Knicks - Hawks PG: This is what effort looks like

[Reign23]

all the young guns were great, which is all I care about. great win.

[FutureKnicksGM]

Is it last year?

Its this years. But last year Randle was 'touching the ball' to much and still 'inefficient' and all that stuff you have figured out. But fine divert away.

We're 11-9. What's our record end up this season, if we can get rid of the guy who you say is making us worse on both sides of the ball?

So it's not last year? I gave you numbers from this year, do you have anything to say about those? The less Randle has the ball this year has worked out for us, when he's been on the court this year we have been an inefficient offensive team that barely plays defense. Do you have anything to refute the numbers from this year?

You don't win basketball games or championships by individual ratings. Clearly there is minimal context applied.

You think Randle makes us a worse team. Translate whatever rating/count you want that into the most simple (and important stat) - wins.

Without Randle holding us back, how many more wins do we get in comparison to a team with Juilius. This year. It really is a simple question.

[Clyde_Style]

Last year Trae would have spent the entire 4th Q at the line . he head flopped 3 or 4 times in the 4Q but no whistle...good on the NBA

When Jericho tied up Collins for the jump ball you could just see the air come out of Collins a bit. That kid is strong and brought it all game.

Alec Burks playin like Joe Johnson with a flatter arc on his shot.

Good comp

[Buttah304]

There are a lot of kudos to be sent around but we aren’t winning this game without Fournier. The front office specifically had this series in mind when they saw how their offense crumbled because they lacked the necessary shot creators/scorers to keep up with ATL. Was that smart? Not really considering there are 13 other teams in the conference, many of whom are steadily getting better. To base your off-season around 1 team just doesn’t make much sense to me.

Having said that, without Fourniers 20 Points on 7-13 FG and 4-6 from deep I just don’t see us pulling this out. In fact, many of Evans buckets were in a timely manner.

Burks is without question a better value deal at $10 mill over the $18 Fournier is getting paid. With that aside, I think there is a valid argument that this offense needs them both. Evan probably wasn’t the guy to sign to a year 3 year deal, but the Knicks needed as much offensive versatility as possible and Fournier has a legitimate body of work with that in mind.

Furthermore, it’s not going to do you any favors (mentally) to call out his poor defense. I’m already in the accepting stage where I acknowledge he was a poor defender, is one currently, and will be for the foreseeable future. In fact, the defense he played on Huerter last night is most likely the best we will see him play on that end.

Fournier needs to score 17 PPG and shoot 40% 3PT on 7-8 attempts in order to even begin the conversation as to whether or not he is a movable contract (even hitting those numbers still makes it difficult IMO). Then again, $17-$18 is the going rate for a shooter like him. Bojan got 4/73, Bogdon got 4/72, Harris 4/75, Bertans 5/80, Hield 4/94, Kennard 4/58, THJ 4/75 and Norman Powell 5/90.

I just wish that instead of these carbon copy type role players, we had more guys that are positionless and highly versatile. To me it’s completely absurd that the only true athlete on the team is Obi. Our supposed #1 and #2 options either can’t jump (Randle) or can’t even get off the ground (RJ).

[blueNorange]

they have to find a way to get rid of randle

[god shammgod]

this year's version of julius is very different than last year. we're getting 2 years ago julius right now. he's shooting 41 and 33 from 3. last year he shot 45/41. that guy helped win us games. the guy from 2 years ago got us the 8th pick. and if we never had marcus morris who won us some games before he was traded, the pick would have been in the top 5. if he doesn't regain his last year form forget about that discount he supposedly took, he's unmovable for value.

[god shammgod]

actually, the 41 percent he's shooting overall is the lowest of his career. he's never been less efficient.

[Chanel Bomber]

"When you go down the talent ladder, the more and more players require fit" - moocow, No Blood No Foul

Bars.

[thebuzzardman]

Alec Burks never averaged double digit points until his 3rd season in Utah and spent most of his career being a net negative on the court(way worse over players you dramatically cry about). He was never a good defender in Utah. His defense is average at best right now because he has Robinson/Noel behind him for when he gets beat. You can't even make a list of players Burks has "shut down" with his defense, so stop acting like he can clamp dudes up. Burks defense...if it was so great, why did Utah fans for multiple seasons begged management to ship Burks away? Most Jazz fans were pissed when they resigned him and he didnt live up to his contract. Burks did absolutely nothing for us in the playoffs.

career in the playoffs:
10 ppg
39% FG
32% 3PT

Burks is fine where he is now. A reserve off the bench on limited minutes. We win one game with Burks starting and dramaboys, want to proclaim Burks the franchise player of this team. Mental.

