PG Knicks/Lakers

[NY2k1]

I don't think Mikal has any history of being a "two-way force".

He was a 3&D role player in Phoenix, their 4th option in their run to the Finals behind Book, CP3 and Ayton.

His role expanded in Brooklyn and he had a few good months when he got there but his game regressed to the mean and fell back down to Earth last season, his ppg even falling below 20.0 despite the Nets' overall lack of talent.

Worse, his 3-point shot and his defense declined significantly.

I don't think he's bad at all. He's an above-average role player who does nothing remarkably well. His best asset now is his switchability but I don't think it's even translating into meaningful defensive impact.

There's nothing forceful about his game or his impact on the court imo.

Like Cohen said on KFS, he's fine but you don't trade your entire draft capital for "fine".

He was on the NBA All Defensive First team in 2022. I guess they were all wrong. And he is still a very good defender, just go and re-watch the game against the Warriors, for example. It’s easy to discard that and point towards erratic shooting. But it’s not a consistent argument. The picks are likely to be very underwhelming and picks in general have lost value and have also become much easier to acquire, this is not 2010 anymore. Times have changed and switchable defenders that you can also trust with the ball in high-pressure situations are very rare. He is automatic from mid-range, and a great slasher. Decent shooter. I’ve expected more, but I’m glad we have him.

We live in 2025, not 2022.

His defense has declined considerably since. The way things were 3 years ago is irrelevant today. He hasn't made an All-NBA defensive team since.

He's no longer a great defender today. And his 3-point shot has fallen off. He doesn't provide much in terms of playmaking. His best shot is the most inefficient in basketball. He's a "great slasher"? How? He barely attacks the basket and he never gets to the FT line.

You assuming the picks will not amount to much and dismissing the risk completely ignores the fact that the NBA is a hugely volatile environment. You can't take anything for granted, just look at the Suns. It only takes a locker room fracture, a bad trade or an injury to Brunson to send the Knicks into a tailspin.

Mikal has good games and bad games. Some great plays every now and then. On the whole, he has been nothing more than above-average or as Cohen put it, "fine".

This is not worth all the draft capital we sent out.

I think you like the idea of him moreso than him as a player.

If Giannis actually gets put on the trade block at any point, I'd easily ship Mikal and KAT for him.

[Gravy]

Very winnable game. KAT and Mikal were terrible offensively, and the bench with only 14pts. Ducking the smoke in all this is Deuce with zero points.

Hopefully Payne starts over him with Brunson missing a handful of games. I’ve seen Deuce at starting PG and it doesn’t work. Payne isn’t good either but he does have a few PG skills

Everyone wanted Deuce to start instead of Hart a game ago because that would fix everything. Then Hart puts up 18/10 while Deuce cant make one bucket. I dont think it matters much between Deuce or Payne, I'd prefer Deuce but they are both limited.

[kNicksGmen]

He’s getting double teamed in the post and he’s even struggling to seal his man down low. And when he does get the ball in the post he’s throwing it away. Not sure what you expect Thibs to do. Was it Thibs fault KAT struggled the same way in the WCF?

finch is very comparable to thibs as far as offensive system. they also lack a playmaking PG/guard - similar to us.

brunson slow walks the ball up the court so by the time the 1st action is even ran there's sub 14 seconds on the clock

just compare how Kat plays in the 2nd unit - why is cam payne able to get Kat better shots than brunson?

What type of shots though? And when cam is out there he’s usually going against bench units.

wide open 3s at the top of the key with the occasional easy layup on PnR. The main thing I feel like Brunson never hits Kat on are the trail 3s and the pick n pop 3s. He has tunnel vision when he feels he creates the advantage and then goes to get his own shot. which in his defense he is elite at it so can't complain too much.

I'm not trying to turn this into a pro Kat anti Thibs/brunson back and forth. I'm realistic about what Kat is/isn't.

Kat has 93 FGs made assisted by Brunson... 71 by hart, 46 by payne, 44 by bridges, 32 by mcbride.

Towns has played 522 minutes with Payne and 1387 with brunson. which means payne rate of assisting Kat is 31% higher than brunson. now that makes sense due to a 2nd unit with Kat he is going to be featured more. but Payne is not exactly a pass first PG yet he is feeding Kat significantly more than brunson. Payne-Kat lineups have a 118.5 offensive rating, 108.3 def rating for a 10.1 net rating. brunson+kat lineups is 119.4 offensive rating, 114.3 def rating for net of 5.1.

if you look at the knicks highest used lineups in terms of 3 players sharing the court - ALL of the best performing lineups include Kat.

[robillionaire]

Very winnable game. KAT and Mikal were terrible offensively, and the bench with only 14pts. Ducking the smoke in all this is Deuce with zero points.

