PG: Tank L Kids W

[DOT]

Fournier is having a better season than I expected

Honestly, I don't absolutely hate what he brings as a player

He's 5th in made 3s in the NBA this year, and our only guy who makes more than 2 a game (he makes just over 3, RJ and Kemba make 2 per), and he can shoot off the catch or off the dribble (40% on c&s 3s with 5 attempts a night, 37% on pull-up 3s with 3 attempts a night), and he's not a terrible playmaker either

His defense sucks, but you can get around one bad defensive guy, it's just we have multiple on the floor at all times, so it kinda sticks out

But he is overpaid, and we're not in a position where him being overpaid isn't an issue.

[TrueWarrior]

Fournier is having a better season than I expected

Honestly, I don't absolutely hate what he brings as a player

He's 5th in made 3s in the NBA this year, and our only guy who makes more than 2 a game (he makes just over 3, RJ and Kemba make 2 per), and he can shoot off the catch or off the dribble (40% on c&s 3s with 5 attempts a night, 37% on pull-up 3s with 3 attempts a night), and he's not a terrible playmaker either

His defense sucks, but you can get around one bad defensive guy, it's just we have multiple on the floor at all times, so it kinda sticks out

But he is overpaid, and we're not in a position where him being overpaid isn't an issue.

Evan would be a wonderful 6th/7th man. Think THJ. He’s just a bit overpaid for that, but not terribly if he keeps this up. His D is too bad to start on a good team, but no denying his O.

[cgf]

Wrote this elsewhere for some canuckleheads that I used to talk hockey with. #s are either from this ringer article ( https://www.theringer.com/nba/2022/3/22/22989504/nba-lottery-teams-knicks-spurs-rockets ) or can be figured out just from perusing Barrett's gamelog:


Efficiency as a self-creator will be the next step for RJ and the one that will ultimately determine if he can become a title-caliber Robin someday, but since the new year, Barrett has been averaging around 24ppg, 6rpg, & 3.5apg (vs 2.5TOs).

...doing so by shooting 38% from 3 & increasing his pts/drive (.524 vs .594), while almost doubling his drives per game (8.2 vs 16). Finally confident at this level in his handle, footwork, & offhand, the 21yo Barrett no longer looks like a robot on the court.

He even had a strong showing without Julius last night; when he went 10-19 (3-7 from 3) for 30pts, 3rebs, 3asts, 1stl, & 2TOs, while leading us to a wire-to-wire win over Charlotte...in the prior 3 games w/o Randle (against ATL, TOR, & OKC) RJ had struggled; going 4-20 from 3, posting 13 TOs to just 9 assists, and combining for -30 as "the man" in those 3 previous Randle-less performances.


So far it's a minuscule sample size and he was only really good in 1 of those 4 matches without Julius...that one coming against a hornets squad that seemed to have little interest in playing any defense on the night...but the kid just keeps developing faster than I hoped he would; so why shouldn't learning to create efficiently, come to him much quicker than I expect?

[cgf]

Fournier is having a better season than I expected

Honestly, I don't absolutely hate what he brings as a player

He's 5th in made 3s in the NBA this year, and our only guy who makes more than 2 a game (he makes just over 3, RJ and Kemba make 2 per), and he can shoot off the catch or off the dribble (40% on c&s 3s with 5 attempts a night, 37% on pull-up 3s with 3 attempts a night), and he's not a terrible playmaker either

His defense sucks, but you can get around one bad defensive guy, it's just we have multiple on the floor at all times, so it kinda sticks out

But he is overpaid, and we're not in a position where him being overpaid isn't an issue.

Evan would be a wonderful 6th/7th man. Think THJ. He’s just a bit overpaid for that, but not terribly if he keeps this up. His D is too bad to start on a good team, but no denying his O.

