Derrick Rose to NY

[cmd1985]

Asking for Rose to be average is a high task, IMO. Asking him to be healthy in addition is unlikely IMO.

When the stat geeks say rose over Calderon isn't a HUGE upgrade..the stat geeks need to be shunned.

Sorry. Take your saber metrics over there. Way far over there.

Nope, I'll keep them here thank you very much.

I don't only use stats, by the way - I watch games as well and watched 4 games from Rose this past year the night of the trade. Funny how I can get a PM from a Bulls fan saying that I'm right and there are still Knicks fans who claim that the stats lie. (Guess what? In this case, they are not- Rose was BAD last year.)

Also, Rose is an upgrade because of his attacking ability. In terms of everything else, he isn't.

Rose stats were bad last year but definitely skewed downwards trying to play through facial fracture he suffered the first day of training camp last year.

Also last year Jimmy took on a more ball dominant role he upped his ball handling and became more of lead guard, in the Harden mold which leaves role as a spot up shooter one that doesn't fit him well to say the least.

I think this team is a great fit for Derrick and he'll have a really strong year, he'll actually be the point on offense, I'm assuming that Phil has a plan in place to get a legit 3&D guy to share the wing with Melo, KP looks like a future star, and Melo as great as he is an on ball scorer is really deadly off the ball. Basketball is a game largely about fit, I think that with this team Rose will have spacing he's never had in Chicago, not only will his efficiency at the rim improve, his efficiency in genreal improve becaue that help defender that could sag off in Chicago will be a half a second later now and foul Rose. I'd be willing to wager any amount of money Rose's free throw attempts at least doubles from the 2.7 last season.

I'd take a lot of what Bulls fans say with a grain of salt there's a lot of hurt feelings from Rose not coming back quickly enough for them from the ACL, to some comments that he made that have been blown up and run with when the guy is just extremely inarticulate.

[NYKnicksTAPE]

I think that Rose's advanced stats were dragged down by his horrible start to the season, he was pretty much on Kobe status to start the year...he was really bad for a guy who dominated the ball as much as he did. What were his advanced numbers looking like after the all star break?

[Capn'O]

Basically what Ib said. Players coming back from major injuries usually have terrible advanced stats until their physical abilities catch back up with what they think they can do/what their role requires them to do. Rose has had a few major setbacks now.

If he hurts himself early, we're screwed. If he stays healthy, chances are he improves on his poor impact last year just by getting reps and still being young. Also, he's got more and better fitting options here. Get that 3/D guy on the wing and it's a good fit.

[GONYK]

Nope, I'll keep them here thank you very much.

I don't only use stats, by the way - I watch games as well and watched 4 games from Rose this past year the night of the trade. Funny how I can get a PM from a Bulls fan saying that I'm right and there are still Knicks fans who claim that the stats lie. (Guess what? In this case, they are not- Rose was BAD last year.)

Also, Rose is an upgrade because of his attacking ability. In terms of everything else, he isn't.

The stats don't even say that Rose isn't an upgrade over Calderon. The stats say they were both awful, just to varying degrees of awfulness vs. usage.

You've got a couple of problems though.. the stats don't take into account the offense the team ran (if you're judging offensive stats) and how well said players fit into it.

And you're comparing stats from a player on the bottom side of his career and a player who even though has had some major injury concerns is still right smack dab in the middle of his prime. So one can safely assume that Rose has the very real chance to be better statistically next year and Jose has the very real chance to be worse.

I'm not disagreeing. The stats are snapshots of the players in their respective careers.

I think it is safe to say that Rose is more physically talented than Jose Calderon. What the stats tell is that if Rose is used in a similar fashion on offense as he was in Chicago the last few years, he could be as bad (or worse in some cases) as Calderon was in a smaller usage role.

Can Rose improve? Sure. He definitely has a higher likelihood of improving than Jose. I question how high the likelihood is overall though given his age and injury history.

I think Rose will be statistically better next season, but I think that will correlate with a reduced role not necessarily wildly improved play.

[Knicksfan1992]

I think that Rose's advanced stats were dragged down by his horrible start to the season, he was pretty much on Kobe status to start the year...he was really bad for a guy who dominated the ball as much as he did. What were his advanced numbers looking like after the all star break?

