PG: Knicks vs ATL

[spree8]

We are just here to balance out all the

*Hart airballs a 3* "What is Thibs doing!"
*KAT gets dunked on* "F*** Thibs"
*Brunson turnover* "Where's Kolek? I'm Done with Thibs!!"

type posts

I mean if you are just making up thibs hate then sure. But I don't see most of this ever said.

Maybe the KAT stuff but that is ultimately complaining about consistently having him in drop coverage. Which he isn't good at doing. We all see it. You can see it, I can see it. But we continue to run drop.

The Hart and Brunson stuff is for show on your post so I won't address that.

I dont see a scheme that can fix KATs defense at center, he is really bad. I'm sure Minny tried different things until they had no choice but to get Gobert(which was panned at the time).

Its like when we had Kemba Cam and Fournier in the rotation our defense was terrible and people were blaming schemes, but then Thibs benched them put in guys that could defend and we became good at defense again. Maybe we cant have a good defense with him at center, its like having Randle at center.

Switching? 1 on 1 he’s not bad against bigs or small guards. Drop puts you in a vulnerable situation where you’re having to cover multiple guys coming at you and there’s just too much going on… unless you’re a master rim protector like Gobert who can make those reads and has excellent anticipation, discipline, timing, length, and shot blocking skill.

[HarthorneWingo]

Jeez, only watching the boxscore on ESPN but had to cut away. Was having flashbacks to the Fizdale fissle years. Up 6 with like 6 seconds to go; as Wallace Shaw would say, "Inconceivable!"

Wallace Shaw? You quoted Wallace Shaw to this group?

[mpharris36]

The minutes thing is whatever. I don't really have an interest in that because nobody knows what the perfect amount of mins for each player is. I think both sides of the argument have a case there.

On the other hand, I'd say the notion that Thibs is this terrible archaic offensive coach is just as prevalent and I think there is a mountain of evidence that that is not the case. He may even be a better offensive coach than defensive one at this stage.

I didn't see your edit.

I don't care how much Mikal touches the ball, especially since I don't think anything is stopping him from getting more involved. He's a better offensive player than OG, but OG has no problem getting his.

At the end of the day we have a top 2 offense in the league after having a top 7 offense last year with very different personnel. We've had more 30 assist games this season than we've had in like 20 years. Thibs is doing something right and it goes beyond spamming PnR.

I don't think Thibs is archaic with his offense...actually the opposite. I just don't think he's very much involved with the offense outside of the general philosphy to space the floor and make good rim reads. Jeff Teague has basically said it on his podcast. He lets the players player and make the reads and decisions. I think most of the offense is just Brunson/KAT doing there thing. When Randle here it was basically ISO randle and make him make the decisions with the ball. I guess in that theory you give Thibs credit for "getting out of the way" of his players and let the players play. But there have been multiple players that have went on the record and enjoyed playing for thibs saying he doesn't really call plays and allows a lot of freedom...the offense is a read and react and that requires a lot of decision making on brunson or whoever has the ball and the rest of the team is personal and spacing.

Brunson is brunson
KAT is KAT

they will find ways to score regardless of the coach IMO.

Where I think he has a lot of impact is on the defense...and I have most of my concerns there.

I think Thibs puts a premium on players executing the game plan on both ends. I'd argue there's freedom given on both ends, which is why where many see poor gameplan, I see poor execution more often than not. Thibs hammers the concepts in their heads and prepares them better than any coach (this is almost the universal feedback on him) and then leaves them to execute.

I don't see our personnel consistently executing any defensive game plan that won't leave a major gap on the perimeter or the interior. At least not until Mitch comes back, because much of it is due to KAT's poor rim protection.

So then you don't play drop with a poor rim protecting big... right? Or at least that shouldn't be your "shell" defensive a majority of the time.

I provided key metrics in my post above the KF1992. We have pretty similar personnel to HOU in my opinion. And the variance are stark on what we try to take away and what HOU tries to take away.

Its not just KAT. I see way too many confused guys on when to switch and when not to. Even Hart and Mikal get caught up in it or OG. Those guys should 100% switch everything but because I strongly believe thibs "shell" is to not switch and only do it as a last resort...you have guys indecisive a times. It should be done as second nature at this point.

[mpharris36]

We are just here to balance out all the

*Hart airballs a 3* "What is Thibs doing!"
*KAT gets dunked on* "F*** Thibs"
*Brunson turnover* "Where's Kolek? I'm Done with Thibs!!"

type posts

I mean if you are just making up thibs hate then sure. But I don't see most of this ever said.

Maybe the KAT stuff but that is ultimately complaining about consistently having him in drop coverage. Which he isn't good at doing. We all see it. You can see it, I can see it. But we continue to run drop.

The Hart and Brunson stuff is for show on your post so I won't address that.

I dont see a scheme that can fix KATs defense at center, he is really bad. I'm sure Minny tried different things until they had no choice but to get Gobert(which was panned at the time).

Its like when we had Kemba Cam and Fournier in the rotation our defense was terrible and people were blaming schemes, but then Thibs benched them put in guys that could defend and we became good at defense again. Maybe we cant have a good defense with him at center, its like having Randle at center.

I'm not asking us to be top 10...we don't need to be ...but we can and do have enough talent to overcome whatever inefficiencies KAT has to be in the 10ish range with a tweak of scheme and philosophy. With being a top 1-2 offense that should put us in position to beat almost anybody.

[Iron Mantis]

Yes he's sprinkles in some different defense. We typically don't run a full switch until the very end of the game. Its a majority of drop. We do run some hedge and and recover...and we never run a matchup zone...thibs will never be caught running a zone.

