KNICKS - Houston PG

[Deeeez Knicks]

Knicks need to sweeten the pot for LaVine:

• Obi Toppin
• Immanuel Quickley
• RJ Barrett
• Frank Ntilikina (restricted free agent)
• Kevin Knox
• 2021 Detroit Pistons 2nd (#31)
• 2022 New York Knicks 1st
• 2023 Dallas Mavericks 1st (Top 10 Protected)
• 2024 New York Knicks 1st round pick
• 2026 New York Knicks 1st round pick
• 2028 New York Knicks 1st round pick

There. That might get it done.

Knicks will be so good in 2024-2030 that their picks will be like 2nd rounders.

the worst part of this deal is that we still keep Payton

[3toheadmelo]

Jrue holiday has a PO this season. Let’s say he declines it..


Jrue Holiday/Quickley
Zach Lavine/Rose
RJ Barrett/ Burks
Julius Randle/Gafford
Mitchell Robinson/Noel

[NoDopeOnSundays]

How you like Randle’s excellent performance again vs the Rockets?

You still on Randle moratorium , we talking about you giving away truck loads of assets for LaVine right now when he's gonna be a free agent in 2022.

Good teams give away picks cause they don't need em, we're not a good team yet.

It’s not really a lot though. Just 2 first round picks basically. And we still have our picks for this year. If we get Lavine, our future picks won’t be that good imo.

I’m not really trying to wait another season to get him. Let’s get after him now while we have the assets, before some other team does. The sooner we get Lavine, the better our team will look. And that means we’ll attract other good players to the Knicks.

That's our 2020 pick in Obi, so 3 first rounders, and a 2nd rounder which is pretty much the equivalent of a first rounder. The 2024 pick is far out enough that I wouldn't even want to trade that either, because who really knows if we'll be better than the Bulls 3 years from now.


Waiting another season is the most logical choice, he's just not good enough to be giving up all that for. I don't understand the rush either, the top of the east is young enough that you making a mistake in the build will really have a long lasting impact. Lets keep it real, a Randle/LaVine core isn't putting fear into anyones heart in the East, think about a playoff matchup with us against the Sixers, Bucks, Nets or Celtics, we wouldn't have the best player in any of those series and outside of the Nets the cores on those teams are still pretty young. You'd need to rely on free agency to bring in the guy to be better than both of them, and that guy isn't in any of the next 2-3 free agency classes. You can't trade for that guy because we'll be blowing most of our draft capital on getting LaVine too.

[Clyde_Style]

You still on Randle moratorium , we talking about you giving away truck loads of assets for LaVine right now when he's gonna be a free agent in 2022.

Good teams give away picks cause they don't need em, we're not a good team yet.

It’s not really a lot though. Just 2 first round picks basically. And we still have our picks for this year. If we get Lavine, our future picks won’t be that good imo.

I’m not really trying to wait another season to get him. Let’s get after him now while we have the assets, before some other team does. The sooner we get Lavine, the better our team will look. And that means we’ll attract other good players to the Knicks.

That's our 2020 pick in Obi, so 3 first rounders, and a 2nd rounder which is pretty much the equivalent of a first rounder. The 2024 pick is far out enough that I wouldn't even want to trade that either, because who really knows if we'll be better than the Bulls 3 years from now.


Waiting another season is the most logical choice, he's just not good enough to be giving up all that for. I don't understand the rush either, the top of the east is young enough that you making a mistake in the build will really have a long lasting impact. Lets keep it real, a Randle/LaVine core isn't putting fear into anyones heart in the East, think about a playoff matchup with us against the Sixers, Bucks, Nets or Celtics, we wouldn't have the best player in any of those series and outside of the Nets the cores on those teams are still pretty young. You'd need to rely on free agency to bring in the guy to be better than both of them, and that guy isn't in any of the next 2-3 free agency classes. You can't trade for that guy because we'll be blowing most of our draft capital on getting LaVine too.

We throw the bag now we're screwed basically. This is when you sit tight and draft well with your multiple picks. Trading away multiple firsts now is literally suicide and a fast ticket to mediocrity. Get too thirsty for one-way scorers and you miss the big picture.

We need to grow a better team first before we engineer the bigger deals that put us into contention. We are definitely on that path, but have not gotten to the next plateau that provides the foundation for becoming a contender.

[3toheadmelo]

You still on Randle moratorium , we talking about you giving away truck loads of assets for LaVine right now when he's gonna be a free agent in 2022.

Good teams give away picks cause they don't need em, we're not a good team yet.

It’s not really a lot though. Just 2 first round picks basically. And we still have our picks for this year. If we get Lavine, our future picks won’t be that good imo.

I’m not really trying to wait another season to get him. Let’s get after him now while we have the assets, before some other team does. The sooner we get Lavine, the better our team will look. And that means we’ll attract other good players to the Knicks.