Hopefully Payne starts over him with Brunson missing a handful of games. I’ve seen Deuce at starting PG and it doesn’t work. Payne isn’t good either but he does have a few PG skills

Everyone wanted Deuce to start instead of Hart a game ago because that would fix everything. Then Hart puts up 18/10 while Deuce cant make one bucket. I dont think it matters much between Deuce or Payne, I'd prefer Deuce but they are both limited.

They are both limited but I actually think Payne is the better distributor and probably can drive the bus and run the offense if he doesn’t go full chuck mode.

[3toheadmelo]

Even if I were to play devils advocate and say he’s the worst defensive C in the league it wouldn’t change anything he still has a +303 plus minus which is highest on the team and still an all star starter so frankly I don’t care

Watch on YouTube

You don’t care but everyone around the league does

Going back to those games against top-10 offenses, Towns has allowed opponents in those games to shoot 63% from the field -- ranking 346th out of 346 players to contest at least 50 shots against those teams, per ESPN Research.

On layups and dunks in those games, Towns is allowing 70% shooting -- and opponents are shooting 60% overall on layups and dunks against him, which is the worst mark of any player to contest at least 300 of them.

Attacking this man after his best friend just died. This is like the people booing Dennis Brick Jr and chanting for Frank when his mamaw died and he played through it. Horrible fanbase!!!!!

His girl’s best friend*

But idk he’s been ass against the top contenders. Hopefully he turns it around in the post season

[DaGawd]

At least until Brunson comes back, it's time to see what Tyler Kolek can do as a starter.

LOL

[Jalen Bluntson]

I don't think Mikal has any history of being a "two-way force".

He was a 3&D role player in Phoenix, their 4th option in their run to the Finals behind Book, CP3 and Ayton.

His role expanded in Brooklyn and he had a few good months when he got there but his game regressed to the mean and fell back down to Earth last season, his ppg even falling below 20.0 despite the Nets' overall lack of talent.

Worse, his 3-point shot and his defense declined significantly.

I don't think he's bad at all. He's an above-average role player who does nothing remarkably well. His best asset now is his switchability but I don't think it's even translating into meaningful defensive impact.

There's nothing forceful about his game or his impact on the court imo.

Like Cohen said on KFS, he's fine but you don't trade your entire draft capital for "fine".

He was on the NBA All Defensive First team in 2022. I guess they were all wrong. And he is still a very good defender, just go and re-watch the game against the Warriors, for example. It’s easy to discard that and point towards erratic shooting. But it’s not a consistent argument. The picks are likely to be very underwhelming and picks in general have lost value and have also become much easier to acquire, this is not 2010 anymore. Times have changed and switchable defenders that you can also trust with the ball in high-pressure situations are very rare. He is automatic from mid-range, and a great slasher. Decent shooter. I’ve expected more, but I’m glad we have him.

We live in 2025, not 2022.

His defense has declined considerably since. The way things were 3 years ago is irrelevant today. He hasn't made an All-NBA defensive team since.

He's no longer a great defender today. And his 3-point shot has fallen off. He doesn't provide much in terms of playmaking. His best shot is the most inefficient in basketball. He's a "great slasher"? How? He barely attacks the basket and he never gets to the FT line.

You assuming the picks will not amount to much and dismissing the risk completely ignores the fact that the NBA is a hugely volatile environment. You can't take anything for granted, just look at the Suns. It only takes a locker room fracture, a bad trade or an injury to Brunson to send the Knicks into a tailspin.

Mikal has good games and bad games. Some great plays every now and then. On the whole, he has been nothing more than above-average or as Cohen put it, "fine".

This is not worth all the draft capital we sent out.

I think you like the idea of him moreso than him as a player.

He will never live up to the price tag. That's not on him. He has been nothing more than above average. He hasn't been the shyt show people make him out to be but, we overpaid for him. Again, that's not on him. He was worth those picks in December though.

If we had more defined roles and plays for each guy to get their shots where they are comfortable then maybe we would see better numbers from everyone. We simply don't do that. Maybe it will look better next year. Maybe it will click during the playoffs. Maybe we aren't done gelling and defining everyone's roles here. I lean towards the HC being a lazy slob on offense but, that's just me(and about a million other fans).

[Gravy]

KAT getting exposed by all the top contenders is extremely worrisome. He looks like one of the best big men in the league against bad teams and then looks very mid against contenders. Mikal does the same thing too. Very sad we went all in on fake stars.

