PG: Embarrassing loss to ORL

[HEZI]

A post from 14 years ago.

No idea who that is or what this even means but if you think I share that opinion then explain to me why I keep asking for a trade to upgrade our depth? I can at least recognize that the bench sucks, you on the other hand want to pretend it’s actually good.

I never said the bench was good, I said it was net positive on the season, period. You're the one that is deflecting from the coach doing the same thing he's done for 15 years. You're ignoring a pattern, and you're using the same exact defenses present in that thread, it's comical at this point.


The bench didn't play much post Randle injury last season, he didn't even want to play Burks until there was no other option and the guy scored 15ppg on 50% in the playoffs. He maintained an 8 man rotation after we traded for Burks and Bojan, he simply swapped out Precious for Mitch. We've been using an 8 man rotation for months, the Wolves and Bulls used 8 man rotations, he is never going to change.

You're completely ignoring history of a man that is playing out yet again right in front of you.

So the bench is not good they are just good in stats that you choose to use to prove that they are actually good

I see what you are doing, it’s slick but I caught you

We haven’t had issues with rotation when we actually had something that resembled a bench

[NoDopeOnSundays]

No idea who that is or what this even means but if you think I share that opinion then explain to me why I keep asking for a trade to upgrade our depth? I can at least recognize that the bench sucks, you on the other hand want to pretend it’s actually good.

I never said the bench was good, I said it was net positive on the season, period. You're the one that is deflecting from the coach doing the same thing he's done for 15 years. You're ignoring a pattern, and you're using the same exact defenses present in that thread, it's comical at this point.


The bench didn't play much post Randle injury last season, he didn't even want to play Burks until there was no other option and the guy scored 15ppg on 50% in the playoffs. He maintained an 8 man rotation after we traded for Burks and Bojan, he simply swapped out Precious for Mitch. We've been using an 8 man rotation for months, the Wolves and Bulls used 8 man rotations, he is never going to change.

You're completely ignoring history of a man that is playing out yet again right in front of you.

So the bench is not good they are just good in stats that you choose to use to prove that they are actually good

I see what you are doing, it’s slick but I caught you

We haven’t had issues with rotation when we actually had something that resembled a bench

The bench is 7th in the league in net rating, people want the bench to play more regardless of whether or not they're good to preserve the health of the starters. Why is this such a difficult concept for you to get? Expand the rotation to include the rookies, so we don't limp into the playoffs yet again.


Our benches have been 19th, 23rd, 27th, 29th and 30th in minutes his 5 years as coach, we have always had short rotations relative to the rest of the NBA. You're trying so hard to defend Tom you're not even making sense.

[Gravy]

The Thibs injury arguments gets redundant, I'm not sure what else to add but I found stats that compare injuries with salary and the Knicks are 25th out of 30 teams in most injuries. https://www.spotrac.com/nba/injured/_/year/2024/view/team
Since Thibs has been here the Knicks are consistently one of the healthiest teams in the league, #1 healthiest in 2020. Last year they had the 10th most injuries and that was the outlier season. With that said Leon needs to get a better bench and Thibs can try to experiment more so the starters can be fresher in 4th quarters.

[kNicksGmen]

The Thibs injury arguments gets redundant, I'm not sure what else to add but I found stats that compare injuries with salary and the Knicks are 25th out of 30 teams in most injuries. https://www.spotrac.com/nba/injured/_/year/2024/view/team
Since Thibs has been here the Knicks are consistently one of the healthiest teams in the league, #1 healthiest in 2020. Last year they had the 10th most injuries and that was the outlier season. With that said Leon needs to get a better bench and Thibs can try to experiment more so the starters can be fresher in 4th quarters.

this is a great examples of numbers lie.

was brunson injured in the playoffs last year? no because he played right? how about hart in game 7?

injuries, wear and tear etc aren't black and white. it's not as simple as just games missed.

