PG: Knicks vs ATL

[robillionaire]

Maybe the KAT stuff but that is ultimately complaining about consistently having him in drop coverage. Which he isn't good at doing. We all see it. You can see it, I can see it. But we continue to run drop.

The Hart and Brunson stuff is for show on your post so I won't address that.

I know you don't mean it but it almost makes it sounds like KAT is a switch and chase center. He can't do that either. Unless Thibs starts mixing it up with a zone or getting guards to fight through with a hedge, which he hasn't done in basically his entire career.

KAT is far better at switching or hedge and recovering than drop. He just is a fish out of water with drop he doesn't have good instincts defensively which is what drop requires. When to close the gap on the ball handler and when to sink back to the roller...he get caught in between to often.

KAT was playing the 4 mostly the last 2 years so he was guarding perimeter players more so than ever. So why is the fear that he can't switch onto perimeter players more? He wasn't playing the 5 last year.

HOU doesn't play drop with Sengun...they know he can't do it.

Its not going to be perfect...I'm not expecting KAT to turn into BAM guarding perimeter players...but its far better than just letting teams go 2 on 1 with him in drop and mikal chasing behind. Let KAT guard one guy...not worry about 2 guys.

We might be seeing some more of that here and there if Mitch ever plays

[Knicksfan1992]

Thibs has mixed and matched defensive coverages plenty this year. This narrative that he just doesn't switch off of drop is bonkers tbh lol.

Also, KAT seemed pretty gassed last night (Here comes the minute police ). Constantly switching is only going to exacerbate that issue because he's going to have to guard Trae nonstop in that scenario.

The answer simply could be that KAT, on the whole, is a poor defender no matter what. Especially when he's tasked to anchor at the 5 and no scheme or adjustment can really change that fact. The point is that KAT's offense just heavily outweighs his shortcomings on defense and you live with the bad.

[nedleeds]

Maybe the KAT stuff but that is ultimately complaining about consistently having him in drop coverage. Which he isn't good at doing. We all see it. You can see it, I can see it. But we continue to run drop.

The Hart and Brunson stuff is for show on your post so I won't address that.

I know you don't mean it but it almost makes it sounds like KAT is a switch and chase center. He can't do that either. Unless Thibs starts mixing it up with a zone or getting guards to fight through with a hedge, which he hasn't done in basically his entire career.

So why is the fear that he can't switch onto perimeter players more? He wasn't playing the 5 last year.

I agree with you. And you know the answer to the question, its not fear its a pale stubborn orc. But yes it's simply impossible to be worse than giving up 137 to a team that has been giving away players for 3 months.

[GONYK]

Thibs has mixed and matched defensive coverages plenty this year. This narrative that he just doesn't switch off of drop is bonkers tbh lol.

Also, KAT seemed pretty gassed last night (Here comes the minute police ). Constantly switching is only going to exacerbate that issue because he's going to have to guard Trae nonstop in that scenario.

The answer simply could be that KAT, on the whole, is a poor defender no matter what. Especially when he's tasked to anchor at the 5 and no scheme or adjustment can really change that fact. The point is that KAT's offense just heavily outweighs his shortcomings on defense and you live with the bad.

The prevailing narrative that Thibs hasn't made any defensive adjustments, rotation adjustments and is a terrible offensive coach who doesn't run sets is more stubborn and undeterred in the face of evidence than everyone claims Thibs to be

[nedleeds]

I know you don't mean it but it almost makes it sounds like KAT is a switch and chase center. He can't do that either. Unless Thibs starts mixing it up with a zone or getting guards to fight through with a hedge, which he hasn't done in basically his entire career.

KAT is far better at switching or hedge and recovering than drop. He just is a fish out of water with drop he doesn't have good instincts defensively which is what drop requires. When to close the gap on the ball handler and when to sink back to the roller...he get caught in between to often.

KAT was playing the 4 mostly the last 2 years so he was guarding perimeter players more so than ever. So why is the fear that he can't switch onto perimeter players more? He wasn't playing the 5 last year.

HOU doesn't play drop with Sengun...they know he can't do it.

Its not going to be perfect...I'm not expecting KAT to turn into BAM guarding perimeter players...but its far better than just letting teams go 2 on 1 with him in drop and mikal chasing behind. Let KAT guard one guy...not worry about 2 guys.

We might be seeing some more of that here and there if Mitch ever plays

When Mitch wasn't fat and injured he was great in space against a switch. There was a point where he was blocking more 3s per 36 than anyone in history.

