What if we never drafted Frank and Kevin Knox?

[NewKnicks]

If we didn't draft Frank, we would've taken DSJ or Malik Monk

Mitchell was high on our radar, but Phil Jackson ultimately decided Frank was a better fit for the triangle

This.

[NewKnicks]

Donavon Mitchell
Rj Barrett
Michae Porter Jr
Juluis Randle
Mitchell Robinson

6th Man
Tyrese Hali

Obviously our roster will prob look different but I can still dream lol

It's actually funny that if you talk about those 2 guys it's almost like repeating Scott Layden and Isiah Thomas all over again. Frank would have been the perfect Scott Layden pick (all substance no talent) and Knox the perfect Isiah Thomas pick (all talent no substance).

But I digress. As far as the Knicks picking Donovan Mitchell?

It's funny that vast majority of this board wanted Frank cause of his supposed higher potential as a true point guard. Not being a true point guard was something that a lot of folks had against Mitchell. And to be honest, as a big Louisville fan Mitchell's ability to run an NBA offense was definitely a concern for me as well. So would they have picked him instead? Yeah I don't know about that. The reality is that Mitchell turned out to be one of those rare players who does better in the NBA than he did in college. Hard to predict.

In all likelihood and based on reports the Knicks front office other than Phil Jackson was leaning towards Dennis Smith Jr so I seriously doubt they would have drafted Mitchell (or Bam or any of the other few hindsight guys). Malik Monk was the only other name that really got brought up in the rumor mill. And none of those 3 likely guys have done anything.

Now as far as Knox and 2018?

Sure SGA should have been the guy in hindsight but honestly his name wasn't really mentioned much at all in Knick rumor circles. The Knicks had just drafted their "PG of the future" (lol...see previous section) and the notion was that they were looking at Mikal Bridges as the most likely target up until the 11th hour when they went with Knox on account of his shooting potential and upside...and...well...the rumored Kentucky connection that had been attached to the Knicks well before the latest front office took control.

If it wasn't Knox it likely would have been Mikal Bridges. Better than Knox? For sure. But a foundation player? Not really.

What the above shows isn't so much that the Knicks can't draft, it's that even a lottery pick is a highly risky asset. The Knicks weren't the only team that passed on Mitchell. You can argue that 11 or 12 other teams also made that same mistake. SGA in 2018? 7 or 8 teams made the same mistake including at least 5 teams that picked before the Knicks did.

That's why if you get a chance at a sure thing (even if it costs more $ or assets to get) it may actually still make a lot more sense than rolling the lottery pick dice.

Actually it does show the Knicks can't draft. How could it show anything different? They drafted two bums over future all-stars in the same range. I don't understand how anyone could see this a different way. Obviously it shows the Knicks blew two lottery picks.

[DOT]

I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly, but are you saying that we should not blame the Knicks front office for drafting Frank and Knox? If so, why not? Who else is to blame? Don't you expect more from your team's front office? They could have EASILY drafted any of those players on the list, and they should have. Hindsight is irrelevant. That's why you have scouting departments in the first place. To draft the right players that are available. But we're the Knicks, so we draft Knox and Frank instead.

If I read your post wrong, then I apologize.

I never said they couldn't have drafted them, or that with hindsight they shouldn't have

What I'm saying is, there are two different questions being asked

"What if we didn't draft Frank and Knox" is different from "What if instead of Frank and Knox we took Mitchell and MPJ"

In response to the first question, if we don't draft Frank, I think it's still pretty likely we don't draft Mitchell. They could have and should have, but that's irrelevant to the question of would they have, without the knowledge we have now

So, you are reading my post wrong, because I didn't say we shouldn't blame the FO for drafting Frank and Knox, I said I don't blame them entirely for not taking guys that went 5 picks later. It's different to say we should have taken one of the Bridges or SGA with the Knox pick especially, because Knox was seen as a reach even at the time, and they would have been pretty logical picks at the time. Not as much as you can blame Detroit for taking Kennard over Mitchell, or the Pacers taking TJ Leaf over John Collins, or Jerome Robinson over MPJ cause those were literally the next picks

Taken to its logical extreme, your viewpoint would then necessitate blaming FOs who picked in the top 5 in 2014 for letting Jokic slide to 41st, or Cleveland in 2013 for taking Bennett over Giannis. It's just not logical to do so, so there has to be a cutoff where missing on a player drafted x picks later is understandable. I put it at about 5, clearly you think there is no limit, that no matter where a player is taken, every team that took someone worse in front of them is run by idiots.

