Knicks Core vs. Nets Core

[TKF]

tkf with all due respect you are not being quite so evenhanded as you customarily are. what if any are robin lopez's positive attributes? i see a basketball player who, while not so athletic as lee, still has a better set of basketball skills coming into the league than david lee possesses. maybe things are evening out but you make lee sound like james worthy and you make lopez seem like a stiff.

with the main thrust of the thread in mind, who in your opinion would make for a better piece of a core, lopez or lee?

I didn't know that this was a give brook some love session. I thought we were comparing players, I am only making lee seem like the player he has been for the past 4 years. We are talking about athlticism at this point right? well IMO.. Lee is closer to worthy athletically, and lopez is closer to stiff. that is just my opinion.....

Now if you are asking me too to say something positive about lopez, just to make lopez fans feel better , well sure... He is tall, pretty strong....ahhhh.. tall(or did I say that already).. has a nice set of skills around the basket, better than guys like dalembert and Noah for sure. Do I think he is or will be anything more than a good center, not really. I think his slow reaction time around the hoop and his lack lift will just limit him, I just don't see tremendous upside without those things... But in his defense his skillset will always make him a better player than more athletic guys like noah, and dalembert for sure...

[Rockice_8]

Look we can argue this until we're blue in the face but how many GM's do you think would take Lee over Lopez. . . . NONE

90% of Knick fans would take Lopez over Lee let alone unbiased fans. Look I like D. Lee and would love to have him on my team along side Lopez that would be a great front court. What I don't want is him instead of Lopez. Look at the previuos post from your fellow Knick fans they know what they're talkin about. If Lopez was a Knick you'd probably be anointing him the second coming of Ewing, but he's he's a Net so we'll just bash him all we can.

[K_ick_God]

Look we can argue this until we're blue in the face but how many GM's do you think would take Lee over Lopez. . . . NONE

90% of Knick fans would take Lopez over Lee let alone unbiased fans. Look I like D. Lee and would love to have him on my team along side Lopez that would be a great front court. What I don't want is him instead of Lopez. Look at the previuos post from your fellow Knick fans they know what they're talkin about. If Lopez was a Knick you'd probably be anointing him the second coming of Ewing, but he's he's a Net so we'll just bash him all we can.

It's too early to say.

[TKF]

tkf with all due respect you are not being quite so evenhanded as you customarily are. what if any are robin lopez's positive attributes? i see a basketball player who, while not so athletic as lee, still has a better set of basketball skills coming into the league than david lee possesses. maybe things are evening out but you make lee sound like james worthy and you make lopez seem like a stiff.

with the main thrust of the thread in mind, who in your opinion would make for a better piece of a core, lopez or lee?

TKF won't give an inch to a lot of players in this league. Players he doesn't think are all that good

Arenas
Iguodola
CDR
Hedo
Dunleavy
Rondo
Harris
Lopez
Monta
A. Randolph
Fernandez
Oden
Josh Smith
Deron Williams
Ariza
Jordan

When your Rap Sheet starts collecting up like this you gotta start wondering what's the angle. Highly critical and suspicious of all these players at one time or another

where did you get that from? It is noted that I said this guy is the best to ever play the game.. what are you talking about.. are we now making things up? As far as deron, you are lying again.. I am not a fan of the guy, but never did I say he wasn't good, or even a top guard in this league.. you need to get your lies straight bra.... Putting jordan on that list just makes you to be a liar, and really why stoop that low? Don't even participate if you have to do that.. for real..

The rest of the guys, there is a very good reason why I don't like them, why don't you put that list of guys against the guys I like in this league, and it won't take a rocket scientist figure out why I like who I like.....

