Knicks Core vs. Nets Core

[mrpoetryNmotion]

Wow.

26 pages?

[TKF]

tkf with all due respect you are not being quite so evenhanded as you customarily are. what if any are robin lopez's positive attributes? i see a basketball player who, while not so athletic as lee, still has a better set of basketball skills coming into the league than david lee possesses. maybe things are evening out but you make lee sound like james worthy and you make lopez seem like a stiff.

with the main thrust of the thread in mind, who in your opinion would make for a better piece of a core, lopez or lee?

I didn't know that this was a give brook some love session. I thought we were comparing players, I am only making lee seem like the player he has been for the past 4 years. We are talking about athlticism at this point right? well IMO.. Lee is closer to worthy athletically, and lopez is closer to stiff. that is just my opinion.....

Now if you are asking me too to say something positive about lopez, just to make lopez fans feel better , well sure... He is tall, pretty strong....ahhhh.. tall(or did I say that already).. has a nice set of skills around the basket, better than guys like dalembert and Noah for sure. Do I think he is or will be anything more than a good center, not really. I think his slow reaction time around the hoop and his lack lift will just limit him, I just don't see tremendous upside without those things... But in his defense his skillset will always make him a better player than more athletic guys like noah, and dalembert for sure...

i'm a knick fan always have been always will be.

but i am also a student of the game and a fan of good basketball. i admire athleticism just fine but i esteem basketball skills more. lopez seems to have come into the league with more basketball skills than lee possessed. in fact you mention noah-- lee was much like noah is. unskilled but athletic and energetic.

right or wrong?
to say that you are talking about lee as the player he has been for the past 4 years is disingenuous because it means that he came into the league with the same skills he has since developed. not trying to beg the question here but are you saying he has not improved and it is just taking less astute fans to catch up with reality?

lopez is not close to being a stiff, come on. hasheem thabeet taken at #2-- now THERE'S a stiff for you.

actually lee was nothing like noah. and as a student of the game and a big fan of the game, I watch a lot of college games as well. Living in georgia, I got to see a lot of lee in the SEC... His game then, was very similar to what it is now, except his jumper is a bit better and game more polished. But in college under donovan lee would get the ball in the post and he had a nice semi hook shot he hit of the glass. He would score as a trailer on breaks and was also a good passer in college. Noah was very unskilled, but tall and athletic.. Lee being just 6'9 didn't just get over on athleticism, not in that system, he always was a good passer and a guy who could finish with both hands and hit a shot from 12 feet and in... So really, I can't agree with you there. He and noah were not the same player.

lopez is not close to being a stiff, come on. hasheem thabeet taken at #2-- now THERE'S a stiff for you

no lopez is not a stiff, but funny you mention thabeet. I think he has a loooong way to go, but his upside as a defender is tremendous, and that is what we are talking about here. Not that he will reach that potential, but thabeets potential as a defensive force may be higher than lopez as a player period... offensively, thabeet is far , far away from resembling a NBA center, but I think he was taken for his defensive upside. This is where I question lopez upside, what will he excell in? what will he bring to the table that will cause trouble for teams. I think what we see now is what we will get. Of course he will gain more experience and more polish to his game, but how much better will that make him.. that is where I am caught in the middle and question his upside.. but hey, I can be wrong here.. I just don't think so.... but time will tell for sure...

[Paeds]

Lee was second in the league in double-doubles. I mean, he's not a certified all star but borderline allstar is a fair appointment imho. He fits the system well despite the lack of range because he makes up for it. Lee has slowly developed a solid, somewhat reliable jumper. He has very nice passing skills, athleticism, great finishing around the basket, and agility. Those are all helpful in the system. His lack of a true guaranteed jumper is the only thing holding him back from being a perfect fit offensively, his lack of defense is why I don't really care if we keep him or not.

Lee was first I believe

[kane2021]

1st by 2.

[dk7th]

lopez has size and he has a willingness to learn the game. he is a legitimate post player who, if he learns how to pass out of double teams, will be part of a good core. harris is the problem for the nets. why? because in terms of a traditional role and the skills that belong to that role harrris is more wanting as a point guard than lopez as a center. plus no way will lopez rest on non-existent laurels. he will continue to expand his game in spite of, or perhaps because of, his relative lack of athleticism.

this is where the art and skill of passing becomes paramount. basketball being a team game requires that each player be able to pass the ball well and, beyond that, be able to make a playmaking pass.

if we can't agree on this point then there is no point in continuing a dialogue.

