PG: Knicks vs Suns- 11/21/24

[stuporman]

You definitely try to put players in a position to use their skills and try to find a way to hide their weaknesses in some of the tactics used but to suggest a coach should completely change their whole system to suit players when season after season there is a significant turnover is nonsense.

The coach needs to be consistent and provide a solid foundation of systematic fundamentals to create a culture and identity for a team, with the adjustments made for specific players skills a more nuanced aspect of the strategies. Any suggestion saying they should completely change all the time in ludicrous.

That being said, Thibs has certainly shifted his system over time to include modern aspects of the NBA game while continuing to stress the fundamentals he likes in defense and high effort. As evidence, the Knicks have a top 3 offense early into a chemistry building season while still being very defense hustle oriented.

[JayTWill]

This years Knicks are playing completely different than last years Knicks so the formula has changed because the roster has changed. So that kind of debunks your formula argument. Thibs has adjusted to a different style based on what has and hasn’t worked during his tenure and the moves made by the front office to get where we are now. If you aren’t paying attention then maybe you should. We are breaking some historic franchise records and it’s still only November. He’s doing something right.

You are comparing most coaches to Thibs yet most coaches don’t have the resume to fit your standard that you set for Thibs. There is a very small number of coaches who have been able to reach these type of standards without generational talent. You can feel more confident in generational talent carrying you throughout the playoffs when these players have a proven track record. Otherwise no coach is really sacrificing wins in the regular season unless they are tanking. Some teams have deeper rosters and can depend on the bench so that makes things even easier. Others don’t have that luxury and have to rely on starters more. Thibs has done well with what he has had.

No coach before or after Thibs has been able to get more out of Randle than he has, so sure you can say he didn’t do this or that but at the end of the day he got the most out of him. There’s only so much a coach can do with a player like Randle. It’s why he’s no longer here.

Coaching and players matter.

How do you think Steph, Klay and Draymond's careers go if the Warriors replaced Mark Jackson with Thibs instead of Kerr? Steph is considered a generational talent. Those 3 could all be hall of famers. Do you think they become a dynasty? Do you think Thibs would switch the offense from the heavy iso/pick and roll to a more free flowing triangle/Spurs ball movement/ D'Antoni pace while maintaining the great defense? Does Thibs elevate that group that was a great defense under Jackson with limited ball movement? I feel like Thibs is much closer to Mark Jackson than he is to Steve Kerr.

And ask Minnesota fans how they feel about the great player Thibs helped to mold from a 20+ point scorer on good efficiency in a smaller role prior to his arrival in New York into a 23-25 point scorer with more offensive freedom with worse efficiency while being completely indifferent to playing defense while expecting a bigger role. I'm sure they are all excited about the "All NBA/All Star"

If your roster is built a certain way you have to coach it a certain way. Yeah Kerr was able to help Warriors but he certainly wasn’t helping the Knicks and in fact he rejected Phil’s offer to join the Knicks. D’Antoni already failed trying that in New York so Kerr knew what he was going to be tasked with and said nah I’m good. We’ve been down this road before, we have seen many successful coaches fail in New York. What worked in one place isn’t guaranteed to work in another place. You need the right group of guys for it to come together. So whatever has worked for Kerr in GS isn’t guaranteed to work elsewhere. He’s not turning the Bucks into the Warriors, it’s just not happening.

This years Knicks play a different style than last years team, so that’s evidence that Thibs can and has adjusted to his roster. Not really sure what point you are trying to make with the Randle comment but it’s actually more evidence to help the case for Thibs than against him. TWolves have no clue what to do with Randle right now whereas Thibs at least knew how to get the best out of him. TWolves had no clue how to use Towns and Thibs has set him loose on the Association. We have one of the most efficient offenses in the league and are playing a free flowing unselfish brand of basketball. Isn’t that what you wanted? What you said Thibs is not capable of delivering? Well he’s doing it right now so what’s the problem? I think it’s just insecurity and past Knicks failures so a scapegoat is always needed. Now it’s Thibs so if anything was to go wrong we already have him on the front line.

Kerr was able to elevate the talent of the Warriors to a much higher level than the previous coach. Same players. Slightly more experienced but a level of dominance not shown under Jackson. You did not answer my question about what you think Thibs would have done with that talent since you seem to want to blame Thibs failures on the talent he has been given.

