Knicks - Hawks PG: This is what effort looks like

[HEZI]

Free RJ! And by free I mean get rid of Randle and that terrible halfcourt, slow paced, selfish style of play everybody has to play with him on the court

The eye test clearly shows that RJ doesn't fit well with those starters and his style of play is much more suited when he's out there with young energetic players who can move the ball and get out and run that happen to be on our bench

[Deeeez Knicks]

Team high +18 for RJ last night folks leading the way.

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[Jalen Bluntson]

I hope RJ can get out of his funk after this and shut this board up. Randle is overpaid. Thibs smokes crack. The FO reluctance to commit to a younger team always shows to be a mistake every year. Kemba needs to be situational.

I don't think there will be a trade worth mentioning this year. What FA are up for next year?

playing him with the bench more is the key. They like to play the same tempo as him and that's the key of unlocking him.

Agree. My argument against the direction the team is taking is just that. PLAY THE DAMN KIDS MORE! Chasing the playoffs with Burks/Bullock/Payton/Taj/Noel/Yada yada yada... is pointless. We all see how much more entertaining it is to watch the kids play over the starter/bench role playing vets we keep running out there max minutes.

Amazing how much better RJ looks with the kids. IMO Randle disrupts any and all flow of the game most of the time. He shouldn't be bringing up the ball. Period.

[mpharris36]

The average RJ realist:

Here is a chart showing mathematical evidence that RJ is bad.

The typical RJ defender:

basketball reference actually admits to never ever use DBPM to prove anything.

[DaGawd]

I don't put much stock into those charts but in this case they confirm both the eye test and the advanced numbers for RJ.

It's just not going to happen for RJ.

He's wildly inefficient as an off-ball role player - the stats show it.

He's completely incompetent as an on-ball player - the eye test shows it.

The worst part of it is, he's not a good defender to make up for his lack of offense. He wants to be a great defender, and I'm sure he puts in the work, but he physically can't do it. He's being held back by his slow first step (on both ends actually). It's pretty sad to watch. RJ's strong, but he has Evan Fournier burst.

His ceiling is probably a useful role player in 4-5 years if we're being honest. He's not even useful in that role today.

DickGrayson, don't take this RJ slander. Get in here and defend him against Chanel Bomber like you call me out.

I was going to add that he and Randle are terrible fits for one another.

They have the same weaknesses but they like to play at a different pace. They're definitely not compatible. The question for me is, should the Knicks trade one of them or both of them? I lean towards the latter.

You made a comment last season buzz that I thought was enlightening and changed my perspective a bit.

You mentioned how you were tired of hearing about which players/style of play RJ (or any of our young players) needs to blossom. Basically how the team should help him, instead of how he should help the team. I think this in large part is true. The only players you want to tailor your team around are superstar talents (like Bron or Giannis for instance).

The issue is, RJ is not a superstar talent, and does not warrant having a roster built around him. He should be part of the answer, not part of the question. RJ so far isn't helping for the most part. Even in a limited role.

I'm not even blaming him - by all accounts he's a hard-worker and I love his character - it just is what it is. It's up to the front office to make the right call. Hopefully his career pans out in a way that the right call was to keep him in NY, but that appears highly questionable.

Faxxx! I’m legit tired of hearing the excuses of who RJ fits well with and what would help him play better.. he’s just not that good to be trying to move Heaven and earth to make him the best version of himself.. which is probably just a really good role player

[robillionaire]

I hope RJ can get out of his funk after this and shut this board up. Randle is overpaid. Thibs smokes crack. The FO reluctance to commit to a younger team always shows to be a mistake every year. Kemba needs to be situational.

I don't think there will be a trade worth mentioning this year. What FA are up for next year?

playing him with the bench more is the key. They like to play the same tempo as him and that's the key of unlocking him.

Agree. My argument against the direction the team is taking is just that. PLAY THE DAMN KIDS MORE! Chasing the playoffs with Burks/Bullock/Payton/Taj/Noel/Yada yada yada... is pointless. We all see how much more entertaining it is to watch the kids play over the starter/bench role playing vets we keep running out there max minutes.

Amazing how much better RJ looks with the kids. IMO Randle disrupts any and all flow of the game most of the time. He shouldn't be bringing up the ball. Period.

It’s not pointless, players under development should be able to experience winning and see what it takes to win games and maybe even feel what a playoff atmosphere is like, not just getting gifted beaucoup unearned minutes during losing basketball. The fact that some of them are starting to look good to the point people want them to play more is just an endorsement of what they are doing

[mpharris36]

Read on Twitter

good morning to no one but thibs

thibs doesn't get credit for having his hand forced with Kemba and Rose both out to let IQ shine in an on ball roll.

