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Lesson as always:
-A lot of players can be good in the right role on the right team
-Don't overpay those players and put them in the wrong role on the wrong team

wrong role, wrong contract.

Plus - one thing to remember with Tim is that Carlisle (and Bud to an extent) turned him into a unitasker of sorts. All those iso shots are gone and he's pretty much shooting 3s and layups.... and WAY more 3s than 2s. That's the complete opposite of his time in NY with any of the coaches we had

Gravy wrote:Timmy was always a decent role player with some faults. He got caught up in the tanking obsession where anyone that can hit a shot is public enemy #1.

Also, Knicks fans always need someone to irrationally hate whether its blaming every loss on Payton's 4 minutes per half or trashing Randle on each play last year.

Too bad he didn’t hit shots. We might have actually been playing meaningful games instead of having to dump him with KP.

I hate players with Kobe mentality without the Kobe skill or work ethic to back it up. All he had to do to succeed was acknowledge he was a damn role player.

KnicksGadfly wrote:

Gravy wrote:Timmy was always a decent role player with some faults. He got caught up in the tanking obsession where anyone that can hit a shot is public enemy #1.

Also, Knicks fans always need someone to irrationally hate whether its blaming every loss on Payton's 4 minutes per half or trashing Randle on each play last year.

Too bad he didn’t hit shots. We might have actually been playing meaningful games instead of having to dump him with KP.

I hate players with Kobe mentality without the Kobe skill or work ethic to back it up. All he had to do to succeed was acknowledge he was a damn role player.

He was the best player on the team next to KP that year and his job was to shoot. Who has ever said he was Kobe, what does success mean take them to the playoffs by himself?

Chanel Bomber wrote:

Gravy wrote:Timmy was always a decent role player with some faults. He got caught up in the tanking obsession where anyone that can hit a shot is public enemy #1.

Also, Knicks fans always need someone to irrationally hate whether its blaming every loss on Payton's 4 minutes per half or trashing Randle on each play last year.

Payton's 8 minutes might have been the difference in a 2-point game.

Randle admitted himself he let the team down last year. He deserved the criticism from the fans, and he knows it.

I agree that Timmy was unfortunately the easy scapegoat. He was thrust in a role he couldn't fill - that's on Mills moreso than Timmy. Not that he was perfect and exempt from criticism.

What about Randle's 36 minutes where he went 6-23; completely meaningless, or RJ's 32 minutes where he went 6-15; also meaningless. The only important minutes of the game were Payton's 8 minutes at the beginning of the half because the whole game revolves around everything he does. Whatever he and only he does is the sole difference between winning and losing.

Yeah not obsessed or irrational at all..

iLLmatic860 wrote:He always was good. He just had to big of a role in NY

Exactly. He's much better when he's not a focal point of the offense. On the Knicks, he took too many shots and was streaky. On the Mavs, he fits in well because he doesn't have to hoist up shots like it's going out of style. He's much more efficient now. Having a real point guard is a big part of that.

Rose got Burks for $6mil who is arguably a better player than THJ at $19mil and doesn't even have Luka to ride the coattails of....

Phish Tank wrote:wrong role, wrong contract.

Plus - one thing to remember with Tim is that Carlisle (and Bud to an extent) turned him into a unitasker of sorts. All those iso shots are gone and he's pretty much shooting 3s and layups.... and WAY more 3s than 2s. That's the complete opposite of his time in NY with any of the coaches we had

Ok, so when he’s actually “coached”, he’s a good player. We have a good coach now.

stuporman wrote:Rose got Burks for $6mil who is arguably a better player than THJ at $19mil and doesn't even have Luka to ride the coattails of....

I prefer Burks coming off the bench I think he’s well-suited for that role. I don’t know that I want him guarding the opposing team’s starting SG every night.

HarthorneWingo wrote:

stuporman wrote:Rose got Burks for $6mil who is arguably a better player than THJ at $19mil and doesn't even have Luka to ride the coattails of....