As far as this year we are 1 month into the season. The offense has obviously changed while the defense has struggled. I'm not going to form an opinion good or bad based on a small sample size where the team has only had success against terrible competition. The offense was incredibly free flowing against a terrible Pistons' defense and then the offense collapsed against the Rockets' physicality the next game. The defense hasn't been great overall. It's too early for me to make a true assessment of how I think the team will perform as the season goes along and into the playoffs based on this year's talent under Thibs.

And Randle is just an example of Thibs/New York hype imo. Using the "development/elevation" of such a flawed player like Randle as an example of Thibs greatness does not make sense to me. A defensive minded coach that constantly harps on defense and will yank a young player out of the game after one defensive breakdown allowed his "star" player to give absolutely no effort defensively whenever he chose to is not an example of great coaching.

Randle scoring a few more points with less efficiency in a role he probably should have never been given as a top 1/2 option isn't the greatest achievement. He is the same exact player in Minny as he has been in New York for the most part. He is a guy that can elevate your offense while dragging down your defense and can drag down both ends when he is one of those moods. He did the same thing under Thibs. Minnesota would probably prefer the 6th man/spot starter pre-New York version of Randle so they could start Reid and bring Randle off the bench instead of this "All-Star" version that Thibs has enabled for the last 4-5 years.

Minnesota fans are calling him the D'Angelo Russell of power forwards. I feel like calling Thibs the Julius Randle of coaches sometimes.

I feel like Randle and Thibs are 2 guys that may have been elevated to roles that are beyond their skillset to be truly great at. They both have picked regular season awards that are not an indicator of where they actually ranked among their peers. They both like to physically overwhelm their opponents in different ways but when they can't things can fall apart for them. Both of them have not matched their regular season success in the postseason. And both of them seem to have just enough emotional instability that the people around them seem to be afraid to point their obvious flaws even when it is clearly hurting the team.

Anyway, we have different opinions on Thibs. I'm just waiting to see how the team performs in bigger moments over a longer period of time before I change my opinion on him. He has his strengths and weaknesses. I just think his weaknesses have held him back more than you do. I'm still rooting for the team and his success. I'm just not willing to turn a blind eye to his flaws from the minutes distribution to the offensive and defensive strategies to the stubbornness at times to his grinding and emotional coaching style etc

[Gravy]

I mean sure Thibs has flaws but what are the chances our next coach will be as great as Steve Kerr. People make it sound like this will be automatic because thats what happened to the Warriors after Mark Jackson so it will happen to us too.

[Deeeez Knicks]

KAT has been absolutely amazing. Better then I could have ever hoped. Rose and Co have nailed some of these trades. When we are rolling this team is very fun to watch

[Chanel Bomber]

KAT has been absolutely amazing. Better then I could have ever hoped. Rose and Co have nailed some of these trades. When we are rolling this team is very fun to watch

It is. The flow is natural. No one tries to force the issue. Perhaps Brunson on occasion but he's entitled to do so considering how effective he is, and the team will need him to get his at times in the playoffs when defenses disrupt ball movement more.

But they all seem to enjoy sharing the ball and it makes for a smooth visual impression.

Most of the moves they have made have been wise.

[Deeeez Knicks]

KAT has been absolutely amazing. Better then I could have ever hoped. Rose and Co have nailed some of these trades. When we are rolling this team is very fun to watch

It is. The flow is natural. No one tries to force the issue. Perhaps Brunson on occasion but he's entitled to do so considering how effective he is, and the team will need him to get his at times in the playoffs when defenses disrupt ball movement more.

But they all seem to enjoy sharing the ball and it makes for a smooth visual impression.

Most of the moves they have made have been wise.

Yea, the ball movement and unselfishness has been great. KAT really opens up things. His assists aren't that high, but he does move the ball and passes well. He's not holding the ball for 20 seconds.

The Mikal trade is the one that seems to be questioned....but we didn't give up any rotation players and his salary fit perfectly to let us still go after KAT. His game is really starting to come around, and he fits in with that unselfish, sharing the ball vibe.

Screw the picks if we can be a legit contender and have a shot.

[3toheadmelo]

Read on Twitter

To put this week’s Knicks offensive outburst in context, it happen against the Nets (x2) in back-to-back games in Madison Square Garden, the crappy Cheese Wiz, and a Suns team without KD and Beal. Please calm down everyone.

