are superstar talents (like Bron or Giannis for instance).

The issue is, RJ is not a superstar talent, and does not warrant having a roster built around him. He should be part of the answer, not part of the question. RJ so far isn't helping for the most part. Even in a limited role.

I'm not even blaming him - by all accounts he's a hard-worker and I love his character - it just is what it is. It's up to the front office to make the right call. Hopefully his career pans out in a way that the right call was to keep him in NY, but that appears highly questionable.

[mpharris36]

Read on Twitter

well damn

I found out that was basically just box score plus minus adjusted for possessions. So a pretty **** stat so this chart is garbino.

[robillionaire]

The average RJ realist:

Here is a chart showing mathematical evidence that RJ is bad.

The typical RJ defender:

[Chanel Bomber]

Read on Twitter

good morning to no one but thibs

[Chanel Bomber]

The average RJ realist:

Here is a chart showing mathematical evidence that RJ is bad.

The typical RJ defender:

Cognitive dissonance