PG Knicks/Lakers

[DaGawd]

Against OKC, Boston, Cavs, Lakers, KAT has averaged 16 PPG with a +\- of -11.0. He gets exposed against the top contending teams.

yeah this isn’t a great look

[3toheadmelo]

post the +\- of everyone in those games.

-11 doesn't seem bad considering we normally lose those games by 20

You can find them on nba.com.

Brunson is averaging 25.8 PPG against those teams while KAT is shtting the bed averaging just 16 PPG. Mikal is also only averaging 13 PPG against those teams. The two guys we went all in on disappear against the best teams in the league. And yall wonder why we’re mid.

how many shots in Kat getting? the offense is "give brunson the ball" of course he's averaging more.

what is JB's +/-? you did the work for Kat, do it for brunson.

last night Kat was -1 and brunson was -8. doesn't exactly fit your narrative.

in those 8 games brunson is -111 (avg -13.9)

Here's the starting 5:
Brunson -111
Kat -98
OG -67 (missed 1 game)
Bridges -145
Hart -125 (missed 1 game)

KAT is averaging 16 PPG and Mikal 13 PPG. They sht the bed against contenders.

[kNicksGmen]

funny thing is people were celebrating not “overpaying” with that Mitchell package because he allegedly isn’t an A list superstar and hasn’t won a championship like Giannis, therefore we are too good for him. Then we turn around and trade a superstar package for Mikal who isn’t A list or B list or really any list of star, and this is defended. I could even be fine with that hypocrisy if he was a good role player glue guy or defender that puts us over the top, like OG seems to be. But he struggles even to be that at times. Most the time he barely makes an impact. Oh and the best part is now we can’t get Giannis either

Not getting Mitchell was bad, maybe not the end all be all because at least we kept the assets and pick package and there was still a window of opportunity to use them for something else really good. But in the end, we didn’t do that. We traded it all for a 3rd rate role player with a 4th rate impact

i agree with your take but the difference was at the time of the mitchell trade the knicks weren't even considered anything close to contending. brunson was still an unknown and not expected to be a star. at the time of the bridges trade there was the combination of the assets losing value and knicks approaching being locked into the roster due to apron restrictions. and fans/people felt the january knicks that were dominant basically just adding bridges would be contenders. the expectation of losing i-hart also forced their hand imo

i'm not defending the trade and like i said i agree in hindsight trading for mitchell was the better move - but the context of where the team was in their timeline was different.

also i am sure if the knicks did trade for mitchell, fans would have defended it as not being an overpay. fans are largely homers at the end of the day so will defend the move the team makes or downplay the move they didn't make etc.

I don’t really accept this first excuse because it’s just admitting that whoever was doing this “considering” of the Knicks not being able to compete, front office or fans or otherwise, and therefore deciding it’s pointless to add Donovan, did not have the foresight to recognize the talent level we had on the team. So if that’s their rationale, we didn’t realize we were sitting on a second round caliber playoff team, well that’s another piece of the blunder puzzle

the Cavs happily did the trade even though they didn’t even make the playoffs. Donovan really and truly is an A list star and the proof is in the pudding. Apparently the move was supposed to ruin them and they have the best record in the NBA.

Your last paragraph is probably true

the other thing i forgot to mention is at the time of the mitchell trade, i think the knicks were still holding out for a bigger name. obviously that never happened but at that point they still felt they might be able to get embiid (yikes) or giannis etc. when they made the bridges trade it was largely them giving up on that.

again i'm not disagreeing with you or you take, just there is some subtle context to the different points in the timeline. the timing of the mitchell trade the team was still in "wait it out" mode, piling up assets and looking to slowly build. the timing of the bridges trade was "we have to go all in now before it's too late".

[TKKnicks1]

Read on Twitter

just a reminder we continue to run a majority of drop coverage...

From what I've seen this season KAT is actually not a bad perimeter defender. I've seen multiple times he has held his own 1 on 1 isos on the perimeter. Thibs continuing to put him in drop coverage is just baffling because he lacks the quickness and instincts to be a rim protector. He's better off guarding up. Once again comes down to knowing how to maximize your players strengths and put them in the best position to be successful.