[NewKnicks]

I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly, but are you saying that we should not blame the Knicks front office for drafting Frank and Knox? If so, why not? Who else is to blame? Don't you expect more from your team's front office? They could have EASILY drafted any of those players on the list, and they should have. Hindsight is irrelevant. That's why you have scouting departments in the first place. To draft the right players that are available. But we're the Knicks, so we draft Knox and Frank instead.

If I read your post wrong, then I apologize.

I never said they couldn't have drafted them, or that with hindsight they shouldn't have

What I'm saying is, there are two different questions being asked

"What if we didn't draft Frank and Knox" is different from "What if instead of Frank and Knox we took Mitchell and MPJ"

In response to the first question, if we don't draft Frank, I think it's still pretty likely we don't draft Mitchell. They could have and should have, but that's irrelevant to the question of would they have, without the knowledge we have now

So, you are reading my post wrong, because I didn't say we shouldn't blame the FO for drafting Frank and Knox, I said I don't blame them entirely for not taking guys that went 5 picks later. It's different to say we should have taken one of the Bridges or SGA with the Knox pick especially, because Knox was seen as a reach even at the time, and they would have been pretty logical picks at the time. Not as much as you can blame Detroit for taking Kennard over Mitchell, or the Pacers taking TJ Leaf over John Collins, or Jerome Robinson over MPJ cause those were literally the next picks

Taken to its logical extreme, your viewpoint would then necessitate blaming FOs who picked in the top 5 in 2014 for letting Jokic slide to 41st, or Cleveland in 2013 for taking Bennett over Giannis. It's just not logical to do so, so there has to be a cutoff where missing on a player drafted x picks later is understandable. I put it at about 5, clearly you think there is no limit, that no matter where a player is taken, every team that took someone worse in front of them is run by idiots.

When it's with within 5 draft slots compared to where you draft, for sure front offices should be blamed. Don't bring up this second round crap and try to say its the same comparison. That's a joke (pun intended) of a comparison and you know it.

In the end, you're obviously making excuses for the front office. They could and SHOULD have drafted one (of several) better players who were drafted 5 or less slots after they picked. That's what good front offices do. I blame the FO 110% for being terrible about not being able to evaluate talent. I see that you don't, which is fine. Nice try comparing someone taken at 41 compared to top 5.

My goodness.. the people on here making excuses for the front office. I just don't get it. They completely sh*t the bed on both picks, to where much better players were taken just a few slots after them. I have higher expectations for front offices that are choosing players for the team I love. Instead we now have two worthless bums on the roster that were lottery picks.

[Zerostatic]

If Knick fans were making the picks it would have been Dennis Smith Jr. instead of Frank and Michael Porter Jr. instead of Knox. MPJ alone would've made the fan picks better than the actual team.

[DOT]

They completely sh*t the bed on both picks, to where much better players were taken just a few slots after them.

Literally what I said, except I put the cutoff around 5 picks. Again, not sure what's so hard to understand here

And again you agree with me that there is a cutoff to where you can't blame teams for missing on players. My cutoff is just different than yours, apparently

Don't get why you're so combative about this. You said you'd apologize if you read my post wrong, which you did, and you're not apologizing, just doubling down.

[FreeSpiritNY]

What the Knicks have to start doing is say we are going to pick this person then do the opposite and pick someone who they totally don’t like. Because then we would be drafting all stars. Like every single scout should be fired

[NewKnicks]

They completely sh*t the bed on both picks, to where much better players were taken just a few slots after them.

Literally what I said, except I put the cutoff around 5 picks. Again, not sure what's so hard to understand here

And again you agree with me that there is a cutoff to where you can't blame teams for missing on players. My cutoff is just different than yours, apparently

Don't get why you're so combative about this. You said you'd apologize if you read my post wrong, which you did, and you're not apologizing, just doubling down.