Neither Fournier nor Burks is a truly terrible player. Both just have certain limitations that don't work well on a team that needs to carve out its advantage on the defense end, and their strengths overlap too much with Grimes & Quickley's. So unless we do nothing at PG this summer & go into next season starting IQ there...after drafting a big with our FRP...keeping both Burks & Fournier would block our kids too much.

Even with just one of them, bringing a competent PG in...or drafting a 1-3 with our FRP...would mean one of our kids being stuck outside of the rotation at full-health:

new-PG | Rose | McBride
Fournier* | Quickley | Grimes
Barrett | Grimes | Reddish
*or Burks
-----------------------
Quickley | Rose | McBride
Fournier* | Grimes | '22 FRP
Barrett | Reddish | '22 FRP
*or Burks

Which wouldn't be the end of the world given that injuries are a thing...but if we kept both veteran wings and brought in a PG, things would get too crowded, real quick.

[DOT]

Wrote this elsewhere for some canuckleheads that I used to talk hockey with. #s are either from this ringer article ( https://www.theringer.com/nba/2022/3/22/22989504/nba-lottery-teams-knicks-spurs-rockets ) or can be figured out just from perusing Barrett's gamelog:


Efficiency as a self-creator will be the next step for RJ and the one that will ultimately determine if he can become a title-caliber Robin someday, but since the new year, Barrett has been averaging around 24ppg, 6rpg, & 3.5apg (vs 2.5TOs).

...doing so by shooting 38% from 3 & increasing his pts/drive (.524 vs .594), while almost doubling his drives per game (8.2 vs 16). Finally confident at this level in his handle, footwork, & offhand, the 21yo Barrett no longer looks like a robot on the court.

He even had a strong showing without Julius last night; when he went 10-19 (3-7 from 3) for 30pts, 3rebs, 3asts, 1stl, & 2TOs, while leading us to a wire-to-wire win over Charlotte...in the prior 3 games w/o Randle (against ATL, TOR, & OKC) RJ had struggled; going 4-20 from 3, posting 13 TOs to just 9 assists, and combining for -30 as "the man" in those 3 previous Randle-less performances.


So far it's a minuscule sample size and he was only really good in 1 of those 4 matches without Julius...that one coming against a hornets squad that seemed to have little interest in playing any defense on the night...but the kid just keeps developing faster than I hoped he would; so why shouldn't learning to create efficiently, come to him much quicker than I expect?

From that article:

(Those facilitation numbers might look even better if Obi Toppin, Immanuel Quickley, Quentin Grimes, and Cam Reddish weren’t shooting a combined 5-for-45 from 3 off of his passes since the calendar flipped.)

Oof.

[Nazrmohamed]

Yes, hiring Thibs and drafting Obi at the same time was a fail, but just fellate Obi and get it over with

The only thing I'd say in defense of drafting Obi vs Julius and I'm not gonna give FO too much credit is remember. The yr they drafted Obi Randle had underperformed. Remember we sortve felt about Randle that yr as we do this yr and I think going into that yr it was the last yr of his contract if we didn't extend him. Also take into account Obi was like 22 at the time and just won CPOTY. Still though, no matter what age you're drafted there's a learning process as a Rookie.

In other words I'm sure the Knicks felt we'd draft Obi and then by his second yr he'd be ramped up and ready to start, at which point we simply wouldn't resign Randle. Then Randle had his MIP season and Thibs got the roster to overachieve.


So from that POV it isn't crazy. I just think it's crazy within the context of us desperately needing a PG and that player being right there for the taking and we passed on them. And technically 2 when you consider Cole Anthony buy I wasn't enamored by Cole like I was about Haliburton.

Correct, Randle was probably viewed as a disappointment with only one guaranteed year left on his contract so they drafted Obi to replace him. Then Randle blew up for one season.

Still, drafting a player whose playing style does not match Thibs coaching style in any way was still a fail.

I think Obi can be a really good ancillary player that averages 15 PPG getting easy buckets in an uptempo offense that moves the ball like we just saw with Randle on the bench.