Yeah, we’re beating up on bad teams right now. We have to show we can do this against contenders, or this team is headed to the treadmill.

[Chanel Bomber]

KAT has been absolutely amazing. Better then I could have ever hoped. Rose and Co have nailed some of these trades. When we are rolling this team is very fun to watch

It is. The flow is natural. No one tries to force the issue. Perhaps Brunson on occasion but he's entitled to do so considering how effective he is, and the team will need him to get his at times in the playoffs when defenses disrupt ball movement more.

But they all seem to enjoy sharing the ball and it makes for a smooth visual impression.

Most of the moves they have made have been wise.

Yea, the ball movement and unselfishness has been great. KAT really opens up things. His assists aren't that high, but he does move the ball and passes well. He's not holding the ball for 20 seconds.

The Mikal trade is the one that seems to be questioned....but we didn't give up any rotation players and his salary fit perfectly to let us still go after KAT. His game is really starting to come around, and he fits in with that unselfish, sharing the ball vibe.

Screw the picks if we can be a legit contender and have a shot.

I love how the ball doesn't stick with KAT. He has an innate understanding of the court, whereas Randle, while a good passer, needed to take the time to screen the court before making any decision.

The Mikal trade was a massive overpay in a vacuum but agree that entering legit championship contention would justify the cost. I guess the jury's still out in this regard.

I wouldn't have made this move but the Knicks needed an injection of talent to compensate for the loss in talent with iHart's departure. And if we reach our objective thanks to our collective talent level, the move will be remembered as a W regardless of the transaction itself.

Barring a disaster or short of a title, we likely won't be able to judge the trade within its full context for another 2-3 years.

[NYKinMIA]

Yeah, we’re beating up on bad teams right now. We have to show we can do this against contenders, or this team is headed to the treadmill.

[3toheadmelo]

Yeah, we’re beating up on bad teams right now. We have to show we can do this against contenders, or this team is headed to the treadmill.

Not saying we are one, but if we can’t beat contenders and can only beat up on bad teams then unfortunately that is a treadmill. Let’s see how this plays out

[KnixinSix]

Read on Twitter

To put this week’s Knicks offensive outburst in context, it happen against the Nets (x2) in back-to-back games in Madison Square Garden, the crappy Cheese Wiz, and a Suns team without KD and Beal. Please calm down everyone.

Yeah, we’re beating up on bad teams right now. We have to show we can do this against contenders, or this team is headed to the treadmill.

1st time in history accounts for all great teams in history even when they were beating up on bad teams too.

Perspective my brothah!

KAT has already proven more valuable than Randle ever was . Secondly we simply need to have a rim protector out there some of the time. Randle most certainly wouldn't have given us rim protection. We just need to make up for being without both IHart (left) and Mitch (hurt) and to a lesser extent Precious(hurt).

[HEZI]

Coaching and players matter.

How do you think Steph, Klay and Draymond's careers go if the Warriors replaced Mark Jackson with Thibs instead of Kerr? Steph is considered a generational talent. Those 3 could all be hall of famers. Do you think they become a dynasty? Do you think Thibs would switch the offense from the heavy iso/pick and roll to a more free flowing triangle/Spurs ball movement/ D'Antoni pace while maintaining the great defense? Does Thibs elevate that group that was a great defense under Jackson with limited ball movement? I feel like Thibs is much closer to Mark Jackson than he is to Steve Kerr.

And ask Minnesota fans how they feel about the great player Thibs helped to mold from a 20+ point scorer on good efficiency in a smaller role prior to his arrival in New York into a 23-25 point scorer with more offensive freedom with worse efficiency while being completely indifferent to playing defense while expecting a bigger role. I'm sure they are all excited about the "All NBA/All Star"

If your roster is built a certain way you have to coach it a certain way. Yeah Kerr was able to help Warriors but he certainly wasn’t helping the Knicks and in fact he rejected Phil’s offer to join the Knicks. D’Antoni already failed trying that in New York so Kerr knew what he was going to be tasked with and said nah I’m good. We’ve been down this road before, we have seen many successful coaches fail in New York. What worked in one place isn’t guaranteed to work in another place. You need the right group of guys for it to come together. So whatever has worked for Kerr in GS isn’t guaranteed to work elsewhere. He’s not turning the Bucks into the Warriors, it’s just not happening.