That's our 2020 pick in Obi, so 3 first rounders, and a 2nd rounder which is pretty much the equivalent of a first rounder. The 2024 pick is far out enough that I wouldn't even want to trade that either, because who really knows if we'll be better than the Bulls 3 years from now.


Waiting another season is the most logical choice, he's just not good enough to be giving up all that for. I don't understand the rush either, the top of the east is young enough that you making a mistake in the build will really have a long lasting impact. Lets keep it real, a Randle/LaVine core isn't putting fear into anyones heart in the East, think about a playoff matchup with us against the Sixers, Bucks, Nets or Celtics, we wouldn't have the best player in any of those series and outside of the Nets the cores on those teams are still pretty young. You'd need to rely on free agency to bring in the guy to be better than both of them, and that guy isn't in any of the next 2-3 free agency classes. You can't trade for that guy because we'll be blowing most of our draft capital on getting LaVine too.

I mean Obi isn’t anything special to me. So I don’t mind adding him in.

A core of IQ, Lavine, RJ, Randle, Mitch is pretty good, assuming they keep developing. I’ll take my chances. We already beat the Bucks, Celtics. Sixers are a treadmill team. Basically it’s us vs the Nets. I think Thibs will turn Lavine into a winning player just like he did to Randle.

We also still have our picks for this year, which may be 2 lottery picks. So that’s another piece or 2 to add to the core. We’d still be pretty loaded.

[thebuzzardman]

You still on Randle moratorium , we talking about you giving away truck loads of assets for LaVine right now when he's gonna be a free agent in 2022.

Good teams give away picks cause they don't need em, we're not a good team yet.

It’s not really a lot though. Just 2 first round picks basically. And we still have our picks for this year. If we get Lavine, our future picks won’t be that good imo.

I’m not really trying to wait another season to get him. Let’s get after him now while we have the assets, before some other team does. The sooner we get Lavine, the better our team will look. And that means we’ll attract other good players to the Knicks.

That's our 2020 pick in Obi, so 3 first rounders, and a 2nd rounder which is pretty much the equivalent of a first rounder. The 2024 pick is far out enough that I wouldn't even want to trade that either, because who really knows if we'll be better than the Bulls 3 years from now.


Waiting another season is the most logical choice, he's just not good enough to be giving up all that for. I don't understand the rush either, the top of the east is young enough that you making a mistake in the build will really have a long lasting impact. Lets keep it real, a Randle/LaVine core isn't putting fear into anyones heart in the East, think about a playoff matchup with us against the Sixers, Bucks, Nets or Celtics, we wouldn't have the best player in any of those series and outside of the Nets the cores on those teams are still pretty young. You'd need to rely on free agency to bring in the guy to be better than both of them, and that guy isn't in any of the next 2-3 free agency classes. You can't trade for that guy because we'll be blowing most of our draft capital on getting LaVine too.

LaVine is a player who I want, but I think will cost too much for the Knicks to get.

Let's say the Knicks get picks - and I'm making up a good option/not good option for the 2021 draft - 5th and 18th. Lucky on Knicks pick, less lucky on the Mavs, assuming the Mavs win some and the last 5 teams are very close and it just doesn't quite work out great for the Knicks.

Knicks sign Trent Jr. Pick up Randle's option. Let's pretend Cade or Suggs or Kuminga makes it to 4th. Kuminga. Knicks do another year of Rose. Flipped Frank for 2nd rounder, Bullocks for a 2nd rounder. Doesn't matter what year.

Rose/IQ
RJ/Trent Jr
Kuminga/Burks (back again cheap deal)
Randle/Obi
Mitch/Some backup C
Knox. The 18th pick in the 2021 draft. A few vets.

Now, when the Knicks talk to the Bulls, there are the above assets on the team to chose from, plus
Knicks #1 picks 2022->
Dallas #1 pick in 2023
TWolves 2nd rounder in 2023
And about 4 2nd rounders from Jazz, Cavs and 2 from Frank/Bullocks moves

Just seems there is more potential to make a trade where the Knicks are still in good shape afterwards.

*EDIT

For all I posted, 3totheheadMelo DID keep the 2021 picks #1's of Knicks/Dallas, so while it hurts the Knicks in the future, draft capital wise, Knicks could potentially, in my scenario, draft a guy like Kuminga or Green and still have RJ, and have added LaVine.

[Clyde_Style]

It’s not really a lot though. Just 2 first round picks basically. And we still have our picks for this year. If we get Lavine, our future picks won’t be that good imo.

I’m not really trying to wait another season to get him. Let’s get after him now while we have the assets, before some other team does. The sooner we get Lavine, the better our team will look. And that means we’ll attract other good players to the Knicks.

That's our 2020 pick in Obi, so 3 first rounders, and a 2nd rounder which is pretty much the equivalent of a first rounder. The 2024 pick is far out enough that I wouldn't even want to trade that either, because who really knows if we'll be better than the Bulls 3 years from now.