I was fine until you starting comparing a 5 slot difference to a top 5 to a 41 slot. You know that's completely exaggerating. You're a smart man, you know that's just silly to start throwing that out as a comparison.

Anyway, you're right in that I overreacted. I did. I just get frustrated with so many people trying to find any excuse at all as to why the Knicks draft so poorly. I seriously don't get it. This isn't against you, just saying in general.. I see a lot of posters trying to defend them. I'm sure you see it too. What's wrong with just being real, and saying our front office completely blew their picks, and could have easily drafted some great players? So, it's not really an attack against you. I want more from our front office. That's all it is. Plus, reading my own thread depressed me today, realizing the situation we're in right now. We don't really have any talent, and we don't have a way to get a lot of talent either at the moment. The thought of bringing everyone back and adding a few more mid level players doesn't get me excited. Just a bad day, so I'll give you that apology again. I def. came on too strong to begin with. You just happened to be the poster that I felt was backing up the FO again, so I reacted.

[knicks94]

What if we had drafted Ron Artest instead of Federic Wies?
What if we had drafted Amar'e Stoudemire instead of Nene?
What if we drafted Steph Curry instead of Jordan Hill?
What if the South won the Civil War instead of the North?
What if JFK had survived his assassination attempt instead of dying?
What if I was born into the royal family instead of growing up in the hood?

[ellobo]

What if we had drafted Ron Artest instead of Federic Wies?
What if we had drafted Amar'e Stoudemire instead of Nene?
What if we drafted Steph Curry instead of Jordan Hill?
What if the South won the Civil War instead of the North?
What if JFK had survived his assassination attempt instead of dying?
What if I was born into the royal family instead of growing up in the hood?

I usually find "what if" threads pointless, but that's not exactly what this is, despite the title.

Partly it's lamenting past mistakes, partly it's gloating about how individual posters would have made better picks, and partly it's fatalistic speculation about how we would still have screwed it up.

BTW, we couldn't have drafted Steph instead of Jordan Hill because he was already gone, otherwise by all accounts we WOULD have taken him (but there were still lots of better players on the board, like Jrue Holiday and DeMar DeRozan).

[moocow007]

Donavon Mitchell
Rj Barrett
Michae Porter Jr
Juluis Randle
Mitchell Robinson

6th Man
Tyrese Hali

Obviously our roster will prob look different but I can still dream lol

It's actually funny that if you talk about those 2 guys it's almost like repeating Scott Layden and Isiah Thomas all over again. Frank would have been the perfect Scott Layden pick (all substance no talent) and Knox the perfect Isiah Thomas pick (all talent no substance).

But I digress. As far as the Knicks picking Donovan Mitchell?

It's funny that vast majority of this board wanted Frank cause of his supposed higher potential as a true point guard. Not being a true point guard was something that a lot of folks had against Mitchell. And to be honest, as a big Louisville fan Mitchell's ability to run an NBA offense was definitely a concern for me as well. So would they have picked him instead? Yeah I don't know about that. The reality is that Mitchell turned out to be one of those rare players who does better in the NBA than he did in college. Hard to predict.

In all likelihood and based on reports the Knicks front office other than Phil Jackson was leaning towards Dennis Smith Jr so I seriously doubt they would have drafted Mitchell (or Bam or any of the other few hindsight guys). Malik Monk was the only other name that really got brought up in the rumor mill. And none of those 3 likely guys have done anything.

Now as far as Knox and 2018?

Sure SGA should have been the guy in hindsight but honestly his name wasn't really mentioned much at all in Knick rumor circles. The Knicks had just drafted their "PG of the future" (lol...see previous section) and the notion was that they were looking at Mikal Bridges as the most likely target up until the 11th hour when they went with Knox on account of his shooting potential and upside...and...well...the rumored Kentucky connection that had been attached to the Knicks well before the latest front office took control.

If it wasn't Knox it likely would have been Mikal Bridges. Better than Knox? For sure. But a foundation player? Not really.