[mpharris36]

I know you don't mean it but it almost makes it sounds like KAT is a switch and chase center. He can't do that either. Unless Thibs starts mixing it up with a zone or getting guards to fight through with a hedge, which he hasn't done in basically his entire career.

KAT is far better at switching or hedge and recovering than drop. He just is a fish out of water with drop he doesn't have good instincts defensively which is what drop requires. When to close the gap on the ball handler and when to sink back to the roller...he get caught in between to often.

KAT was playing the 4 mostly the last 2 years so he was guarding perimeter players more so than ever. So why is the fear that he can't switch onto perimeter players more? He wasn't playing the 5 last year.

HOU doesn't play drop with Sengun...they know he can't do it.

Its not going to be perfect...I'm not expecting KAT to turn into BAM guarding perimeter players...but its far better than just letting teams go 2 on 1 with him in drop and mikal chasing behind. Let KAT guard one guy...not worry about 2 guys.

We might be seeing some more of that here and there if Mitch ever plays

But that isn't an excuse not to do it now...all of a sudden if KAT plays the 4 Thibs is now comfortable with KAT guarding on the perimeter....just do it now...

Are we really worried about Mikal having to switch onto the big? How many bigs even play in the post on a switch? Yes you lose some rebounding with KAT on perimeter but you get the missed shot I will live with Hart or OG crashing the glass for now.

[robillionaire]

KAT is far better at switching or hedge and recovering than drop. He just is a fish out of water with drop he doesn't have good instincts defensively which is what drop requires. When to close the gap on the ball handler and when to sink back to the roller...he get caught in between to often.

KAT was playing the 4 mostly the last 2 years so he was guarding perimeter players more so than ever. So why is the fear that he can't switch onto perimeter players more? He wasn't playing the 5 last year.

HOU doesn't play drop with Sengun...they know he can't do it.

Its not going to be perfect...I'm not expecting KAT to turn into BAM guarding perimeter players...but its far better than just letting teams go 2 on 1 with him in drop and mikal chasing behind. Let KAT guard one guy...not worry about 2 guys.

We might be seeing some more of that here and there if Mitch ever plays

When Mitch wasn't fat and injured he was great in space against a switch. There was a point where he was blocking more 3s per 36 than anyone in history.

Yeah but as you point out that player might not exist anymore. IMO his rookie and 2nd years were his prime and he’s been on a steady decline ever since. I miss the athletic freak. They say he’s lost weight though but idk.

Not looking forward to more painful displays of his 30% ft shooting. Odds he’s worked on that in the past year? Slim

[mpharris36]

Thibs has mixed and matched defensive coverages plenty this year. This narrative that he just doesn't switch off of drop is bonkers tbh lol.

Also, KAT seemed pretty gassed last night (Here comes the minute police ). Constantly switching is only going to exacerbate that issue because he's going to have to guard Trae nonstop in that scenario.

The answer simply could be that KAT, on the whole, is a poor defender no matter what. Especially when he's tasked to anchor at the 5 and no scheme or adjustment can really change that fact. The point is that KAT's offense just heavily outweighs his shortcomings on defense and you live with the bad.

Yes he's sprinkles in some different defense. We typically don't run a full switch until the very end of the game. Its a majority of drop. We do run some hedge and and recover...and we never run a matchup zone...thibs will never be caught running a zone.

So to make a point...I don't think anyone is saying we are running 100% drop with KAT...we aren't...but its a far far far majority of our "shell" is drop coverage.

[mpharris36]

Thibs has mixed and matched defensive coverages plenty this year. This narrative that he just doesn't switch off of drop is bonkers tbh lol.

Also, KAT seemed pretty gassed last night (Here comes the minute police ). Constantly switching is only going to exacerbate that issue because he's going to have to guard Trae nonstop in that scenario.

The answer simply could be that KAT, on the whole, is a poor defender no matter what. Especially when he's tasked to anchor at the 5 and no scheme or adjustment can really change that fact. The point is that KAT's offense just heavily outweighs his shortcomings on defense and you live with the bad.

The prevailing narrative that Thibs hasn't made any defensive adjustments, rotation adjustments and is a terrible offensive coach who doesn't run sets is more stubborn and undeterred in the face of evidence than everyone claims Thibs to be

I would say the narrative at least what I have seen from people questioning thibs is that he is a ok to good HC (not great and we could have legit improvement with adjustments). He is late to adjust. He plays his guys too many minutes which us effects us late in close games where guys don't make the extra rotation or or get to loose balls they typically do earlier in the game because asking someone to play a clean +40 minutes on both ends with the way the pace of the game is nowadays is nearly impossible.