so my point here would be that, to the degree that lopez is being doubled because of his ability to score-- as opposed to being doubled because opponents feel they can cause a turnover because lopez is a doofus-- to that same degree he must be able to make the sort of playmaking pass that the better centers have been known for: passes to cutters out of doubles or passes out of doubles that lead to passes to an open man. in both cases a good sense of timing and a good court vision are important.

j4remi made a great point that bears fleshing out: there are more athletic players out there who have potential to evolve and grow their games through innate athleticism and hard work-- though the development of basketball skills must in fact flatten out considerably the older one gets.

then there are players who have more advanced sets of basketball skills coming in but who have less talent athletically. which players end up being better is an open question but the question itself presents a viable distinction or criterion upon which to take the measure of the player.

there is a calculus here: inferior athletes can only use their skills up to a certain level before reaching their potential whereas superior athletes can continue to hone skills but the honing or engendering of those skills becomes exponentially more difficult with each passing year. which of the two comes out ahead?

and then of course there is the team and the team's system and the completeness of the team on its journey to viability.

[TKF]

lopez has size and he has a willingness to learn the game. he is a legitimate post player who, if he learns how to pass out of double teams, will be part of a good core. harris is the problem for the nets. why? because in terms of a traditional role and the skills that belong to that role harrris is more wanting as a point guard than lopez as a center. plus no way will lopez rest on non-existent laurels. he will continue to expand his game in spite of, or perhaps because of, his relative lack of athleticism.
this is where the art and skill of passing becomes paramount. basketball being a team game requires that each player be able to pass the ball well and, beyond that, be able to make a playmaking pass.

if we can't agree on this point then there is no point in continuing a dialogue.

so my point here would be that, to the degree that lopez is being doubled because of his ability to score-- as opposed to being doubled because opponents feel they can cause a turnover because lopez is a doofus-- to that same degree he must be able to make the sort of playmaking pass that the better centers have been known for: passes to cutters out of doubles or passes out of doubles that lead to passes to an open man. in both cases a good sense of timing and a good court vision are important.

j4remi made a great point that bears fleshing out: there are more athletic players out there who have potential to evolve and grow their games through innate athleticism and hard work-- though the development of basketball skills must in fact flatten out considerably the older one gets.

then there are players who have more advanced sets of basketball skills coming in but who have less talent athletically. which players end up being better is an open question but the question itself presents a viable distinction or criterion upon which to take the measure of the player.

there is a calculus here: inferior athletes can only use their skills up to a certain level before reaching their potential whereas superior athletes can continue to hone skills but the honing or engendering of those skills becomes exponentially more difficult with each passing year. which of the two comes out ahead?

and then of course there is the team and the team's system and the completeness of the team on its journey to viability.

I can pretty much agree with that. I just think some of us, well myself in particular, just question how much upside he has, and I think that is a legit question at this point. Doesn't mean that lopez won't be a good player. Just maybe not as good as some(like yourself) may think.. and that remains to be seen....

which is why I was skeptical when I hear that lopez growth will automatically make him a much better player than lee.. Again, who knows. Lee has improved his jumper, if it continues to get better, where will that put lee. A guy who is already a 16/12 player.... Again, I don't know how much upside lopez has, I lean toward the lower end with him. Will that be enough to make him clearly better than lee? again. Not so sure.. but as we said.. time will tell..

good discussion...

[kane2021]

I think Brook can improve from 13-8 to 15-10. 53% from the field is a good number. Maybe his ft shooting can get the ppg up into the 16-17 range if he can find a way to sucker contact.

A 15-10 true center is VERY nice in todays game. I feel lopez did much better then anyone expected. Because if anyone expected THAT he would not be a net.

I bashed harris very hard. And stand by it. But lopez is a good prospect on the other hand. I dont think he will become more skilled. I think he will become more comfortable and make better use of his skills.

[TKF]

I think Brook can improve from 13-8 to 15-10. 53% from the field is a good number. Maybe his ft shooting can get the ppg up into the 16-17 range if he can find a way to sucker contact.

A 15-10 true center is VERY nice in todays game. I feel lopez did much better then anyone expected. Because if anyone expected THAT he would not be a net.

I bashed harris very hard. And stand by it. But lopez is a good prospect on the other hand. I dont think he will become more skilled. I think he will become more comfortable and make better use of his skills.

exactly. I see him gaining more experience and becomming more polished. I just don't see this huge jump most are expecting..

[K_ick_God]

I think Brook can improve from 13-8 to 15-10. 53% from the field is a good number. Maybe his ft shooting can get the ppg up into the 16-17 range if he can find a way to sucker contact.

A 15-10 true center is VERY nice in todays game. I feel lopez did much better then anyone expected. Because if anyone expected THAT he would not be a net.