What the above shows isn't so much that the Knicks can't draft, it's that even a lottery pick is a highly risky asset. The Knicks weren't the only team that passed on Mitchell. You can argue that 11 or 12 other teams also made that same mistake. SGA in 2018? 7 or 8 teams made the same mistake including at least 5 teams that picked before the Knicks did.

That's why if you get a chance at a sure thing (even if it costs more $ or assets to get) it may actually still make a lot more sense than rolling the lottery pick dice.

Actually it does show the Knicks can't draft. How could it show anything different? They drafted two bums over future all-stars in the same range. I don't understand how anyone could see this a different way. Obviously it shows the Knicks blew two lottery picks.

I'm not disagreeing. Just saying that the Knicks weren't the only team that missed. Drafting is not as easy as some fans think. Also you can just flip back to the draft threads and you'll realize most fans aren't any better at predicting the studs from the duds than the GMs they ridicule. A vast majority of fans on this board wanted Frank and the rational that many gave was comical. As far as knick fans saying they were high on and wanted Donovan Mitchell...where's that "Come on Son" gif. The vast vast vast majority of people whondidnt want Frank wanted either DSJ or Malik Monk. Very very very few (maybe 2 at best on this board) wanted Mitchell. Even as a Louisville fan I wasn't sure about Mitchell and wanted DSJr instead...to be honest.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

[DOT]

I'm not disagreeing. Just saying that the Knicks weren't the only team that missed. Drafting is not as easy as some fans think. Also you can just flip back to the draft threads and you'll realize most fans aren't any better at predicting the studs from the duds than the GMs they ridicule. A vast majority of fans on this board wanted Frank and the rational that many gave was comical. As far as knick fans saying they were high on Donovan Mitchel...where's that "Come on son" gif. The vast vast vast majority of people whondidnt want Frank wanted either DSJ or Malik Monk.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

I recall it being split pretty evenly between Frank and DSJ, with Monk being the most popular 3rd option (but being pretty completely dwarfed by both Frank and DSJ supporters), and Mitchell being a real fringe guy that only a few of people wanted, and even then, he was the 2nd option for most of them behind one of Frank, DSJ, or Monk. I think only like 2 or 3 guys at the time wanted Mitchell above anyone else available at 8

The last few draft threads, from about a week before draft night with polls:

Spoiler:

48 Frank, 40 DSJ, 22 Monk, 5 Kennard, 4 Mitchell

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1577549

59 DSJ, 40 Frank, 17 Monk, 7 Mitchell

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1578836

42 DSJ, 33 Frank, 15 Monk, 7 Mitchell

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1579610

37 DSJ, 33 Frank, 16 Monk, 5 Mitchell

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1580690

Finally, the night of: 46 DSJ, 46 Frank, 15 Monk, 2 Mitchell (2 Kennard)

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1581419

So at the end, it was a dead split between Frank and DSJ, with Monk coming in a distant 3rd, and Mitchell having less than 2% support (same number of people wanted Luke Kennard), with his peak being around 7%

Also, I believe the consensus at the time was, if we had picked DSJ, Dallas would've picked Frank right after. I do wonder how that turns out, had we drafted DSJ and kept him, cause he did show a lot of potential early on, and how that would've affected a potential KP trade since he was (allegedly) the primary asset we wanted back for KP

[TwitterFingers]

If we didn't draft Frank, we would've taken DSJ or Malik Monk

Mitchell was high on our radar, but Phil Jackson ultimately decided Frank was a better fit for the triangle

This.

Not only were the Knicks high on Mitchell, they were also blown away in their workout with Bam. I have no clue what phil Jackson saw in Frank that made him think he was a better fit than either of the those guy, or other guys drafted behind Frank. Just a horrendous pick. And after that the Knox pick was equally as bad. Those two drafts will forever live in infamy for us.

[Iron Mantis]

Donavon Mitchell
Rj Barrett
Michae Porter Jr
Juluis Randle
Mitchell Robinson

6th Man
Tyrese Hali

Obviously our roster will prob look different but I can still dream lol

It's actually funny that if you talk about those 2 guys it's almost like repeating Scott Layden and Isiah Thomas all over again. Frank would have been the perfect Scott Layden pick (all substance no talent) and Knox the perfect Isiah Thomas pick (all talent no substance).