Waiting another season is the most logical choice, he's just not good enough to be giving up all that for. I don't understand the rush either, the top of the east is young enough that you making a mistake in the build will really have a long lasting impact. Lets keep it real, a Randle/LaVine core isn't putting fear into anyones heart in the East, think about a playoff matchup with us against the Sixers, Bucks, Nets or Celtics, we wouldn't have the best player in any of those series and outside of the Nets the cores on those teams are still pretty young. You'd need to rely on free agency to bring in the guy to be better than both of them, and that guy isn't in any of the next 2-3 free agency classes. You can't trade for that guy because we'll be blowing most of our draft capital on getting LaVine too.

LaVine is a player who I want, but I think will cost too much for the Knicks to get.

Let's say the Knicks get picks - and I'm making up a good option/not good option for the 2021 draft - 5th and 18th. Lucky on Knicks pick, less lucky on the Mavs, assuming the Mavs win some and the last 5 teams are very close and it just doesn't quite work out great for the Knicks.

Knicks sign Trent Jr. Pick up Randle's option. Let's pretend Cade or Suggs or Kuminga makes it to 4th. Kuminga. Knicks do another year of Rose. Flipped Frank for 2nd rounder, Bullocks for a 2nd rounder. Doesn't matter what year.

Rose/IQ
RJ/Trent Jr
Kuminga/Burks (back again cheap deal)
Randle/Obi
Mitch/Some backup C
Knox. The 18th pick in the 2021 draft. A few vets.

Now, when the Knicks talk to the Bulls, there are the above assets on the team to chose from, plus
Knicks #1 picks 2022->
Dallas #1 pick in 2023
TWolves 2nd rounder in 2023
And about 4 2nd rounders from Jazz, Cavs and 2 from Frank/Bullocks moves

Just seems there is more potential to make a trade where the Knicks are still in good shape afterwards.

Yes, that's a detailed version of my post. One year is nothing in the scheme of things, but could make all the difference in the world.

[thebuzzardman]

That's our 2020 pick in Obi, so 3 first rounders, and a 2nd rounder which is pretty much the equivalent of a first rounder. The 2024 pick is far out enough that I wouldn't even want to trade that either, because who really knows if we'll be better than the Bulls 3 years from now.


Waiting another season is the most logical choice, he's just not good enough to be giving up all that for. I don't understand the rush either, the top of the east is young enough that you making a mistake in the build will really have a long lasting impact. Lets keep it real, a Randle/LaVine core isn't putting fear into anyones heart in the East, think about a playoff matchup with us against the Sixers, Bucks, Nets or Celtics, we wouldn't have the best player in any of those series and outside of the Nets the cores on those teams are still pretty young. You'd need to rely on free agency to bring in the guy to be better than both of them, and that guy isn't in any of the next 2-3 free agency classes. You can't trade for that guy because we'll be blowing most of our draft capital on getting LaVine too.

LaVine is a player who I want, but I think will cost too much for the Knicks to get.

Let's say the Knicks get picks - and I'm making up a good option/not good option for the 2021 draft - 5th and 18th. Lucky on Knicks pick, less lucky on the Mavs, assuming the Mavs win some and the last 5 teams are very close and it just doesn't quite work out great for the Knicks.

Knicks sign Trent Jr. Pick up Randle's option. Let's pretend Cade or Suggs or Kuminga makes it to 4th. Kuminga. Knicks do another year of Rose. Flipped Frank for 2nd rounder, Bullocks for a 2nd rounder. Doesn't matter what year.

Rose/IQ
RJ/Trent Jr
Kuminga/Burks (back again cheap deal)
Randle/Obi
Mitch/Some backup C
Knox. The 18th pick in the 2021 draft. A few vets.

Now, when the Knicks talk to the Bulls, there are the above assets on the team to chose from, plus
Knicks #1 picks 2022->
Dallas #1 pick in 2023
TWolves 2nd rounder in 2023
And about 4 2nd rounders from Jazz, Cavs and 2 from Frank/Bullocks moves

Just seems there is more potential to make a trade where the Knicks are still in good shape afterwards.

Yes, that's a detailed version of my post. One year is nothing in the scheme of things, but could make all the difference in the world.

I threw an edit in. In fairness to 3-Melo, he has the Knicks keeping the Dallas and Knicks 2021 #1's, so they would probably be pretty good etc and maybe the future stuff doesn't hurt as much.

But I'm wary from the past of not having enough assets once the team was "good" to make it "better". Or survive a bad injury etc.

I guess a TL/DR version is:

You wait until after the 2021 draft/this season to see exactly how lucky/smart the team was in those.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

It’s not really a lot though. Just 2 first round picks basically. And we still have our picks for this year. If we get Lavine, our future picks won’t be that good imo.

I’m not really trying to wait another season to get him. Let’s get after him now while we have the assets, before some other team does. The sooner we get Lavine, the better our team will look. And that means we’ll attract other good players to the Knicks.

That's our 2020 pick in Obi, so 3 first rounders, and a 2nd rounder which is pretty much the equivalent of a first rounder. The 2024 pick is far out enough that I wouldn't even want to trade that either, because who really knows if we'll be better than the Bulls 3 years from now.