So to make a point...I don't think anyone is saying we are running 100% drop with KAT...we aren't...but its a far far far majority of our "shell" is drop coverage.

Yeah I agree Thibs will never run a zone but you just basically explained how 99% of NBA games go so I'm just wondering what everyone's big deal is here then

Every team has their base coverages they run throughout the year. Maybe some games they'll try something new to just have reps with a different coverage and obviously crunch time is where you'll have wrinkles thrown in.

Not saying you are a culprit of this but, why the majority can't grasp that every regular season game is not treated like a playoff game as far as schemes and adjustments go is beyond me...

We run the same thing in the playoffs too. When Indy hit there 3's we lost when Indy missed there 3's we won. I would rather have more variation to take something away.

And no not every team runs a shell drop the entire game. Denver does because they don't want Jokic switching. Philly would with Embiid because he can't move. And then other rim protecting big do as well.

just look at the metrics.

The knicks are in the 62nd percentile in guarding the roller 1.06 PPP. Very focused on the paint.

The knicks are in the 13th percentile in guarding the ball handler 0.94 PPP. 5th worst in the NBA.

The knicks are in the 3rd percentile in guarding spot up shooters 1.11 PPP. 2nd worst in the NBA.

The knicks are in the 83rd percentile in guarding ISO's .84 PPP. 6th best in the league (mainly due the infrequency of teams ISO's vs us because they know we won't switch often)

For example a team like HOU who has a non defensive center who switches a lot more then us and blitzes is:

24th percentile in guarding the roller 1.14 PPP (8th worst)

90th percentile in guarding the ball handler .85 PPP (4th best)

93rd percentile in guarding spot up shooters .98 PPP (2nd best)

17th percentile in guarding ISO's .95 PPP (6th worse)

Now can you tell me is there a big difference between the aptitude of KAT and Sengun on defense? Or do you think that is more philosophy based?

Its philosophy driven. We both don't have rim protecting bigs but we run more drop and switch less which helps us guard the paint and the roller better. And HOU switches more is will to give up more pts in the paint to the roll man and will live with bad Isolations from time to time because its still not an efficient shot.

One team is top 5 in the league in DEF and we are close to 20th....and we have a better record because our offense is so much better because we have so much more offensive talent.

Sure they have guys like Amen, Brooks, and Tari....we have OG, Bridges, and Hart...maybe there is some different in defensive talent but the difference from top 5 to nearly 20th? both with a poor rim protecting center? Nah that disparity screams philosophy to me.

Great research. Excellent post.

[K_ick_God]

I don't think I agree that we can't be good enough defensively with KAT. I think the effort and dumb fouls say otherwise, not even taking into account his superior offense.

Not even sure our defense was that bad last nigh despite their point total. The rules make it pretty much impossible to defend a guy like Trae and yet he only shot 11-29. When he gets inside, you give him space or foul him. Just a matter of how much pressure you can put on him and while KAT can't do a lot, even Mitch is not shutting him down if he gets within a few feet.

I'm not even sure Mitch is faster than KAT on drives.

[mpharris36]

Yeah I agree Thibs will never run a zone but you just basically explained how 99% of NBA games go so I'm just wondering what everyone's big deal is here then

Every team has their base coverages they run throughout the year. Maybe some games they'll try something new to just have reps with a different coverage and obviously crunch time is where you'll have wrinkles thrown in.

Not saying you are a culprit of this but, why the majority can't grasp that every regular season game is not treated like a playoff game as far as schemes and adjustments go is beyond me...

We run the same thing in the playoffs too. When Indy hit there 3's we lost when Indy missed there 3's we won. I would rather have more variation to take something away.

And no not every team runs a shell drop the entire game. Denver does because they don't want Jokic switching. Philly would with Embiid because he can't move. And then other rim protecting big do as well.

just look at the metrics.

The knicks are in the 62nd percentile in guarding the roller 1.06 PPP. Very focused on the paint.

The knicks are in the 13th percentile in guarding the ball handler 0.94 PPP. 5th worst in the NBA.

The knicks are in the 3rd percentile in guarding spot up shooters 1.11 PPP. 2nd worst in the NBA.

The knicks are in the 83rd percentile in guarding ISO's .84 PPP. 6th best in the league (mainly due the infrequency of teams ISO's vs us because they know we won't switch often)

For example a team like HOU who has a non defensive center who switches a lot more then us and blitzes is:

24th percentile in guarding the roller 1.14 PPP (8th worst)

90th percentile in guarding the ball handler .85 PPP (4th best)

93rd percentile in guarding spot up shooters .98 PPP (2nd best)

17th percentile in guarding ISO's .95 PPP (6th worse)

Now can you tell me is there a big difference between the aptitude of KAT and Sengun on defense? Or do you think that is more philosophy based?

Its philosophy driven. We both don't have rim protecting bigs but we run more drop and switch less which helps us guard the paint and the roller better. And HOU switches more is will to give up more pts in the paint to the roll man and will live with bad Isolations from time to time because its still not an efficient shot.

One team is top 5 in the league in DEF and we are close to 20th....and we have a better record because our offense is so much better because we have so much more offensive talent.

Sure they have guys like Amen, Brooks, and Tari....we have OG, Bridges, and Hart...maybe there is some different in defensive talent but the difference from top 5 to nearly 20th? both with a poor rim protecting center? Nah that disparity screams philosophy to me.

Great research. Excellent post.