[RHODEY]

there’s what 20 games left? if the gelling isn’t beginning to happen by now.. it never will

Sometimes it takes longer than one season (see Cavs) especially when injuries are a factor.

The Cavs have 3 very good defenders in their starting lineup though. We literally only have one, OG. Knicks need to get upgrades this summer. Hart, KAT, Brunson are all below average defenders. Mikal is average at best.

Dont think we have one one good defender. When we gentlemen swept the Cavs in the playoffs we started

Mitch
RJ
Hart
Randle
Brunson


Now
Hart
Bridges
OG
Towns
Brunson


On paper we have more defenders.

What change with the Cavs...primarily coaching and health.

What do we change to get the most out of what we have....?

[3toheadmelo]

Against OKC, Boston, Cavs, Lakers, KAT has averaged 16 PPG with a +\- of -11.0. He gets exposed against the top contending teams.

yeah this isn’t a great look

We need to ship him away for Giannis this summer. You can’t win a chip with KAT.

[robillionaire]

post the +\- of everyone in those games.

-11 doesn't seem bad considering we normally lose those games by 20

And he was the only positive plus minus of the starters last night

KAT had 12 points last night 3-13

Still was positive on the court and leads the team in plus minus. I’m not even going to look up to see if that’s true or not

No amount of these hokey stats or disingenuously trying to combine the mikilikina disaster with the towns trade is going to make anybody regret trading Randle ever you may as well just be shouting at a brick wall

[spree2kawhi]

Losing out on Mitchell was blunder #1.

Trading for Mikal was blunder #2.

It baffles me how some of our friends here overthink this.

Mitchell is a borderline MVP candidate who's playing with another small guard and leading the Cavs to the best record in the NBA. Supposedly the Cavs beat our best offer yet the trade would've been destructive for us but not for them? The Grimes package with RJ and 3 firsts was more than fair - if not a bargain - for a player of his caliber.

Meanwhile, Mikal has never been an All-Star, the impact metrics don't particularly fancy him that much, and his defense regressed the season before the Knicks acquired him. And trading 3 unprotected firsts and an unprotected pick swap and a protected first to our crosstown rival for him is reasonable?

I swear it feels like I'm in the twighlight zone at times.

Bridges will be the role player we’ve been looking for soon enough. I cannot understand everybody’s impatience with this roster. Bridges has a long history of being an absolute two-way force. Her, his role and usage are diminished. Let things fall into place. He isn’t even as bad as you all claim after looking at the boxscores. There s still aren’t many players in the league I’d rather put on Steph Curry, maybe nobody.

I don't think Mikal has any history of being a "two-way force".

He was a 3&D role player in Phoenix, their 4th option in their run to the Finals behind Book, CP3 and Ayton.

His role expanded in Brooklyn and he had a few good months when he got there but his game regressed to the mean and fell back down to Earth last season, his ppg even falling below 20.0 despite the Nets' overall lack of talent.

Worse, his 3-point shot and his defense declined significantly.

I don't think he's bad at all. He's an above-average role player who does nothing remarkably well. His best asset now is his switchability but I don't think it's even translating into meaningful defensive impact.

There's nothing forceful about his game or his impact on the court imo.

Like Cohen said on KFS, he's fine but you don't trade your entire draft capital for "fine".

He was on the NBA All Defensive First team in 2022. I guess they were all wrong. And he is still a very good defender, just go and re-watch the game against the Warriors, for example. It’s easy to discard that and point towards erratic shooting. But it’s not a consistent argument. The picks are likely to be very underwhelming and picks in general have lost value and have also become much easier to acquire, this is not 2010 anymore. Times have changed and switchable defenders that you can also trust with the ball in high-pressure situations are very rare. He is automatic from mid-range, and a great slasher. Decent shooter. I’ve expected more, but I’m glad we have him.

[mpharris36]

Read on Twitter

just a reminder we continue to run a majority of drop coverage...