I prefer Burks coming off the bench I think he’s well-suited for that role. I don’t know that I want him guarding the opposing team’s starting SG every night.

Do you really want THJ guarding the opposing team's starting SG every night either?

thebuzzardman wrote:Looking forward to the hot takes if KP has a good game though.

He did have one.

There will never be a thread dedicated to him regretting the trade. It will just be silence if he does well, pettiness if he does bad.

stuporman wrote:

HarthorneWingo wrote:

stuporman wrote:Rose got Burks for $6mil who is arguably a better player than THJ at $19mil and doesn't even have Luka to ride the coattails of....

I prefer Burks coming off the bench I think he’s well-suited for that role. I don’t know that I want him guarding the opposing team’s starting SG every night.

Do you really want THJ guarding the opposing team's starting SG every night either?

Thibs will turn him into a defensive player. Hardaway does draw a lot of charges.

Gravy wrote:

Chanel Bomber wrote:

Gravy wrote:Timmy was always a decent role player with some faults. He got caught up in the tanking obsession where anyone that can hit a shot is public enemy #1.

Also, Knicks fans always need someone to irrationally hate whether its blaming every loss on Payton's 4 minutes per half or trashing Randle on each play last year.

Payton's 8 minutes might have been the difference in a 2-point game.

Randle admitted himself he let the team down last year. He deserved the criticism from the fans, and he knows it.

I agree that Timmy was unfortunately the easy scapegoat. He was thrust in a role he couldn't fill - that's on Mills moreso than Timmy. Not that he was perfect and exempt from criticism.

What about Randle's 36 minutes where he went 6-23; completely meaningless, or RJ's 32 minutes where he went 6-15; also meaningless. The only important minutes of the game were Payton's 8 minutes at the beginning of the half because the whole game revolves around everything he does. Whatever he and only he does is the sole difference between winning and losing.

Yeah not obsessed or irrational at all..

Randle has been good all season. You don't have much control over him having an off-night or being tight as a violin. Unless you bench him, which is ridiculous.

Payton has been garbage all year. You have control over that by benching him.

It's not irrational at all. On the contrary, it's based on a full season of eye test and clear-cut statistical evidence.

Many factors explain the game 1 loss. Including Randle struggling all game long, and Payton sucking on both ends in his limited time. Now tell me, which situation can you remedy with a simple tweak to the rotation? You can't bench Randle. You can (and must) bench Payton.

HarthorneWingo wrote:

stuporman wrote:

HarthorneWingo wrote:
I prefer Burks coming off the bench I think he’s well-suited for that role. I don’t know that I want him guarding the opposing team’s starting SG every night.

Do you really want THJ guarding the opposing team's starting SG every night either?

Thibs will turn him into a defensive player.

Burks didn't really play that well om defense either before he came to the Knicks and he's been inconsistently average for the Knicks on that end of the court. So the reality of the matter is some players just don't have the aptitude or ability to be good defenders no matter how much effort they give or are coached up.

Some players just have the instincts, awareness and ability to play defense and coaching takes them to another level because they have those to work with. Other players who don't have them often the most one can hope for is they get hidden by good team defense and don't get exposed enough to hurt the team.

That being said all things considered a poor defender isn't someone I want to rely on in a starter role and if a guy is going to be a secondary offensive contributor better suited for a back up or rotational role then I want to be paying them $6mil not $19 but I suspect you'd agree with that as well.

dakomish23 wrote:

thebuzzardman wrote:Looking forward to the hot takes if KP has a good game though.

He did have one.

There will never be a thread dedicated to him regretting the trade. It will just be silence if he does well, pettiness if he does bad.

There shouldn't be any thread dedicated to regretting the trade because the trade turned out to be the correct move.

stuporman wrote:

HarthorneWingo wrote:

stuporman wrote:
Do you really want THJ guarding the opposing team's starting SG every night either?

Thibs will turn him into a defensive player.