I bashed harris very hard. And stand by it. But lopez is a good prospect on the other hand. I dont think he will become more skilled. I think he will become more comfortable and make better use of his skills.

exactly. I see him gaining more experience and becomming more polished. I just don't see this huge jump most are expecting..

Perfectly describes how I feel about this subject. The guy came into the league with a polished, NBA-ready game. But whether he can growing into becoming a dominant force at center, the kind of player whom you can build a team around -- that depends on a set of natural gifts and skills that I just don't see in Brook Lopez.

Again, I see him as a good center on a great team if you put at least two other primary scoring options around him. He could be a good 3rd. I don't see him reaching the level of a 2nd scorer on a contender. If Brook is your second scorer, you might not be very good and you'll at best be a playoff team that cannot go deep in the playoffs. Brook in the middle with two elite wing scorers around him ... Gallo, Chandler? ... and then you got something.

[RHODEY]

How do you guys think Lopez' current play and ceiling compare to Andrew Bogut?

[TKF]

How do you guys think Lopez' current play and ceiling compare to Andrew Bogut?

tough to call, I think bogut has developed slower than expected. he is a more fluid athlete, just as skilled, a much better passer and a better athlete than lopez. I mean looking at bogut skills and ability, it should be a clear cut decision, but somehow bogut has come along pretty slow. I am not sure whats up wtith him, I know he was injured a lot last year, and his numbers were down, so we will see. Honestly, I think bogut has a higher ceiling, a more fluid player, and probably a better skill set that I see has some room to grow....

[jzmagik]

How do you guys think Lopez' current play and ceiling compare to Andrew Bogut?

tough to call, I think bogut has developed slower than expected. he is a more fluid athlete, just as skilled, a much better passer and a better athlete than lopez. I mean looking at bogut skills and ability, it should be a clear cut decision, but somehow bogut has come along pretty slow. I am not sure whats up wtith him, I know he was injured a lot last year, and his numbers were down, so we will see. Honestly, I think bogut has a higher ceiling, a more fluid player, and probably a better skill set that I see has some room to grow....

Going by the numbers, Brooks has Bogut beat in quite a few categories.
Brook's rookie season PER and career TS% is higher than any of Bogut's seasons.

On defense, Brooks is easily the better shot blocker and defender. Rebounding is a wash.

It's been 4 seasons since Bogut's been in the league, so what you see from Bogut is what you're going to get, nothing more. I don't see how you can say Brook has a low ceiling after just one season in which he put put terrific numbers. He's shown enough in his rookie season that he's going to be a top center in the league for years to come, with still plenty of room to grow.

[RHODEY]

How do you guys think Lopez' current play and ceiling compare to Andrew Bogut?

tough to call, I think bogut has developed slower than expected. he is a more fluid athlete, just as skilled, a much better passer and a better athlete than lopez. I mean looking at bogut skills and ability, it should be a clear cut decision, but somehow bogut has come along pretty slow. I am not sure whats up wtith him, I know he was injured a lot last year, and his numbers were down, so we will see. Honestly, I think bogut has a higher ceiling, a more fluid player, and probably a better skill set that I see has some room to grow....

Going by the numbers, Brooks has Bogut beat in quite a few categories.
Brook's rookie season PER and career TS% is higher than any of Bogut's seasons.

On defense, Brooks is easily the better shot blocker and defender. Rebounding is a wash.

It's been 4 seasons since Bogut's been in the league, so what you see from Bogut is what you're going to get, nothing more. I don't see how you can say Brook has a low ceiling after just one season in which he put put terrific numbers. He's shown enough in his rookie season that he's going to be a top center in the league for years to come, with still plenty of room to grow.

Yes that's why I posed the question. Lopez doesn't play as fluidly yet his production has been noteworthy. I'll be watching both players this season.

[kane2021]

I think the issue with Bogut is desire to maximize on his natural tools. Lopez while he has less to work with looks like the type willing to push it to the max.

[TKF]

How do you guys think Lopez' current play and ceiling compare to Andrew Bogut?

tough to call, I think bogut has developed slower than expected. he is a more fluid athlete, just as skilled, a much better passer and a better athlete than lopez. I mean looking at bogut skills and ability, it should be a clear cut decision, but somehow bogut has come along pretty slow. I am not sure whats up wtith him, I know he was injured a lot last year, and his numbers were down, so we will see. Honestly, I think bogut has a higher ceiling, a more fluid player, and probably a better skill set that I see has some room to grow....

Going by the numbers, Brooks has Bogut beat in quite a few categories.
Brook's rookie season PER and career TS% is higher than any of Bogut's seasons.

