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More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread

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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#381 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:51 am

Hes_On_Fire wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Richard4444 wrote:


From Macri’s newsletter:

Midlevel Madness
Could the Knicks throw us all for a loop and sign a player in free agency after all? Today I explore how it might be possible - and look at some candidates.
JONATHAN MACRI
JUN 10


Good morning! Hope everyone had a nice weekend. Today we continue our deep dive into every nook and cranny of the offseason with a topic I frankly didn’t expect to be writing about.

According to Ian Begley, the Knicks will hold a free agent camp today. Former 6th overall pick Jarrett Culver will be among the participants.

Midlevel Madness

I’ve said some version of this before, but it bears repeating today:

The coolest part of Knicks Film School is how often the other members of this community force me to reconsider positions that I never thought I would question.

Case in point: last Friday, I wrote that there was “virtually no chance” the Knicks would use their non-taxpayer midlevel exception this summer because it would hard cap them at the first tax apron. Doing so would mean they’d be unable to make any trade where the incoming salary would bring their total cap number above $178.6 million, which is not a restriction I ever imagined they’d voluntary take on.

Clearly, the overwhelming national narrative from the last few years had incepted my brain. The Knicks will be on the hunt for (another) star player until the end of time, and they would not do anything to compromise that endeavor - including hard capping themselves.

Shame on me for being so obtuse, not because the front office is going to abandon their search for star talent anytime soon, but because they’ve shown a willingness to leave no stone unturned, even if that means occasionally threading a needle.

What might that mean for the summer ahead? Let’s refresh ourselves on New York’s cap outlook to help us answer that question.

Lil’ Leeway?

Right now, if we go by our assumed ‘24-25 salaries for OG Anunoby ($35 million) and Isaiah Hartenstein ($16.2 million), the Knicks would have $180.4 million on the books with those two players plus Julius, Jalen, Josh, Mitch, Donte, Deuce, Jericho, Bogey and both first round picks. That total, obviously, is above the first apron, and we haven’t even given them a veteran or two for the bench (although NBA rules only require you to have 12 roster spots filled, so technically they could leave the roster as is in this scenario).

The big wild card is Bogey, whose ‘24-25 salary is only guaranteed for $2 million but who I’ve been assuming they’ll guarantee for the full $19 million, either because they already have a trade lined up, or worst case, so they could save it as fungible salary to use later.

That was before I recorded this week’s “Cap or No Cap” with cap maestro Jeremy Cohen. In the episode, he asked a very simple question: what if the Knicks don’t have a trade teed up for when the offseason kicks off in a few weeks? Would they still bypass the full midlevel and keep Bogey out of an abundance of caution?

The question stopped me in my tracks, not because it was out of left field, but because it was so obvious. It’s entirely possible that there won’t be anything on the horizon by the end of June, to the point that even mutually agreeing to push back the Bogdanovic guarantee date a few days won’t make a difference.

Again, I’d been assuming all the while that they’d rather have his salary on the books than have it simply vanish into thin air, but in doing so, they’d almost certainly be resigning themselves to first apron status even if they traded away one of their first rounders in the upcoming draft.

It begged the question of what’s more desirable: being a first apron team that isn’t hard capped, or being hard capped at the apron with some wiggle room to maneuver?

And that’s when Jeremy brought me back to my previous assumption, and had me wondering whether I should be so sure the Knicks won’t use their non-taxpayer mid-level exception, which is worth a not-insignificant $12.86 million for the upcoming season.

All Roads Lead to Bogey

To answer the question, we have to go back to Bogey.

If the Knicks non-guarantee his contract, they’d be left with a $2 million cap hit on their books. Added to the salary totals I listed above, they’d have $163.34 million in commitments, which is about $15.5 million under the first apron / hard cap. Using the full MLE would leave them dangerously close to the apron, especially considering two additional factors:

The Knicks would probably want to fill out the back end of the roster with a reliable vet or two, which would add a little less than $2 million a pop per player.

When the NBA calculates team salary in relation to the apron, unlikely bonuses are included in the total. That means two unlikely bonus that don’t count for normal cap purposes - Julius Randle’ $1,378,080 bonus which he missed because he played under 65 games, and Donte DiVincenzo’s $750,000 bonus tied to various postseason awards - will count when calculating whether they hit the hard cap.

So, with that in mind, is there a world where they still sign someone to all or most of the non-taxpayer MLE? This is where the devil truly is in the details, and a few other factors will come into play, namely:

$35 million has been tossed around as both a starting salary and an average salary for OG Anunoby, but those are two very different things. If his average salary on a four-year deal is $35 million, his salary for next season could start as low as $31 million if we assume max raises. On a five-year deal, it could start even lower. On the flip side, his max salary next season is $42 million. Whether he’s on the higher or lower end of this spectrum could make an eight-figure difference.