RJ in his 3rd year is light years ahead of Burks in his 3rd year and overall RIGHT NOW despite RJ's slump
RJ shot 40% in his SOPHMORE season on 17 ppg and good defense.
It took Burks 5 seasons to become that kind of shooter and his defense was very ass in his 5th year.


a developing 21 year old who averaging 6 rebounds per game, dropped a career high (higher than Burks goofy)

RJ will be a better defender as the season comes along. His potential is CLEARLY there and you guys eat too much within 20 games. Do you guys even watch games at this point or just check scoreboards? RJ constantly fighting over screens and his strength has been an asset.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

the end this debate comes by asking the forum who they would rather have if their shooting % average out through the season.
It's easy to claim "Burks is better" because RJ is shooting below his career averages. But if you project RJ to stay around 39% shooting, obviously the K2 consumption is real in your life and you need serious help.

RJ will have a long season to drop multiple 30 point games. His numbers will be normalized and so will Burks. It's not even close. RJ is a legit corner stone of this franchise at age 21 and Alec Burks is just a reserve who can be easily replaced.


People take small sample sizes and want to run a non-sensible take. At best, Alec Burks is Tim Hardaway Jr with less offense slightly better defense, but not good enough defense to say he's "good".

What will put RJ ahead of Burks always is RJ has very active hands and feet. Plus has strength to absorb bumps on picks, where as Burks get devoured for free. RJ had one of the best plu-minus in defensive ratings at his position last year(way larger sample size than 20 games)

RJ was drafted into a system that matches his skill-set...Burks was sign to be a reserve.

Imagine if we had a situation like Jimmy Butler or Paul George who took a while to develop (longer than RJ), bussychild would of raged over a few losses and streaky games and proclaimed someone like Burks is better right now without considering skillset.
K2 consumption is dangerous and I invite you guys to use post like that as an example on why to never experiment with drugs. RJ is still 5 years from his prime. Butler wasn't even in the NBA at age 21. RJ already has 3 seasons on his belt. RJ was holding guys to 35-40% in the season and bussy was quiet af. When RJ comes back and does it again, you'll know who will get quiet. Fake Knick fans giving up on a 21 year old

Burks is playing better than RJ right now. I pointed out he should be because he's 10 years older.
RJ has been pretty bad for pretty long stretch, that's a fact. I'm not the only poster on his case.
RJ has been pretty ordinary even for a young player, for a guy drafted at #3. That's ok; it happens. Can't control who is in what draft after the draft order is set.
I think he'll be an average wing. I hope I'm wrong. He has a lot to get better at to be more than that. Some of which are based on quickness and explosiveness, which I don't think are going to change. Or to get elite at dribbling and adding hesitations and change of pace, which theoretically could be done, but I don't think NBA players elevate their handle that much. Do they improve? Absolutely.
I don't know about other posters on here, but all I'll generally say about Burks, going back to last year and this offseason, is that he's a really good bench player with the all around game the Knicks desperately need, which is why he should have been and was a priority to resign over Bullocks, in spite of Bullocks being a better defender.

I was quiet when RJ was playing well because I expect guys drafted #3 and given tons of minutes to produce.

I'll admit I wanted Bullock bc of his defense and sniping from 3. That was his role and he filled it well. Burks has been a good re-signing

I thought maybe there was a path to bring both back but that would probably bury IQ if signing another wing, which they needed to do. So if one or the other, Burks, because Knicks need shot creation. In part because of where RJ is on his development curve. Or who he is.

[Buttah304]

this year's version of julius is very different than last year. we're getting 2 years ago julius right now. he's shooting 41 and 33 from 3. last year he shot 45/41. that guy helped win us games. the guy from 2 years ago got us the 8th pick. if he doesn't regain his last year form forget about that discount he supposedly took, he's unmovable for value.

A team would be paying big money for the 6th man version of NO Randle where he probably scores 20 a night beating up on 2nd units. His current price makes him unmovable in that regard. Like many have pointed out he legitimately struggles when the ball isn’t in his hands. It’s almost as if he’s not sure what his place is on the court.

The million dollar question is what would the Knicks have given him this summer if (a) they saw how much he would regress and (b) how much progress Obi would show.