From what I've seen this season KAT is actually not a bad perimeter defender. I've seen multiple times he has held his own 1 on 1 isos on the perimeter. Thibs continuing to put him in drop coverage is just baffling because he lacks the quickness and instincts to be a rim protector. He's better off guarding up. Once again comes down to knowing how to maximize your players strengths and put them in the best position to be successful.

I compare to KAT to a caveman on defense....don't ask him to overcomplicate things...say you switch and guard your man 1 on 1...use your length keep them in front of you and and force somewhat contested jumpers....that is far better than whatever drop coverage we try to run

where either KAT fouls, they get a dunk, or we overhelp on the dunker spot and they get an open corner 3.

I will live with semi-contested step backs and mid ranges in 1 on 1 situations with KAT...he's far better when you just simplify things.

[DaGawd]

Against OKC, Boston, Cavs, Lakers, KAT has averaged 16 PPG with a +\- of -11.0. He gets exposed against the top contending teams.

yeah this isn’t a great look

We need to ship him away for Giannis this summer. You can’t win a chip with KAT.

we have to hope the bucks are as stupid as the mavs

[spree2kawhi]

KAT getting exposed by all the top contenders is extremely worrisome. He looks like one of the best big men in the league against bad teams and then looks very mid against contenders. Mikal does the same thing too. Very sad we went all in on fake stars.

Rest assured they look better than any real option you have suggested for this team.

Yeah they’re better than Giannis and Donovan Mitchell. God your takes are awful.

If I suggest trading for Jokic and SGA, will you be quiet then? what type of logic is that? are we in primary school here?

Again, the trade for Mitchell was only on the table because he and Garland sucked ass together. That has changed because they grew together and didn’t pull the trigger or sell low. Unbelievable, right?

[kNicksGmen]

You can find them on nba.com.

Brunson is averaging 25.8 PPG against those teams while KAT is shtting the bed averaging just 16 PPG. Mikal is also only averaging 13 PPG against those teams. The two guys we went all in on disappear against the best teams in the league. And yall wonder why we’re mid.

how many shots in Kat getting? the offense is "give brunson the ball" of course he's averaging more.

what is JB's +/-? you did the work for Kat, do it for brunson.

last night Kat was -1 and brunson was -8. doesn't exactly fit your narrative.

in those 8 games brunson is -111 (avg -13.9)

Here's the starting 5:
Brunson -111
Kat -98
OG -67 (missed 1 game)
Bridges -145
Hart -125 (missed 1 game)

KAT is averaging 16 PPG and Mikal 13 PPG. They sht the bed against contenders.

on how many shots? here i'll give the full stats:

Brunson - 24.1 PPG on 46.6% on 18.5 FGA / 5.4 ast / 3.4 TO / 2.1 rebounds
Kat - 16.5 PPG on 49.5% on 12.6 FGA / 2.4 ast / 2.2 TO / 11.1 rebounds

Brunson is literally averaging 46% more points on 47% more field goal attempts. Brunson also has 52 FTA compared to 25 for Kat.

edit: i just realized the stats i pulled don't include the lakers game

[3toheadmelo]

And he was the only positive plus minus of the starters last night

KAT had 12 points last night 3-13

Still was positive on the court and leads the team in plus minus. I’m not even going to look up to see if that’s true or not

No amount of these hokey stats or disingenuously trying to combine the mikilikina disaster with the towns trade is going to make anybody regret trading Randle ever you may as well just be shouting at a brick wall

You won’t admit KAT has been the worst defensive C in the league because he went to Kentucky. He’s been getting ripped apart by everyone around the league. Very sad man very sad.

[spree2kawhi]

yeah this isn’t a great look

We need to ship him away for Giannis this summer. You can’t win a chip with KAT.

we have to hope the bucks are as stupid as the mavs

Yeah, that’s very realistic I’m glad we have some real visionaries here coming up with such great ideas. And if they did trade him here, there is not a single poster on this board that wouldn’t appreciate the acquisition. This is just so redundant.