[TKF]

Look we can argue this until we're blue in the face but how many GM's do you think would take Lee over Lopez. . . . NONE

90% of Knick fans would take Lopez over Lee let alone unbiased fans. Look I like D. Lee and would love to have him on my team along side Lopez that would be a great front court. What I don't want is him instead of Lopez. Look at the previuos post from your fellow Knick fans they know what they're talkin about. If Lopez was a Knick you'd probably be anointing him the second coming of Ewing, but he's he's a Net so we'll just bash him all we can.

because we don't think he is Tim duncan, that is bashing? why take the woe is me tone. some of us just don't see the great upside you do....If so, don't you think a 7 footer in a draft void of bigs would have gone higher? just answer that? why should the fans not see what other GM's saw? If you believe he will be great, then fine. If you want him over lee, then fine... making false polls and throwing out unproven percentages will not change the minds of those who feel otherwise.... it is just that simple..

[dk7th]

tkf with all due respect you are not being quite so evenhanded as you customarily are. what if any are robin lopez's positive attributes? i see a basketball player who, while not so athletic as lee, still has a better set of basketball skills coming into the league than david lee possesses. maybe things are evening out but you make lee sound like james worthy and you make lopez seem like a stiff.

with the main thrust of the thread in mind, who in your opinion would make for a better piece of a core, lopez or lee?

I think it's more like he thinks Lee is a solid, borderline allstar and Lopez isn't. Depending on your core and the type of team you're working with, you pick which piece. Brook didn't get love from D'antoni because he doesn't fit the system, but if you're the Bulls it's gotta be Brook... and on and on with these picks. Lopez has to get a double this year to honestly say he has a better skillset all around, someone said he's better in almost every facet of the game and that just isn't true.

of course context vis a vis "what system is the player being drafted for" is critical here, no doubt. in this sense you are spot on so far as lopez not fitting into d'antoni ball. but then again is lee that much of a d'antoni type of player? well sort of since the pick and roll is crucial but he still has a ways to go with the midrange shot though it has gotten a little better. i don't believe that lee is an all-star level player just yet--but then again i think the whole all-star thing is a crock of shyte generally.

core players: that's an issue of what player has the type of skills and level of said skills that allow that player to mesh and create synergy with the other core players towards becoming a title-contending team.

right?

lee to his credit is learning but he to my mind is "an energy guy off the bench" not an all-star, while to my way of thinking lopez is going to exceed lee in the next several seasons. i happen to not think so highly of harris and i believe the lack of orchestrating abilities on harris's part will hinder the nets from becoming successful as well as hindering lopez's ability to be as effective as possible.

[Rockice_8]

Look we can argue this until we're blue in the face but how many GM's do you think would take Lee over Lopez. . . . NONE

90% of Knick fans would take Lopez over Lee let alone unbiased fans. Look I like D. Lee and would love to have him on my team along side Lopez that would be a great front court. What I don't want is him instead of Lopez. Look at the previuos post from your fellow Knick fans they know what they're talkin about. If Lopez was a Knick you'd probably be anointing him the second coming of Ewing, but he's he's a Net so we'll just bash him all we can.

It's too early to say.

No on October 26, 2009 the answer is simple and Lopez still has time to get better.

[TheBluest]

tkf with all due respect you are not being quite so evenhanded as you customarily are. what if any are robin lopez's positive attributes? i see a basketball player who, while not so athletic as lee, still has a better set of basketball skills coming into the league than david lee possesses. maybe things are evening out but you make lee sound like james worthy and you make lopez seem like a stiff.

with the main thrust of the thread in mind, who in your opinion would make for a better piece of a core, lopez or lee?

TKF won't give an inch to a lot of players in this league. Players he doesn't think are all that good

Arenas
Iguodola
CDR
Hedo
Dunleavy
Rondo
Harris
Lopez
Monta
A. Randolph
Fernandez
Oden
Josh Smith
Deron Williams
Ariza
Jordan

When your Rap Sheet starts collecting up like this you gotta start wondering what's the angle. Highly critical and suspicious of all these players at one time or another

where did you get that from? It is noted that I said this guy is the best to ever play the game.. what are you talking about.. are we now making things up? As far as deron, you are lying again.. I am not a fan of the guy, but never did I say he wasn't good, or even a top guard in this league.. you need to get your lies straight bra.... Putting jordan on that list just makes you to be a liar, and really why stoop that low? Don't even participate if you have to do that.. for real..