Waiting another season is the most logical choice, he's just not good enough to be giving up all that for. I don't understand the rush either, the top of the east is young enough that you making a mistake in the build will really have a long lasting impact. Lets keep it real, a Randle/LaVine core isn't putting fear into anyones heart in the East, think about a playoff matchup with us against the Sixers, Bucks, Nets or Celtics, we wouldn't have the best player in any of those series and outside of the Nets the cores on those teams are still pretty young. You'd need to rely on free agency to bring in the guy to be better than both of them, and that guy isn't in any of the next 2-3 free agency classes. You can't trade for that guy because we'll be blowing most of our draft capital on getting LaVine too.

I mean Obi isn’t anything special to me. So I don’t mind adding him in.

A core of IQ, Lavine, RJ, Randle, Mitch is pretty good, assuming they keep developing. I’ll take my chances. We already beat the Bucks, Celtics. Sixers are a treadmill team. Basically it’s us vs the Nets. I think Thibs will turn Lavine into a winning player just like he did to Randle.

We also still have our picks for this year, which may be 2 lottery picks. So that’s another piece or 2 to add to the core. We’d still be pretty loaded.

We beat them in regular season games, I'm talking about the playoffs, and none of the guys you named have ever been in a playoff series. Assuming we make the playoffs with that roster, it usually takes 1-2 trips before a team starts winning playoff series. Also, that is not a good core compared to teams that have top 10 players, or the Sixers who you say are a treadmill team. We're not beating the Bucks, Sixers or Celtics in a series with that roster, lets be real here, you don't expect the Pacers to beat any of them right?


Winning player? Bro we're 2 games under .500 Thibs also traded LaVine away, so who even knows if he wants to coach him again.

[Richard4444]

The Knicks could've amnestied Amar'e instead of Billups.

The Knicks could've matched the offer for Lin.

We didn't overpay to get Chandler, we just paid a lot of money for a DPOY. That was a reasonable thing to do.

Shumpert and JR were decent contributors, at least for a time. They were rotation players on a championship team. JR, of course, quit on us.

Dolan forced the FO to trade a first round pick for Bargnani.

The Knicks had a trade for Lowry but Dolan vetoed it.

The Knicks had the flexibility to build a contender, just not enough to afford to make too many mistakes. They just made a lot of bad decisions. The first mistake was amnestying Billups instead of Amar'e. That's the original sin that torpedoed the Melo era. The Knicks were mediocre at best, bad at worst whenever Amar'e was playing. That's a fact. Dolan vetoing the Lowry trade just as he was entering his prime was the nail in the coffin.

1) Stat was not a lost cause by the time we amnestied Billups. Its unthinkable to give away 80M to save cap space waiving a star player if everybody thinks he can be recovered.

2) Tyson is a rim protector role player (Mitch style). We paid him 13M/y. Its like 22% of cap space back then. It would be 24M today.

3) It would be stupid to match Lin offer. Its was a big mistake made by Houston. Lin was good. But he was not a star to deserve that kind of salary.

4) JR was a wild card. Sometimes he was a great asset. Sometimes a bun.

5) Shumpert was never a really great prospect. Especially after his injury. Besides, he was signed after the Melo trade. And it's hard to find talent with 17th pick. We should not expect too much from a 17th pick. You got lucky getting a useful player like him.

6) We traded for Bargs because we were desperate for any talent. The roster was too unqualified to be a contender. We were desperate because we traded all our roster to get Melo (without cap space and with few picks).

7) Trading for Lowry would be epic. But it was a very unique opportunity that we did not take. We were in a bad spot and only a bad decision for another team could have saved us.

Your point was that we could not build a good team after the Melo trade. That's not true at all.

We won 54 games and got the #2 seed in the East in 2012-13. We had our own first round draft pick in the summer of 2013, and future picks to make moves to improve the roster.

You said it yourself, Shumpert was a useful player. That would contradict your claim that we only had Melo and Tyson and a bunch of nobodies.

Gobert's salary takes up approximately 25% of the salary cap for Utah right now, and they're the best team in the NBA by record. Granted, Gobert is better than Chandler, but Chandler was an All-NBA defensive center who completely transformed our defense. Signing an elite rim protector to a big contract doesn't necessarily prevent you from building a contender, as we're seeing this year.

James Dolan pushed for a trade for Bargnani as an overreaction to the Brooklyn Nets trading for Pierce and Garnett. He traded a future pick for Bargs, and then vetoed a trade for Lowry. That right there, is the rare back-to-back blunder that's the difference between being a lottery team and contending in the East.

Assuming we packaged Raymond Felton, Metta World Peace, Tim Hardaway Jr. and/or a 2018 first-round pick for Lowry (the rumored deal that was floating at the time):

Lowry / Udrih
Prigioni / JR
Shumpert / Novak
Melo / Stoudemire
Chandler / Martin

Would've been a top 4 seed in the East. With plenty of draft capital left to make one final move at the deadline to push us over the top. The Heat were running on fumes, and the Pacers team that beat us the year before (with Melo playing hurt) imploded before the playoffs.