But I digress. As far as the Knicks picking Donovan Mitchell?

It's funny that vast majority of this board wanted Frank cause of his supposed higher potential as a true point guard. Not being a true point guard was something that a lot of folks had against Mitchell. And to be honest, as a big Louisville fan Mitchell's ability to run an NBA offense was definitely a concern for me as well. So would they have picked him instead? Yeah I don't know about that. The reality is that Mitchell turned out to be one of those rare players who does better in the NBA than he did in college. Hard to predict.

In all likelihood and based on reports the Knicks front office other than Phil Jackson was leaning towards Dennis Smith Jr so I seriously doubt they would have drafted Mitchell (or Bam or any of the other few hindsight guys). Malik Monk was the only other name that really got brought up in the rumor mill. And none of those 3 likely guys have done anything.

Now as far as Knox and 2018?

Sure SGA should have been the guy in hindsight but honestly his name wasn't really mentioned much at all in Knick rumor circles. The Knicks had just drafted their "PG of the future" (lol...see previous section) and the notion was that they were looking at Mikal Bridges as the most likely target up until the 11th hour when they went with Knox on account of his shooting potential and upside...and...well...the rumored Kentucky connection that had been attached to the Knicks well before the latest front office took control.

If it wasn't Knox it likely would have been Mikal Bridges. Better than Knox? For sure. But a foundation player? Not really.

What the above shows isn't so much that the Knicks can't draft, it's that even a lottery pick is a highly risky asset. The Knicks weren't the only team that passed on Mitchell. You can argue that 11 or 12 other teams also made that same mistake. SGA in 2018? 7 or 8 teams made the same mistake including at least 5 teams that picked before the Knicks did.

That's why if you get a chance at a sure thing (even if it costs more $ or assets to get) it may actually still make a lot more sense than rolling the lottery pick dice.

For a team that's been without guard talent since Marbury(J.Craw doesn't count), and top 10 in the lottery at least 5 times in the past decade, I am shocked the Knicks have not been obsessively scouting to draft and develop a dynamic guard.

Knicks motto: Moaaaaaarrrrr forwards.

[HarthorneWingo]

I don’t like playing this game. Woulda coulda shoulda.

[Capn'O]

If we didn't draft Frank, we would've taken DSJ or Malik Monk

Mitchell was high on our radar, but Phil Jackson ultimately decided Frank was a better fit for the triangle

Yeah, I do remember us being linked to DMitch so it's likely we make that move.

From there, it's hard to tell. If we have DMitch, we may not even be in position to draft Knox next draft. Maybe things are more sympatico and Melo and Porzingis end up staying. And even Phil

If we did end up in the 9 spot and everything else is equal, I think Miles Bridges was next on our list. Not bad. Not as good as SGA, Mikal, or MPJ. I wanted SGA or Mikal. Can't always get what you want.

[dc]

Mitchell is basically a small SG that can be a playmaker in many instances.

But at then end of the day, he's a small guard. That's a strike against him in Phil Jackson's book. Phil preferred big guards. He thought of smaller guards as role players (Kerr, Paxson, Fisher).

Even at Louisville Mitchell showed flashes of NBA team running. The shorter shot clock, space and reliance on pick and roll means the athletic scorer will flourish as a pg in the league. Westbrook, Mitchell, SGA ... these types make the leap out of college.

Yeah, but point is Phil liked his lead guards big. He always saw the smaller guys (Fisher/Kerr/Paxson) as off the ball role players who weren't going to dominate the ball as much.

He always liked big backcourts period, with guys like Ron Harper, Smush Parker and Sasha Vujačić (and Lakers were high on Javaris Crittenton) as backcourt partners to his star guard. It wasn't hard to see him taking a like to a guy like Frank.

[TwitterFingers]

If we didn't draft Frank, we would've taken DSJ or Malik Monk

Mitchell was high on our radar, but Phil Jackson ultimately decided Frank was a better fit for the triangle

Yeah, I do remember us being linked to DMitch so it's likely we make that move.