The rest of the guys, there is a very good reason why I don't like them, why don't you put that list of guys against the guys I like in this league, and it won't take a rocket scientist figure out why I like who I like.....

I should have said DeAndre Jordan....I did that on purpose

I remember the game Knicks played Utah at the Garden I think the game where Marbury won on the layup at the end or if it wasn't the same game when Crawford crossed him up you called Deron a chunky butt chucker and that you thought he was a little overrated. Maybe that has changed over time and if so I guess in time Harris has hope to prove he isn't and win you over....lol

[TKF]

Look we can argue this until we're blue in the face but how many GM's do you think would take Lee over Lopez. . . . NONE

90% of Knick fans would take Lopez over Lee let alone unbiased fans. Look I like D. Lee and would love to have him on my team along side Lopez that would be a great front court. What I don't want is him instead of Lopez. Look at the previuos post from your fellow Knick fans they know what they're talkin about. If Lopez was a Knick you'd probably be anointing him the second coming of Ewing, but he's he's a Net so we'll just bash him all we can.

It's too early to say.

No on October 26, 2009 the answer is simple and Lopez still has time to get better.

everyone has time to get better. I think the argument is how much better, and that is where the dissagrement comes toplay... saying that "X" player has time to get better so he will be better than "y" player is not always the case.... Let me ask this, and again, I am not saying that all GM's are right, because they do make mistakes.. but If lopez upside is as high as you want to believe, as a 7 footer with a good set of skills aready. whey did so many GM's pass? why?

[stuporman]

Sure, cause Lee can't get any better, even if he's shown he can get better every year.....

[TKF]

I should have said DeAndre Jordan....I did that on purpose

I remember the game Knicks played Utah at the Garden I think the game where Marbury won on the layup at the end or if it wasn't the same game when Crawford crossed him up you called Deron a chunky butt chucker and that you thought he was a little overrated. Maybe that has changed over time and if so I guess in time Harris has hope to prove he isn't and win you over....lol

Oh.. OK.. my bad.. I apologize then... I thought you meant michael jordan....

Yea, look at that list.. A list full of overpaid, undachieving, big mouths... LOL.. Deron I always said was good, just didn't like him as a PG, but the guy has suprised me. He is a player for sure.. I like ariza, no problems with him, just don't think he is the player the rockets think they are getting...

the rest ahhh. Arenas, iggy, can't stand those guys..

Monta.. I like him.... Hedo, he is aight, just don't think he is as good as made out to be. dunleavy is a classic underachiever ..... the rest of your list are filled with similar players with pretty much the same complaints.... guys like oden and rudy, I really don't dislike, just don't feel all giddy about them as most do....

[Subway Token]

How do you not like Iguodola... .

[StutterStep]

Look we can argue this until we're blue in the face but how many GM's do you think would take Lee over Lopez. . . . NONE

Came last year's draft when I felt the Knicks needed a Center, I wanted NOTHING to do with Lopez. Before we selected a coach I had my preferences as Hibbert/DeAndre. Once we had a coach in place, I wanted DeAndre.

Lopez will be solid throughout his career if he stays healthy but he will never be dominant or even as good as a guy like Rick Smits was. The true test of a Center is not whether other GMs will select him over Lee a PF who relies more on instincts and dexterity.

The true test of a CENTER is after drafting him, do you feel you have the CENTERPIECE of your franchise for the next decade plus. Trust that the answer is NO... that's why Lopez did not go top 5. He is your average Center.

I would take Lee over Lopez any day any way...reason is simple: I never have to worry about running a play for him and he will still produce. And, when I do run plays for him, he still produces. Don't run plays for Lopez and let me know when he averages a double-double for the season.