I use HOU because I think they have pretty similar personnel. Non rim protecting center (not good defensively). A short PG that can be fiesty but has his short comings. They have a bunch of versatile long wings...we don't have as long wings but still pretty versatile (the reason why you go out and get a OG and Mikal via trade).

They also play a bad defender like Jalen Green a lot but still manage a top 5 DEF.

The biggest philosophy difference I see...they know Sengun would get eaten up in drop so why put him in position to defend 2 guys? Live with some bad mismatches from time to time but don't overhelp on drives or ISO's and live with those shots...but eliminate spot up shooters and perimeter play from guards.

[Knicksfan1992]

Yes he's sprinkles in some different defense. We typically don't run a full switch until the very end of the game. Its a majority of drop. We do run some hedge and and recover...and we never run a matchup zone...thibs will never be caught running a zone.

So to make a point...I don't think anyone is saying we are running 100% drop with KAT...we aren't...but its a far far far majority of our "shell" is drop coverage.

Yeah I agree Thibs will never run a zone but you just basically explained how 99% of NBA games go so I'm just wondering what everyone's big deal is here then

Every team has their base coverages they run throughout the year. Maybe some games they'll try something new to just have reps with a different coverage and obviously crunch time is where you'll have wrinkles thrown in.

Not saying you are a culprit of this but, why the majority can't grasp that every regular season game is not treated like a playoff game as far as schemes and adjustments go is beyond me...

We run the same thing in the playoffs too. When Indy hit there 3's we lost when Indy missed there 3's we won. I would rather have more variation to take something away.

And no not every team runs a shell drop the entire game. Denver does because they don't want Jokic switching. Philly would with Embiid because he can't move. And then other rim protecting big do as well.

just look at the metrics.

The knicks are in the 62nd percentile in guarding the roller 1.06 PPP. Very focused on the paint.

The knicks are in the 13th percentile in guarding the ball handler 0.94 PPP. 5th worst in the NBA.

The knicks are in the 3rd percentile in guarding spot up shooters 1.11 PPP. 2nd worst in the NBA.

The knicks are in the 83rd percentile in guarding ISO's .84 PPP. 6th best in the league (mainly due the infrequency of teams ISO's vs us because they know we won't switch often)

For example a team like HOU who has a non defensive center who switches a lot more then us and blitzes is:

24th percentile in guarding the roller 1.14 PPP (8th worst)

90th percentile in guarding the ball handler .85 PPP (4th best)

93rd percentile in guarding spot up shooters .98 PPP (2nd best)

17th percentile in guarding ISO's .95 PPP (6th worse)

Now can you tell me is there a big difference between the aptitude of KAT and Sengun on defense? Or do you think that is more philosophy based?

Its philosophy driven. We both don't have rim protecting bigs but we run more drop and switch less which helps us guard the paint and the roller better. And HOU switches more is will to give up more pts in the paint to the roll man and will live with bad Isolations from time to time because its still not an efficient shot.

One team is top 5 in the league in DEF and we are close to 20th....and we have a better record because our offense is so much better because we have so much more offensive talent.

Sure they have guys like Amen, Brooks, and Tari....we have OG, Bridges, and Hart...maybe there is some different in defensive talent but the difference from top 5 to nearly 20th? both with a poor rim protecting center? Nah that disparity screams philosophy to me.

Sorry i'm at work and don't have the time to go back and forth this deep with you.

A few things:

Boiling that Indiana series to drop coverage is not serious lol. Yes, of course if a team makes their 3's they are going to win most of the time. This is true for every series and game. The Knicks were missing more than half of their normal rotation by the end of that series including our best defensive personnel. Sorry if i'm not going to kill Thibs for not having a gameplan to deal with the full strength Pacers with more than half of our team gone. We were relying on Burks and Donte to create our offense in game 7 that's all that really needs to be said IMO.

The Rockets have much better defensive personnel than us on the whole. FVV and Holiday both grade out as plus PG defenders. Factor in Amen, Brooks, Jabari (when healthy), Eason, Adams and Tate all being plus guys. They simply just have more good defenders than the Knicks do to compensate for Sengun.

You also have to think about Towns propensity to foul needlessly on the perimeter. Constantly switching him or hedging him early in games is putting him in a position to fail IMO. Teams are going to hunt that out and put him in compromising positions to draw fouls and get him out of the game. Some of the drop coverage is simply saving Towns from himself IMO.

[mpharris36]

Yeah I agree Thibs will never run a zone but you just basically explained how 99% of NBA games go so I'm just wondering what everyone's big deal is here then

Every team has their base coverages they run throughout the year. Maybe some games they'll try something new to just have reps with a different coverage and obviously crunch time is where you'll have wrinkles thrown in.

Not saying you are a culprit of this but, why the majority can't grasp that every regular season game is not treated like a playoff game as far as schemes and adjustments go is beyond me...

We run the same thing in the playoffs too. When Indy hit there 3's we lost when Indy missed there 3's we won. I would rather have more variation to take something away.

And no not every team runs a shell drop the entire game. Denver does because they don't want Jokic switching. Philly would with Embiid because he can't move. And then other rim protecting big do as well.

just look at the metrics.

The knicks are in the 62nd percentile in guarding the roller 1.06 PPP. Very focused on the paint.

The knicks are in the 13th percentile in guarding the ball handler 0.94 PPP. 5th worst in the NBA.

The knicks are in the 3rd percentile in guarding spot up shooters 1.11 PPP. 2nd worst in the NBA.