We’ve heard conflicting reports about whether the Knicks intend to use both of their first round selections in the upcoming draft. If they move one of those picks and it was replaced by a minimum roster charge, they’d save something in the neighborhood of $1.5 million next season. Move both, and they’d save close to $3 million.

This would be a bit drastic, but the Knicks have the option of stretching the $2 million cap hit that would come from waiving Bogey. That would get them an additional $1.33 million in wiggle room for ‘24-25.

Finally, teams don’t have to spend their entire MLE, although the Knicks may need to use the entire $12.86 million to make a competitive offer for a player with multiple suitors.

Speaking of suitors, hers’ something that isn’t exactly working in New York’s favor: as of now, only about a third of the league is slated to be in the tax, give or take a few teams. That means around 20 teams will be able to outbid or equal the Knicks’ offer for any player, either using cap space or their own non-taxpayer MLE

In the past, there have traditionally been quite a few teams that hoard cap space because they aren’t making a playoff push, but that all changed with the introduction of the salary floor and the play-in tournament. Other than Washington and maybe Charlotte and Portland, every team in the league will enter next season with its sights set on the playoffs, or at the very least, the play-in.

Not that the Knicks don’t have some built-in advantages. For one, they’re good, and players would rather suit up for a winner, all things being equal. Second, it’s New York, which will always carry some level of appeal. Third, and perhaps most interestingly, there is a clearly defined role up for grabs: second unit engine.

In a perfect world, New York would grab an offensive initiator who would come off the bench but also be able to play alongside Jalen Brunson. As Fred Katz and I discussed on the pod a few weeks ago, that’s the whole reason they acquired Alec Burks. In theory, he would have been able to swing between both roles. With nearly $13 million at their disposal next season, they should be able to find a younger, better option.

There’s only one problem: there’s no player on the free agent market who checks all of those ideal boxes, and those that come close will be priced out of the Knicks’ range.

Cross-Offs

The best available bench guards this summer are Malik Monk and D’Angelo Russell. Neither of these guys have the defensive chops that the Knicks would like, but they’re both offensively gifted enough that New York would hold their nose and look the other way if they could get either for the right price.

Except they probably can’t. Malik Monk may be up for a contract nearly double the MLE after finishing second in 6th Man of the Year voting last season. As for D-Lo, he has an $18.7 million player option that he’s reportedly set to decline. There’s no way he does that to take significantly less money.

Chris Paul is a name that has come up in connection with the Knicks in the past, mostly because of his relationship with former agent Leon Rose. In recent years though, Paul has reportedly wanted to remain close to his family’s Southern California home. That would make either of the LA teams a more likely outcome, or even just staying in Golden State on a smaller deal.

Attainable Point Guards

Among guys who might have to settle for the full MLE, Tyus Jones is probably the best of the bunch.

Jones’ name came up in connection to the Knicks before the deadline last season, but they were reportedly more enamored with trades that would return at least one player who could potentially be under contract for next season. Hence, Bogey and his partially guaranteed contract found their way to New York, and Jones remained in Washington.

Now the former Dukie is free to sign with anyone he wishes, and he will have a robust market. Jones is coming off his best year as a pro, starting 66 games for Washington and putting up the best numbers as a pro, including a sterling 56.9 effective field goal percentage.

The problem with Jones is his size. At a slight 6'2", you know Thibs would have qualms playing him alongside Deuce McBride, let alone Jalen Brunson. There’s also a history between Jones and Thibodeau dating back to their two and a half years together in Minnesota, when the then backup point guard didn’t see the floor quite as much as he’d have liked to.

A bigger option would be former first overall pick Markelle Fultz. Fultz briefly revived his career in Orlando when he started 60 games in the 2022-23 campaign and averaged career highs across the board. This season was a step back though, defined by more injuries, inefficiency, and the loss of his starting job.

Fultz just turned 26 and there’s still an interesting player in there somewhere, even if he has completely abandoned his 3-point shot. That said, the full MLE would be too rich a bet, and not worth the potential pitfalls that come with the hard cap.

Bargain Hunting

Even though the Knicks could get access to their full non-taxpayer MLE, that isn’t the only exception available to them.

They could also use the taxpayer mid-level exception, which is for less money than it’s non-taxpayer alternative. It’s worth about $5.2 million for next season, and while you won’t be able to get quite as good a player with that amount, it does come with one major benefit: teams that use it aren’t hard-capped at the first apron. Instead, taxpayer MLE users are hard capped at the second apron, which the Knicks don’t figure to top this season, especially if they non-guarantee Bogdanovic.