[thebuzzardman]

Best win of the season so far and honestly, some of you should not be allowed to even enjoy it.

To come back on the second night of a back to back on the road after the Suns blowout loss and win a game undermanned against a red hot team on a 7 game win streak and the team that eliminated you in the playoffs says a lot about the character and heart of this team.

You cannot play better defense that how we did in the fourth quarter. Everyone was in sync! Great gameplan by Thibs and great execution by the entire team. IQ was amazing! Best game of his career imo in terms of his defense and playmaking. Burks was a monster in the 3rd quarter of doom. Timely shots by Fournier, especially at the beginning of the third when the Hawks started 7-0 and took a lead. Sims gave us some great minutes. Great job by the front office to find someone like him at the end of the second. Obi's energy and athleticism was such a boost too. That alley-oop was just insane! Good to see RJ snap out of his slump and start to make shots. Weird game by Randle. He had some key plays including that drive at the end of the third and good defense when switched on Trae Young and made some nice passes off double teams to find guys but offensively, something is off with him. Hope he's OK but he seems like he's distracted. Don't wanna speculate but he's not playing with the same joy and energy of last season.

Anyway, great win last night. Very proud of this team!

MrFrozenEnvelopEd, the two regulators of Knick fandom.

[thebuzzardman]

Even further into the numbers, Randle had a 22.9 usage rate (Nba.com) while Basketball ref has it at 23.6, either way it was the 4th lowest of the season for him. He had a net rating of -0.3 while Obi had a +21.2, we are reaching a point where these numbers are starting to state the obvious, which is our offense is appreciably better when he's off the floor. On the season we had a 106.6 ORTG when he's on the court, and a 116.8 when he's off. He shared the court with IQ/Burks a lot last night and his individual ORTG for the game was 108.5 (Nba.com) while basketball-reference has it at a putrid 77, his career ORTG is 108 excluding his rookie year of 1 game. He has reverted back to what he was pre-contract season, while still trying to demand the same type of offensive possessions.


We are without a doubt a worse team with him on the floor this season, on both sides of the ball. All the people who swore we can't score without him haven't been looking at the numbers, we're scoring in spite of him. Without him on the floor the offense gets faster, we play more to the strengths of the guards, and the defense also gets better. I'm going to start keeping track of individual game ratings.

Last year a Randle led team got us 41 wins (out of 72) & a first round knock out. If we didn't play Randle at all, how many wins do we get and how far do we go in the playoffs without Randle holding us back?

While Rose gets credit for the success and absolutely should, with Rose and no Randle, team wins about 20 games. Ok, 25.

[blueNorange]

first 11 games randle was averaging 37 mpg
last 9 games randle is averaging 33 mpg

thibs is slowly playing bumass randle less and less.

next stop getting rid of him and playing the better player, obi toppin starter minutes

[thebuzzardman]

Right now it's not even a question. If NYKmentality took a lie detector test he'd fail miserably.

RJ is far from a finished product he's going to will himself to be a great player but right now he's shaky and lately the invisible man. Played better yesterday.

Yup. I've been bashing on RJ, but as I said in another post, mainly pissed that I thought he'd turned the corner but then he regressed hard. Repeating again, in fairness to RJ, not all progress is linear.
Still can't shake the feeling that without elite athleticism he'll always been kind of uneven because he can be scouted, he has to pick his spots to score, etc etc. Again, hope to be wrong. He's got height, he's strong AF and obviously a hard worker.

Leon Rose is waiting for your apology my guy!!!!!!!!!!!

For what you exclamation point wielding moron?
I"ve been a supporter of the Burks being resigned/signing all along.
Other than that, L. Rose and co have been "ok".
They've set a path where they "wait to be judged" in part on how this year plays out (in progress) and if/when they land the key player via (mostly likely) trade within the next two years.
So far, good, but not great.
TBD
And
EABODs

[blueNorange]

this year's version of julius is very different than last year. we're getting 2 years ago julius right now. he's shooting 41 and 33 from 3. last year he shot 45/41. that guy helped win us games. the guy from 2 years ago got us the 8th pick. and if we never had marcus morris who won us some games before he was traded, the pick would have been in the top 5. if he doesn't regain his last year form forget about that discount he supposedly took, he's unmovable for value.

last randle constantly drove in and kick the ball out immediately

now he drives, stays in the paint, and passes the ball out when the defense is set

[DOT]

this year's version of julius is very different than last year. we're getting 2 years ago julius right now. he's shooting 41 and 33 from 3. last year he shot 45/41. that guy helped win us games. the guy from 2 years ago got us the 8th pick. if he doesn't regain his last year form forget about that discount he supposedly took, he's unmovable for value.