The knicks are in the 83rd percentile in guarding ISO's .84 PPP. 6th best in the league (mainly due the infrequency of teams ISO's vs us because they know we won't switch often)

For example a team like HOU who has a non defensive center who switches a lot more then us and blitzes is:

24th percentile in guarding the roller 1.14 PPP (8th worst)

90th percentile in guarding the ball handler .85 PPP (4th best)

93rd percentile in guarding spot up shooters .98 PPP (2nd best)

17th percentile in guarding ISO's .95 PPP (6th worse)

Now can you tell me is there a big difference between the aptitude of KAT and Sengun on defense? Or do you think that is more philosophy based?

Its philosophy driven. We both don't have rim protecting bigs but we run more drop and switch less which helps us guard the paint and the roller better. And HOU switches more is will to give up more pts in the paint to the roll man and will live with bad Isolations from time to time because its still not an efficient shot.

One team is top 5 in the league in DEF and we are close to 20th....and we have a better record because our offense is so much better because we have so much more offensive talent.

Sure they have guys like Amen, Brooks, and Tari....we have OG, Bridges, and Hart...maybe there is some different in defensive talent but the difference from top 5 to nearly 20th? both with a poor rim protecting center? Nah that disparity screams philosophy to me.

Sorry i'm at work and don't have the time to go back and forth this deep with you.

A few things:

Boiling that Indiana series to drop coverage is not serious lol. Yes, of course if a team makes their 3's they are going to win most of the time. This is true for every series and game. The Knicks were missing more than half of their normal rotation by the end of that series including our best defensive personnel. Sorry if i'm not going to kill Thibs for not having a gameplan to deal with the full strength Pacers with more than half of our team gone. We were relying on Burks and Donte to create our offense in game 7 that's all that really needs to be said IMO.

The Rockets have much better defensive personnel than us on the whole. FVV and Holiday both grade out as plus PG defenders. Factor in Amen, Brooks, Jabari (when healthy), Eason, Adams and Tate all being plus guys. They simply just have more good defenders than the Knicks do to compensate for Sengun.

You also have to think about Towns propensity to foul needlessly on the perimeter. Constantly switching him or hedging him early in games is putting him in a position to fail IMO. Teams are going to hunt that out and put him in compromising positions to draw fouls and get him out of the game. Some of the drop coverage is simply saving Towns from himself IMO.

Yeah, that wasn't my argument at all about Indy but you seem to be taking one statement and then running with that idea that its an absolute. We probably beat Indy if we are healthy (because Brunson is special offensive player...I didn't say otherwise. I just simply stating our success on defense is mostly relying on teams to miss 3's (sometimes a lot of open 3's). We defend inside out. HOU defends outside in.

And please with HOU having that much better personnel then us. You convienetly left out they have Jalen Green starting who is a terrible defender...and FVV is fiesty but he's a midget. So he is not a huge impactful defender either.

Amen Thompson is an absolute menace...I will give you that...he's probably the best best defender of the bunch (could be an all NBA defensive player this year). But come on...Dillon Brooks/Eason/Jabari Smith is not overwhelming different than OG/Mikal/Precious ect....even we have McBride and Hart who are are plus defenders.

Also Sengun isn't just switching onto PG's the entire time...he's showing and recovering or they are playing more matchup zone and putting Sengun away from the P&R and letting someone else deal with that screen.

You putting too much in happenstance as defense of Thibs. I'm also not saying we should be a top 5 defense. So I'm not saying we should be HOU...I'm saying our personnel is close enough to not have a difference from a top 5 team to a nearly 20th ranked team. We shouldn't be as bad as we are is my whole point behind the metrics.

[Guano]

The Thibs hive has no shame

Thibs in the postgame - I should have been more demonstrative and asked for a timeout

Thibs fans - No thibs you don't make mistakes...ever

I feel like its a bit at this point...

Yeah well he’s taking ownership of the mistake and protecting the players like a good coach does. If they ask towns about the play I’m sure he’s gonna say I messed up and made a bad pass, I should have called timeout, he’s not going to throw the coach under the bus and say well the coach should have called timeout for me. In fact I just pulled up his PG interview and he said “I felt like I gave the game up for my team” Point is simply even when the coach makes some strategic error that doesn’t mean everyone is absolved for their mistakes either.

as the leader of the team thibs shouldn't have put them in a position to fail.

buuuuuuuuuut people make mistakes even leaders. and kat should have called a to or not made that trash pass. also that jHart foul is inexcusable. even though it shouldn't have got to that point. it did and fouling that far out with 3secs left is bad. idgaf if the coach should have prevented it from happening.

[mpharris36]

Thibs in the postgame - I should have been more demonstrative and asked for a timeout

Thibs fans - No thibs you don't make mistakes...ever

I feel like its a bit at this point...

Yeah well he’s taking ownership of the mistake and protecting the players like a good coach does. If they ask towns about the play I’m sure he’s gonna say I messed up and made a bad pass, I should have called timeout, he’s not going to throw the coach under the bus and say well the coach should have called timeout for me. In fact I just pulled up his PG interview and he said “I felt like I gave the game up for my team” Point is simply even when the coach makes some strategic error that doesn’t mean everyone is absolved for their mistakes either.

as the leader of the team thibs shouldn't have put them in a position to fail.

buuuuuuuuuut people make mistakes even leaders. and kat should have called a to or not made that trash pass. also that jHart foul is inexcusable. even though it shouldn't have got to that point. it did and fouling that far out with 3secs left is bad. idgaf if the coach should have prevented it from happening.

thats a lot to put on a player...trae young is flying around and Hart is scrambling out to help Mikal because he's out of position now.