And about the offensive scheme...I mean we don't really run man sets...its Brunson/KAT P&R action for a majority of the game. Its the reason why Mikal right now is just an afterthought because nothing is getting run for him. When Brunson and KAT have it going I don't mind it..but Mikal goes multiple possessions in a row without toughing the ball.

[K_ick_God]

Read on Twitter

So I was wrong.

He doesn't feel like he's that hard to beat off the dribble but obv he's long enough to disrupt.

I am concerned and troubled at how he doesn't seem to be part of the offense. Precious's cutting to the rim for dunks seems to be a bigger part of our offense at times than what MB is doing. Mikal did hit a big corner 3.

[RHODEY]

[GONYK]

Thibs has mixed and matched defensive coverages plenty this year. This narrative that he just doesn't switch off of drop is bonkers tbh lol.

Also, KAT seemed pretty gassed last night (Here comes the minute police ). Constantly switching is only going to exacerbate that issue because he's going to have to guard Trae nonstop in that scenario.

The answer simply could be that KAT, on the whole, is a poor defender no matter what. Especially when he's tasked to anchor at the 5 and no scheme or adjustment can really change that fact. The point is that KAT's offense just heavily outweighs his shortcomings on defense and you live with the bad.

The prevailing narrative that Thibs hasn't made any defensive adjustments, rotation adjustments and is a terrible offensive coach who doesn't run sets is more stubborn and undeterred in the face of evidence than everyone claims Thibs to be

I would say the narrative at least what I have seen from people questioning thibs is that he is a ok to good HC (not great and we could have legit improvement with adjustments). He is late to adjust. He plays his guys too many minutes which us effects us late in close games where guys don't make the extra rotation or or get to loose balls they typically do earlier in the game because asking someone to play a clean +40 minutes on both ends with the way the pace of the game is nowadays is nearly impossible.

The minutes thing is whatever. I don't really have an interest in that because nobody knows what the perfect amount of mins for each player is. I think both sides of the argument have a case there.

On the other hand, I'd say the notion that Thibs is this terrible archaic offensive coach is just as prevalent and I think there is a mountain of evidence that that is not the case. He may even be a better offensive coach than defensive one at this stage.

I didn't see your edit.

I don't care how much Mikal touches the ball, especially since I don't think anything is stopping him from getting more involved. He's a better offensive player than OG, but OG has no problem getting his. Mikal is averaging 18ppg. Seems like he's contributing well enough.

At the end of the day we have a top 2 offense in the league after having a top 7 offense last year with very different personnel. We've had more 30 assist games this season than we've had in like 20 years. We're on pace to have the 3rd most efficient offense in NBA history. Thibs is doing something right and it goes beyond spamming PnR.

[Knicksfan1992]

Thibs has mixed and matched defensive coverages plenty this year. This narrative that he just doesn't switch off of drop is bonkers tbh lol.

Also, KAT seemed pretty gassed last night (Here comes the minute police ). Constantly switching is only going to exacerbate that issue because he's going to have to guard Trae nonstop in that scenario.

The answer simply could be that KAT, on the whole, is a poor defender no matter what. Especially when he's tasked to anchor at the 5 and no scheme or adjustment can really change that fact. The point is that KAT's offense just heavily outweighs his shortcomings on defense and you live with the bad.

Yes he's sprinkles in some different defense. We typically don't run a full switch until the very end of the game. Its a majority of drop. We do run some hedge and and recover...and we never run a matchup zone...thibs will never be caught running a zone.

So to make a point...I don't think anyone is saying we are running 100% drop with KAT...we aren't...but its a far far far majority of our "shell" is drop coverage.

Yeah I agree Thibs will never run a zone but you just basically explained how 99% of NBA games go so I'm just wondering what everyone's big deal is here then

Every team has their base coverages they run throughout the year. Maybe some games they'll try something new to just have reps with a different coverage and obviously crunch time is where you'll have wrinkles thrown in.

Not saying you are a culprit of this but, why the majority can't grasp that every regular season game is not treated like a playoff game as far as schemes and adjustments go is beyond me...

[mpharris36]

The prevailing narrative that Thibs hasn't made any defensive adjustments, rotation adjustments and is a terrible offensive coach who doesn't run sets is more stubborn and undeterred in the face of evidence than everyone claims Thibs to be

I would say the narrative at least what I have seen from people questioning thibs is that he is a ok to good HC (not great and we could have legit improvement with adjustments). He is late to adjust. He plays his guys too many minutes which us effects us late in close games where guys don't make the extra rotation or or get to loose balls they typically do earlier in the game because asking someone to play a clean +40 minutes on both ends with the way the pace of the game is nowadays is nearly impossible.