[StutterStep]

Bottomline is this..... Harris is a very good basketball, maybe slightly above average point guard, still has good upside, will improve as a point guard, is multi-dimensional as a player, more two-way at this point and has more trade value versus any player in the Core comparison.

So, using whatever metric or soapbox that you are, would that make Nate Robinson also a very good player?

[StutterStep]

you called Deron a chunky butt chucker and that you thought he was a little overrated. Maybe that has changed over time and if so I guess in time Harris has hope to prove he isn't and win you over....lol

Deron Williams: including his first year where he only averaged 10pts on 42% and 41% on 3pters, he is in just 4 seasons --

46.7% on 13FGA
35.8% on 3pt%
16.2pts while needing only 4 Free Throws


OH...he also averages 8.7 ASSISTS....closer to 11 for the past two years.

When you talk Devin Harris to me, talk PERCENTAGES, FGA and FTA....thank you! BING BAM BOOM

[dk7th]

tkf with all due respect you are not being quite so evenhanded as you customarily are. what if any are robin lopez's positive attributes? i see a basketball player who, while not so athletic as lee, still has a better set of basketball skills coming into the league than david lee possesses. maybe things are evening out but you make lee sound like james worthy and you make lopez seem like a stiff.

with the main thrust of the thread in mind, who in your opinion would make for a better piece of a core, lopez or lee?

I didn't know that this was a give brook some love session. I thought we were comparing players, I am only making lee seem like the player he has been for the past 4 years. We are talking about athlticism at this point right? well IMO.. Lee is closer to worthy athletically, and lopez is closer to stiff. that is just my opinion.....

Now if you are asking me too to say something positive about lopez, just to make lopez fans feel better , well sure... He is tall, pretty strong....ahhhh.. tall(or did I say that already).. has a nice set of skills around the basket, better than guys like dalembert and Noah for sure. Do I think he is or will be anything more than a good center, not really. I think his slow reaction time around the hoop and his lack lift will just limit him, I just don't see tremendous upside without those things... But in his defense his skillset will always make him a better player than more athletic guys like noah, and dalembert for sure...

i'm a knick fan always have been always will be.

but i am also a student of the game and a fan of good basketball. i admire athleticism just fine but i esteem basketball skills more. lopez seems to have come into the league with more basketball skills than lee possessed. in fact you mention noah-- lee was much like noah is. unskilled but athletic and energetic.

right or wrong?

to say that you are talking about lee as the player he has been for the past 4 years is disingenuous because it means that he came into the league with the same skills he has since developed. not trying to beg the question here but are you saying he has not improved and it is just taking less astute fans to catch up with reality?

lopez is not close to being a stiff, come on. hasheem thabeet taken at #2-- now THERE'S a stiff for you.

[j4remi]

I think it's more like he thinks Lee is a solid, borderline allstar and Lopez isn't. Depending on your core and the type of team you're working with, you pick which piece. Brook didn't get love from D'antoni because he doesn't fit the system, but if you're the Bulls it's gotta be Brook... and on and on with these picks. Lopez has to get a double this year to honestly say he has a better skillset all around, someone said he's better in almost every facet of the game and that just isn't true.

of course context vis a vis "what system is the player being drafted for" is critical here, no doubt. in this sense you are spot on so far as lopez not fitting into d'antoni ball. but then again is lee that much of a d'antoni type of player? well sort of since the pick and roll is crucial but he still has a ways to go with the midrange shot though it has gotten a little better. i don't believe that lee is an all-star level player just yet--but then again i think the whole all-star thing is a crock of shyte generally.

core players: that's an issue of what player has the type of skills and level of said skills that allow that player to mesh and create synergy with the other core players towards becoming a title-contending team.

right?

lee to his credit is learning but he to my mind is "an energy guy off the bench" not an all-star, while to my way of thinking lopez is going to exceed lee in the next several seasons. i happen to not think so highly of harris and i believe the lack of orchestrating abilities on harris's part will hinder the nets from becoming successful as well as hindering lopez's ability to be as effective as possible.