Im in the camp of that is just a reckless last 2nd shot where we are scrambling not to give up a 3.

A lot of stupid plays happened way before that.

Up 6...we probably should have fouled (new thing in the NBA) up 6 don't let them shoot a 3 to make it one possession.

Precious sinking in to stop Trae drive and let Niang get a wide open 3 up 6 is beyond dumb

KAT inbounding not smart...not calling a TO we have rehashed this (inexcusable from Thibs with two timeouts in his pocket).

Then KAT giving up the offensive rebound (at the end of the game the guy could barely move or jump he was spent...b2b playing nearly 90 mins in a 24 hour span.

Then after all that Hart fouling on the perimeter...which I don't think is the worse thing...Trae got around Hart he was def hitting that 3 to walk us off.

[8516knicks]

Jeez, only watching the boxscore on ESPN but had to cut away. Was having flashbacks to the Fizdale fissle years. Up 6 with like 6 seconds to go; as Wallace Shaw would say, "Inconceivable!"

Wallace Shaw? You quoted Wallace Shaw to this group?

INCONCEIVABLE !

[Guano]

Yeah well he’s taking ownership of the mistake and protecting the players like a good coach does. If they ask towns about the play I’m sure he’s gonna say I messed up and made a bad pass, I should have called timeout, he’s not going to throw the coach under the bus and say well the coach should have called timeout for me. In fact I just pulled up his PG interview and he said “I felt like I gave the game up for my team” Point is simply even when the coach makes some strategic error that doesn’t mean everyone is absolved for their mistakes either.

as the leader of the team thibs shouldn't have put them in a position to fail.

buuuuuuuuuut people make mistakes even leaders. and kat should have called a to or not made that trash pass. also that jHart foul is inexcusable. even though it shouldn't have got to that point. it did and fouling that far out with 3secs left is bad. idgaf if the coach should have prevented it from happening.

thats a lot to put on a player...trae young is flying around and Hart is scrambling out to help Mikal because he's out of position now.

Im in the camp of that is just a reckless last 2nd shot where we are scrambling not to give up a 3.

A lot of stupid plays happened way before that.

Up 6...we probably should have fouled (new thing in the NBA) up 6 don't let them shoot a 3 to make it one possession.

Precious sinking in to stop Trae drive and let Niang get a wide open 3 up 6 is beyond dumb

KAT inbounding not smart...not calling a TO we have rehashed this (inexcusable from Thibs with two timeouts in his pocket).

Then KAT giving up the offensive rebound (at the end of the game the guy could barely move or jump he was spent...b2b playing nearly 90 mins in a 24 hour span.

Then after all that Hart fouling on the perimeter...which I don't think is the worse thing...Trae got around Hart he was def hitting that 3 to walk us off.

i just think we're picking on thibs here, tbh.

you posted a lot of swiss cheese holes lining up to blow that lead. I can agree that thibs is the coach and it's his job to prevent these things but I don't think that absolves the players of their fck up. sometimes times different aspects of the team fck up and others have to step up. in this case thibs fcked up and the players needed to step up. which is a kinda a microcosm of how this team is run but i'm going to let you pro-thibs and anti-thibs posters run with that.

[Knicksfan1992]

We run the same thing in the playoffs too. When Indy hit there 3's we lost when Indy missed there 3's we won. I would rather have more variation to take something away.

And no not every team runs a shell drop the entire game. Denver does because they don't want Jokic switching. Philly would with Embiid because he can't move. And then other rim protecting big do as well.

just look at the metrics.

The knicks are in the 62nd percentile in guarding the roller 1.06 PPP. Very focused on the paint.

The knicks are in the 13th percentile in guarding the ball handler 0.94 PPP. 5th worst in the NBA.

The knicks are in the 3rd percentile in guarding spot up shooters 1.11 PPP. 2nd worst in the NBA.

The knicks are in the 83rd percentile in guarding ISO's .84 PPP. 6th best in the league (mainly due the infrequency of teams ISO's vs us because they know we won't switch often)

For example a team like HOU who has a non defensive center who switches a lot more then us and blitzes is:

24th percentile in guarding the roller 1.14 PPP (8th worst)

90th percentile in guarding the ball handler .85 PPP (4th best)

93rd percentile in guarding spot up shooters .98 PPP (2nd best)

17th percentile in guarding ISO's .95 PPP (6th worse)

Now can you tell me is there a big difference between the aptitude of KAT and Sengun on defense? Or do you think that is more philosophy based?

Its philosophy driven. We both don't have rim protecting bigs but we run more drop and switch less which helps us guard the paint and the roller better. And HOU switches more is will to give up more pts in the paint to the roll man and will live with bad Isolations from time to time because its still not an efficient shot.

One team is top 5 in the league in DEF and we are close to 20th....and we have a better record because our offense is so much better because we have so much more offensive talent.

Sure they have guys like Amen, Brooks, and Tari....we have OG, Bridges, and Hart...maybe there is some different in defensive talent but the difference from top 5 to nearly 20th? both with a poor rim protecting center? Nah that disparity screams philosophy to me.

Sorry i'm at work and don't have the time to go back and forth this deep with you.

A few things:

Boiling that Indiana series to drop coverage is not serious lol. Yes, of course if a team makes their 3's they are going to win most of the time. This is true for every series and game. The Knicks were missing more than half of their normal rotation by the end of that series including our best defensive personnel. Sorry if i'm not going to kill Thibs for not having a gameplan to deal with the full strength Pacers with more than half of our team gone. We were relying on Burks and Donte to create our offense in game 7 that's all that really needs to be said IMO.