His true shooting percentage got up to league average levels at 52% instead of being down towards the bottom at 46% which he was at up until the all star break. His offensive rating went up 8 points to at least a respectable 101 from 93 pre-all star break. However his defense rating skyrocketed to 114 but, that could be attributed to the bulls pretty much imploding also. There's encouraging signs that he's turning the corner for sure at least.

[moocow007]

Basically what Ib said. Players coming back from major injuries usually have terrible advanced stats until their physical abilities catch back up with what they think they can do/what their role requires them to do. Rose has had a few major setbacks now.

If he hurts himself early, we're screwed. If he stays healthy, chances are he improves on his poor impact last year just by getting reps and still being young. Also, he's got more and better fitting options here. Get that 3/D guy on the wing and it's a good fit.

If he gets hurt we're likely looking at a shot to get the next Porzingis or at the very lease another lottery pick (that we actually will own this time) in a deeper draft. So, it's not really getting screwed per se.

[Capn'O]

Basically what Ib said. Players coming back from major injuries usually have terrible advanced stats until their physical abilities catch back up with what they think they can do/what their role requires them to do. Rose has had a few major setbacks now.

If he hurts himself early, we're screwed. If he stays healthy, chances are he improves on his poor impact last year just by getting reps and still being young. Also, he's got more and better fitting options here. Get that 3/D guy on the wing and it's a good fit.

If he gets hurt we're likely looking at a shot to get the next Porzingis or at the very lease another lottery pick (that we actually will own this time) in a deeper draft. So, it's not really getting screwed per se.

This is true. Maybe lose the battle (trade) but be better positioned in the war.

The safety net of having our future firsts is not something I'm used to even thinking about.

[moocow007]

Basically what Ib said. Players coming back from major injuries usually have terrible advanced stats until their physical abilities catch back up with what they think they can do/what their role requires them to do. Rose has had a few major setbacks now.

If he hurts himself early, we're screwed. If he stays healthy, chances are he improves on his poor impact last year just by getting reps and still being young. Also, he's got more and better fitting options here. Get that 3/D guy on the wing and it's a good fit.

If he gets hurt we're likely looking at a shot to get the next Porzingis or at the very lease another lottery pick (that we actually will own this time) in a deeper draft. So, it's not really getting screwed per se.

This is true. Maybe lose the battle (trade) but be better positioned in the war.

The safety net of having our future firsts is not something I'm used to even thinking about.

I pretty much see this trade as getting a higher ceiling or a lower floor as far as how well we do next season compared to if we had kept Lopez. It's a good thing.

[Deeeez Knicks]

A lot of people reference the ESPN RPM stats. That stat is just highly flawed and you can throw it out the window once a player changes teams

Example #1: Amare is a top 30 defender.

[moocow007]

A lot of people reference the ESPN RPM stats. That stat is just highly flawed and you can throw it out the window once a player changes teams

Example #1: Amare is a top 30 defender.

Yeah it's nuts.

[Capn'O]

A lot of people reference the ESPN RPM stats. That stat is just highly flawed and you can throw it out the window once a player changes teams

Example #1: Amare is a top 30 defender.

One of the Rose highlight videos had a bunch of great slo-mo shots of Amar'e freezing and throwing his hands in the air as Rose blew by him. Good times.

[thebuzzardman]

So glad this board already is highly divided over Rose. Wouldn't have it any other way.

[Intza]

I think that Rose's advanced stats were dragged down by his horrible start to the season, he was pretty much on Kobe status to start the year...he was really bad for a guy who dominated the ball as much as he did. What were his advanced numbers looking like after the all star break?

He was better as the year went on, but his 51% from 0 to 3 feet is not gonna cut it. Not for a below average jump shooter. He is going to help a lot, because we don't have anyone else who can get to the rim, but i don't really expect him to be efficient.

[StephNYKurry]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/AlexKennedyNBA/status/747835005976588289[/tweet]

Kyle there is a good chance you are traded bro

Only if we're making a play at KD AND Pau or Noah. Then you have to shed the contract, but as of right now, he's an extremely young player on an affordable deal.