About Amar'e: it was unlikely the Knicks would amnesty him, you're right. But FOs get paid millions to have the foresight to make tough decisions. Did you know Amar'e had a negative on/off all his years in New York, including his first year? The Knicks should've taken the warnings from Phoenix's medical staff more seriously. The Knicks should've taken his injury more seriously. The Knicks should've seen that Melo and Amar'e played the same position and could not co-exist. The Knicks should've looked at the advanced stats and seen that Amar'e wasn't that big of a difference-maker, if at all. Keeping Amar'e was a PR move. I understand it, but it was the wrong move.

I did not say it was impossible. But it was very hard.

I am not trying to defend Dolan. But if the Lowry deal was indeed true. It would be a bad deal for Toronto. We cant make a point that trading for Melo was a great deal with an argument that we could get a star player in a trade for nothing. We would not have known we could get Lowry on discount before getting Melo.

Its very improbable that we can land a nice player without a lottery pick and half of our FRPs. It's very unlikely that we could trade trash for a star. Also, it was unlikely that we would have a nice roster without cap space and a team nice enough to attract ring chasers.

If we dont have a nice roster, nice prospects, cap space, lottery picks, we are the definition of a treadmill team. We have little room for improvement. We will need to rely on luck to find nice players late on the draft or develop cheap FAs

We had luck in 2013. We got a team full of end of career vets. But their bodies could not hold for an entire season. They were cheap for a motive. We cant expect endurance for the entire season or continuity for the next seasons with these kind of moves.

PS: Gobert is a way better offensive player than Tyson was.

PS2: Its not football. We need 2-way players. Chandler was superb and Shumpert good on defense. Melo was superb, JR and Novak were good on offense. We did not have a competitive roster.

PS3: We got Felton for cheap and he had a really good season. But he fell off a cliff the following season. There was a reason that he was cheap.

PS4: In 2014, we had a really bad season. The roster was very bad. Bargnani was not the only culprit.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Knicks can afford to take their time. No need to rush into things. If the right player becomes available for the right price, then make the you make the move. Feels like Lavine is gonna cost too much for my liking though.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

LaVine is a player who I want, but I think will cost too much for the Knicks to get.

Let's say the Knicks get picks - and I'm making up a good option/not good option for the 2021 draft - 5th and 18th. Lucky on Knicks pick, less lucky on the Mavs, assuming the Mavs win some and the last 5 teams are very close and it just doesn't quite work out great for the Knicks.

Knicks sign Trent Jr. Pick up Randle's option. Let's pretend Cade or Suggs or Kuminga makes it to 4th. Kuminga. Knicks do another year of Rose. Flipped Frank for 2nd rounder, Bullocks for a 2nd rounder. Doesn't matter what year.

Rose/IQ
RJ/Trent Jr
Kuminga/Burks (back again cheap deal)
Randle/Obi
Mitch/Some backup C
Knox. The 18th pick in the 2021 draft. A few vets.

Now, when the Knicks talk to the Bulls, there are the above assets on the team to chose from, plus
Knicks #1 picks 2022->
Dallas #1 pick in 2023
TWolves 2nd rounder in 2023
And about 4 2nd rounders from Jazz, Cavs and 2 from Frank/Bullocks moves

Just seems there is more potential to make a trade where the Knicks are still in good shape afterwards.

Yes, that's a detailed version of my post. One year is nothing in the scheme of things, but could make all the difference in the world.

I threw an edit in. In fairness to 3-Melo, he has the Knicks keeping the Dallas and Knicks 2021 #1's, so they would probably be pretty good etc and maybe the future stuff doesn't hurt as much.

But I'm wary from the past of not having enough assets once the team was "good" to make it "better". Or survive a bad injury etc.

I guess a TL/DR version is:

You wait until after the 2021 draft/this season to see exactly how lucky/smart the team was in those.

That's the thing though, the Bulls are going to want the 2021 picks, and I doubt they'd settle for anything else.


I just don't get the rush to trade for guys who will be free agents, it almost never works out for teams in the end. The Sixers traded for Tobias Harris when they could have just signed him with caproom at the end of the season, he's playing better but those assets they used to get him could have been used for something else. The only time it's really acceptable is if you're getting a top 10 guy, and he can win you games by himself if need be.

The asking price for LaVine will be like a top 10 guy, but his impact isn't even close.

[cgmw]

Knicks can afford to take their time. No need to rush into things.

Famous last words.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Yes, that's a detailed version of my post. One year is nothing in the scheme of things, but could make all the difference in the world.

I threw an edit in. In fairness to 3-Melo, he has the Knicks keeping the Dallas and Knicks 2021 #1's, so they would probably be pretty good etc and maybe the future stuff doesn't hurt as much.