[3toheadmelo]

how many shots in Kat getting? the offense is "give brunson the ball" of course he's averaging more.

what is JB's +/-? you did the work for Kat, do it for brunson.

last night Kat was -1 and brunson was -8. doesn't exactly fit your narrative.

in those 8 games brunson is -111 (avg -13.9)

Here's the starting 5:
Brunson -111
Kat -98
OG -67 (missed 1 game)
Bridges -145
Hart -125 (missed 1 game)

KAT is averaging 16 PPG and Mikal 13 PPG. They sht the bed against contenders.

on how many shots? here i'll give the full stats:

Brunson - 24.1 PPG on 46.6% on 18.5 FGA / 5.4 ast / 3.4 TO / 2.1 rebounds
Kat - 16.5 PPG on 49.5% on 12.6 FGA / 2.4 ast / 2.2 TO / 11.1 rebounds

Brunson is literally averaging 46% more points on 47% more field goal attempts. Brunson also has 52 FTA compared to 25 for Kat.

You need to watch the games. KAT can’t score on teams that switch. His bag is pretty limited against those teams. He’s just spamming spot up 3s or doing straight line drives. That’s exactly what he did against the Mavs in the WCF and it was awful.

[robillionaire]

i agree with your take but the difference was at the time of the mitchell trade the knicks weren't even considered anything close to contending. brunson was still an unknown and not expected to be a star. at the time of the bridges trade there was the combination of the assets losing value and knicks approaching being locked into the roster due to apron restrictions. and fans/people felt the january knicks that were dominant basically just adding bridges would be contenders. the expectation of losing i-hart also forced their hand imo

i'm not defending the trade and like i said i agree in hindsight trading for mitchell was the better move - but the context of where the team was in their timeline was different.

also i am sure if the knicks did trade for mitchell, fans would have defended it as not being an overpay. fans are largely homers at the end of the day so will defend the move the team makes or downplay the move they didn't make etc.

I don’t really accept this first excuse because it’s just admitting that whoever was doing this “considering” of the Knicks not being able to compete, front office or fans or otherwise, and therefore deciding it’s pointless to add Donovan, did not have the foresight to recognize the talent level we had on the team. So if that’s their rationale, we didn’t realize we were sitting on a second round caliber playoff team, well that’s another piece of the blunder puzzle

the Cavs happily did the trade even though they didn’t even make the playoffs. Donovan really and truly is an A list star and the proof is in the pudding. Apparently the move was supposed to ruin them and they have the best record in the NBA.

Your last paragraph is probably true

the other thing i forgot to mention is at the time of the mitchell trade, i think the knicks were still holding out for a bigger name. obviously that never happened but at that point they still felt they might be able to get embiid (yikes) or giannis etc. when they made the bridges trade it was largely them giving up on that.

again i'm not disagreeing with you or you take, just there is some subtle context to the different points in the timeline. the timing of the mitchell trade the team was still in "wait it out" mode, piling up assets and looking to slowly build. the timing of the bridges trade was "we have to go all in now before it's too late".

Man I feel bad that you have to keep saying “not disagreeing” and stuff I like having causal basketball conversations we can disagree about stuff I’m not tryna fight anybody on here like 80% of everyone else is any time you don’t agree with them

Anyway were they holding out for a bigger name? Hard to tell this by their actions. The only real compelling case people have made are that maybe it wouldn’t be a good fit with Brunson or he’d take the ball from him more or Brunson wouldn’t have achieved this level of stardom. I can’t say for sure it wouldn’t have worked but the discussion has some merit.

But at the end of the day we didn’t do the deal so it’s kinda pointless to harp on about a deal we didn’t do. But we did do the Mikal deal and now that it’s looking really sus it kinda flies in the face of what we said in not trading for Donovan. Including holding out for a bigger star

[spree2kawhi]

KAT is averaging 16 PPG and Mikal 13 PPG. They sht the bed against contenders.

on how many shots? here i'll give the full stats:

Brunson - 24.1 PPG on 46.6% on 18.5 FGA / 5.4 ast / 3.4 TO / 2.1 rebounds
Kat - 16.5 PPG on 49.5% on 12.6 FGA / 2.4 ast / 2.2 TO / 11.1 rebounds

Brunson is literally averaging 46% more points on 47% more field goal attempts. Brunson also has 52 FTA compared to 25 for Kat.