The young guys like playing with Obi. They don't like playing with Randle. That doesn't make Obi a stud, but it does mean he's a better fit. Randle is a monkey wrench to a well-run offense and he does jack on defense now. Obi tries to play defense even if he's up and down there.

They should have drafted a PG. I always feel that way. No knock on Obi, but roster building is about fit and needs, something this franchise fails at with regularity.

Exactly he doesn't fit and I really don't like that he doesn't fit because I like that style of play. And it's not like we're not like Thibs isn't capable. I mean look at the last 2 nights. One loss and one win but in both they were exciting games, lots of energy lots of pace and guys having fun

I imagine everyone coming around Thibs all excited and him shutting it down like " it's still not good basketball". There are coaches who actually believe that. That actually believe pace and space is still bad basketball. That still believe you use up the shotclock and make the defense work with tons of route running (which I like too) but toward the end of the clock. That still subscribe to hero ball. I mean, I remember the Knicks coming off a 50 win season and Phil saying it was a clumsy style of basketball.

AndI get that perhaps at the highest levels of basketball you can't rely on it. I mean, CP3 is the best pick and role PG I've ever known and he don't have a title, Nash don't have a title, Stockton has no titles. But I also belive you gotta look beyond coaching to a style of play you don't have the players for. What he wants to do you'll actually lose while being an idealist and in reality because you lose you can't attract those better players or build up enough value in the players you have.

I mean fans and GMs are smart but you think if Obi is having games like this every night or maybe even 1 in 3 and the others he's around 13pts.....maybe averaging 14 and 6 in a consistent 20minutes. Even if you're smart enough to realize it isn't the highest skilled level of basketball like what a Gasol can do. You mean to tell me you can't at least sell Obi as an exciting young player around the league? Well to Thibs that's not his damn problem

[2010]

I just saw this. Wth

I actually like the fire, maybe doesn’t need to go as demonstrative if that’s an issue for anyone. I wouldn’t take it personally.

I just wish he called out everybody.

Read on Twitter

Punk ass Thibs would never show out like that when Randle blows a defensive rotation. Thibs is Mr. coaching you hard only with young players.

[Knicksfan1992]

SG/SF that make 15-25 million a year (per Spotrac)

Buddy Hield
Tim Hardaway Jr.
Gary Harris
Zach LaVine
Eric Gordon
Bogdan Bogdanovic
Caris LeVert
Joe Harris
Evan Fournier
Gary Trent Jr.
Norman Powell
Harrison Barnes
Bojan Bogdanovic
OG Anunoby
Davis Bertans
Duncan Robinson
Marcus Morris Sr.
Will Barton

Fournier isn't completely overpaid. He's properly paid given what the market has determined the type of player that gets paid in that range. It's just that that range seems to have wings that are 1-2 tools away from being elite all-star level players...It's kind of the range of the frustrating good player...

People, myself included, tend to kill Fournier moreso than other guys because he'll have his disappearing acts and it's glaring how bad he can be defensively when he's missing shots... So it all tends to go to chit when he has a bad game But for the most part since the end of December he's been really good offensively and he's an ELITE shooter both off the dribble and as a movement off-the ball shooter.

[K_ick_God]

Sometimes there is so much discussion and picking things apart - in basketball and life - but often it makes you miss the easy stuff. Like ... while Obi isn't some genius basketball player, he doesn't dribble much. That is big. The more cutting and passing and the less dribbling, the better your team will be. Randle is a dribble heavy player. RJ needs to watch that too.

I would bet that if you counted dribbles after the halfcourt, it would have an inverse relationship to wins.

[Nazrmohamed]

Wrote this elsewhere for some canuckleheads that I used to talk hockey with. #s are either from this ringer article ( https://www.theringer.com/nba/2022/3/22/22989504/nba-lottery-teams-knicks-spurs-rockets ) or can be figured out just from perusing Barrett's gamelog:


Efficiency as a self-creator will be the next step for RJ and the one that will ultimately determine if he can become a title-caliber Robin someday, but since the new year, Barrett has been averaging around 24ppg, 6rpg, & 3.5apg (vs 2.5TOs).