But I'm wary from the past of not having enough assets once the team was "good" to make it "better". Or survive a bad injury etc.

I guess a TL/DR version is:

You wait until after the 2021 draft/this season to see exactly how lucky/smart the team was in those.

That's the thing though, the Bulls are going to want the 2021 picks, and I doubt they'd settle for anything else.


I just don't get the rush to trade for guys who will be free agents, it almost never works out for teams in the end. The Sixers traded for Tobias Harris when they could have just signed him with caproom at the end of the season, he's playing better but those assets they used to get him could have been used for something else. The only time it's really acceptable is if you're getting a top 10 guy, and he can win you games by himself if need be.

The asking price for LaVine will be like a top 10 guy, but his impact isn't even close.

Yea, there is not a lot of incentive right now for the Bulls to make the move. If we can get him for relatively cheap them I am all for it. But the asking price is probably going to be really high.

[Clyde_Style]

LaVine is a player who I want, but I think will cost too much for the Knicks to get.

Let's say the Knicks get picks - and I'm making up a good option/not good option for the 2021 draft - 5th and 18th. Lucky on Knicks pick, less lucky on the Mavs, assuming the Mavs win some and the last 5 teams are very close and it just doesn't quite work out great for the Knicks.

Knicks sign Trent Jr. Pick up Randle's option. Let's pretend Cade or Suggs or Kuminga makes it to 4th. Kuminga. Knicks do another year of Rose. Flipped Frank for 2nd rounder, Bullocks for a 2nd rounder. Doesn't matter what year.

Rose/IQ
RJ/Trent Jr
Kuminga/Burks (back again cheap deal)
Randle/Obi
Mitch/Some backup C
Knox. The 18th pick in the 2021 draft. A few vets.

Now, when the Knicks talk to the Bulls, there are the above assets on the team to chose from, plus
Knicks #1 picks 2022->
Dallas #1 pick in 2023
TWolves 2nd rounder in 2023
And about 4 2nd rounders from Jazz, Cavs and 2 from Frank/Bullocks moves

Just seems there is more potential to make a trade where the Knicks are still in good shape afterwards.

Yes, that's a detailed version of my post. One year is nothing in the scheme of things, but could make all the difference in the world.

I threw an edit in. In fairness to 3-Melo, he has the Knicks keeping the Dallas and Knicks 2021 #1's, so they would probably be pretty good etc and maybe the future stuff doesn't hurt as much.

But I'm wary from the past of not having enough assets once the team was "good" to make it "better". Or survive a bad injury etc.

I guess a TL/DR version is:

You wait until after the 2021 draft/this season to see exactly how lucky/smart the team was in those.

This is key. To me at least. We drafted Mitch at 35 and IQ at 25 and we have built a robust analytics crew to complement our scouts. I like our chances with several shots to take in a deep draft whatever our draft positions are.

Aside from BPA, there has to be a clear need to secure our future PG. I don't doubt IQ's talent, but I still see him as a combo guard who is going to excel by playing off of a PG. Already, we saw him thrive next to Rose in like two seconds so I think that is a good assumption.

This is where leveling up really works. This current version of Rose is clearly superior to Payton so you bring him back for a year or two in a supporting or even starting role and let Elf walk (insert prayer). If we land a hot rookie PG who is not fully ready to start you bring him along next season until he is ready to take over.

What I like about IQ in particular is he could be either be our SG or a sixth man on a top contender. His range is microwave wet so I can see that happening under some circumstances. That would probably be dictated by what talent influx at SG we have. If the BPA is a SG you can still draft them and you are good with both of them.

Plus, the rest of the season should be about seeing what Obi's true prospects are going to be. He is perking up and looking less wobbly so I think the calf injury may have affected way more than people are taking into account for. He is top heavy and moves like he does, but last night he was posting up and looked like he wasn't going to fall over so I think there was a physical adaptation from healing going on. If he is really good, then that's another factor we should be able to answer this season.

In a nutshell, this is still a season highly predicated on talent evaluation. That was my hope and vision and so far the FO is showing a similar bent so I'm inclined to believe they are thinking along the same lines as we are.

[3toheadmelo]

That's our 2020 pick in Obi, so 3 first rounders, and a 2nd rounder which is pretty much the equivalent of a first rounder. The 2024 pick is far out enough that I wouldn't even want to trade that either, because who really knows if we'll be better than the Bulls 3 years from now.


Waiting another season is the most logical choice, he's just not good enough to be giving up all that for. I don't understand the rush either, the top of the east is young enough that you making a mistake in the build will really have a long lasting impact. Lets keep it real, a Randle/LaVine core isn't putting fear into anyones heart in the East, think about a playoff matchup with us against the Sixers, Bucks, Nets or Celtics, we wouldn't have the best player in any of those series and outside of the Nets the cores on those teams are still pretty young. You'd need to rely on free agency to bring in the guy to be better than both of them, and that guy isn't in any of the next 2-3 free agency classes. You can't trade for that guy because we'll be blowing most of our draft capital on getting LaVine too.