[Jalen Bluntson]

The Thibs injury arguments gets redundant, I'm not sure what else to add but I found stats that compare injuries with salary and the Knicks are 25th out of 30 teams in most injuries. https://www.spotrac.com/nba/injured/_/year/2024/view/team
Since Thibs has been here the Knicks are consistently one of the healthiest teams in the league, #1 healthiest in 2020. Last year they had the 10th most injuries and that was the outlier season. With that said Leon needs to get a better bench and Thibs can try to experiment more so the starters can be fresher in 4th quarters.

It isn't entirely about injuries though. This is where the strawman BS falls way short. We are losing games because we are gassed. Teams are actively waiting to attack us because they ALL KNOW we will lose steam. It's a big picture that has proven to be a detriment every single year when the playoffs roll around. It has happened to every team he has ever coached in almost every season. Injuries are only one part of the problem.

He needs to adjust or GTFO

[whocares1]

I don't get why people act like playing the rookies would be such an awful move

Last 4 games we've run an 8-man rotation (exception being the Bulls game where Thibs did sub out with a minute and a half left because we were getting blown out) and we're 1-3. Are they really that bad that they'd make us worse than that?

Worst case scenario is they suck and we win a few less games but get to the postseason a little healthier. Best case scenario is they're good enough to be net neutral players and we win the same amount or more games and still get to the postseason relatively healthier than not playing them

It's a low risk, medium reward move. I don't expect Pac and Kolek to be All Stars, but we have no idea if they're good or not, and if the coaching staff/FO thinks they're not, then that's an indictment on them for drafting them.

Because Thibs rotation is only meant for players that can sustain or build leads. The first thing you have to be able to do to play for him is defend. So immediately Tyler isn’t seen as a viable option. It isn’t like Thibs has never used rookies in his rotations before but they have to be able to defend. The only person I’m confused about not playing is Huk maybe there’s some politics behind the scenes with that decision but every other player not in rotation is just not a Thibs guy.

Who drafts an almost 24 year small point guard with athletic limitations if they want him to be a defender? And why did we have a starting lineup of Brunson, DDV, RJ, Randle and Sims last December if being a good defender was a requirement?

Brunson is an outlier, tho he does contribute defensively with his charges drawn. Hes an offensive engine so Thibs will overlook that. Everyone else you mentioned are “capable” defenders without physical limitations. They can play decent to good defense depending on their effort. Kolek is limited defensively and until he works on his anticipation skills, opposing teams can key him in as a guy to take advantage of which is what Thibs hates about role players that can’t defend.

Also the FO and Thibs do not always see eye to eye. Fournier, Obi, and Kemba among others are guys that Thibs hated playing and eventually benched them.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Because Thibs rotation is only meant for players that can sustain or build leads. The first thing you have to be able to do to play for him is defend. So immediately Tyler isn’t seen as a viable option. It isn’t like Thibs has never used rookies in his rotations before but they have to be able to defend. The only person I’m confused about not playing is Huk maybe there’s some politics behind the scenes with that decision but every other player not in rotation is just not a Thibs guy.

Who drafts an almost 24 year small point guard with athletic limitations if they want him to be a defender? And why did we have a starting lineup of Brunson, DDV, RJ, Randle and Sims last December if being a good defender was a requirement?

Brunson is an outlier, tho he does contribute defensively with his charges drawn. Hes an offensive engine so Thibs will overlook that. Everyone else you mentioned are “capable” defenders without physical limitations. They can play decent to good defense depending on their effort. Kolek is limited defensively and until he works on his anticipation skills, opposing teams can key him in as a guy to take advantage of which is what Thibs hates about role players that can’t defend.

Kolek is so small though. Not just short. Physically he is diminutive compared to most. His defense may always be a problem. Not sure why they drafted and paid him like he will play.

[MrDollarBills]

I don't think anyone is remotely suggesting that Payne, Precious, Shamet, Sims, Kolek and Dadiet are great players. All of them are highly flawed, and two of them are inexperienced.

But are they so bad that they can't help carry the load a few mins here and there on a night at home where KAT is out, guys are tired and against an Orlando team that is decimated? I don't believe that.

Look around the league. Are the names on other rosters who are 8th, 10th, 11th on the roster that much better? No. No one has a bench that has world beaters past their top 6 to 7. You gotta lean in and get minutes from where you can with the personnel available. It's on the staff to prepare guys 1 thru 15 to play and be ready.