...doing so by shooting 38% from 3 & increasing his pts/drive (.524 vs .594), while almost doubling his drives per game (8.2 vs 16). Finally confident at this level in his handle, footwork, & offhand, the 21yo Barrett no longer looks like a robot on the court.

He even had a strong showing without Julius last night; when he went 10-19 (3-7 from 3) for 30pts, 3rebs, 3asts, 1stl, & 2TOs, while leading us to a wire-to-wire win over Charlotte...in the prior 3 games w/o Randle (against ATL, TOR, & OKC) RJ had struggled; going 4-20 from 3, posting 13 TOs to just 9 assists, and combining for -30 as "the man" in those 3 previous Randle-less performances.


So far it's a minuscule sample size and he was only really good in 1 of those 4 matches without Julius...that one coming against a hornets squad that seemed to have little interest in playing any defense on the night...but the kid just keeps developing faster than I hoped he would; so why shouldn't learning to create efficiently, come to him much quicker than I expect?

From that article:

(Those facilitation numbers might look even better if Obi Toppin, Immanuel Quickley, Quentin Grimes, and Cam Reddish weren’t shooting a combined 5-for-45 from 3 off of his passes since the calendar flipped.)

Oof.

Could be how he gets it to them though and I'm not trying to bash him. Skill vs will is more the skill aspect of it but you gotta keep putting him in those situations and it'll come and guys will actually learn to play off him. Remember, it took Fournier half a season to learn Randle. So it'll take time for guys to learn RJs tendencies as a playmaker and RJ to learn thier spots as shot makers.

It is a bit sobering knowing it's against the Hornets and thier poor defense but you can only play the team on the schedule and there's no doubt there's an energy about them in Randles absence.

[Clyde_Style]

The only thing I'd say in defense of drafting Obi vs Julius and I'm not gonna give FO too much credit is remember. The yr they drafted Obi Randle had underperformed. Remember we sortve felt about Randle that yr as we do this yr and I think going into that yr it was the last yr of his contract if we didn't extend him. Also take into account Obi was like 22 at the time and just won CPOTY. Still though, no matter what age you're drafted there's a learning process as a Rookie.

In other words I'm sure the Knicks felt we'd draft Obi and then by his second yr he'd be ramped up and ready to start, at which point we simply wouldn't resign Randle. Then Randle had his MIP season and Thibs got the roster to overachieve.


So from that POV it isn't crazy. I just think it's crazy within the context of us desperately needing a PG and that player being right there for the taking and we passed on them. And technically 2 when you consider Cole Anthony buy I wasn't enamored by Cole like I was about Haliburton.

Correct, Randle was probably viewed as a disappointment with only one guaranteed year left on his contract so they drafted Obi to replace him. Then Randle blew up for one season.

Still, drafting a player whose playing style does not match Thibs coaching style in any way was still a fail.

I think Obi can be a really good ancillary player that averages 15 PPG getting easy buckets in an uptempo offense that moves the ball like we just saw with Randle on the bench.

The young guys like playing with Obi. They don't like playing with Randle. That doesn't make Obi a stud, but it does mean he's a better fit. Randle is a monkey wrench to a well-run offense and he does jack on defense now. Obi tries to play defense even if he's up and down there.

They should have drafted a PG. I always feel that way. No knock on Obi, but roster building is about fit and needs, something this franchise fails at with regularity.