I mean Obi isn’t anything special to me. So I don’t mind adding him in.

A core of IQ, Lavine, RJ, Randle, Mitch is pretty good, assuming they keep developing. I’ll take my chances. We already beat the Bucks, Celtics. Sixers are a treadmill team. Basically it’s us vs the Nets. I think Thibs will turn Lavine into a winning player just like he did to Randle.

We also still have our picks for this year, which may be 2 lottery picks. So that’s another piece or 2 to add to the core. We’d still be pretty loaded.

We beat them in regular season games, I'm talking about the playoffs, and none of the guys you named have ever been in a playoff series. Assuming we make the playoffs with that roster, it usually takes 1-2 trips before a team starts winning playoff series. Also, that is not a good core compared to teams that have top 10 players, or the Sixers who you say are a treadmill team. We're not beating the Bucks, Sixers or Celtics in a series with that roster, lets be real here, you don't expect the Pacers to beat any of them right?


Winning player? Bro we're 2 games under .500 Thibs also traded LaVine away, so who even knows if he wants to coach him again.

Sixers are horrible in the playoffs cause of Ben Simmons. Not worried about them Pacers can beat them

Knicks are 7th seed right now

I think Thibs would like to coach Lavine again

“He’s continued to grow I think each year,’’ Thibodeau said. “I think sometimes we tend to forget the steps that players take to get to the point to where they are today. and for Zach, he started off, I think he scored around 13 or 14 points a game his first year. Then there was another four-point jump. Now he’s up to 26, 27. He’s shooting 50, 40, 90. He’s an elite shooter. He’s a great athlete. … But he’s a great guy, a hard worker. So you knew he would continue to improve. He’s playing at a very high level.’’

[Chanel Bomber]

1) Stat was not a lost cause by the time we amnestied Billups. Its unthinkable to give away 80M to save cap space waiving a star player if everybody thinks he can be recovered.

2) Tyson is a rim protector role player (Mitch style). We paid him 13M/y. Its like 22% of cap space back then. It would be 24M today.

3) It would be stupid to match Lin offer. Its was a big mistake made by Houston. Lin was good. But he was not a star to deserve that kind of salary.

4) JR was a wild card. Sometimes he was a great asset. Sometimes a bun.

5) Shumpert was never a really great prospect. Especially after his injury. Besides, he was signed after the Melo trade. And it's hard to find talent with 17th pick. We should not expect too much from a 17th pick. You got lucky getting a useful player like him.

6) We traded for Bargs because we were desperate for any talent. The roster was too unqualified to be a contender. We were desperate because we traded all our roster to get Melo (without cap space and with few picks).

7) Trading for Lowry would be epic. But it was a very unique opportunity that we did not take. We were in a bad spot and only a bad decision for another team could have saved us.

Your point was that we could not build a good team after the Melo trade. That's not true at all.

We won 54 games and got the #2 seed in the East in 2012-13. We had our own first round draft pick in the summer of 2013, and future picks to make moves to improve the roster.

You said it yourself, Shumpert was a useful player. That would contradict your claim that we only had Melo and Tyson and a bunch of nobodies.

Gobert's salary takes up approximately 25% of the salary cap for Utah right now, and they're the best team in the NBA by record. Granted, Gobert is better than Chandler, but Chandler was an All-NBA defensive center who completely transformed our defense. Signing an elite rim protector to a big contract doesn't necessarily prevent you from building a contender, as we're seeing this year.

James Dolan pushed for a trade for Bargnani as an overreaction to the Brooklyn Nets trading for Pierce and Garnett. He traded a future pick for Bargs, and then vetoed a trade for Lowry. That right there, is the rare back-to-back blunder that's the difference between being a lottery team and contending in the East.

Assuming we packaged Raymond Felton, Metta World Peace, Tim Hardaway Jr. and/or a 2018 first-round pick for Lowry (the rumored deal that was floating at the time):

Lowry / Udrih
Prigioni / JR
Shumpert / Novak
Melo / Stoudemire
Chandler / Martin

Would've been a top 4 seed in the East. With plenty of draft capital left to make one final move at the deadline to push us over the top. The Heat were running on fumes, and the Pacers team that beat us the year before (with Melo playing hurt) imploded before the playoffs.

About Amar'e: it was unlikely the Knicks would amnesty him, you're right. But FOs get paid millions to have the foresight to make tough decisions. Did you know Amar'e had a negative on/off all his years in New York, including his first year? The Knicks should've taken the warnings from Phoenix's medical staff more seriously. The Knicks should've taken his injury more seriously. The Knicks should've seen that Melo and Amar'e played the same position and could not co-exist. The Knicks should've looked at the advanced stats and seen that Amar'e wasn't that big of a difference-maker, if at all. Keeping Amar'e was a PR move. I understand it, but it was the wrong move.

I did not say it was impossible. But it was very hard.