[mpharris36]

Free RJ! And by free I mean get rid of Randle and that terrible halfcourt, slow paced, selfish style of play everybody has to play with him on the court

The eye test clearly shows that RJ doesn't fit well with those starters and his style of play is much more suited when he's out there with young energetic players who can move the ball and get out and run that happen to be on our bench

if this is how thibs is going to play it just let Burks start with that group then. He plays more ISO style offense anyway which suits with the starters.

IQ/RJ/Obi up and down play really well together.

[HEZI]

DickGrayson, don't take this RJ slander. Get in here and defend him against Chanel Bomber like you call me out.

I was going to add that he and Randle are terrible fits for one another.

They have the same weaknesses but they like to play at a different pace. They're definitely not compatible. The question for me is, should the Knicks trade one of them or both of them? I lean towards the latter.

You made a comment last season buzz that I thought was enlightening and changed my perspective a bit.

You mentioned how you were tired of hearing about which players/style of play RJ (or any of our young players) needs to blossom. Basically how the team should help him, instead of how he should help the team. I think this in large part is true. The only players you want to tailor your team around are superstar talents (like Bron or Giannis for instance).

The issue is, RJ is not a superstar talent, and does not warrant having a roster built around him. He should be part of the answer, not part of the question. RJ so far isn't helping for the most part. Even in a limited role.

I'm not even blaming him - by all accounts he's a hard-worker and I love his character - it just is what it is. It's up to the front office to make the right call. Hopefully his career pans out in a way that the right call was to keep him in NY, but that appears highly questionable.

Faxxx! I’m legit tired of hearing the excuses of who RJ fits well with and what would help him play better.. he’s just not that good to be trying to move Heaven and earth to make him the best version of himself.. which is probably just a really good role player

It's not moving heaven and earth. The starting lineup was a terrible idea from the start. There's nobody in the starting lineup worth keeping for the long term and the only guy with any potential in it is RJ. So whether or not RJ becomes a star or role player isn't about moving heaven and earth its about going in a direction that we should be going in because where we are now is nothing but a dead end street

[Deeeez Knicks]

I was going to add that he and Randle are terrible fits for one another.

They have the same weaknesses but they like to play at a different pace. They're definitely not compatible. The question for me is, should the Knicks trade one of them or both of them? I lean towards the latter.

You made a comment last season buzz that I thought was enlightening and changed my perspective a bit.

You mentioned how you were tired of hearing about which players/style of play RJ (or any of our young players) needs to blossom. Basically how the team should help him, instead of how he should help the team. I think this in large part is true. The only players you want to tailor your team around are superstar talents (like Bron or Giannis for instance).

The issue is, RJ is not a superstar talent, and does not warrant having a roster built around him. He should be part of the answer, not part of the question. RJ so far isn't helping for the most part. Even in a limited role.

I'm not even blaming him - by all accounts he's a hard-worker and I love his character - it just is what it is. It's up to the front office to make the right call. Hopefully his career pans out in a way that the right call was to keep him in NY, but that appears highly questionable.

Faxxx! I’m legit tired of hearing the excuses of who RJ fits well with and what would help him play better.. he’s just not that good to be trying to move Heaven and earth to make him the best version of himself.. which is probably just a really good role player

It's not moving heaven and earth. The starting lineup was a terrible idea from the start. There's nobody in the starting lineup worth keeping for the long term and the only guy with any potential in it is RJ. So whether or not RJ becomes a star or role player isn't about moving heaven and earth its about going in a direction that we should be going in because where we are now is nothing but a dead end street

Facts. It wasn't even just RJ. Randle, Fournier, Kemba, whatever C we started were all buns together

[Zenzibar]

Watch on YouTube

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Even further into the numbers, Randle had a 22.9 usage rate (Nba.com) while Basketball ref has it at 23.6, either way it was the 4th lowest of the season for him. He had a net rating of -0.3 while Obi had a +21.2, we are reaching a point where these numbers are starting to state the obvious, which is our offense is appreciably better when he's off the floor. On the season we had a 106.6 ORTG when he's on the court, and a 116.8 when he's off. He shared the court with IQ/Burks a lot last night and his individual ORTG for the game was 108.5 (Nba.com) while basketball-reference has it at a putrid 77, his career ORTG is 108 excluding his rookie year of 1 game. He has reverted back to what he was pre-contract season, while still trying to demand the same type of offensive possessions.


We are without a doubt a worse team with him on the floor this season, on both sides of the ball. All the people who swore we can't score without him haven't been looking at the numbers, we're scoring in spite of him. Without him on the floor the offense gets faster, we play more to the strengths of the guards, and the defense also gets better. I'm going to start keeping track of individual game ratings.

[Chanel Bomber]

I was going to add that he and Randle are terrible fits for one another.

