Nazrmohamed wrote:KnicksGadfly wrote:moocow007 wrote:
This. The choice between Randle and RJ was crystal clear and yet, much as with so many other things, people kept wanting to make it complicated. And years later we're still at the "why can't Randle lead the Knicks to anything when it was just him and a bunch of misfitting poop, let's get rid of him cause hes crap."
Nah...I actually didn't want to bring up Randle's record, but it only started when nazr started spouting fake news about Randle and telling us that Randle's record with the Knicks spoke for itself. So then I looked up Randle's impact on the Knicks and lo and behold, Randle has a 166-164. So, like I said, if you're gonna defend Randle, bring the arguments. Check the facts.
Truth be told, I don't use Randle's record to justify anything. I don't use the booing thing...anyone caught up on that is dumb. I think there's a bigger issue with Randle, that has to do entirely with basketball. I'd just like to summarize some of the points Randle supporters are making in this thread.
Randle can be a good defender...when he's motivated.
This is so damning. We've had a lot of excuses for Randle over the years. We blamed the fans (although I tend to think the fans boo because of poor effort first, and even then, it's so stupid if an athlete stops playing defense over booing). We blamed Randle having a child. Guess we're blaming RJ. Blamed the work load he was taking on. Lots of excuses. What are we making excuses for? Lack of effort. It's extremely frustrating during the regular season. If that happened in the postseason? Man...if Josh Hart was playing 48 minutes and getting triple doubles and OG was hobbling and Brunson came back from injury and Randle was still not doing his best?
We are now a team that wants a championship. We are trying to rely on a guy who can be a good defender...if he's motivated...and apparently, there have only been 2 times in the past 5 years he's been really motivated. Once, when he was in the bubble, fighting for a contract, and the team had drafted his replacement. Once, for a short span of 14 games, when we traded for an all NBA defender who we then had to pay 212 million to.
Let's get back on track and make this thread about motivation. Let's talk about motivation. Leave behind the booing. Leave behind RJ. Leave behind his record, even. Tell me I can have a motivated Randle, right now, for the next few years, and let's get that contract signed. I'll support it wholeheartedly. Or have you all given up on that Randle...the Randle we saw in 2020-2021?
A record argument still isn't a bad argument. You're still referencing a .500 plus record on a team that was in the lottery when he got here. There are coaches in the HOF with a record like that. You go to a trash team you buukd up the culture from scratch and then the winning comes later. Randle came to a team that won 17 games the yr before. It's why we got RJ in the first place. RJ matters because we were in this wierd " do we actually wanna win?" mentality around here. I remember when the dig on Randle was that he was just good enough to keep us out of the lottery and we'd rather lose. Just think about that for a second. His critics were critics, because he stopped us from losing. The following yr people were angry we made that play-in. The 37win yr was just a bad yr all around. Julius was surely part of it but it was just universally bad. Everyone got hurt but just at wierd times and I'd like to give a bunch of excuses but my only point is it was enough factors not to blame it all on Randle.
And then the next two seasons we've had Jalen and won games. First though I have a question. Why is it in this town and this town only does a player have to prove he's a good player in the ABSENCE of other good player. I call it the highlander effect. " There can only be one" I watched it with Melo. Literally his who existence was supposed to be spent with a dominant Amare and critics alnost won't even allow you to reference it. Nope, if he was good enough he should do everything we expected with Amare.......without Amare.
So you tell me why Jalens presence becomes something Julius has to feel worse about his success for. It's like this little trump card that people believe they sound wise by spouting. Yes, our mist recent success has allot to do with Jalen. What is Jalen?
- he's an adequate PG. Julius is a power forward. Throughout history the best pairing of players when one of them is a PF is when he has a good PG to make things easy in him. Forget the fact that Jalen is a stud which I'll get to next. We actually go get Julius a competent PG and should feel less of him. It's some sort of handicap. What, should we go back to Payton to prove that he is indeed good. I mean, we did and won 41 games. Was that good enough for you?