I am not trying to defend Dolan. But if the Lowry deal was indeed true. It would be a bad deal for Toronto. We cant make a point that trading for Melo was a great deal with an argument that we could get a star player in a trade for nothing. We would not have known we could get Lowry on discount before getting Melo.

Its very improbable that we can land a nice player without a lottery pick and half of our FRPs. It's very unlikely that we could trade trash for a star. Also, it was unlikely that we would have a nice roster without cap space and a team nice enough to attract ring chasers.

If we dont have a nice roster, nice prospects, cap space, lottery picks, we are the definition of a treadmill team. We have little room for improvement. We will need to rely on luck to find nice players late on the draft or develop cheap FAs

We had luck in 2013. We got a team full of end of career vets. But their bodies could not hold an entire season. They were cheap for a motive. We cant expect endurance for continuity for the next seasons with these kind of moves.

PS: Gobert is a way better offensive player than Tyson was.

The 2012-13 season was not the result of luck.

Melo was an All-NBA player and finished 3rd in MVP voting. We ran a system that worked and highlighted his strengths. Amar'e was injured for most of the year, which means he wasn't bringing the team down with his play.

The trade for Lowry was going down until Dolan stepped in and blocked it. It's not a theoretical trade that's unfair for the Raptors. It's a trade that was discussed and agreed to by both parties.

The point is that the Knicks were able to build a good team and it took a series of mistakes that came back to bite them that accelerated their demise. James Dolan has a lot of blood in his hands in that regard.

Had Dolan not intervened for the Bargnani and the Lowry trades, we would have been able to build upon the foundation that was laid in 2012-13 and probably even improved after a 54-win season. We would've been a contender for the foreseeable future, or close to it.

You're underestimating the negative impact of Bargnani (and Amar'e), and the missed opportunity of the Lowry trade.

We were a very good team and we had the assets to get even better. Dolan simply ruined it with two swings of the sword. The narrative that the Knicks couldn't build a good team after the Melo trade when they were the 2nd seed in the East two years after the trade, and had a deal lined up for another perennial All-Star in Lowry, is simply not rooted in facts.

It's a myth.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I mean Obi isn’t anything special to me. So I don’t mind adding him in.

A core of IQ, Lavine, RJ, Randle, Mitch is pretty good, assuming they keep developing. I’ll take my chances. We already beat the Bucks, Celtics. Sixers are a treadmill team. Basically it’s us vs the Nets. I think Thibs will turn Lavine into a winning player just like he did to Randle.

We also still have our picks for this year, which may be 2 lottery picks. So that’s another piece or 2 to add to the core. We’d still be pretty loaded.

We beat them in regular season games, I'm talking about the playoffs, and none of the guys you named have ever been in a playoff series. Assuming we make the playoffs with that roster, it usually takes 1-2 trips before a team starts winning playoff series. Also, that is not a good core compared to teams that have top 10 players, or the Sixers who you say are a treadmill team. We're not beating the Bucks, Sixers or Celtics in a series with that roster, lets be real here, you don't expect the Pacers to beat any of them right?


Winning player? Bro we're 2 games under .500 Thibs also traded LaVine away, so who even knows if he wants to coach him again.

Sixers are horrible in the playoffs cause of Ben Simmons. Not worried about them Pacers can beat them

Knicks are 7th seed right now

I think Thibs would like to coach Lavine again

“He’s continued to grow I think each year,’’ Thibodeau said. “I think sometimes we tend to forget the steps that players take to get to the point to where they are today. and for Zach, he started off, I think he scored around 13 or 14 points a game his first year. Then there was another four-point jump. Now he’s up to 26, 27. He’s shooting 50, 40, 90. He’s an elite shooter. He’s a great athlete. … But he’s a great guy, a hard worker. So you knew he would continue to improve. He’s playing at a very high level.’’

The Sixers have gotten out of the first round every year but last year when Simmons was out, we're not beating them and neither are the Pacers. The point is that our team with LaVine would be a lot like the Pacers, nobody would pick us over teams with top 10 guys and everyone would be able to see that we'd still need the guy. The only way LaVine makes sense is if we sign him in free agency.

7th seed is under .500, I can divide that's a 1 hot record every 10 year average.

[Zenzibar]

Jrue holiday has a PO this season. Let’s say he declines it..


Jrue Holiday/Quickley
Zach Lavine/Rose
RJ Barrett/ Burks
Julius Randle/Gafford
Mitchell Robinson/Noel

[Chanel Bomber]

Knicks can afford to take their time. No need to rush into things. If the right player becomes available for the right price, then make the you make the move. Feels like Lavine is gonna cost too much for my liking though.

What's the timeline for the Knicks taking their time?

The Knicks will have to decide whether to extend Randle and Mitch next summer. RJ the year after. These contracts will eat up a chunk of our capspace.

I'm not saying we need to make a move today, but the Knicks won't stay in cap heaven forever.

If the Knicks want to sign future free agents, they might have to make a trade to acquire their targets before they hit free agency. Seems to be the new norm, partly at least.