I mean unless every team that Thibs had in Chicago and Minnesota just had no NBA talent outside of their starting 5, this is a common, reoccurring issue with his teams.

I'm not calling for load management. But shave the damn minutes and stagger the line ups so guys aren't logging nearly 24 minutes by half time. Is the goal to win 100% of regular season games at all cost or is it getting to the playoffs to win a championship?

Winning the 1st three quarters only for everyone to gas out in the 4th is not a winning solution and we now have to worry about Karl's knee all season

[HEZI]

I never said the bench was good, I said it was net positive on the season, period. You're the one that is deflecting from the coach doing the same thing he's done for 15 years. You're ignoring a pattern, and you're using the same exact defenses present in that thread, it's comical at this point.


The bench didn't play much post Randle injury last season, he didn't even want to play Burks until there was no other option and the guy scored 15ppg on 50% in the playoffs. He maintained an 8 man rotation after we traded for Burks and Bojan, he simply swapped out Precious for Mitch. We've been using an 8 man rotation for months, the Wolves and Bulls used 8 man rotations, he is never going to change.

You're completely ignoring history of a man that is playing out yet again right in front of you.

So the bench is not good they are just good in stats that you choose to use to prove that they are actually good

I see what you are doing, it’s slick but I caught you

We haven’t had issues with rotation when we actually had something that resembled a bench

The bench is 7th in the league in net rating, people want the bench to play more regardless of whether or not they're good to preserve the health of the starters. Why is this such a difficult concept for you to get? Expand the rotation to include the rookies, so we don't limp into the playoffs yet again.


Our benches have been 19th, 23rd, 27th, 29th and 30th in minutes his 5 years as coach, we have always had short rotations relative to the rest of the NBA. You're trying so hard to defend Tom you're not even making sense.

I don’t care about the rating, you yourself can’t admit the bench is good so that automatically makes your whole net rating argument irrelevant. You are implying the bench is good thus the net rating, but you just can’t say they are good because you know they suck and you watch them and see that they suck so that’s why you are hanging on to that worthless stat for dear life because it’s all you have. Meanwhile we can all watch and see how terrible they are and how they don’t help at all. Just admit you don’t care about our record and how many games we lose, but don’t try to convince me that this weak ass bench is helping us get into the playoffs. The more they play the more at risk we are of not even making it in or needing to scratch and claw to just sneak in. If that’s what you prefer, cool, that’s our difference in opinion. You want us to hover around .500 and be a game or two out of 10th seed, cool just say so.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

So the bench is not good they are just good in stats that you choose to use to prove that they are actually good

I see what you are doing, it’s slick but I caught you

We haven’t had issues with rotation when we actually had something that resembled a bench

The bench is 7th in the league in net rating, people want the bench to play more regardless of whether or not they're good to preserve the health of the starters. Why is this such a difficult concept for you to get? Expand the rotation to include the rookies, so we don't limp into the playoffs yet again.


Our benches have been 19th, 23rd, 27th, 29th and 30th in minutes his 5 years as coach, we have always had short rotations relative to the rest of the NBA. You're trying so hard to defend Tom you're not even making sense.

I don’t care about the rating.

Embarrassing, flat out shameful. Tom is perfect, he does no wrong, save the long post. That's all I will associate with you from now on, Tom is infallible and when a player's knee disintegrates after 48 minutes without a rest it's their own fault, I mean you already blamed KAT for getting hurt.

[Context]

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[Gravy]

The Thibs injury arguments gets redundant, I'm not sure what else to add but I found stats that compare injuries with salary and the Knicks are 25th out of 30 teams in most injuries. https://www.spotrac.com/nba/injured/_/year/2024/view/team
Since Thibs has been here the Knicks are consistently one of the healthiest teams in the league, #1 healthiest in 2020. Last year they had the 10th most injuries and that was the outlier season. With that said Leon needs to get a better bench and Thibs can try to experiment more so the starters can be fresher in 4th quarters.

this is a great examples of numbers lie.

was brunson injured in the playoffs last year? no because he played right? how about hart in game 7?

injuries, wear and tear etc aren't black and white. it's not as simple as just games missed.