Lee was second in the league in double-doubles. I mean, he's not a certified all star but borderline allstar is a fair appointment imho. He fits the system well despite the lack of range because he makes up for it. Lee has slowly developed a solid, somewhat reliable jumper. He has very nice passing skills, athleticism, great finishing around the basket, and agility. Those are all helpful in the system. His lack of a true guaranteed jumper is the only thing holding him back from being a perfect fit offensively, his lack of defense is why I don't really care if we keep him or not.

Your concept of core players is pretty solid. I don't disagree with that, and I like it. If we're talking about who meshes with his team better, it's kind of a wash and comes back to systems.

As far as Lee being an energy off the bench guy, the one thing I can say is that he's one of the few players who's production didn't tail off with minutes. The more they increased the more he produced. He HAS to step his defense up to be a true star in the league, but he's far from weak. You put him in that Center role and he actually has good production. In a lot of his match-ups last year he actually outplayed his match-up (but I'm still not sold). I think he's a solid player and could be a part of a winning line-up. Lopez is too, but the two are comparable and Lee's superior rebounding and scoring numbers make the argument at least viable. Will Lopez improve and how much become the questions...I don't see the room for improvement that was in Lee. A raw athlete (like Hill), has a lot of facets to improve upon and develop, which is why Lee had such great improvement. Brook was extremely polished...but that means he has less to improve upon and is closer to his ceiling. That's all I'm saying.

[j4remi]

Let me show how ridiculous some of you are with picking and choosing and the knick-flopping

Some want to say what has Harris done.... when first of all how is it really relevant to Harris being a good basketball player or not or even a good point guard? Chris Paul didn't make the playoffs first 2yrs in the league. But if we go that route and someone else fires back with well what has so and so player done or would the same apply if so and so player fails this yr.


Case in point Derrick Rose. Exsqueeze Me!....Derrick Rose overrated asss wasn't leading the Bulls anywhere but to another lottery season until Paxson saved him(might as well call anyone overrated here to keep the reputation up LOL) by making a trade with the Kings... let's get that straight not now but RIGHT NOW


I love how much onus we like to put on Harris as the sole responsible one for lack of team success yet I keep hearing these references to Vince and ALL-STAR. Did Vince fail? How can you be an All-Star and fail as bad as the Nets did? Oh wait I guess this proves my point when people mention All-Star how much import does it really carry these days. When we were comparing teams last yr, or the past few yrs in general we weren't referring to Vince as Vince. Matter of fact Knick fans have been calling New Jersey trash for about 3-4yrs now when they had Kidd, R-Gay(no Rudy), Wince(3 ALL-STARS mind you they missed playoffs a couple times, matter of fact were out of the picture before Kidd was traded)....that's right Vince was Wince then or shall we say Vinjury. But fast forward to this current thread when Harris was playing with ALL-STAR Dirk he was simply a footnote until the Playoffs came and they played the Warriors then it's Harris failed(forget the regular season stuff)...Dirk walks away Scott Free league MVP that yr BTW. When Harris is playing with Vince the ALL-STAR he's looked at differently. It's....OH MY GOSH HARRIS WAS PLAYING WITH ALL-STAR VINCE AND HE FAILED TO LEAD THEM ANYWHERE!!!!! Vince walks away Scott Free also... I got it I got it...LOL smiley face


Bottomline is this..... Harris is a very good basketball, maybe slightly above average point guard, still has good upside, will improve as a point guard, is multi-dimensional as a player, more two-way at this point and has more trade value versus any player in the Core comparison.


As far as Brook vs Lee and athleticism Lee wins 1000 times out of 10.