The Rockets have much better defensive personnel than us on the whole. FVV and Holiday both grade out as plus PG defenders. Factor in Amen, Brooks, Jabari (when healthy), Eason, Adams and Tate all being plus guys. They simply just have more good defenders than the Knicks do to compensate for Sengun.

You also have to think about Towns propensity to foul needlessly on the perimeter. Constantly switching him or hedging him early in games is putting him in a position to fail IMO. Teams are going to hunt that out and put him in compromising positions to draw fouls and get him out of the game. Some of the drop coverage is simply saving Towns from himself IMO.

Yeah, that wasn't my argument at all about Indy but you seem to be taking one statement and then running with that idea that its an absolute. We probably beat Indy if we are healthy (because Brunson is special offensive player...I didn't say otherwise. I just simply stating our success on defense is mostly relying on teams to miss 3's (sometimes a lot of open 3's). We defend inside out. HOU defends outside in.

And please with HOU having that much better personnel then us. You convienetly left out they have Jalen Green starting who is a terrible defender...and FVV is fiesty but he's a midget. So he is not a huge impactful defender either.

Amen Thompson is an absolute menace...I will give you that...he's probably the best best defender of the bunch (could be an all NBA defensive player this year). But come on...Dillon Brooks/Eason/Jabari Smith is not overwhelming different than OG/Mikal/Precious ect....even we have McBride and Hart who are are plus defenders.

Also Sengun isn't just switching onto PG's the entire time...he's showing and recovering or they are playing more matchup zone and putting Sengun away from the P&R and letting someone else deal with that screen.

You putting too much in happenstance as defense of Thibs. I'm also not saying we should be a top 5 defense. So I'm not saying we should be HOU...I'm saying our personnel is close enough to not have a difference from a top 5 team to a nearly 20th ranked team. We shouldn't be as bad as we are is my whole point behind the metrics.

Damn MP let me work LOL... You one stubborn mfer.

We've had a few rough games without our most impactful defensive player. On the whole defense I think has been better than what it has shown the past week. And the Knicks have certainly ha dtheir moments this year where they've shown to be a good defensive team.

I don't think you're being quite honest about Houston's personnel in your comparison. These are D-EPM percentiles of what I would consider their main rotation guys:

Amen - 98th percentile
FVV - 96th percentile
Tari - 94th percentile
Tate - 89th percentile
Sengun 88th percentile
Holiday - 84th percentile
Brooks - 83rd percentile
Adams - 80th percentile
Whitmore - 72nd percentile
Green - 2nd percentile

So their one defender who grades out poorly is also 6'6" with some crazy athletic tools. Kind of a hard guy to target. If you want to say the numbers aren't the end all be all when looking at defense i'll hear ya but the evidence is kind of overwhelming especially when you consider where the Knicks personnel is:

OG - 91st percentile
Mikal - 79th percentile
KAT - 74th percentile
Deuce - 67th percentile
Hart - 62nd percentile
Precious - 55th percentile
Payne - 50th percentile
Shamet - 42nd percentile
Brunson - 6th percentile

[mpharris36]

as the leader of the team thibs shouldn't have put them in a position to fail.

buuuuuuuuuut people make mistakes even leaders. and kat should have called a to or not made that trash pass. also that jHart foul is inexcusable. even though it shouldn't have got to that point. it did and fouling that far out with 3secs left is bad. idgaf if the coach should have prevented it from happening.

thats a lot to put on a player...trae young is flying around and Hart is scrambling out to help Mikal because he's out of position now.

Im in the camp of that is just a reckless last 2nd shot where we are scrambling not to give up a 3.

A lot of stupid plays happened way before that.

Up 6...we probably should have fouled (new thing in the NBA) up 6 don't let them shoot a 3 to make it one possession.

Precious sinking in to stop Trae drive and let Niang get a wide open 3 up 6 is beyond dumb

KAT inbounding not smart...not calling a TO we have rehashed this (inexcusable from Thibs with two timeouts in his pocket).

Then KAT giving up the offensive rebound (at the end of the game the guy could barely move or jump he was spent...b2b playing nearly 90 mins in a 24 hour span.

Then after all that Hart fouling on the perimeter...which I don't think is the worse thing...Trae got around Hart he was def hitting that 3 to walk us off.

i just think we're picking on thibs here, tbh.

you posted a lot of swiss cheese holes lining up to blow that lead. I can agree that thibs is the coach and it's his job to prevent these things but I don't think that absolves the players of their fck up. sometimes times different aspects of the team fck up and others have to step up. in this case thibs fcked up and the players needed to step up. which is a kinda a microcosm of how this team is run but i'm going to let you pro-thibs and anti-thibs posters run with that.

Fouling up 6 prevents the open 3 from Niang

calling a timeout after the 3 allows you to put a more comfortable inbounder to pass it in and have the whole court to work with.

Its not piling on Thibs its his job. Yes precious shouldn't be giving up a 3 and KAT shouldn't panic and make that bad pass but the point of a coach is to do the exact thing to prevent those things.

Its the reason why there is such a thing as a coach and you just don't have 5 guys out there playing with no direction.

Thibs is a seasoned vet...he has a ton of coaching experience...this should be second nature...the fact of the matter he even admitted to his mishap and that is very uncommon for thibs....when we get destroyed by a team shooting 3's he never says he needs to adj his coverage he just says the team needs to play better. So the fact he owned up to not calling a timeout...is the post game should show you how much of a screw up that is.