KOQ wasn't the best last year, but even that can be attributed to us not having the penetration and playmaking necessary to fully unlock his game.

KOQ is probably one of the people who is happiest about Rose coming


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[NBA Fan 1234]

Basically what Ib said. Players coming back from major injuries usually have terrible advanced stats until their physical abilities catch back up with what they think they can do/what their role requires them to do. Rose has had a few major setbacks now.

If he hurts himself early, we're screwed. If he stays healthy, chances are he improves on his poor impact last year just by getting reps and still being young. Also, he's got more and better fitting options here. Get that 3/D guy on the wing and it's a good fit.

Id agree with the bold if he hadn't been slightly above average (at best) before the the injuries. Only thing we can hope is that taking a lesser role on offense (if he's willing to do it) will help improve his overall efficiency, even if it won't improve his terrible shot selection.

[Iron Mantis]

When the stat geeks say rose over Calderon isn't a HUGE upgrade..the stat geeks need to be shunned.

Sorry. Take your saber metrics over there. Way far over there.

This is a great point. These stats are garbage. Talent and system is what matters.

Agreed. Using stats to say Jose and Rose are anywhere near equals is definitely exile-worthy.

The game of basketball is organic and stats, while useful for information, cannot account for: system, energy, chemistry, morale, fit, etc.

[StephNYKurry]

I think that Rose's advanced stats were dragged down by his horrible start to the season, he was pretty much on Kobe status to start the year...he was really bad for a guy who dominated the ball as much as he did. What were his advanced numbers looking like after the all star break?

He was better as the year went on, but his 51% from 0 to 3 feet is not gonna cut it. Not for a below average jump shooter. He is going to help a lot, because we don't have anyone else who can get to the rim, but i don't really expect him to be efficient.

Me and Knickstape had this discussion the other day.

Depends on how you look at it.

I think his finishing could be blamed on crowded lanes and no calls.

There are those who believe him to functionally be a poor finisher.

We'll see...


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[Capn'O]

Basically what Ib said. Players coming back from major injuries usually have terrible advanced stats until their physical abilities catch back up with what they think they can do/what their role requires them to do. Rose has had a few major setbacks now.

If he hurts himself early, we're screwed. If he stays healthy, chances are he improves on his poor impact last year just by getting reps and still being young. Also, he's got more and better fitting options here. Get that 3/D guy on the wing and it's a good fit.

Id agree with the bold if he hadn't been slightly above average (at best) before the the injuries. Only thing we can hope is that taking a lesser role on offense (if he's willing to do it) will help improve his overall efficiency, even if it won't improve his terrible shot selection.

Where is that coming from? His impact stats (Win Shares, VORP, BPM) and total performance stats (PER, TS%) were all well above average through 2012. I can't find RPM from 2011-12 but can't imagine it'd be any different.

[cmd1985]

I think that Rose's advanced stats were dragged down by his horrible start to the season, he was pretty much on Kobe status to start the year...he was really bad for a guy who dominated the ball as much as he did. What were his advanced numbers looking like after the all star break?

He was better as the year went on, but his 51% from 0 to 3 feet is not gonna cut it. Not for a below average jump shooter. He is going to help a lot, because we don't have anyone else who can get to the rim, but i don't really expect him to be efficient.

Me and Knickstape had this discussion the other day.

Depends on how you look at it.

I think his finishing could be blamed on crowded lanes and no calls.

There are those who believe him to functionally be a poor finisher.

We'll see...


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If you see my post above I touched on that. He's a great finisher with either hand it's quite amazing the looks he can get off in traffic. His biggest issue last year outisde the orbital fracture was not getting to the line. This year with additional spacing I think you can turn 2 of those misses into 4 FTA's and you're looking at really efficient Rose. Just my 2 cents, I think this has the potential to be the best fitting team he's ever been a part of which is huge!

[Context]

what i love about this trade is its win win no matter what happens... as far as Rose positive grow from him is gravy as far as I'm concerned...I love the fact that he wants to be here and he's going to have a chip on his shoulder... I think at worst he's going to have a better season than last years 2nd half...