You continue to kick this nonsense about 21 year olds as if Devin Harris was a rookie or a sophomore last year. He's 26...he's a vet at this point. When you judge players it doesn't boil down simply to numbers but impact as well. A great player on a losing team makes sense in some cases, like when a guy has a piss poor team...That applies to T-Mac in Orlando and KG in Minne. It also applies to Vince last year. Vince has lead teams to the playoffs before and been an impact player, so you'd think with this great C and allstar PG the team would be a playoff squad...VC is the only proven commodity though, so to act like "Vince failed his squad" is just trying to make something stick. The argument is busted because once the Nets got Vince a few years back they immediately became a threatening team in the postseason. That's like saying "Shaq failed Phoenix last year...it's his fault, he's a loser...why don't we question his ability?"

Vince = Proven player who has been on winning teams as the top option.

Devin Harris = Proved solid as a fourth option or so...but unproven as a 1st or 2nd option.

It's not rocket science.

[K_ick_God]

Lopez is not *a* stiff but he *is* a bit stiff ... in his mobility. He can move a bit but he's perhaps only slightly more mobile than the average blocky 7-footer. His lack of lift or mobility limits his ceiling.

[dk7th]

I think it's more like he thinks Lee is a solid, borderline allstar and Lopez isn't. Depending on your core and the type of team you're working with, you pick which piece. Brook didn't get love from D'antoni because he doesn't fit the system, but if you're the Bulls it's gotta be Brook... and on and on with these picks. Lopez has to get a double this year to honestly say he has a better skillset all around, someone said he's better in almost every facet of the game and that just isn't true.

of course context vis a vis "what system is the player being drafted for" is critical here, no doubt. in this sense you are spot on so far as lopez not fitting into d'antoni ball. but then again is lee that much of a d'antoni type of player? well sort of since the pick and roll is crucial but he still has a ways to go with the midrange shot though it has gotten a little better. i don't believe that lee is an all-star level player just yet--but then again i think the whole all-star thing is a crock of shyte generally.

core players: that's an issue of what player has the type of skills and level of said skills that allow that player to mesh and create synergy with the other core players towards becoming a title-contending team.

right?

lee to his credit is learning but he to my mind is "an energy guy off the bench" not an all-star, while to my way of thinking lopez is going to exceed lee in the next several seasons. i happen to not think so highly of harris and i believe the lack of orchestrating abilities on harris's part will hinder the nets from becoming successful as well as hindering lopez's ability to be as effective as possible.

Lee was second in the league in double-doubles. I mean, he's not a certified all star but borderline allstar is a fair appointment imho. He fits the system well despite the lack of range because he makes up for it. Lee has slowly developed a solid, somewhat reliable jumper. He has very nice passing skills, athleticism, great finishing around the basket, and agility. Those are all helpful in the system. His lack of a true guaranteed jumper is the only thing holding him back from being a perfect fit offensively, his lack of defense is why I don't really care if we keep him or not.

Your concept of core players is pretty solid. I don't disagree with that, and I like it. If we're talking about who meshes with his team better, it's kind of a wash and comes back to systems.

As far as Lee being an energy off the bench guy, the one thing I can say is that he's one of the few players who's production didn't tail off with minutes. The more they increased the more he produced. He HAS to step his defense up to be a true star in the league, but he's far from weak. You put him in that Center role and he actually has good production. In a lot of his match-ups last year he actually outplayed his match-up (but I'm still not sold). I think he's a solid player and could be a part of a winning line-up. Lopez is too, but the two are comparable and Lee's superior rebounding and scoring numbers make the argument at least viable. Will Lopez improve and how much become the questions...I don't see the room for improvement that was in Lee. A raw athlete (like Hill), has a lot of facets to improve upon and develop, which is why Lee had such great improvement. Brook was extremely polished...but that means he has less to improve upon and is closer to his ceiling. That's all I'm saying.

you have a good take on the game, and i'm grateful. i see your point here. still it comes down to a question of context. thorn made a mistake with trading for harris and this will make lopez appear to underachieve. lopez will develop a good passing out of doubles skill or he will be a bust. lee is in fact is the better athlete on the offensive side of things but he clearly did not have the proper coaching that lopez has benefited from. if he can manage to hit the 12-15 footer with something like 45%+ he is an all-star.

as a knick fan i root for him to be able to do so.