The minutes thing is whatever. I don't really have an interest in that because nobody knows what the perfect amount of mins for each player is. I think both sides of the argument have a case there.

On the other hand, I'd say the notion that Thibs is this terrible archaic offensive coach is just as prevalent and I think there is a mountain of evidence that that is not the case. He may even be a better offensive coach than defensive one at this stage.

I didn't see your edit.

I don't care how much Mikal touches the ball, especially since I don't think anything is stopping him from getting more involved. He's a better offensive player than OG, but OG has no problem getting his.

At the end of the day we have a top 2 offense in the league after having a top 7 offense last year with very different personnel. We've had more 30 assist games this season than we've had in like 20 years. Thibs is doing something right and it goes beyond spamming PnR.

I don't think Thibs is archaic with his offense...actually the opposite. I just don't think he's very much involved with the offense outside of the general philosphy to space the floor and make good rim reads. Jeff Teague has basically said it on his podcast. He lets the players player and make the reads and decisions. I think most of the offense is just Brunson/KAT doing there thing. When Randle here it was basically ISO randle and make him make the decisions with the ball. I guess in that theory you give Thibs credit for "getting out of the way" of his players and let the players play. But there have been multiple players that have went on the record and enjoyed playing for thibs saying he doesn't really call plays and allows a lot of freedom...the offense is a read and react and that requires a lot of decision making on brunson or whoever has the ball and the rest of the team is personal and spacing.

Brunson is brunson
KAT is KAT

they will find ways to score regardless of the coach IMO.

Where I think he has a lot of impact is on the defense...and I have most of my concerns there.

[GONYK]

I would say the narrative at least what I have seen from people questioning thibs is that he is a ok to good HC (not great and we could have legit improvement with adjustments). He is late to adjust. He plays his guys too many minutes which us effects us late in close games where guys don't make the extra rotation or or get to loose balls they typically do earlier in the game because asking someone to play a clean +40 minutes on both ends with the way the pace of the game is nowadays is nearly impossible.

The minutes thing is whatever. I don't really have an interest in that because nobody knows what the perfect amount of mins for each player is. I think both sides of the argument have a case there.

On the other hand, I'd say the notion that Thibs is this terrible archaic offensive coach is just as prevalent and I think there is a mountain of evidence that that is not the case. He may even be a better offensive coach than defensive one at this stage.

I didn't see your edit.

I don't care how much Mikal touches the ball, especially since I don't think anything is stopping him from getting more involved. He's a better offensive player than OG, but OG has no problem getting his.

At the end of the day we have a top 2 offense in the league after having a top 7 offense last year with very different personnel. We've had more 30 assist games this season than we've had in like 20 years. Thibs is doing something right and it goes beyond spamming PnR.

I don't think Thibs is archaic with his offense...actually the opposite. I just don't think he's very much involved with the offense outside of the general philosphy to space the floor and make good rim reads. Jeff Teague has basically said it on his podcast. He lets the players player and make the reads and decisions. I think most of the offense is just Brunson/KAT doing there thing. When Randle here it was basically ISO randle and make him make the decisions with the ball. I guess in that theory you give Thibs credit for "getting out of the way" of his players and let the players play. But there have been multiple players that have went on the record and enjoyed playing for thibs saying he doesn't really call plays and allows a lot of freedom...the offense is a read and react and that requires a lot of decision making on brunson or whoever has the ball and the rest of the team is personal and spacing.

Brunson is brunson
KAT is KAT

they will find ways to score regardless of the coach IMO.

Where I think he has a lot of impact is on the defense...and I have most of my concerns there.

I think Thibs puts a premium on players executing the game plan on both ends. I'd argue there's freedom given on both ends, which is why where many see poor gameplan, I see poor execution more often than not. Thibs hammers the concepts in their heads and prepares them better than any coach (this is almost the universal feedback on him) and then leaves them to execute.

I don't see our personnel consistently executing any defensive game plan that won't leave a major gap on the perimeter or the interior. At least not until Mitch comes back, because much of it is due to KAT's poor rim protection.

[GettinitDone]

Wow it would be a crazy game to watch but I didn't, dang work

Really wanna see KAT and JB play like this vs Celtics/ Thunder

Don't like the heavy mins for the starters

Hope Precious keeps having these big games, keeps building his confidence, we need him to be at his best for the playoffs

[K_ick_God]

Didn't even realize KAT was 7-10 from deep. He even hit that corner 3. But all seemed overshadowed by the fact that the team was struggling to survive late.