Burks didn't really play that well om defense either before he came to the Knicks and he's been inconsistently average for the Knicks on that end of the court. So the reality of the matter is some players just don't have the aptitude or ability to be good defenders no matter how much effort they give or are coached up.

Some players just have the instincts, awareness and ability to play defense and coaching takes them to another level because they have those to work with. Other players who don't have them often the most one can hope for is they get hidden by good team defense and don't get exposed enough to hurt the team.

That being said all things considered a poor defender isn't someone I want to rely on in a starter role and if a guy is going to be a secondary offensive contributor better suited for a back up or rotational role then I want to be paying them $6mil not $19 but I suspect you'd agree with that as well.

I really don't disagree with you. I was stoking the flames a bit. Yeah, I mean, I really like both Burks and Bullock and would like to bring them back because of continuity and fit. Hardaway is a much more explosive offensive player but he comes with his own issues and tbh a third go-round would bring too much baggage.

Acquiring THJr the second time was a monumental folly by an incompetent FO. He was the wrong guy put in the wrong role to fill the wrong need. None of this means he was a bad player. His salary was a weight around the neck of our team.

Trading him away with KP was the right thing for that time. Now he could be a Burks type player, but we have Burks for far less $$.

THJ does this every contract year. He balls the f*ck out over his head and then enviably takes a step back. Dallas had him coming off the bench earlier in the year cause he was playing so bad.

Hardaway is a fine role player, but he’s going to get paid 20+ million and he is not consistent enough to Warner that kind of contract.

If Dallas signs him they are going to regret it.

Chanel Bomber wrote:

Gravy wrote:

Chanel Bomber wrote:Payton's 8 minutes might have been the difference in a 2-point game.

Randle admitted himself he let the team down last year. He deserved the criticism from the fans, and he knows it.

I agree that Timmy was unfortunately the easy scapegoat. He was thrust in a role he couldn't fill - that's on Mills moreso than Timmy. Not that he was perfect and exempt from criticism.

What about Randle's 36 minutes where he went 6-23; completely meaningless, or RJ's 32 minutes where he went 6-15; also meaningless. The only important minutes of the game were Payton's 8 minutes at the beginning of the half because the whole game revolves around everything he does. Whatever he and only he does is the sole difference between winning and losing.

Yeah not obsessed or irrational at all..

Randle has been good all season. You don't have much control over him having an off-night or being tight as a violin. Unless you bench him, which is ridiculous.

Payton has been garbage all year. You have control over that by benching him.

It's not irrational at all. On the contrary, it's based on a full season of eye test and clear-cut statistical evidence.

Many factors explain the game 1 loss. Including Randle struggling all game long, and Payton sucking on both ends in his limited time. Now tell me, which situation can you remedy with a simple tweak to the rotation? You can't bench Randle. You can (and must) bench Payton.

I'd say benching Payton or not doesn't matter if Randle goes 6-23 again. If Payton's 8 minutes are more important than any other player on the team then Payton should get the super max for being that crucial to every win or loss.

Gravy wrote:

Chanel Bomber wrote:

Gravy wrote:Timmy was always a decent role player with some faults. He got caught up in the tanking obsession where anyone that can hit a shot is public enemy #1.

Also, Knicks fans always need someone to irrationally hate whether its blaming every loss on Payton's 4 minutes per half or trashing Randle on each play last year.

Payton's 8 minutes might have been the difference in a 2-point game.

Randle admitted himself he let the team down last year. He deserved the criticism from the fans, and he knows it.

I agree that Timmy was unfortunately the easy scapegoat. He was thrust in a role he couldn't fill - that's on Mills moreso than Timmy. Not that he was perfect and exempt from criticism.

What about Randle's 36 minutes where he went 6-23; completely meaningless, or RJ's 32 minutes where he went 6-15; also meaningless. The only important minutes of the game were Payton's 8 minutes at the beginning of the half because the whole game revolves around everything he does. Whatever he and only he does is the sole difference between winning and losing.

Yeah not obsessed or irrational at all..

They went for a combined 12 - 38 and we lost by 2...... They got to step it up