They have the same weaknesses but they like to play at a different pace. They're definitely not compatible. The question for me is, should the Knicks trade one of them or both of them? I lean towards the latter.

You made a comment last season buzz that I thought was enlightening and changed my perspective a bit.

You mentioned how you were tired of hearing about which players/style of play RJ (or any of our young players) needs to blossom. Basically how the team should help him, instead of how he should help the team. I think this in large part is true. The only players you want to tailor your team around are superstar talents (like Bron or Giannis for instance).

The issue is, RJ is not a superstar talent, and does not warrant having a roster built around him. He should be part of the answer, not part of the question. RJ so far isn't helping for the most part. Even in a limited role.

I'm not even blaming him - by all accounts he's a hard-worker and I love his character - it just is what it is. It's up to the front office to make the right call. Hopefully his career pans out in a way that the right call was to keep him in NY, but that appears highly questionable.

Faxxx! I’m legit tired of hearing the excuses of who RJ fits well with and what would help him play better.. he’s just not that good to be trying to move Heaven and earth to make him the best version of himself.. which is probably just a really good role player

It's not moving heaven and earth. The starting lineup was a terrible idea from the start. There's nobody in the starting lineup worth keeping for the long term and the only guy with any potential in it is RJ. So whether or not RJ becomes a star or role player isn't about moving heaven and earth its about going in a direction that we should be going in because where we are now is nothing but a dead end street

Scott Perry built the foundation of this starting line-up. Before last season, he had 13 seasons as a senior executive in the NBA - he hadn't reached .500 once.

So trust this foundation at your own peril. That includes Randle and RJ.

WWW drafted IQ. Thibs asked for Derrick Rose. Leon Rose drafted Obi. They (along with Burks) were the difference-makers last year.

In all honesty, RJ's been part of the problem more than part of the solution. He's my favorite Knick, but you (us, not you) have to look at him realistically.

[mpharris36]

TPA also says IQ is one of our worst players. How can anyone objectively look at that stat and the way IQ has played and tell me that it makes sense.

IQ NET rating is a +11.6 (OFF rating 110.1 and a DEF rating of 98.5)

Yet TPA suggests he is pretty much a negative player on both ends.

Its objectively a **** stat.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Free RJ! And by free I mean get rid of Randle and that terrible halfcourt, slow paced, selfish style of play everybody has to play with him on the court

The eye test clearly shows that RJ doesn't fit well with those starters and his style of play is much more suited when he's out there with young energetic players who can move the ball and get out and run that happen to be on our bench

Here's a guessing game, this is pace from last night's game, can you guess which one is Randle, Simms and Obi?







Shouldn't be that hard to figure out who is walking up the court and who is running

[KnixtapeH20]

Burks is not a good defender

Y'all getting fooled the same way y'all thought Elfrid was a good defender.

Burks is a much better defender than Elfraud. He doesn't just die on every screen.

You can make the case he's better defensively than RJ too, although I'd say they're about equal. He's miles better than Kemba, Fournier and Rose.

On offense he's more versatile and more efficient than RJ, more dynamic than Fournier, can play on and off the ball, although he can have tunnel vision and make silly turnovers. He's still one of our 3 best offensive players.

He's one of our few players who are good in their roles. The Knicks would be a better team if he played more minutes. Same with IQ.

Knick fans are reluctant to admit it, but Burks is a better player than RJ. I mean, on the one hand he should be, being 10 years older. And I'm fully aware that when Burks' minutes goes up, so does his tendency to start missing, or at least get streaky and force stuff. But even with all that, he's better.

Right now it's not even a question. If NYKmentality took a lie detector test he'd fail miserably.

RJ is far from a finished product he's going to will himself to be a great player but right now he's shaky and lately the invisible man. Played better yesterday.

[Reign23]

hahn pushing for iq to start. start iq you cowards!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If Thibs starts Kemba again I’ll laugh my azz off

Thibs isnt that stupid. bBurks just won the starting job the rest of the yesr unless IQ takes it at some point. No **** wsy does Thibs bring old ass slow Kemba back as a starter.. He shouldn't even get many minutes with how talented grimes is and the other young kids. There's only so many spots Kemba might be forced out unless Thibs is just clueless to appease him

don't get your hopes up. Kemba will be starting on tuesday.

[thebuzzardman]

I don't put much stock into those charts but in this case they confirm both the eye test and the advanced numbers for RJ.

It's just not going to happen for RJ.

He's wildly inefficient as an off-ball role player - the stats show it.

He's completely incompetent as an on-ball player - the eye test shows it.

The worst part of it is, he's not a good defender to make up for his lack of offense. He wants to be a great defender, and I'm sure he puts in the work, but he physically can't do it. He's being held back by his slow first step (on both ends actually). It's pretty sad to watch. RJ's strong, but he has Evan Fournier burst.