This years Knicks play a different style than last years team, so that’s evidence that Thibs can and has adjusted to his roster. Not really sure what point you are trying to make with the Randle comment but it’s actually more evidence to help the case for Thibs than against him. TWolves have no clue what to do with Randle right now whereas Thibs at least knew how to get the best out of him. TWolves had no clue how to use Towns and Thibs has set him loose on the Association. We have one of the most efficient offenses in the league and are playing a free flowing unselfish brand of basketball. Isn’t that what you wanted? What you said Thibs is not capable of delivering? Well he’s doing it right now so what’s the problem? I think it’s just insecurity and past Knicks failures so a scapegoat is always needed. Now it’s Thibs so if anything was to go wrong we already have him on the front line.

Kerr was able to elevate the talent of the Warriors to a much higher level than the previous coach. Same players. Slightly more experienced but a level of dominance not shown under Jackson. You did not answer my question about what you think Thibs would have done with that talent since you seem to want to blame Thibs failures on the talent he has been given.

As far as this year we are 1 month into the season. The offense has obviously changed while the defense has struggled. I'm not going to form an opinion good or bad based on a small sample size where the team has only had success against terrible competition. The offense was incredibly free flowing against a terrible Pistons' defense and then the offense collapsed against the Rockets' physicality the next game. The defense hasn't been great overall. It's too early for me to make a true assessment of how I think the team will perform as the season goes along and into the playoffs based on this year's talent under Thibs.

And Randle is just an example of Thibs/New York hype imo. Using the "development/elevation" of such a flawed player like Randle as an example of Thibs greatness does not make sense to me. A defensive minded coach that constantly harps on defense and will yank a young player out of the game after one defensive breakdown allowed his "star" player to give absolutely no effort defensively whenever he chose to is not an example of great coaching.

Randle scoring a few more points with less efficiency in a role he probably should have never been given as a top 1/2 option isn't the greatest achievement. He is the same exact player in Minny as he has been in New York for the most part. He is a guy that can elevate your offense while dragging down your defense and can drag down both ends when he is one of those moods. He did the same thing under Thibs. Minnesota would probably prefer the 6th man/spot starter pre-New York version of Randle so they could start Reid and bring Randle off the bench instead of this "All-Star" version that Thibs has enabled for the last 4-5 years.

Minnesota fans are calling him the D'Angelo Russell of power forwards. I feel like calling Thibs the Julius Randle of coaches sometimes.

I feel like Randle and Thibs are 2 guys that may have been elevated to roles that are beyond their skillset to be truly great at. They both have picked regular season awards that are not an indicator of where they actually ranked among their peers. They both like to physically overwhelm their opponents in different ways but when they can't things can fall apart for them. Both of them have not matched their regular season success in the postseason. And both of them seem to have just enough emotional instability that the people around them seem to be afraid to point their obvious flaws even when it is clearly hurting the team.

Anyway, we have different opinions on Thibs. I'm just waiting to see how the team performs in bigger moments over a longer period of time before I change my opinion on him. He has his strengths and weaknesses. I just think his weaknesses have held him back more than you do. I'm still rooting for the team and his success. I'm just not willing to turn a blind eye to his flaws from the minutes distribution to the offensive and defensive strategies to the stubbornness at times to his grinding and emotional coaching style etc

Kerr is a classic example of generational talent carrying a coach. This is the same guy who was ready to bench Curry for his shot selection until he realized how great Curry was so he just had to throw his hands up in the air and sit back down in amazement. There is nothing special about Kerr. We’ve seen how terrible they really can be without Curry. Every time Curry gets hurt that team is lotto bound. Curry has done more for Kerr than Kerr has for Curry. Steph was destined for greatness, with or without Kerr.

Benching Randle wasn’t the solution, trading Randle was. Benching Randle would have only made his value even worse and he already had negative trade value despite his accolades. Dude has some of the worst attitude in the league, benching him certainly wouldn’t have helped the team or the locker room long term. They needed to get him out of there and they finally did. Most of us would have been happy with way less than what we actually got so major props to the front office for pulling that off. Thibs didn’t mold Randle, he just had to work with him. Randle was and still is the same player, Thibs just happened to get the best out of him but he was never winning anything significant with him either. Guess what? Kerr couldn’t either.