Exactly he doesn't fit and I really don't like that he doesn't fit because I like that style of play. And it's not like we're not like Thibs isn't capable. I mean look at the last 2 nights. One loss and one win but in both they were exciting games, lots of energy lots of pace and guys having fun

I imagine everyone coming around Thibs all excited and him shutting it down like " it's still not good basketball". There are coaches who actually believe that. That actually believe pace and space is still bad basketball. That still believe you use up the shotclock and make the defense work with tons of route running (which I like too) but toward the end of the clock. That still subscribe to hero ball. I mean, I remember the Knicks coming off a 50 win season and Phil saying it was a clumsy style of basketball.

AndI get that perhaps at the highest levels of basketball you can't rely on it. I mean, CP3 is the best pick and role PG I've ever known and he don't have a title, Nash don't have a title, Stockton has no titles. But I also belive you gotta look beyond coaching to a style of play you don't have the players for. What he wants to do you'll actually lose while being an idealist and in reality because you lose you can't attract those better players or build up enough value in the players you have.

I mean fans and GMs are smart but you think if Obi is having games like this every night or maybe even 1 in 3 and the others he's around 13pts.....maybe averaging 14 and 6 in a consistent 20minutes. Even if you're smart enough to realize it isn't the highest skilled level of basketball like what a Gasol can do. You mean to tell me you can't at least sell Obi as an exciting young player around the league? Well to Thibs that's not his damn problem

It does highlight what an albatross player Randle is though, because even with Thibs massive shortcomings he still has to play the players he is given. The last two games shows what happens if you remove Randle from the lineup. For this reason, if I had to prioritize which of Randle and Thibs I'd prefer to be removed from the equation, the answer is 100% get Randle out of here this off-season.

Then you can keep building and make Thibs deal with that.

[Nazrmohamed]

The only thing I'd say in defense of drafting Obi vs Julius and I'm not gonna give FO too much credit is remember. The yr they drafted Obi Randle had underperformed. Remember we sortve felt about Randle that yr as we do this yr and I think going into that yr it was the last yr of his contract if we didn't extend him. Also take into account Obi was like 22 at the time and just won CPOTY. Still though, no matter what age you're drafted there's a learning process as a Rookie.

In other words I'm sure the Knicks felt we'd draft Obi and then by his second yr he'd be ramped up and ready to start, at which point we simply wouldn't resign Randle. Then Randle had his MIP season and Thibs got the roster to overachieve.


So from that POV it isn't crazy. I just think it's crazy within the context of us desperately needing a PG and that player being right there for the taking and we passed on them. And technically 2 when you consider Cole Anthony buy I wasn't enamored by Cole like I was about Haliburton.

Correct, Randle was probably viewed as a disappointment with only one guaranteed year left on his contract so they drafted Obi to replace him. Then Randle blew up for one season.

Still, drafting a player whose playing style does not match Thibs coaching style in any way was still a fail.

I think Obi can be a really good ancillary player that averages 15 PPG getting easy buckets in an uptempo offense that moves the ball like we just saw with Randle on the bench.

The young guys like playing with Obi. They don't like playing with Randle. That doesn't make Obi a stud, but it does mean he's a better fit. Randle is a monkey wrench to a well-run offense and he does jack on defense now. Obi tries to play defense even if he's up and down there.

They should have drafted a PG. I always feel that way. No knock on Obi, but roster building is about fit and needs, something this franchise fails at with regularity.

It's still that visionary fail. Either you should have an idea what Randle is about or not. Meaning, not be sold on him before he blows up, or are sold. I get humans are involved, nothing is perfect. Then Randle goes and has what could be an outlier year. Knicks go all in, HARD. Now Randle has appeared to have reverted, possibly worse.

Good GM's, that can properly scout their own players and the league, are supposed to avoid stuff like this. So, even if we throw away the issues around the draft/Thibs/Randle, it still leaves a big fail around the proper assessment of Randle.

Then again, Scott Perry and Zanin are the guys who are theoretically in charge of knowing stuff like that and Perry's track record is of sucking balls at pro player scouting and apparently Zanin is right there with him.

