Is RJ Barrett a beast?

[E-Balla]

Never thought I'd say this, but Knox is showing more promise than RJ

Knox can actually put the ball in the hoop

Knox is tied for the lowest FG% in the league the last 3 seasons (tied with Frank because of course he is). Put the ball in the hoop? Since when?

[3toheadmelo]

Never thought I'd say this, but Knox is showing more promise than RJ

Knox can actually put the ball in the hoop

Knox is tied for the lowest FG% in the league the last 3 seasons (tied with Frank because of course he is). Put the ball in the hoop? Since when?

I think he meant right now. Knox is hitting 3’s while RJ can’t really make anything right now.

[Clyde_Style]

Knox can actually put the ball in the hoop

Knox is tied for the lowest FG% in the league the last 3 seasons (tied with Frank because of course he is). Put the ball in the hoop? Since when?

I think he meant right now. Knox is hitting 3’s while RJ can’t really make anything right now.

This season of course. He actually has a jumpshot with form

[Clyde_Style]

i think frank is less likely to be a bust and i'm not a big fan. if the 3 stays going in this year, he can be a 3 & d guard. that's a role that teams always want. rj might have more pieces but they're harder to assimilate. he has to reach a much higher ceiling to be useful than frank does.

Pretty much. If you can't build around him, what do you do with him exactly? And at this time you can't build around him or plan for a future with him as the core.

[prophet_of_rage]

You make him a piece. You don't need to build around RJ. Right now you feed him in transition, give him a few curl plays, a couple post ups and otherwise he gets his off the flow.

Force feeding him shots is not working right now.

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[prophet_of_rage]

i think frank is less likely to be a bust and i'm not a big fan. if the 3 stays going in this year, he can be a 3 & d guard. that's a role that teams always want. rj might have more pieces but they're harder to assimilate. he has to reach a much higher ceiling to be useful than frank does.

Pretty much. If you can't build around him, what do you do with him exactly? And at this time you can't build around him or plan for a future with him as the core.

He's A piece. Not THE piece.

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[Clyde_Style]

i think frank is less likely to be a bust and i'm not a big fan. if the 3 stays going in this year, he can be a 3 & d guard. that's a role that teams always want. rj might have more pieces but they're harder to assimilate. he has to reach a much higher ceiling to be useful than frank does.

Pretty much. If you can't build around him, what do you do with him exactly? And at this time you can't build around him or plan for a future with him as the core.

He's A piece. Not THE piece.

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He is not a starter or a piece if he cannot shoot. He needs to handle the ball too much to reconcile that. He needs to find his shot or he is not going to make it.

[cgf]

I'm curious, do the folks who are serious about RJ being a bust think that RJ or Knox is the better player?

[Sark]

He needs to train with Ben Simmons. Just drive, pass, and rebound. Take shooting out of his repertoire.

[DaGawd]

I'm curious, do the folks who are serious about RJ being a bust think that RJ or Knox is the better player?

Right now that **** is up in the air... and I never thought I’d say that.. but here we are.. most metrics have RJ right now as one of if not our worst rotation players

[cgf]

Pretty much. If you can't build around him, what do you do with him exactly? And at this time you can't build around him or plan for a future with him as the core.

He's A piece. Not THE piece.

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He is not a starter or a piece if he cannot shoot. He needs to handle the ball too much to reconcile that. He needs to find his shot or he is not going to make it.

Though it's too early for the #s to mean anything significant; the 20yo's FT rate is up almost 10%, his long-midrange shooting is up over 5%, and his intermediate-midrange shooting is also up over 5%. The 3ball's obviously still (at least) a year away & he seems to be in his head about that, but the kid's shooting has made progress everywhere else & his work ethic is one of his strongest traits.

...so why are we assuming that he'll never become a capable 3pt shooter? Even Demar has become a plus 3pt shooter now. Development isn't linear, so until he stops making progress, I don't see the point in freaking out about the rate of that progress in the terrible growth-environment we've put him in

[DaGawd]

He's A piece. Not THE piece.

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He is not a starter or a piece if he cannot shoot. He needs to handle the ball too much to reconcile that. He needs to find his shot or he is not going to make it.

Though it's too early for the #s to mean anything significant; the 20yo's FT rate is up almost 10%, his long-midrange shooting is up over 5%, and his intermediate-midrange shooting is also up over 5%. The 3ball's obviously still (at least) a year away & he seems to be in his head about that, but the kid's shooting has made progress everywhere else & his work ethic is one of his strongest traits.

...so why are we assuming that he'll never become a capable 3pt shooter? Even Demar has become a plus 3pt shooter now. Development isn't linear, so until he stops making progress, I don't see the point in freaking out about the rate of that progress in the terrible growth-environment we've put him in

Demar still isn’t and has never been a plus 3 point shooter....

[3toheadmelo]

I’m not even sure RJ will be as good as Demar. Demar can actually create his own shot, killer mid range game.

[Capn'O]

You make him a piece. You don't need to build around RJ. Right now you feed him in transition, give him a few curl plays, a couple post ups and otherwise he gets his off the flow.

Force feeding him shots is not working right now.

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Or you bring him off the bench. He looks to me like his confidence is shot so, yes, a scale back is needed.

[Clyde_Style]

I'm curious, do the folks who are serious about RJ being a bust think that RJ or Knox is the better player?

Ask me at the end of the season.