Funny you mention DAngelo Russell, you seem to forget how awful the Warriors were with Russell. The great Steve Kerr couldn’t do anything about that. The only solution was to trade him. Ironically to Minnesota for Wiggins who was a much better piece for them. Kerr failed with Russell. Doesn’t make him a bad coach but he’s no miracle worker.

You don’t have to turn a blind eye to Thibs flaws, you also don’t have to turn a blind eye to his strengths and positives either. You can look at it objectively. He’s not some great coach, he’s also not a bad coach. He’s solid, has done a solid job so far given what he has had to work with. If and when that time comes where we feel ok there is a better option available that could elevate the team higher then sure explore it and make that change. That time is not now.

[Guano]

Yeah, we’re beating up on bad teams right now. We have to show we can do this against contenders, or this team is headed to the treadmill.

Not saying we are one, but if we can’t beat contenders and can only beat up on bad teams then unfortunately that is a treadmill. Let’s see how this plays out

I get what you're saying. But what's the problem with being a "homer" right now.

This team has a lot of talent and is playing entertaining ball. It's okay to enjoy it and be excited. We haven't had many years like this so might as well enjoy em.

Doesn't mean we can't be concerned with them not closing out good teams, Tom's min distribution, interrior defense. They have flaws. But they do have a lot to be excited about.

[sol537]

Thibs will finish out the season. I think we’ll take a hard look at Dan Hurley in the off-season. Sounds like he may be looking for a new challenge in the NBA.

[3toheadmelo]

Not saying we are one, but if we can’t beat contenders and can only beat up on bad teams then unfortunately that is a treadmill. Let’s see how this plays out

I get what you're saying. But what's the problem with being a "homer" right now.

This team has a lot of talent and is playing entertaining ball. It's okay to enjoy it and be excited. We haven't had many years like this so might as well enjoy em.

Doesn't mean we can't be concerned with them not closing out good teams, Tom's min distribution, interrior defense. They have flaws. But they do have a lot to be excited about.

Being a h0mer has changed you for the worst jk

It’s just that the Knicks have let me down for too many years. I would get my hopes up from these type of games against bad teams only for us to end up on the treadmill and that hurt. Only time I ever felt the Knicks were true contenders was in 2013 and that stung like hell when we lost. I’m not saying you can’t enjoy the Knicks. Our new offense is pretty fun to watch and it’s definitely much different than what we have been used to. I’m just being skeptical of this team until we do real damage to contenders. And this is the first time the Knicks have went all in on a chip in my lifetime so it’s championship or bust now. We can’t settle for mediocrity. Well at least for me personally.

[KnicksGadfly]

I mean sure Thibs has flaws but what are the chances our next coach will be as great as Steve Kerr. People make it sound like this will be automatic because thats what happened to the Warriors after Mark Jackson so it will happen to us too.

First of all, I think Thibs deserves this chance. He built the team, he’s keeping us afloat - he’s even starting KAT even though it’s probably killing him to watch the defense. But hell, we’re winning.

However, if there’s a future where he’s capping our ceilings, we’ll need to make the tough decision to move on. As for finding a coach better than Thibs, that’s why Leon Rose gets paid. I don’t think we’re at that point though.

[Guano]

Not saying we are one, but if we can’t beat contenders and can only beat up on bad teams then unfortunately that is a treadmill. Let’s see how this plays out

I get what you're saying. But what's the problem with being a "homer" right now.

This team has a lot of talent and is playing entertaining ball. It's okay to enjoy it and be excited. We haven't had many years like this so might as well enjoy em.

Doesn't mean we can't be concerned with them not closing out good teams, Tom's min distribution, interrior defense. They have flaws. But they do have a lot to be excited about.

Being a h0mer has changed you for the worst jk

It’s just that the Knicks have let me down for too many years. I would get my hopes up from these type of games against bad teams only for us to end up on the treadmill and that hurt. Only time I ever felt the Knicks were true contenders was in 2013 and that stung like hell when we lost. I’m not saying you can’t enjoy the Knicks. Our new offense is pretty fun to watch and it’s definitely much different than what we have been used to. I’m just being skeptical of this team until we do real damage to contenders. And this is the first time the Knicks have went all in on a chip in my lifetime so it’s championship or bust now. We can’t settle for mediocrity. Well at least for me personally.

lol.
I totally get where you're coming from - being a fan is pain. Especially being a knicks fan. I'm aware that I'm prolly going to suffer a horrible playoff disappointment. But I'm going to enjoy the ride instead of preparing for the letdown.