- he's a stud player, seperate from his position. So wait, for Julius to gain any respect he must accomplish it without any other good players? This is my highlander effect ail talking about. Why can't we be spoiled. Why can't we be stacked. It's funny, Kevin Durant isn't any less a player because Devin Booker is on his team. Tatum isn't less of a player because he's got Brown
So when I reference his record speaking for himself, I'm just gonna have to double down on that Gadfly. Since Jukius arrived we've had a great culture, we expect to win games and success is measured by how deep we get in the playoffs. He isn't untouchable but the way you describe him makes it sound like some addition by subtraction trades are in order. That he's some detriment. And I just don't believe that. In fact, I think the truth is he's an excellent player save for that last two weeks and ehat we or he needs to fix is " the last two weeks"
The last 2 weeks. It is surprising to me. There are no precursors and funny enough the things that people complain about with Julius aren't even the things that come up. You're complaining about defense and effort and his ancillary stats are great in the playoffs, he just can't hit the side of a barn. And when you expect your star to perform on the biggest stage there aren't any moral victories when it comes to an all NBA player going 7 for 15 or whatever that mess is. I get annoyed too but I'm direct to what it is. You're a star. You gotta score over double teams. You gotta make it happen. In the playoffs Julius doesn't SCORE as he typically SCORES. THATS the problem. It ain't his defense
Look, the only reason I'm referencing Randle's record is because you like him so bad, you keep making these arguments that are false. By the way, that only makes you desperate. You shouldn't need to resort to things like that to argue for your guy. Let me give an example.
Nazrmohamed wrote:Can't tell if you're for or against or being sarcastic. You want him part of this team or not? Cuz all you seemed to show is that we play well with Randle nomatter what group of guys we play with him. And our record since he's been here sortve proves it. I watched him win with Elfrid Peyton, Reggie Bullock, a sophomore RJ and Nerlens Noel. There is no, nor has there ever been a lineup he doesn't fit into. So idk what fit people are talking about.
I'm ready to move on from that record argument because like people have stated, there's a lot of context to sift through. But it just proves how desperate you were to prove Randle was good for this team. You don't need to rely on fake arguments like that. Well, maybe you do, because it's Randle.
Here's another argument that's easily disproven.
Since Jukius arrived we've had a great culture, we expect to win games and success is measured by how deep we get in the playoffs.
If we break down since Randle arrived, we can actually measure his impact on our culture.
First year of Randle's tenure: disaster. The team was awful, but let's just say Randle did not play his part.
Second year: Yes, this is when Randle led the team and did really well.
Third year: This is the low point of Randle's tenure.
Fourth year: Jalen Brunson arrives. And that's basically all we need to say from here
Moreover, you brought up how Randle's defense doesn't matter. It does matter. If you're talking about Randle's effect on the culture, you cannot gloss over why his defense has been terrible:
effort. I'm gonna emphasize that word, because we need to repeat it over and over when it comes to Randle. No person who cares about the culture of our team can excuse that. A leader should be galvanizing the team, should be the one forcing the team to run through the wall, to fight. Randle talks a lot about how he was mentored by Kobe Bryant, but I'm very skeptical of whether those lessons sunk through because Kobe said this: ""When I have the chance to guard Michael Jordan, I want to guard him. I want him. It's the ultimate challenge." That is culture. When Kobe effing Bryant is playing hard ass defense, the whole team better play some defense. When Tim Duncan is taking **** from Greg Popovich and he's willing to listen and get better, the whole team better listen. When Jalen Brunson, as a short guy, is taking charges, that sends a deep signal to the team. When Julius Randle doesn't try, does that send a message to the team or not?
Let me repeat it again because all the Randle fans are trying to obfuscate and stop dealing with the real problem...
effortAs for Tatum, Randle is not on his level...that feels like a very bad comparison. Tatum had his struggles but no one ever accused Tatum of not trying hard. Actually, when he was struggling in the playoffs on offense, he did everything else the team needed him to do. When Randle struggles in the playoffs, he's just a negative everywhere else...It's also very normal to struggle in the playoffs. I mean, Randle takes it to a historical level, but people's numbers generally drop. But for someone like Tatum, he was able to contribute in other ways.
As for Randle and other good players...it's not just Brunson that has enabled Randle's success. It's the fact that we needed Brunson, OG, and Mitch/iHart. We needed Brunson to be the first option...fair enough, Randle struggles, as we saw in the Hawks series...he might not even be a second. But then we needed to get OG, an all defensive player, who we paid 212 million to, to get Randle to play defense for 14 games? And everyone complains about Mitch not being able to do shat on offense and they want Randle to play the 5...but why can't we do that? It's because Mike D'Antoni isn't the coach anymore.
But the deeper problem is this. None of this excuses
**** effort. You don't need any of those players above to give effort. If you can't give effort, how serious are you about winning the chip?
I think you’re trying to make this about how I will only accept Randle if he leads the team to success. Not true…that’s basically a version of the moocow Randle is not Lebron so everyone hates him conspiracy. I said this multiple times though: give me 2020-2021 Randle. That was when he last gave a damn. I know he has flaws. I know he’s not a first option. All this I know. But I loved it when he was fighting. I loved it when he gave a damn. And when he stopped doing all that? I just realized he wasn’t made for New York.