Yeah but what now? Fans have been almost purposely ignoring the fact that Julius too has been playing better since the allstar game, Fournier has as well, youngins are playing, Thibs is the one coaching these games. That's what pisses me off so much. If they only gave this effort and strategy the whole yr I mightve actually believed in them. Now I gotta worry about getting fooled

[cgf]

Wrote this elsewhere for some canuckleheads that I used to talk hockey with. #s are either from this ringer article ( https://www.theringer.com/nba/2022/3/22/22989504/nba-lottery-teams-knicks-spurs-rockets ) or can be figured out just from perusing Barrett's gamelog:


Efficiency as a self-creator will be the next step for RJ and the one that will ultimately determine if he can become a title-caliber Robin someday, but since the new year, Barrett has been averaging around 24ppg, 6rpg, & 3.5apg (vs 2.5TOs).

...doing so by shooting 38% from 3 & increasing his pts/drive (.524 vs .594), while almost doubling his drives per game (8.2 vs 16). Finally confident at this level in his handle, footwork, & offhand, the 21yo Barrett no longer looks like a robot on the court.

He even had a strong showing without Julius last night; when he went 10-19 (3-7 from 3) for 30pts, 3rebs, 3asts, 1stl, & 2TOs, while leading us to a wire-to-wire win over Charlotte...in the prior 3 games w/o Randle (against ATL, TOR, & OKC) RJ had struggled; going 4-20 from 3, posting 13 TOs to just 9 assists, and combining for -30 as "the man" in those 3 previous Randle-less performances.


So far it's a minuscule sample size and he was only really good in 1 of those 4 matches without Julius...that one coming against a hornets squad that seemed to have little interest in playing any defense on the night...but the kid just keeps developing faster than I hoped he would; so why shouldn't learning to create efficiently, come to him much quicker than I expect?

From that article:

(Those facilitation numbers might look even better if Obi Toppin, Immanuel Quickley, Quentin Grimes, and Cam Reddish weren’t shooting a combined 5-for-45 from 3 off of his passes since the calendar flipped.)

Oof.

Yeah, that was interesting...but a) sample size, and b) I don't love putting too much weight into potential assists, given that creating open looks which your teammates can actually hit, is a big part of creating shots for them.


To illustrate my issues with that metric; Julius puts up really impressive potential assist#s and (IMO) that says a lot more about Julius' passing accuracy & control as a playmaker, than it does about his luck...as a lot of those potential assists don't turn into real assists because guys have to reach-for/chase-down those passes rather than receiving them right where they should be to C&S in a single motion; while others remain just potential-assists because those missed 3s are coming from the guys that the opponent wants Julius dumping the ball out to.

With comparable usage & the same teammates, Garland has always done a much better job than Sexton of converting his potential assists into real assists. That's because Garland is simply a much better playmaker & floor general; so he does a better job of creating the right looks for the right guys, while delivering better passes...not because the exact same shooters were lucky for one & unlucky for the other.

And there is a similar thing to the Garland / Sexton dynamic happening with Giddey / SGA atm; where the former is doing a significantly better job of converting potential-assists into real ones than the latter, despite feeding the exact same bad shooters.


So while those potential assist#s are also encouraging; they tell me more about the attention that RJ's growing gravity is attracting, or how his passing/playmaking still needs to mature more, than they do what he would be posting if only his luck regressed to the mean.

[Clyde_Style]

Sometimes there is so much discussion and picking things apart - in basketball and life - but often it makes you miss the easy stuff. Like ... while Obi isn't some genius basketball player, he doesn't dribble much. That is big. The more cutting and passing and the less dribbling, the better your team will be. Randle is a dribble heavy player. RJ needs to watch that too.

I would bet that if you counted dribbles after the halfcourt, it would have an inverse relationship to wins.

Obi is not a ball stopper. He does not contribute to the too many cooks in the kitchen issue the club has with Randle and RJ on the floor together while trying to puzzle out the PG situation which should require a high usage player by default.