I've never seen this many excuses and deflection for a star having bad games. Randle would put up 25/10/5 in a win and folks would be furious over one bad defensive play. KAT went 3-13 so Thibs is making him miss open shots and get stripped under the rim and throw passes out of bounds and not put his hands up on defense

[dakomish23]

Watch this. The entire crunchtime Thib offense is Brunson save my ass. I think we got one OG layup and that was when the Lakers were scrambling from player to player and it was a difficult shot.

There's never anything easy in a Thibs offense.

Watch on YouTube

Brunson is such a warrior. The best signing of the 2020s.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Hopefully Payne starts over him with Brunson missing a handful of games. I’ve seen Deuce at starting PG and it doesn’t work. Payne isn’t good either but he does have a few PG skills

Everyone wanted Deuce to start instead of Hart a game ago because that would fix everything. Then Hart puts up 18/10 while Deuce cant make one bucket. I dont think it matters much between Deuce or Payne, I'd prefer Deuce but they are both limited.

They are both limited but I actually think Payne is the better distributor and probably can drive the bus and run the offense if he doesn’t go full chuck mode.

People wanted Deuce next to Brunson not in place of him. I would start Payne over Deuce in this situation and tell him to orchestrate and not chuck away OR, Hart can handle pushing the tempo too and let Deuce help on POA defense and taking open threes. If Hart's not gonna shoot and keep the defense honest then run it down their throats. It's what he is really good at.

This really sucks to be having this discussion. I'm gut punched with the idea of losing Brunson for any length of time.

[god shammgod]

At least until Brunson comes back, it's time to see what Tyler Kolek can do as a starter.

LOL

this is a wild place

[3toheadmelo]

KAT getting exposed by all the top contenders is extremely worrisome. He looks like one of the best big men in the league against bad teams and then looks very mid against contenders. Mikal does the same thing too. Very sad we went all in on fake stars.

I've never seen this many excuses and deflection for a star having bad games. Randle would put up 25/10/5 in a win and folks would be furious over one bad defensive play. KAT went 3-13 so Thibs is making him miss open shots and get stripped under the rim and throw passes out of bounds and not put his hands up on defense

They did the same thing for RJ. Blame everyone besides the player. Same thing for Frank. They’re always on the wrong side of history.

[NY2k1]

At least until Brunson comes back, it's time to see what Tyler Kolek can do as a starter.

LOL

I mean, if Brunson is out for even a couple of weeks, what exactly is your alternative? Cam Payne is what he is.

[Fury]

Has Mikal been asked in the post game by anyone why he’s so passive on offense?

[robillionaire]

He was on the NBA All Defensive First team in 2022. I guess they were all wrong. And he is still a very good defender, just go and re-watch the game against the Warriors, for example. It’s easy to discard that and point towards erratic shooting. But it’s not a consistent argument. The picks are likely to be very underwhelming and picks in general have lost value and have also become much easier to acquire, this is not 2010 anymore. Times have changed and switchable defenders that you can also trust with the ball in high-pressure situations are very rare. He is automatic from mid-range, and a great slasher. Decent shooter. I’ve expected more, but I’m glad we have him.

We live in 2025, not 2022.

His defense has declined considerably since. The way things were 3 years ago is irrelevant today. He hasn't made an All-NBA defensive team since.

He's no longer a great defender today. And his 3-point shot has fallen off. He doesn't provide much in terms of playmaking. His best shot is the most inefficient in basketball. He's a "great slasher"? How? He barely attacks the basket and he never gets to the FT line.

You assuming the picks will not amount to much and dismissing the risk completely ignores the fact that the NBA is a hugely volatile environment. You can't take anything for granted, just look at the Suns. It only takes a locker room fracture, a bad trade or an injury to Brunson to send the Knicks into a tailspin.

Mikal has good games and bad games. Some great plays every now and then. On the whole, he has been nothing more than above-average or as Cohen put it, "fine".

This is not worth all the draft capital we sent out.

I think you like the idea of him moreso than him as a player.

He will never live up to the price tag. That's not on him. He has been nothing more than above average. He hasn't been the shyt show people make him out to be but, we overpaid for him. Again, that's not on him. He was worth those picks in December though.

If we had more defined roles and plays for each guy to get their shots where they are comfortable then maybe we would see better numbers from everyone. We simply don't do that. Maybe it will look better next year. Maybe it will click during the playoffs. Maybe we aren't done gelling and defining everyone's roles here. I lean towards the HC being a lazy slob on offense but, that's just me(and about a million other fans).

I am willing to be fair to him and not consider the “price tag” but even if you ignore all that his play has left a lot to be desired. Like even if we just picked him up as a free agent and are paying him his salary. I dunno if we should even pay to bring him back

[robillionaire]

Everyone wanted Deuce to start instead of Hart a game ago because that would fix everything. Then Hart puts up 18/10 while Deuce cant make one bucket. I dont think it matters much between Deuce or Payne, I'd prefer Deuce but they are both limited.