His ceiling is probably a useful role player in 4-5 years if we're being honest. He's not even useful in that role today.

DickGrayson, don't take this RJ slander. Get in here and defend him against Chanel Bomber like you call me out.

I was going to add that he and Randle are terrible fits for one another.

They have the same weaknesses but they like to play at a different pace. They're definitely not compatible. The question for me is, should the Knicks trade one of them or both of them? I lean towards the latter.

You made a comment last season buzz that I thought was enlightening and changed my perspective a bit.

You mentioned how you were tired of hearing about which players/style of play RJ (or any of our young players) needs to blossom. Basically how the team should help him, instead of how he should help the team. I think this in large part is true. The only players you want to tailor your team around are superstar talents (like Bron or Giannis for instance).

The issue is, RJ is not a superstar talent, and does not warrant having a roster built around him. He should be part of the answer, not part of the question. RJ so far isn't helping for the most part. Even in a limited role.

I'm not even blaming him - by all accounts he's a hard-worker and I love his character - it just is what it is. It's up to the front office to make the right call. Hopefully his career pans out in a way that the right call was to keep him in NY, but that appears highly questionable.

I make a lot of comments. Some even make sense. That one on RJ might, but then again, maybe year two was early to put that on him.

RJ could be a keeper, for a variety of reasons. He might get better. I think his current flaws create some starting roster issues BUT on the other hand, for a player drafted high etc, he's low ego and VERY willing to fit into the team concept, do the little things. I mean, when I joke and call him Cadillac Ntilikina, it's not exactly an insult. His floor, which he's already been at and passed, is a solid glue guy with a correct mentality.

Agree on the FO - this is the tough decisions they get the big $ to get right. Do you resign or trade RJ? At what $ amount is he still good and conducive to roster flexibility, in that which other players can you still fit in and is he easy to move if necessary etc.

Knicks get to have a 4th year to assist in that process. Hey, some wanted to give Frank 4 years. RJ is far better and he might need that 4th year or even 5. People did this with Frank - who DID turn out to be not that good, so far, where they lost patience in basically year 2. Some in year 1. That these guys are drafted really young. There's no more 4 years of college mandatory, where players still needed 2 years to get it together, quite often. Or three. Or even two. It's one and done. Occasionally none and done.
So while a SMALL % look really good out of the gate, many of them need to get in those 3 years to be 22 years old. You know, the age players were DRAFTED at, 40 years ago.

I've been extra harsh on RJ, mainly because I'm pissed because I thought he turned a corner but then he regressed hard. Then again, all progress isn't linear.

Side note about young Knicks and RJ.
Whatever RJ is, it's still worth it Knicks kept their pick and drafted him. I mean, in some alternate universe they could have traded back, but that's still keeping a pick.

We should take a moment and appreciate this FO and really the prior has done that, whatever other faults they have.
RJ contributes. He starts.
Mitch contributes He mostly starts.
IQ is an important rotational player.
Obi is, if nothing else, a solid backup 4. Seems he could be more.
Sims actually plays and is decent/not worthless. He was drafted near the end of the 2nd round.
Grimes sees action 20 games into his first season and at the very least, isn't terrible.
McBride is on the roster, waiting a turn.

In the past, these slots would have been filled, for worse and sometimes better, by the likes of Jarrett Jack, Sessions, Beasley, Jerome James, KOQ, Beasley and so on, deep into the bowels of Knick vet FA signings.
So, that's a good thing.

[KnixtapeH20]

If Thibs starts Kemba again I’ll laugh my azz off

Thibs isnt that stupid. bBurks just won the starting job the rest of the yesr unless IQ takes it at some point. No **** wsy does Thibs bring old ass slow Kemba back as a starter.. He shouldn't even get many minutes with how talented grimes is and the other young kids. There's only so many spots Kemba might be forced out unless Thibs is just clueless to appease him

don't get your hopes up. Kemba will be starting on tuesday.

Would it surprise me, no but it would literally be on par with starting elfrid when there's better options. Kemba isn't even close to as bad as elfrid but he's not it.

Burks earned the starting spot the rest of the season or until IQ gets the nod/promotion.

[thebuzzardman]

Free RJ! And by free I mean get rid of Randle and that terrible halfcourt, slow paced, selfish style of play everybody has to play with him on the court

The eye test clearly shows that RJ doesn't fit well with those starters and his style of play is much more suited when he's out there with young energetic players who can move the ball and get out and run that happen to be on our bench

Is it me or has Thibs tweaked the rotations some the last 3 games to get RJ more time with IQ and Obi in the 2nd unit?
I mean, it's not like he did before, and Rose is out and Kemba sat, so it could be all that, but feels like Thibs is slowly making that rotation change he referred to.