Players still win and lose you most games...not denying that. That is why I still think the team has a chance to be really good because the talent on the court is really really good and enjoying the run. However especially in close games vs good teams where one or two decisions or moves can cost you a game...everything on the margins matters and coaches should put the team in the best position to win and he didn't do that last night at the end of the game.

[GONYK]

I don't think Thibs is archaic with his offense...actually the opposite. I just don't think he's very much involved with the offense outside of the general philosphy to space the floor and make good rim reads. Jeff Teague has basically said it on his podcast. He lets the players player and make the reads and decisions. I think most of the offense is just Brunson/KAT doing there thing. When Randle here it was basically ISO randle and make him make the decisions with the ball. I guess in that theory you give Thibs credit for "getting out of the way" of his players and let the players play. But there have been multiple players that have went on the record and enjoyed playing for thibs saying he doesn't really call plays and allows a lot of freedom...the offense is a read and react and that requires a lot of decision making on brunson or whoever has the ball and the rest of the team is personal and spacing.

Brunson is brunson
KAT is KAT

they will find ways to score regardless of the coach IMO.

Where I think he has a lot of impact is on the defense...and I have most of my concerns there.

I think Thibs puts a premium on players executing the game plan on both ends. I'd argue there's freedom given on both ends, which is why where many see poor gameplan, I see poor execution more often than not. Thibs hammers the concepts in their heads and prepares them better than any coach (this is almost the universal feedback on him) and then leaves them to execute.

I don't see our personnel consistently executing any defensive game plan that won't leave a major gap on the perimeter or the interior. At least not until Mitch comes back, because much of it is due to KAT's poor rim protection.

So then you don't play drop with a poor rim protecting big... right? Or at least that shouldn't be your "shell" defensive a majority of the time.

I provided key metrics in my post above the KF1992. We have pretty similar personnel to HOU in my opinion. And the variance are stark on what we try to take away and what HOU tries to take away.

Its not just KAT. I see way too many confused guys on when to switch and when not to. Even Hart and Mikal get caught up in it or OG. Those guys should 100% switch everything but because I strongly believe thibs "shell" is to not switch and only do it as a last resort...you have guys indecisive a times. It should be done as second nature at this point.

I think that is fair and I appreciate the research you put into the Houston comp. I'm not necessarily saying we'd be better or worse in a different base scheme, but I am saying we'd have different problems.

Our defense, as I see it, is mainly concerned with:

1. Protecting the paint
2. Keeping Brunson and KAT out of PnR created mismatches as often as possible.

It's the second point that is going to compromise our defense, especially since KAT is very inconsistent when guarding in space. I also think the film bears out that KAT drops too far too often and either leaves the midrange shooter open or get himself too far under the rim to contest a driver with a head of steam.

Personally, I think a defense that challenges Jalen more could be fine, because I don't think he's a bad defender. He's just a small one and he justifiably picks his spots to conserve energy.

I guess at the end of the day though, what is the margin of improvement we're talking about here? Would we have 1-2 more wins if we had a different different defensive base? It seems like a preferential thing that may not carry a ton of weight in the big scheme of things and probably works much better when Mitch is back.

[K_ick_God]

I'd have to see the replay but it looks like Trae was harassed to the point of losing it, so Precious helped didn't he? Niang got a good bounce. But a 2 wins it so you have to scramble.

[Guano]

thats a lot to put on a player...trae young is flying around and Hart is scrambling out to help Mikal because he's out of position now.

Im in the camp of that is just a reckless last 2nd shot where we are scrambling not to give up a 3.

A lot of stupid plays happened way before that.

Up 6...we probably should have fouled (new thing in the NBA) up 6 don't let them shoot a 3 to make it one possession.

Precious sinking in to stop Trae drive and let Niang get a wide open 3 up 6 is beyond dumb

KAT inbounding not smart...not calling a TO we have rehashed this (inexcusable from Thibs with two timeouts in his pocket).

Then KAT giving up the offensive rebound (at the end of the game the guy could barely move or jump he was spent...b2b playing nearly 90 mins in a 24 hour span.

Then after all that Hart fouling on the perimeter...which I don't think is the worse thing...Trae got around Hart he was def hitting that 3 to walk us off.

i just think we're picking on thibs here, tbh.

you posted a lot of swiss cheese holes lining up to blow that lead. I can agree that thibs is the coach and it's his job to prevent these things but I don't think that absolves the players of their fck up. sometimes times different aspects of the team fck up and others have to step up. in this case thibs fcked up and the players needed to step up. which is a kinda a microcosm of how this team is run but i'm going to let you pro-thibs and anti-thibs posters run with that.

Fouling up 6 prevents the open 3 from Niang

calling a timeout after the 3 allows you to put a more comfortable inbounder to pass it in and have the whole court to work with.

Its not piling on Thibs its his job. Yes precious shouldn't be giving up a 3 and KAT shouldn't panic and make that bad pass but the point of a coach is to do the exact thing to prevent those things.

Its the reason why there is such a thing as a coach and you just don't have 5 guys out there playing with no direction.

Thibs is a seasoned vet...he has a ton of coaching experience...this should be second nature...the fact of the matter he even admitted to his mishap and that is very uncommon for thibs....when we get destroyed by a team shooting 3's he never says he needs to adj his coverage he just says the team needs to play better. So the fact he owned up to not calling a timeout...is the post game should show you how much of a screw up that is.