On defense, Brooks is easily the better shot blocker and defender. Rebounding is a wash.

It's been 4 seasons since Bogut's been in the league, so what you see from Bogut is what you're going to get, nothing more. I don't see how you can say Brook has a low ceiling after just one season in which he put put terrific numbers. He's shown enough in his rookie season that he's going to be a top center in the league for years to come, with still plenty of room to grow.

But you just can't look at numbers. If we do that, then why isn't channing frye playing like Tim duncan right now.. Frye's first year numbers trumped lee easily. yet lee right now has been the better pro by far.. Sometimes you have to looke beyond numbers and "per" When healthy, bogut's numbers have been good, and this is on a team with a huge ball stopper in michael redd..

Anyway, I like boguts ceiling because he is just a more natural athlete, more fluid, and probably more skilled. to say that what you see, is what you get out of a guy that young is just not true...

I don't see how you can say Brook has a low ceiling after just one season in which he put put terrific numbers

Again, refer to my channing frye example...

[TKF]

I think the issue with Bogut is desire to maximize on his natural tools. Lopez while he has less to work with looks like the type willing to push it to the max.

I think bogut is a hard worker, last year he was injured. The season before that, he had a nice season and looked poised to break out last year.... He would be ideal in dantoni's system. has a decent shot, can defend a little, runs the floor, has a decent post game and is very good passer... very mobile big.. I actually expect him to have a good season..

[kane2021]

I think the issue with Bogut is desire to maximize on his natural tools. Lopez while he has less to work with looks like the type willing to push it to the max.

I think bogut is a hard worker, last year he was injured. The season before that, he had a nice season and looked poised to break out last year.... He would be ideal in dantoni's system. has a decent shot, can defend a little, runs the floor, has a decent post game and is very good passer... very mobile big.. I actually expect him to have a good season..

Thats fair. I have not seen as much of him as I have seen Lopez. He seems different each game I see him. One game I see something special. Few weeks later I say, "what happened to him". I base it off his demeanor. But Lee's demeanor totally changed when coach D got here. Im going to be watching him this season. Because when I saw his name come up I thought about how a guy like coach D could help him.

[TheBluest]

I think the issue with Bogut is desire to maximize on his natural tools. Lopez while he has less to work with looks like the type willing to push it to the max.

I think bogut is a hard worker, last year he was injured. The season before that, he had a nice season and looked poised to break out last year.... He would be ideal in dantoni's system. has a decent shot, can defend a little, runs the floor, has a decent post game and is very good passer... very mobile big.. I actually expect him to have a good season..

Thats fair. I have not seen as much of him as I have seen Lopez. He seems different each game I see him. One game I see something special. Few weeks later I say, "what happened to him". I base it off his demeanor. But Lee's demeanor totally changed when coach D got here. Im going to be watching him this season. Because when I saw his name come up I thought about how a guy like coach D could help him.

Bogut has been a tad bit awful IMO and somewhat injury prone. #1 picks have to pan out and be damn near for sure things. The Bucks I think have missed the playoffs more than they have made since drafting him that should tell you all you need to know about how underwhelming he's been. He's a decent big but that's about it. He is a starter, can have a good to great game out of every 10, and be mediocre the rest of the time.

[K_ick_God]

How do you guys think Lopez' current play and ceiling compare to Andrew Bogut?

I think Lopez's ceiling was presumed to be lower than Bogut's because Lopez's tools and natural abilities are more limited. But I think he will be a better NBA player and I think his ceiling is somewhat higher too. Bogut is a good player, does several things well, but he does not do any one thing exceedingly well. I think Brook should be more of an impact scorer/defender down the line because he is a winner.

Brook has "pushed" his ceiling a little higher by adapting so quickly to the NBA game and being a committed player -- the problem is, you can only push the ceiling so much without some special skills. How much better Brook is than Bogut will depend on whether he can do one or two things especially well. Brook should be able to do everything well but he could be similar to Bogut in that he doesn't distinguish himself enough on the court at any one or two things to be a standout (i.e., a star).

[j4remi]

Bogut has been a tad bit awful IMO and somewhat injury prone. #1 picks have to pan out and be damn near for sure things. The Bucks I think have missed the playoffs more than they have made since drafting him that should tell you all you need to know about how underwhelming he's been. He's a decent big but that's about it. He is a starter, can have a good to great game out of every 10, and be mediocre the rest of the time.

I agree 100% except I think mediocre is a little harsh. He'll always be a middling C that won't kill you but won't be a game changer, that's what I see. He's actually a pretty good true C...the problem is he was the first pick of the draft. If you take away his draft position he's a solid NBA player and a piece that could help most teams, but not by all that much.