[Knick4Real]

Didn't even realize KAT was 7-10 from deep. He even hit that corner 3. But all seemed overshadowed by the fact that the team was struggling to survive late.

If KAT hadn't made that costly turnover during the final seconds, fans would have remembered him shooting lights out from 3.

[mpharris36]

Thibs has mixed and matched defensive coverages plenty this year. This narrative that he just doesn't switch off of drop is bonkers tbh lol.

Also, KAT seemed pretty gassed last night (Here comes the minute police ). Constantly switching is only going to exacerbate that issue because he's going to have to guard Trae nonstop in that scenario.

The answer simply could be that KAT, on the whole, is a poor defender no matter what. Especially when he's tasked to anchor at the 5 and no scheme or adjustment can really change that fact. The point is that KAT's offense just heavily outweighs his shortcomings on defense and you live with the bad.

Yes he's sprinkles in some different defense. We typically don't run a full switch until the very end of the game. Its a majority of drop. We do run some hedge and and recover...and we never run a matchup zone...thibs will never be caught running a zone.

So to make a point...I don't think anyone is saying we are running 100% drop with KAT...we aren't...but its a far far far majority of our "shell" is drop coverage.

Yeah I agree Thibs will never run a zone but you just basically explained how 99% of NBA games go so I'm just wondering what everyone's big deal is here then

Every team has their base coverages they run throughout the year. Maybe some games they'll try something new to just have reps with a different coverage and obviously crunch time is where you'll have wrinkles thrown in.

Not saying you are a culprit of this but, why the majority can't grasp that every regular season game is not treated like a playoff game as far as schemes and adjustments go is beyond me...

We run the same thing in the playoffs too. When Indy hit there 3's we lost when Indy missed there 3's we won. I would rather have more variation to take something away.

And no not every team runs a shell drop the entire game. Denver does because they don't want Jokic switching. Philly would with Embiid because he can't move. And then other rim protecting big do as well.

just look at the metrics.

The knicks are in the 62nd percentile in guarding the roller 1.06 PPP. Very focused on the paint.

The knicks are in the 13th percentile in guarding the ball handler 0.94 PPP. 5th worst in the NBA.

The knicks are in the 3rd percentile in guarding spot up shooters 1.11 PPP. 2nd worst in the NBA.

The knicks are in the 83rd percentile in guarding ISO's .84 PPP. 6th best in the league (mainly due the infrequency of teams ISO's vs us because they know we won't switch often)

For example a team like HOU who has a non defensive center who switches a lot more then us and blitzes is:

24th percentile in guarding the roller 1.14 PPP (8th worst)

90th percentile in guarding the ball handler .85 PPP (4th best)

93rd percentile in guarding spot up shooters .98 PPP (2nd best)

17th percentile in guarding ISO's .95 PPP (6th worse)

Now can you tell me is there a big difference between the aptitude of KAT and Sengun on defense? Or do you think that is more philosophy based?

Its philosophy driven. We both don't have rim protecting bigs but we run more drop and switch less which helps us guard the paint and the roller better. And HOU switches more is will to give up more pts in the paint to the roll man and will live with bad Isolations from time to time because its still not an efficient shot.

One team is top 5 in the league in DEF and we are close to 20th....and we have a better record because our offense is so much better because we have so much more offensive talent.

Sure they have guys like Amen, Brooks, and Tari....we have OG, Bridges, and Hart...maybe there is some different in defensive talent but the difference from top 5 to nearly 20th? both with a poor rim protecting center? Nah that disparity screams philosophy to me.

[Gravy]

The Thibs hive has no shame

We are just here to balance out all the

*Hart airballs a 3* "What is Thibs doing!"
*KAT gets dunked on* "F*** Thibs"
*Brunson turnover* "Where's Kolek? I'm Done with Thibs!!"

type posts

I mean if you are just making up thibs hate then sure. But I don't see most of this ever said.

Maybe the KAT stuff but that is ultimately complaining about consistently having him in drop coverage. Which he isn't good at doing. We all see it. You can see it, I can see it. But we continue to run drop.

The Hart and Brunson stuff is for show on your post so I won't address that.

I dont see a scheme that can fix KATs defense at center, he is really bad. I'm sure Minny tried different things until they had no choice but to get Gobert(which was panned at the time).

Its like when we had Kemba Cam and Fournier in the rotation our defense was terrible and people were blaming schemes, but then Thibs benched them put in guys that could defend and we became good at defense again. Maybe we cant have a good defense with him at center, its like having Randle at center.