They can also feel a bit better about using this for immediate help and not risk a long term financial investment¹. Fultz would be one option, but if the M.O. is to find someone to juice the backup unit, they could probably do better for less money.

We should all be thankful that the days of Russell Westbrook-to-the-Knicks rumors are long gone, but now that he’s entered a new phase of his career, could Russ be an option for New York? The former MVP didn’t exactly go out in a blaze of glory in the postseason, shooting 26 percent from the field in LA’s six-game defeat at the hands of the Mavs. Even so, I wonder if they’d consider him as a fallback option if nothing else came to fruition.

After that, it gets pretty gnarly. Kyle Lowry seems like he wants to remain in Philly, and he’s not exactly a backcourt juicer at this phase of his career anyway.

Monte Morris? Patrick Beverly? Spencer Dinwiddie? You have to figure the front office will have its sights set a bit higher, especially if they’re going to dispense with the Bogey salary slot.

But if they’ve shown us anything, its that when life gives you lemons, go find some sugar and a spoon,

No, the perfect bench initiator who fits their price range may not exist on the free agent market, but that doesn’t mean the full MLE won’t be an option.

They just might need to think a little outside the box.




First and foremost I would like to reiterate that Macri sucks.

However I did not realize this cap **** has gotten this complicated. So we’re gonna have to move mountains to sign a good free agent this year? **** is going on? Adam Silver stays being an annoying ass alien who makes bad choices for the league.


Macri may be annoying but let me know where you find fault with that analysis. And, yes, it's gotten complicated. Good thing Leon has a great support staff. :lol:

How Alec Burks looking now? :D
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#382 » by G_K_F » Tue Jun 11, 2024 3:07 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Hes_On_Fire wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
From Macri’s newsletter:



First and foremost I would like to reiterate that Macri sucks.

However I did not realize this cap **** has gotten this complicated. So we’re gonna have to move mountains to sign a good free agent this year? **** is going on? Adam Silver stays being an annoying ass alien who makes bad choices for the league.


Macri may be annoying but let me know where you find fault with that analysis. And, yes, it's gotten complicated. Good thing Leon has a great support staff. :lol:

How Alec Burks looking now? :D

Still bad.
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#383 » by seren » Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:00 am

Watching the Celtics dominate the playoffs, I came to the conclusion that we should not let be good be the enemy of perfect. I love our players but if there is any way to upgrade (not sideways but true upgrades), we should not hesitate to make trades. The ideal world is where every player on the floor can play both sides of the game. Celtics going from decent players like Marcus Smart and Grant Williams to Jrue and Porzingis were excellent moves. If we can upgrade any position, rather moving Mitchell for a two way center or Hart for a true second/third option, we should not hesitate for one second.
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#384 » by NiceLikeChrist » Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:23 am

sol537 wrote:
Richard4444 wrote:I don't know why people think great young players such as Eason, Murphy, Deni, and Herb Jones are available and cheap. This kind of player is moved in exchange for stars.


We found ways to get Brunson, Hart, OG, iHart, and DDV without emptying the warchest. We can figure out ways to get more great young players to add to the mix. Not every great young’ish player is untouchable. Far from it.


DDV and Hart weren’t “great” players when we got them. They’re playing their best basketball as Knicks.

We kinda did give up a lot to get OG. And Brunson we just signed with some good old tampering.

Established young players already playing great basketball will be hard to get without giving up a lot of assets.
NiceLikeChrist wrote:We are going to deeply regret this. We traded away the best player in the trade and still had to give up a great role player AND a pick?

so many people are going to eat their words about randle
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#385 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:28 am

Hes_On_Fire wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Hes_On_Fire wrote:
First and foremost I would like to reiterate that Macri sucks.

However I did not realize this cap **** has gotten this complicated. So we’re gonna have to move mountains to sign a good free agent this year? **** is going on? Adam Silver stays being an annoying ass alien who makes bad choices for the league.


Macri may be annoying but let me know where you find fault with that analysis. And, yes, it's gotten complicated. Good thing Leon has a great support staff. :lol:

How Alec Burks looking now? :D

Still bad.

You got a better option?
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#386 » by thebuzzardman » Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:45 am

This thread more boring than the finals
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#387 » by G_K_F » Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:50 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Hes_On_Fire wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Macri may be annoying but let me know where you find fault with that analysis. And, yes, it's gotten complicated. Good thing Leon has a great support staff. :lol:

How Alec Burks looking now? :D

Still bad.

You got a better option?