From there, it's hard to tell. If we have DMitch, we may not even be in position to draft Knox next draft. Maybe things are more sympatico and Melo and Porzingis end up staying. And even Phil

If we did end up in the 9 spot and everything else is equal, I think Miles Bridges was next on our list. Not bad. Not as good as SGA, Mikal, or MPJ. I wanted SGA or Mikal. Can't always get what you want.

Yeah if we had to speculate regarding the butterfly effect Porzinigs probably stays and Phil I would bet wouldn’t get fired.

Knox was a weird pick to me. I have no idea who we would have drafted if not Knox, but SGA was his teammate in Kentucky, and was much better than Knox at Kentucky. To me watching Kentucky and thinking Knox was better is inexplicable. Not saying I’m a pro scout, but it really didn’t take much to see SGA was a lot better.

[moocow007]

I'm not disagreeing. Just saying that the Knicks weren't the only team that missed. Drafting is not as easy as some fans think. Also you can just flip back to the draft threads and you'll realize most fans aren't any better at predicting the studs from the duds than the GMs they ridicule. A vast majority of fans on this board wanted Frank and the rational that many gave was comical. As far as knick fans saying they were high on Donovan Mitchel...where's that "Come on son" gif. The vast vast vast majority of people whondidnt want Frank wanted either DSJ or Malik Monk.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

I recall it being split pretty evenly between Frank and DSJ, with Monk being the most popular 3rd option (but being pretty completely dwarfed by both Frank and DSJ supporters), and Mitchell being a real fringe guy that only a few of people wanted, and even then, he was the 2nd option for most of them behind one of Frank, DSJ, or Monk. I think only like 2 or 3 guys at the time wanted Mitchell above anyone else available at 8

The last few draft threads, from about a week before draft night with polls:

Spoiler:

48 Frank, 40 DSJ, 22 Monk, 5 Kennard, 4 Mitchell

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1577549

59 DSJ, 40 Frank, 17 Monk, 7 Mitchell

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1578836

42 DSJ, 33 Frank, 15 Monk, 7 Mitchell

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1579610

37 DSJ, 33 Frank, 16 Monk, 5 Mitchell

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1580690

Finally, the night of: 46 DSJ, 46 Frank, 15 Monk, 2 Mitchell (2 Kennard)

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1581419

So at the end, it was a dead split between Frank and DSJ, with Monk coming in a distant 3rd, and Mitchell having less than 2% support (same number of people wanted Luke Kennard), with his peak being around 7%

Also, I believe the consensus at the time was, if we had picked DSJ, Dallas would've picked Frank right after. I do wonder how that turns out, had we drafted DSJ and kept him, cause he did show a lot of potential early on, and how that would've affected a potential KP trade since he was (allegedly) the primary asset we wanted back for KP

Yep that's how I remember it with the final breakdown.

It's hard to say what the KP trade would have turned out since IMO the Knicks got short changed on the trade (how Porzingis turned out really doesn't factor in since at the time of the trade it was clear that instead of having dreams of sugar plum fairies dancing in their heads it was Porzingis and Doncic doing the dancing).

[moocow007]

Mitchell is basically a small SG that can be a playmaker in many instances.

But at then end of the day, he's a small guard. That's a strike against him in Phil Jackson's book. Phil preferred big guards. He thought of smaller guards as role players (Kerr, Paxson, Fisher).

Even at Louisville Mitchell showed flashes of NBA team running. The shorter shot clock, space and reliance on pick and roll means the athletic scorer will flourish as a pg in the league. Westbrook, Mitchell, SGA ... these types make the leap out of college.

Yeah, but point is Phil liked his lead guards big. He always saw the smaller guys (Fisher/Kerr/Paxson) as off the ball role players who weren't going to dominate the ball as much.

He always liked big backcourts period, with guys like Ron Harper, Smush Parker and Sasha Vujačić (and Lakers were high on Javaris Crittenton) as backcourt partners to his star guard. It wasn't hard to see him taking a like to a guy like Frank.

Problem is that Phil's lead guards were Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant for the bulk of his 2 coaching stints. With those guys you can have Elfrid Payton and be fine.