Obi works because he's opportunistic. It doesn't require any deep analysis to justify why that can be a high efficiency benefit to any club if they get their other priorities straightened out.

[thebuzzardman]

Correct, Randle was probably viewed as a disappointment with only one guaranteed year left on his contract so they drafted Obi to replace him. Then Randle blew up for one season.

Still, drafting a player whose playing style does not match Thibs coaching style in any way was still a fail.

I think Obi can be a really good ancillary player that averages 15 PPG getting easy buckets in an uptempo offense that moves the ball like we just saw with Randle on the bench.

The young guys like playing with Obi. They don't like playing with Randle. That doesn't make Obi a stud, but it does mean he's a better fit. Randle is a monkey wrench to a well-run offense and he does jack on defense now. Obi tries to play defense even if he's up and down there.

They should have drafted a PG. I always feel that way. No knock on Obi, but roster building is about fit and needs, something this franchise fails at with regularity.

It's still that visionary fail. Either you should have an idea what Randle is about or not. Meaning, not be sold on him before he blows up, or are sold. I get humans are involved, nothing is perfect. Then Randle goes and has what could be an outlier year. Knicks go all in, HARD. Now Randle has appeared to have reverted, possibly worse.

Good GM's, that can properly scout their own players and the league, are supposed to avoid stuff like this. So, even if we throw away the issues around the draft/Thibs/Randle, it still leaves a big fail around the proper assessment of Randle.

Then again, Scott Perry and Zanin are the guys who are theoretically in charge of knowing stuff like that and Perry's track record is of sucking balls at pro player scouting and apparently Zanin is right there with him.

Yeah but what now? Fans have been almost purposely ignoring the fact that Julius too has been playing better since the allstar game, Fournier has as well, youngins are playing, Thibs is the one coaching these games. That's what pisses me off so much. If they only gave this effort and strategy the whole yr I mightve actually believed in them. Now I gotta worry about getting fooled

It's another layer of what to do with Randle.

Randle has talent. He's capable of buying in and playing a certain way, and somehow that happened last year. Was it a contract year? Kenny Payne? Woodson? Thibs? All of the above being necessary and now jenga blocks got removed?

I guess we'll have to wait a year and see how Randle plays next year. I'll admit to giving up on him since this feels like a hard revert to the version of him that was present under Fizzle, but with extra star in his mind baggage. But maybe it's not all that.

Even if Randle got right in the head, I'm not sure a kind of ball dominant 4 who isn't older LeBron is the way to build the team.

[KnixtapeH20]

Correct, Randle was probably viewed as a disappointment with only one guaranteed year left on his contract so they drafted Obi to replace him. Then Randle blew up for one season.

Still, drafting a player whose playing style does not match Thibs coaching style in any way was still a fail.

I think Obi can be a really good ancillary player that averages 15 PPG getting easy buckets in an uptempo offense that moves the ball like we just saw with Randle on the bench.

The young guys like playing with Obi. They don't like playing with Randle. That doesn't make Obi a stud, but it does mean he's a better fit. Randle is a monkey wrench to a well-run offense and he does jack on defense now. Obi tries to play defense even if he's up and down there.

They should have drafted a PG. I always feel that way. No knock on Obi, but roster building is about fit and needs, something this franchise fails at with regularity.

It's still that visionary fail. Either you should have an idea what Randle is about or not. Meaning, not be sold on him before he blows up, or are sold. I get humans are involved, nothing is perfect. Then Randle goes and has what could be an outlier year. Knicks go all in, HARD. Now Randle has appeared to have reverted, possibly worse.

Good GM's, that can properly scout their own players and the league, are supposed to avoid stuff like this. So, even if we throw away the issues around the draft/Thibs/Randle, it still leaves a big fail around the proper assessment of Randle.

Then again, Scott Perry and Zanin are the guys who are theoretically in charge of knowing stuff like that and Perry's track record is of sucking balls at pro player scouting and apparently Zanin is right there with him.