You need to watch the games. KAT can’t score on teams that switch. His bag is pretty limited against those teams. He’s just spamming spot up 3s or doing straight line drives. That’s exactly what he did against the Mavs in the WCF and it was awful.

That’s mostly a coaching issue.

[robillionaire]

KAT had 12 points last night 3-13

Still was positive on the court and leads the team in plus minus. I’m not even going to look up to see if that’s true or not

No amount of these hokey stats or disingenuously trying to combine the mikilikina disaster with the towns trade is going to make anybody regret trading Randle ever you may as well just be shouting at a brick wall

You won’t admit KAT has been the worst defensive C in the league because he went to Kentucky. He’s been getting ripped apart by everyone around the league. Very sad man very sad.

Even if I were to play devils advocate and say he’s the worst defensive C in the league it wouldn’t change anything he still has a +303 plus minus which is highest on the team and still an all star starter so frankly I don’t care

Watch on YouTube

[kNicksGmen]

I don’t really accept this first excuse because it’s just admitting that whoever was doing this “considering” of the Knicks not being able to compete, front office or fans or otherwise, and therefore deciding it’s pointless to add Donovan, did not have the foresight to recognize the talent level we had on the team. So if that’s their rationale, we didn’t realize we were sitting on a second round caliber playoff team, well that’s another piece of the blunder puzzle

the Cavs happily did the trade even though they didn’t even make the playoffs. Donovan really and truly is an A list star and the proof is in the pudding. Apparently the move was supposed to ruin them and they have the best record in the NBA.

Your last paragraph is probably true

the other thing i forgot to mention is at the time of the mitchell trade, i think the knicks were still holding out for a bigger name. obviously that never happened but at that point they still felt they might be able to get embiid (yikes) or giannis etc. when they made the bridges trade it was largely them giving up on that.

again i'm not disagreeing with you or you take, just there is some subtle context to the different points in the timeline. the timing of the mitchell trade the team was still in "wait it out" mode, piling up assets and looking to slowly build. the timing of the bridges trade was "we have to go all in now before it's too late".

Man I feel bad that you have to keep saying “not disagreeing” and stuff I like having causal basketball conversations we can disagree about stuff I’m not tryna fight anybody on here like 80% of everyone else is any time you don’t agree with them

Anyway were they holding out for a bigger name? Hard to tell this by their actions. The only real compelling case people have made are that maybe it wouldn’t be a good fit with Brunson or he’d take the ball from him more or Brunson wouldn’t have achieved this level of stardom. I can’t say for sure it wouldn’t have worked but the discussion has some merit.

But at the end of the day we didn’t do the deal so it’s kinda pointless to harp on about a deal we didn’t do. But we did do the Mikal deal and now that it’s looking really sus it kinda flies in the face of what we said in not trading for Donovan. Including holding out for a bigger star

haha fair i just wanted to make it clear because i agree with your overall point - just wanted to give my own opinion trying to play devil's advocate i guess for why they didn't pull the trigger on mitchell but did on bridges. one other factor to consider too which i'm sure you already know - is the whole "friendship nova" nonsense - that was another element that pushed the knicks to get bridges.

but yea it's all hindsight and who knows what subsequent moves would/wouldn't have been made. it is what it is at this point and just like i harp on players knicks passed on in the draft, same as this there isn't really a point other than venting and then we should just move on.

fire thibs!

[spree2kawhi]

Still was positive on the court and leads the team in plus minus. I’m not even going to look up to see if that’s true or not

No amount of these hokey stats or disingenuously trying to combine the mikilikina disaster with the towns trade is going to make anybody regret trading Randle ever you may as well just be shouting at a brick wall

You won’t admit KAT has been the worst defensive C in the league because he went to Kentucky. He’s been getting ripped apart by everyone around the league. Very sad man very sad.

Even if I were to play devils advocate and say he’s the worst defensive C in the league it wouldn’t change anything he still has a +303 plus minus which is highest on the team and still an all star starter so frankly I don’t care

Watch on YouTube

But the January 2024 team was better.