They are both limited but I actually think Payne is the better distributor and probably can drive the bus and run the offense if he doesn’t go full chuck mode.

People wanted Deuce next to Brunson not in place of him. I would start Payne over Deuce in this situation and tell him to orchestrate and not chuck away OR, Hart can handle pushing the tempo too and let Deuce help on POA defense and taking open threes. If Hart's not gonna shoot and keep the defense honest then run it down their throats. It's what he is really good at.

This really sucks to be having this discussion. I'm gut punched with the idea of losing Brunson for any length of time.

Assuming it’s not a bad injury, big assumption I know. But it might be good for the team to have to try to survive without him. Gets a lot of other players more opportunity and for us to see what they do with it

[Jalen Bluntson]

We live in 2025, not 2022.

His defense has declined considerably since. The way things were 3 years ago is irrelevant today. He hasn't made an All-NBA defensive team since.

He's no longer a great defender today. And his 3-point shot has fallen off. He doesn't provide much in terms of playmaking. His best shot is the most inefficient in basketball. He's a "great slasher"? How? He barely attacks the basket and he never gets to the FT line.

You assuming the picks will not amount to much and dismissing the risk completely ignores the fact that the NBA is a hugely volatile environment. You can't take anything for granted, just look at the Suns. It only takes a locker room fracture, a bad trade or an injury to Brunson to send the Knicks into a tailspin.

Mikal has good games and bad games. Some great plays every now and then. On the whole, he has been nothing more than above-average or as Cohen put it, "fine".

This is not worth all the draft capital we sent out.

I think you like the idea of him moreso than him as a player.

He will never live up to the price tag. That's not on him. He has been nothing more than above average. He hasn't been the shyt show people make him out to be but, we overpaid for him. Again, that's not on him. He was worth those picks in December though.

If we had more defined roles and plays for each guy to get their shots where they are comfortable then maybe we would see better numbers from everyone. We simply don't do that. Maybe it will look better next year. Maybe it will click during the playoffs. Maybe we aren't done gelling and defining everyone's roles here. I lean towards the HC being a lazy slob on offense but, that's just me(and about a million other fans).

I am willing to be fair to him and not consider the “price tag” but even if you ignore all that his play has left a lot to be desired. Like even if we just picked him up as a free agent and are paying him his salary. I dunno if we should even pay to bring him back

Yeah, no. Agree to disagree. He has not been as bad as people are making it out to be. Up and down the roster players are getting shyt on and we are 40-22. He was one of our best players for a month. He has won several games with his defense in the end. He's making 23mil and 24.5mil next year. Why he gets the slander he does is beyond me. Dude is available every night and plays more minutes than pretty much everyone in the league. For 23mil? Come on man.

[Jalen Bluntson]

They are both limited but I actually think Payne is the better distributor and probably can drive the bus and run the offense if he doesn’t go full chuck mode.

People wanted Deuce next to Brunson not in place of him. I would start Payne over Deuce in this situation and tell him to orchestrate and not chuck away OR, Hart can handle pushing the tempo too and let Deuce help on POA defense and taking open threes. If Hart's not gonna shoot and keep the defense honest then run it down their throats. It's what he is really good at.

This really sucks to be having this discussion. I'm gut punched with the idea of losing Brunson for any length of time.

Assuming it’s not a bad injury, big assumption I know. But it might be good for the team to have to try to survive without him. Gets a lot of other players more opportunity and for us to see what they do with it

Thibs is gonna shorten the rotation! He's would've wanted to start SIMS at PG!!

[robillionaire]

People wanted Deuce next to Brunson not in place of him. I would start Payne over Deuce in this situation and tell him to orchestrate and not chuck away OR, Hart can handle pushing the tempo too and let Deuce help on POA defense and taking open threes. If Hart's not gonna shoot and keep the defense honest then run it down their throats. It's what he is really good at.

This really sucks to be having this discussion. I'm gut punched with the idea of losing Brunson for any length of time.

Assuming it’s not a bad injury, big assumption I know. But it might be good for the team to have to try to survive without him. Gets a lot of other players more opportunity and for us to see what they do with it

Thibs is gonna shorten the rotation! He's would've wanted to start SIMS at PG!!

I wasn’t even talking about expanding the rotation I meant getting more shots for the players who actually play

[Spree2Houston]

I’m only holding onto these guys next year. The rest can go in the right trade

1)Brunson
2)OG
3)Mitch
4)McBride
5)Hart ( as a bench player and not starter)

The rest are soft and can go. We need to keep the dogs.