Yeah but what now? Fans have been almost purposely ignoring the fact that Julius too has been playing better since the allstar game, Fournier has as well, youngins are playing, Thibs is the one coaching these games. That's what pisses me off so much. If they only gave this effort and strategy the whole yr I mightve actually believed in them. Now I gotta worry about getting fooled

I mean playing better since the ASG wheb u were playing like one of the worst players in the league, hands down the worst starter, can u really play worse? And his behavior hasn't been better so I don't agree really at all

[KnixtapeH20]

Last night was the kind of game that we should probably expect from Obi as a regular, especially if we can find a PG. In the two games that he started during the Covid-19 stretch, he was reasonably effective despite the fact that we had no PG on the floor and no one looking to set him up. I've read comparisons to Kenny Walker with Obi - but Walker hurt his back (in I think in his rookie year) and was never the same. Obi has work to do on his game but I see no reason why he couldn't become an Aaron Gordon type player (for a more contemporary comparison) - especially if he can improve his three point shooting.

Just think of how many easy points we missed not being able to get him the ball on the fast breaks.

Thats why we need a great passing pg or just any pg with vision, hi Deuce.

[cgf]

It's still that visionary fail. Either you should have an idea what Randle is about or not. Meaning, not be sold on him before he blows up, or are sold. I get humans are involved, nothing is perfect. Then Randle goes and has what could be an outlier year. Knicks go all in, HARD. Now Randle has appeared to have reverted, possibly worse.

Good GM's, that can properly scout their own players and the league, are supposed to avoid stuff like this. So, even if we throw away the issues around the draft/Thibs/Randle, it still leaves a big fail around the proper assessment of Randle.

Then again, Scott Perry and Zanin are the guys who are theoretically in charge of knowing stuff like that and Perry's track record is of sucking balls at pro player scouting and apparently Zanin is right there with him.

Yeah but what now? Fans have been almost purposely ignoring the fact that Julius too has been playing better since the allstar game, Fournier has as well, youngins are playing, Thibs is the one coaching these games. That's what pisses me off so much. If they only gave this effort and strategy the whole yr I mightve actually believed in them. Now I gotta worry about getting fooled

It's another layer of what to do with Randle.

Randle has talent. He's capable of buying in and playing a certain way, and somehow that happened last year. Was it a contract year? Kenny Payne? Woodson? Thibs? All of the above being necessary and now jenga blocks got removed?

I guess we'll have to wait a year and see how Randle plays next year. I'll admit to giving up on him since this feels like a hard revert to the version of him that was present under Fizzle, but with extra star in his mind baggage. But maybe it's not all that.

Even if Randle got right in the head, I'm not sure a kind of ball dominant 4 who isn't older LeBron is the way to build the team.

Maybe we get lucky and pre-February-Randle ends up being the outlier that was the result of Julius just letting the frustration get the better of him while he was adapting to teams coming in prepared to stifle him and getting used to trying to win with our new backcourt...with all of the defensive issues it came with...leading to Julius thriving again once it's RJ that teams are strategizing around stopping, and we've brought in a capable PG to help both of our playmaking forwards structure this thing?

...maybe...

[El Poochio]

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Thought this was an alternative reality that Knicks signed Lonzo Ball for a min

[Jalen Bluntson]

I've been calling for this for a while.

Rim protection will suffer, but the team's foot speed on defense, and the offense will be much more potent.

It will be difficult for big centers to chase Randle around and contest his 3's.

His D is bad and he's still gonna dribble lol. I don't see it. I think he's just an addition by subtraction guy.

Right. I'm with you all day.

But if we can't find any takers in a trade, we have to shake things up to make Julius, and the team, better on offense.

Opposing centers have to stick with Randle on the perimeter, where he clearly has the advantage and takes the shot-blocker away from the rim.

This. If they can't trade him... put him in a better position for the TEAM to play better as opposed to letting him get his while the team suffers.