Draft someone.
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#388 » by Knick4Real » Tue Jun 11, 2024 5:44 am

Hes_On_Fire wrote:First and foremost I would like to reiterate that Macri sucks.

However I did not realize this cap **** has gotten this complicated. So we’re gonna have to move mountains to sign a good free agent this year? **** is going on? Adam Silver stays being an annoying ass alien who makes bad choices for the league.


Silver's mission was to stop the practice Lebron started by taking 3 stars to 1 team and leaving the rest of the league to suck. It was like putting all the strong kids on one end of the rope in a game of tug-of-war, while all the weaklings were on the other side. The game was becoming uninteresting.

Silver was right to stop certain teams from loading up with stars while other teams got no one. It's just too bad the rule happened now when the KNICKS were finally at a place where we could do it, too. :banghead:
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#389 » by rajajackal » Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:08 am

you guys don't realize hartenstein is good being the enemy of perfect. he is a solid all around player. mitch is exceptionally talented at a few things (defense, winning tips, and lobs). hartenstein's the good guy you let go for something better. or you sign him on a cheap deal as a backup and find a starting center more exceptional than mitch via/after a trade
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#390 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:39 am

Hes_On_Fire wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Hes_On_Fire wrote:Still bad.

You got a better option?

Draft someone.

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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#391 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:45 am

rajajackal wrote:you guys don't realize hartenstein is good being the enemy of perfect. he is a solid all around player. mitch is exceptionally talented at a few things (defense, winning tips, and lobs). hartenstein's the good guy you let go for something better. or you sign him on a cheap deal as a backup and find a starting center more exceptional than mitch via/after a trade


And ... ? :lol:

You have to play the cards we're dealt. That means that Hartenstein will leave if we don't pay him $16-7 million/year. Then what happens? Who do you want to trade for and what are you willing to give up for that - as of now - fictitious center.

I think that we have to sign I-Hart to that deal. If anything, maybe then we trade Mitch and a pick or two for some package that brings us back a serviceable backup center who Thibs will trust/play along with whatever else we get back in return. But I have no idea what that deal will look like. Who's out there that's available?
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#392 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Jun 11, 2024 8:47 am

seren wrote:Watching the Celtics dominate the playoffs, I came to the conclusion that we should not let be good be the enemy of perfect. I love our players but if there is any way to upgrade (not sideways but true upgrades), we should not hesitate to make trades. The ideal world is where every player on the floor can play both sides of the game. Celtics going from decent players like Marcus Smart and Grant Williams to Jrue and Porzingis were excellent moves. If we can upgrade any position, rather moving Mitchell for a two way center or Hart for a true second/third option, we should not hesitate for one second.


Bojan + picks for:

1. Brogdan?

2. Deni Advija?

3. DeRozan?

4. Caruso and Dosumu?
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#393 » by Richard4444 » Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:44 am

Knick4Real wrote:
Hes_On_Fire wrote:First and foremost I would like to reiterate that Macri sucks.

However I did not realize this cap **** has gotten this complicated. So we’re gonna have to move mountains to sign a good free agent this year? **** is going on? Adam Silver stays being an annoying ass alien who makes bad choices for the league.


Silver's mission was to stop the practice Lebron started by taking 3 stars to 1 team and leaving the rest of the league to suck. It was like putting all the strong kids on one end of the rope in a game of tug-of-war, while all the weaklings were on the other side. The game was becoming uninteresting.

Silver was right to stop certain teams from loading up with stars while other teams got no one. It's just too bad the rule happened now when the KNICKS were finally at a place where we could do it, too. :banghead:


The knicks háve always bad Luck.

In 2019, the first season with flattened draft odds, we had the worst campaign.

Now when we finally have stars and assets and we could overspend to build a superteam, the rules changes to promote equality.
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#394 » by Richard4444 » Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:58 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
seren wrote:Watching the Celtics dominate the playoffs, I came to the conclusion that we should not let be good be the enemy of perfect. I love our players but if there is any way to upgrade (not sideways but true upgrades), we should not hesitate to make trades. The ideal world is where every player on the floor can play both sides of the game. Celtics going from decent players like Marcus Smart and Grant Williams to Jrue and Porzingis were excellent moves. If we can upgrade any position, rather moving Mitchell for a two way center or Hart for a true second/third option, we should not hesitate for one second.


Bojan + picks for:

1. Brogdan?

2. Deni Advija?

3. DeRozan?

4. Caruso and Dosumu?


Why would the Wizards and the Bulls trade Deni and Ayo? They are young and cheap. They would not hurt a rebuilding process and they can break out or stat pat in this scenario.