Its comparing teams injuries, the Knicks dont exist in a vacuum. The Celtics had an important starter KP miss almost the whole season and the playoffs last year but they still won because they had that much talent. Players will play through injuries all the time on other teams. Our team has no depth so any injury will be felt more even though its less than most teams. The Thunder's backup center is IHart, ours is Jericho Sims

[DOT]

Look around the league. Are the names on other rosters who are 8th, 10th, 11th on the roster that much better? No. No one has a bench that has world beaters past their top 6 to 7. You gotta lean in and get minutes from where you can with the personnel available. It's on the staff to prepare guys 1 thru 15 to play and be ready.

10th man on the Thunder is Ajay Mitchell (or Kenrich Williams depending on how you factor Chet's injury) at 17 mpg

10th man for Cleveland is Ty Jerome at 18 mpg (or Sam Merrill at 19 mpg with Max Strus now back in the rotation)

F*ckin' the Celtics have both Luke Kornet and Neemis Queta playing 16-17 mpg

We only have 7 players getting more than 16 mpg. These guys are really saying that those guys I listed are so far above anyone who we could've gotten for our bench, that there's no way to find those types of players for us.

[TheGreenArrow]

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Deep down inside Folksssssssss we all know this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It’s the truth unfortunately!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MrDollarBills]

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Full disclosure, Tommy Beer is not my secret identity despite him echoing my sentiment word for f*cking word.

Is the goal to win a championship or not?

[thebuzzardman]

The bench was excellent

[MrDollarBills]

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Deep down inside Folksssssssss we all know this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It’s the truth unfortunately!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm listening to the show and Alan brought up some good points especially about Dadiet, Kolek, and Hukporti. I don't think anyone wants them playing 20+ mins.

However I disagree. I think this is indeed a championship team...at 100%.

Tom and Leon need to figure out how to get the best 6 guys on this roster to the end game. Right now, at this rate, they aren't gonna get there logging these minutes.

[thebuzzardman]

Read on Twitter

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Deep down inside Folksssssssss we all know this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It’s the truth unfortunately!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trade Brundle

[thebuzzardman]

Read on Twitter

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Deep down inside Folksssssssss we all know this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It’s the truth unfortunately!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm listening to the show and Alan brought up some good points especially about Dadiet, Kolek, and Hukporti. I don't think anyone wants them playing 20+ mins.

However I disagree. I think this is indeed a championship team...at 100%.

Tom and Leon need to figure out how to get the best 6 guys on this roster to the end game. Right now, at this rate, they aren't gonna get there logging these minutes.

It's not even a tier one playoff team.

Bronze treadmill

[HEZI]

I don't think anyone is remotely suggesting that Payne, Precious, Shamet, Sims, Kolek and Dadiet are great players. All of them are highly flawed, and two of them are inexperienced.

But are they so bad that they can't help carry the load a few mins here and there on a night at home where KAT is out, guys are tired and against an Orlando team that is decimated? I don't believe that.

Look around the league. Are the names on other rosters who are 8th, 10th, 11th on the roster that much better? No. No one has a bench that has world beaters past their top 6 to 7. You gotta lean in and get minutes from where you can with the personnel available. It's on the staff to prepare guys 1 thru 15 to play and be ready.

I mean unless every team that Thibs had in Chicago and Minnesota just had no NBA talent outside of their starting 5, this is a common, reoccurring issue with his teams.

I'm not calling for load management. But shave the damn minutes and stagger the line ups so guys aren't logging nearly 24 minutes by half time. Is the goal to win 100% of regular season games at all cost or is it getting to the playoffs to win a championship?

Winning the 1st three quarters only for everyone to gas out in the 4th is not a winning solution and we now have to worry about Karl's knee all season

A few minutes here and there?

Sims played 29 minutes last night
Achiuwa played 22 minutes last night
Shamet played 21 minutes last night
Cam Payne played 12 minutes last night

Not even sure what you are asking for at this point, more minutes?

Those are all fresh legs and what exactly did they provide last night? I think you answered your own question