I think the takeaway from this conversation is at this juncture Knox has a skill that allows you to have a NBA career. If he can become a consistent contributor who nails his threes at a decent clip and contributes acceptable defense (he is definitely improving on D finally) and who understands how to function in an offense (again, Knox is showing much better comprehension of how to operate off the ball this season), then Knox will stay in the league. Knox actually has shooting form. It is a hell of a rainbow, but it snaps the net.

RJ at this time cannot shoot and his shooting form is erratic at best. If he can't fix that, then his career will be in serious trouble.

Knox always had some shooting form, that's the primary difference right now.

Knox was also fairly clueless about basketball until this season, but he is finally showing he can learn and improve. He desperately needed coaching and now he has it.

RJ is not clueless about basketball, but his judgment still suffers too often due to a conviction he must be the man. Being # 3 is clearly on his mind, he's feeling the pressure to produce and as a result he forces his offense a whole lot.

Knox is a superior athletic build in theory, but he still goes up to the rim like a little boy so he has a lot to work on to maximize his frame. But he still is very long and that allows him to get off his rainbow jumpers pretty consistently even with a man closing on him.

RJ is not a great talent by NBA standards. He's just very strong for his size. That can work to his advantage if he discovers his shooting touch. But being a bully ball player only really works if you are a threat from the outside as well. Then RJ could be a dangerous inside/outside threat, but as it stands now he is not even efficient at a rim so his able to get there is a wash at best right now.

In sum, RJ with a jumper would be a more complete player than Knox will likely ever be. However, Knox may be a lower usage player with a higher net offensive contribution which doesn't make him a core player, but potentially a useful component. If RJ can't shoot, he won't even be a component.

By the end of the season we will see how each progresses. On their current trajectories, Knox looks like he will be useful and RJ will not. But that can change. Knox has a season more than RJ and it might take RJ another two years to figure it out.

Since RJ has never had good shooting touch, I think he is danger of flaming out and he has been a prominent player since he was a kid.

Knox never had RJ's long career in junior ball and is really still in the early stages of his basketball journey.

At this point, if I had to make the wager, I'd bet Knox will end up having a legit NBA career either as a starter or a scorer off the bench and RJ will be a journeyman off the bench if he cannot find his shot.

[Clyde_Style]

He needs to train with Ben Simmons. Just drive, pass, and rebound. Take shooting out of his repertoire.

RJ does not have Simmons athletic attributes to get by on his other skills without being able to shoot

[Futureisnow]

He's shown an ability to use his physicality to get into the paint and score. His free throw percentage is improved over last year. His outside jumper...well...his form looks better than last year. I don't think he's pushing the ball out from his chest as much and the arc looks fine. But obviously it's not consistent. I'd probably move him to the 3 and put a 1 and 2 out there with him that can consistently knock down a jumper so that he's not put in the position of having to as often as he is. It's only year 2 and he's already shown he's a starter in this league. Based on his work ethic and determination, I'm sure he'll turn things around.

[DaGawd]

He's shown an ability to use his physicality to get into the paint and score. His free throw percentage is improved over last year. His outside jumper...well...his form looks better than last year. I don't think he's pushing the ball out from his chest as much and the arc looks fine. But obviously it's not consistent. I'd probably move him to the 3 and put a 1 and 2 out there with him that can consistently knock down a jumper so that he's not put in the position of having to as often as he is. It's only year 2 and he's already shown he's a starter in this league. Based on his work ethic and determination, I'm sure he'll turn things around.

He’s a starter on the Knicks.. He’s a bench player on most other teams. The stats don’t like. Both raw and advanced.. he’s a bad nba player right now

[cgf]

I'm curious, do the folks who are serious about RJ being a bust think that RJ or Knox is the better player?

Right now that **** is up in the air... and I never thought I’d say that.. but here we are.. most metrics have RJ right now as one of if not our worst rotation players

That's what I kinda figured some of y'all would so & why I was curious.

Cause to me -- despite Kevin's advantage behind the arc -- it's not all that close. Sure on nights like last night where Kevin's hot & RJ is fighting it, Knox helps us win more...but in general watching them this season RJB has clearly looked like a completely different caliber of prospect to me. Kevin gives the ball away so much more cheaply, he gets lost so much more defensively, he has had fewer nights where he's put it all together, I trust his drives so much less than I do RJ's, despite his better length he's doing a much worse job on the glass...and then there's RJ's work ethic/mental toughness/focus.


I, like everyone, wish RJ had made a bigger step this season despite the tough growth-environment we've given him...but there has been progress from RJ, and as long as kids are making progress I don't get too wrapped up in the rate when they're this early in their development curves.

Some kids explode early & then only make incremental improvements (like Russ or Wall), some take slow steps for a while until everything comes together (like Ingram or CJ), and most fall somewhere in between those extremes. You never know which prospect will follow what kind of growth arc; even raw toolsy projects are sometimes able to find a way to utilize their tools early and sometimes super-cerebral kids need a lot of time to figure the top level out well enough to learn how to craft advantages for themselves with their intelligence.


Maybe it's just because my expectations for RJ weren't as high as some folks', as I wasn't a huge RJ fan...DeAndre Hunter & Nassir Little were my non-Zion prospect-crushes in that draft...though I did agree that he was the right pick at #3 in that class.

[cgf]

I’m not even sure RJ will be as good as Demar. Demar can actually create his own shot, killer mid range game.

Development isn't linear so who knows if it'll happen...but if RJ's midrange game where to improve over the coming offseason as much as it did from last season to this one, he'd be within a percentage point of where Demar's midrange shooting was when he became an allstar