Players still win and lose you most games...not denying that. That is why I still think the team has a chance to be really good because the talent on the court is really really good and enjoying the run. However especially in close games vs good teams where one or two decisions or moves can cost you a game...everything on the margins matters and coaches should put the team in the best position to win and he didn't do that last night at the end of the game.

no argument here - thibs fcked up.

and his players didn't pick him up... until OT.

[K_ick_God]

We obviously gave up a ton of points but held Trae to 11-29. Even had we lost, I don't think we played terrible defense, despite the points. It's the rules that dictate all this. Defender has a basic choice between going for it and making a totally clean defensive play (unlikely) or allowing an easy shot (probably equally unlikely, maybe a tad less, to work), in many situations. You come out to get Trae at 3 feet and he'll go around you for the layin and/or draw a foul. So he basically has that 3 foot shot open if he can get there, and the best you can hope for is some late, very late and distant, disruption of the shot.

There were a couple of plays where he just flipped it in from 3. Because if he gets there, a foul or make are very likely. Defender would have to get lucky or make an extremely clean play. Distracting a little at the end is the best you can hope for. And KAT tried that. Not like he isn't in the right places putting in effort. His arms are not that long and he doesn't have great body control.

[mpharris36]

Sorry i'm at work and don't have the time to go back and forth this deep with you.

A few things:

Boiling that Indiana series to drop coverage is not serious lol. Yes, of course if a team makes their 3's they are going to win most of the time. This is true for every series and game. The Knicks were missing more than half of their normal rotation by the end of that series including our best defensive personnel. Sorry if i'm not going to kill Thibs for not having a gameplan to deal with the full strength Pacers with more than half of our team gone. We were relying on Burks and Donte to create our offense in game 7 that's all that really needs to be said IMO.

The Rockets have much better defensive personnel than us on the whole. FVV and Holiday both grade out as plus PG defenders. Factor in Amen, Brooks, Jabari (when healthy), Eason, Adams and Tate all being plus guys. They simply just have more good defenders than the Knicks do to compensate for Sengun.

You also have to think about Towns propensity to foul needlessly on the perimeter. Constantly switching him or hedging him early in games is putting him in a position to fail IMO. Teams are going to hunt that out and put him in compromising positions to draw fouls and get him out of the game. Some of the drop coverage is simply saving Towns from himself IMO.

Yeah, that wasn't my argument at all about Indy but you seem to be taking one statement and then running with that idea that its an absolute. We probably beat Indy if we are healthy (because Brunson is special offensive player...I didn't say otherwise. I just simply stating our success on defense is mostly relying on teams to miss 3's (sometimes a lot of open 3's). We defend inside out. HOU defends outside in.

And please with HOU having that much better personnel then us. You convienetly left out they have Jalen Green starting who is a terrible defender...and FVV is fiesty but he's a midget. So he is not a huge impactful defender either.

Amen Thompson is an absolute menace...I will give you that...he's probably the best best defender of the bunch (could be an all NBA defensive player this year). But come on...Dillon Brooks/Eason/Jabari Smith is not overwhelming different than OG/Mikal/Precious ect....even we have McBride and Hart who are are plus defenders.

Also Sengun isn't just switching onto PG's the entire time...he's showing and recovering or they are playing more matchup zone and putting Sengun away from the P&R and letting someone else deal with that screen.

You putting too much in happenstance as defense of Thibs. I'm also not saying we should be a top 5 defense. So I'm not saying we should be HOU...I'm saying our personnel is close enough to not have a difference from a top 5 team to a nearly 20th ranked team. We shouldn't be as bad as we are is my whole point behind the metrics.

Damn MP let me work LOL... You one stubborn mfer.

We've had a few rough games without our most impactful defensive player. On the whole defense I think has been better than what it has shown the past week. And the Knicks have certainly ha dtheir moments this year where they've shown to be a good defensive team.

I don't think you're being quite honest about Houston's personnel in your comparison. These are D-EPM percentiles of what I would consider their main rotation guys:

Amen - 98th percentile
FVV - 96th percentile
Tari - 94th percentile
Tate - 89th percentile
Sengun 88th percentile
Holiday - 84th percentile
Brooks - 83rd percentile
Adams - 80th percentile
Whitmore - 72nd percentile
Green - 2nd percentile

So their one defender who grades out poorly is also 6'6" with some crazy athletic tools. Kind of a hard guy to target. If you want to say the numbers aren't the end all be all when looking at defense i'll hear ya but the evidence is kind of overwhelming especially when you consider where the Knicks personnel is:

OG - 91st percentile
Mikal - 79th percentile
KAT - 74th percentile
Deuce - 67th percentile
Hart - 62nd percentile
Precious - 55th percentile
Payne - 50th percentile
Shamet - 42nd percentile
Brunson - 6th percentile

You go work more important then going back and forth with me, I had my busy forecasting days mon-wed so its a lighter day for me.

But D-EPM is nothing more than a plus minus stat per 100 possessions of a players impact on defense. Most teams that are good defensive teams will have guys with high D-EPM. Sengun isn't a close to 90th percentile defender in the NBA. He is up there because they have good surrounding defenders and a really good scheme.

I think you are sort of making my point for me. Our guys should be better collective defenders if the scheme was better. Thats my whole point to my argument. If you give up less 3's and force teams into more ISO situations you probably will have a better defensive net rating and players would have better D-EPM.

Personnel certainly matters that is why I'm not comparing us to OKC or BOS who not only have perimeter defense but rim protection. But there is a team like DET who certainly doesn't have better defenders and they are 12th in the league on defense...there is no excuse for us to be 18th DEF net rating and DET to be 12th based on personnel.