They went all in I'm all in.

[Chanel Bomber]

We didn’t give up the assets for OG for him to be a 25 mpg brittle part time starter. We also didn’t pay him 200 mil to be that either. He plays hard, Thibs coaches hard. We praise the player for playing hard but put down the coach for coaching hard. I’ll give credit to both because they both deserve it

I didn't say OG should play 25 mpg. I said closer to 30-32 mpg would be more reasonable. And no the Knicks didn't trade for OG to play 25 mpg, they traded him to be a contender. And you know what? They will not be a contender if he gets hurt and misses the playoffs because his body couldn't take a load that was too heavy for him. So as a brittle player with a track record of injury, managing his playing time seems imperative for achieving the objective for which they traded for him in the first place.

I don't even know who you're arguing against. I've given Thibs plenty of credit for his coaching, and I've defended his work on many fronts, including on some of the injuries that we suffered. I just don't defend him for everything.

Anyway, the notion that managing minutes is ridiculous and that coaches have no control whatsoever over player health has been debunked by numerous people in this thread, who all sound more reasonable than you on this specific issue.

The difference between OG being healthy for a deep playoff run and his limbs coming off his body is 32 mpg instead of 35 mpg. Ok thank you so much Mr.Reasonable. For someone so brittle you sure he shouldn’t be at 25MPG? Where are you getting this 30-32 minutes per game Mr. Analytics? You did some numbers crunching and determined that 30-32 minutes is going to keep him healthy?

OG is averaging 36.3 minutes per game, which puts him in the top 20 among all 478 NBA players who have logged minutes this year. For a player who has proven to be this brittle over the years, I don't think it's wise to give him this many minutes.

If he averaged 32 minutes per game instead of 36.3, over a 82 game season it would save him over 352 total minutes, which is the equivalent of approximately 10 games of rest.

If you don't think it's a meaningful difference, I don't know what to tell you.

[JayTWill]

I mean sure Thibs has flaws but what are the chances our next coach will be as great as Steve Kerr. People make it sound like this will be automatic because thats what happened to the Warriors after Mark Jackson so it will happen to us too.

Yeah, i'm not expecting a perfect match with any coach but I feel like keeping Thibs is just a safe choice since you pretty much know what to expect. Cleveland could have easily kept Bickerstaff and sold the fan base on him as a guy that took the team from 22 wins to 44 wins to 51 wins and a first round exit to second round exit team. That is progress but the organization made an assessment of their coach and player talent and decided to move on from Bickerstaff and bring in Atkinson. It was a risk.

It's too early to tell how smart the risk was but it would also be some risk with not making a change. The team could have peaked under Bickerstaff. The same could happen with Thibs. Ideally you have a coach that fits and can maximize your talent. I'm not sure if Thibs is that guy now. I wasn't even sure he was that guy last year.

[3toheadmelo]

I get what you're saying. But what's the problem with being a "homer" right now.

This team has a lot of talent and is playing entertaining ball. It's okay to enjoy it and be excited. We haven't had many years like this so might as well enjoy em.

Doesn't mean we can't be concerned with them not closing out good teams, Tom's min distribution, interrior defense. They have flaws. But they do have a lot to be excited about.

Being a h0mer has changed you for the worst jk

It’s just that the Knicks have let me down for too many years. I would get my hopes up from these type of games against bad teams only for us to end up on the treadmill and that hurt. Only time I ever felt the Knicks were true contenders was in 2013 and that stung like hell when we lost. I’m not saying you can’t enjoy the Knicks. Our new offense is pretty fun to watch and it’s definitely much different than what we have been used to. I’m just being skeptical of this team until we do real damage to contenders. And this is the first time the Knicks have went all in on a chip in my lifetime so it’s championship or bust now. We can’t settle for mediocrity. Well at least for me personally.

lol.
I totally get where you're coming from - being a fan is pain. Especially being a knicks fan. I'm aware that I'm prolly going to suffer a horrible playoff disappointment. But I'm going to enjoy the ride instead of preparing for the letdown.

They went all in I'm all in.

You in april when they let us down again