I wouldn't say he's 2 years ago Julius, he's kind of like a hybrid of the last 2 years

2019 Randle was still a very good finisher, and shot 52% on 2 pointers compared to this year's 45%. 2019 Randle couldn't shoot at all, taking 3.6 threes a game and shooting 28%, where this year he's at 5.6 per game shooting 33%. All in all, his eFG has gone from 49% in 2019 to 52% last year to 47% this year. 2019 Randle had a 1:1 a:to ratio at 3.1:3.0, where this year he's at 5.0:3.3

No matter how you call it though, he's not good

Last 10 games he's at 17/9/4 (with 3 turnovers a game), on .396/.321/.683 splits (.488 TS), with a Net rating of -10.2 compared to the team being +19.9 when he's off (meaning we go from being outscored by 10 points per100 with him on to outscoring teams by 20 points per100 when he's off). To be fair though, a lot of that is a starters vs bench thing, as when Randle has played with Kemba over the last 10 games, our Net is -18.9, and when he's played without Kemba, our Net is +4.4

Basically, the starters suck and the bench is great. While Kemba isn't the whole problem, him being on the court coincides with us playing worse. Frankly, I would look into making Rose the starter (but still keeping him at like 24 mpg) with Quick being the backup but getting starter minutes. Or just make Quick the starter. Or McBride, if his defense is as good as advertised.

[HerSports85]

this year's version of julius is very different than last year. we're getting 2 years ago julius right now. he's shooting 41 and 33 from 3. last year he shot 45/41. that guy helped win us games. the guy from 2 years ago got us the 8th pick. and if we never had marcus morris who won us some games before he was traded, the pick would have been in the top 5. if he doesn't regain his last year form forget about that discount he supposedly took, he's unmovable for value.

last randle constantly drove in and kick the ball out immediately

now he drives, stays in the paint, and passes the ball out when the defense is set

[blueNorange]

i’d love for iq to start but also not worried because he’s getting minutes

last 9 games averaging 24 minutes

[Clyde_Style]

this year's version of julius is very different than last year. we're getting 2 years ago julius right now. he's shooting 41 and 33 from 3. last year he shot 45/41. that guy helped win us games. the guy from 2 years ago got us the 8th pick. if he doesn't regain his last year form forget about that discount he supposedly took, he's unmovable for value.

A team would be paying big money for the 6th man version of NO Randle where he probably scores 20 a night beating up on 2nd units. His current price makes him unmovable in that regard. Like many have pointed out he legitimately struggles when the ball isn’t in his hands. It’s almost as if he’s not sure what his place is on the court.

The million dollar question is what would the Knicks have given him this summer if (a) they saw how much he would regress and (b) how much progress Obi would show.

Except they did know he would regress. It's called the playoffs. That's the litmus test of your value. And they still paid him based on his regular season production. Epic fail

[jvsimonetti0514]

Free RJ! And by free I mean get rid of Randle and that terrible halfcourt, slow paced, selfish style of play everybody has to play with him on the court

The eye test clearly shows that RJ doesn't fit well with those starters and his style of play is much more suited when he's out there with young energetic players who can move the ball and get out and run that happen to be on our bench

if this is how thibs is going to play it just let Burks start with that group then. He plays more ISO style offense anyway which suits with the starters.

IQ/RJ/Obi up and down play really well together.

There was two moments that really stick out in my mind from last nights game and it was both RJ on the break. One time it was him with the starters and another time with him and the bench. He ended up scoring on both of them so the outcome was the same but the major difference was with the bench, RJ had Obi and IQ on next to him on the wings. It even had me yelling at my screen for him to pass it to IQ cuz he was ahead of the pack. The other drive was him just by himself going at multiple defenders. It's very rare that RJ has anyone running with him when he's out there with the starters.

That's why it's frustrating to me to see other posters saying we're asking to move heaven and earth to accommodate RJ, when all we're asking for is to play with more pace. Considering our half court offense has pretty much contested midrange jumpers from Randle, you'd think that they'd be pushing for this as well. Not just to help RJ but to help the starters out. They very rarely get easy hoops and playing faster would cause more mismatches that aren't just Randle posting up a guard. It's like why would want to keep watching this same system that's clearly failing our three best players?