I don't know if dealing Ayo would help Chicago to compete now. It's good to have players like him locked in cheap contracts due to CAP restrictions.
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#395 » by Wildcat » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:01 am

seren wrote:Watching the Celtics dominate the playoffs, I came to the conclusion that we should not let be good be the enemy of perfect. I love our players but if there is any way to upgrade (not sideways but true upgrades), we should not hesitate to make trades. The ideal world is where every player on the floor can play both sides of the game. Celtics going from decent players like Marcus Smart and Grant Williams to Jrue and Porzingis were excellent moves. If we can upgrade any position, rather moving Mitchell for a two way center or Hart for a true second/third option, we should not hesitate for one second.


Agreed. But we do need to see what this team looks like without injuries.

Remember, Smart was not not originally suppose to be traded. I think they got exceptionally lucky that the original trade fall through that allowed Malcolm to be traded to Portland. There's no way Portland takes Smart in that deal.
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#396 » by HopelessKnick » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:02 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
seren wrote:Watching the Celtics dominate the playoffs, I came to the conclusion that we should not let be good be the enemy of perfect. I love our players but if there is any way to upgrade (not sideways but true upgrades), we should not hesitate to make trades. The ideal world is where every player on the floor can play both sides of the game. Celtics going from decent players like Marcus Smart and Grant Williams to Jrue and Porzingis were excellent moves. If we can upgrade any position, rather moving Mitchell for a two way center or Hart for a true second/third option, we should not hesitate for one second.


Bojan + picks for:

1. Brogdan?

2. Deni Advija?

3. DeRozan?

4. Caruso and Dosumu?


I don't think the Chicago guys are all that realistic. Chicago has shown zero inclination in wanting to deal Caruso so he'd cost an excessive price relative to his actual value. DeRozan is a poor fit with Brunson as he likes to operate in the same spaces, is due for an extension and at 34years is on the decline already (although I do admit he is still pretty darn good).

I think Brogdon is the obvious fit. His only downside though is a significant one--being injury prone. Other than that he checks all the boxes: high IQ guy, low turnover rate, very good shooter, can organize an offense as a secondary playmaker, can play off the ball, at 6'5 has enough size to effectively guard 2s next to Brunson, solid defender, has experience, isn't too old and his contract is good and runs only for 2 more years so you can transition him to a veteran minimum deal afterwards. Great free throw shooter on top and most importantly: the team you are dealing with would probably be willing to trade him for expirings and draft capital. Bogs and a FRP is a deal Portland would likely consider. They are guard heavy with Scoot, Sharpe and Simons so it makes sense for them. They seem to want to build around Scoot and Sharpe and have been dangling Brogdon and Simons.

Another important point in favor of Brogdon is that he is not the type of starter/bench guy that you are obliged to play 35minutes because otherwise he'd cause trouble. I think he'd be the perfect backup for the 1 and 2 for the next two years, playing around 25 minutes a game which would hopefully keep him more healthy. In Boston he managed to play almost 70 games at around 26 minutes a game. Also if you deal Bogs for him, you have essentially swapped one injury prone player for another so you aren't getting more injury prone as a team.
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#397 » by Wildcat » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:13 am

I don't think the Knicks mind the apron if they're comfortable with their team.
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#398 » by Juco24 » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:30 am

thebuzzardman wrote:This thread more boring than the finals


Got that right!! Who in da hell reading and anal-yzing that much on hypotheticals. Lol
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#399 » by Fury » Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:57 pm

Alex Caruso has one year left on his contract. He might not be attainable cause the Bulls front office loves having an average team, but his price should come down.
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Re: More Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread 

Post#400 » by rajajackal » Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:07 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
rajajackal wrote:you guys don't realize hartenstein is good being the enemy of perfect. he is a solid all around player. mitch is exceptionally talented at a few things (defense, winning tips, and lobs). hartenstein's the good guy you let go for something better. or you sign him on a cheap deal as a backup and find a starting center more exceptional than mitch via/after a trade


And ... ? :lol:

You have to play the cards we're dealt. That means that Hartenstein will leave if we don't pay him $16-7 million/year. Then what happens? Who do you want to trade for and what are you willing to give up for that - as of now - fictitious center.

I think that we have to sign I-Hart to that deal. If anything, maybe then we trade Mitch and a pick or two for some package that brings us back a serviceable backup center who Thibs will trust/play along with whatever else we get back in return. But I have no idea what that deal will look like. Who's out there that's available?

i'm saying that i'd rather keep mitch on his contract and find another backup than shell out a bag for hartenstein. i think investing in him as our starting center after seeing what elite bigs did to him in the playoffs is a mistake

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