Is it time to blow it up and start collecting ping pong balls?

[seren]

It obviously won’t happen but no question this is the year to tank. No difference maker FAs, no obvious star candidates to trade for, nobody on the roster that has the potential to take a giant step forward to be the guy. Only option is to hit the lottery and hope to get lucky

[HarthorneWingo]

And we haven't. That's the issue

We tanked at least two times. We got KP and RJ. It did not change anything.

To properly build a team by tanking we have to:
1) build a really bad team to torture the fans;
2) get lucky with Ping Pong balls;
3) do it the right draft when franchise players are available;
4) get the right prospect;
5) develop him into a winning player
6) make the right moves to get him proper help.

Its not so simple.

tanking is just one part of the entire process - high picks are no guarantee; still need pinpoint evaluation to make the most out of it

they pick junk they get junk

We found John Starks bagging groceries and Anthony Mason from old D league or Europe, I don't recall right now, but you get the point. Where would the Knicks have been without those two players on the roster?

As for tanking, I don't think we every really tanked. If someone thinks otherwise, then name us that year. Maybe the 17 win season but, if I recall correctly, that was more out of circumstances. I believe Melo was out with knee surgery that season.

[robillionaire]

it would take Brunson to get injured to get deep in the lottery and probably Randle too for top 6 odds and even then the lottery would F us

[TheDavinciCHODE]

Here's what people don't seem to understand in general about the NBA.

It's not about "tanking". I don't think it's good for a team/the league to do an outright Philly/Morey style tank and mock the sport of the basketball.

The idea should be to prioritize minutes to players that are the future of your franchise, reduce salaries, and improve future flexibillity when it's clear that you aren't on an upward trajectory.

Basically, what I mean is that young players need minutes to develop and young players usually result in losing games, and that is totally fine.

So the Knicks, since it's clear we aren't a legit playoff team, should be prioritizing the development or showcasing of our young players, seeing who is worth investing in and who isn't, and also reducing team salary to improve flexibility.

That will usually result in a worse record.

That's probably unrelated to your question, I just needed to rant.

------

But yes, it's probably time to collect ping pong balls. We aren't even good enough to be a guaranteed play-in team. We're on pace to win 37 games and that's with 3 wins against the worst team in the league.

We have 10 wins but we're really a 7-8 win team according to net rating/schedule wins.

It's fine winning 35 games IF you're on the upward trajectory and you're winning 35 games because your young future cornerstones are leading the way. But if we win 35 games with Julius Randle leading the team in minutes/USG it seems like a waste to me.

I'd rather we just win 30 games with Randle and Rose gone. Randle is productive enough that he's just going to will us to a handful wins some nights and good enough overall to make us a 20-23 ranked offense. Which is garbage still, but still not atrocious.

-------

However, with Brunson/Grimes/Mitch/Quickly/Sims we're probably going to be competitive enough on both sides of the ball to be a step above the bad teams, so not sure exactly how we'd even tank.

Like, pretend it's the beginning of the season without Randle, Fournier, or Rose...

Brunson
RJ
Grimes
Obi
Mitch

Quickly/Hart/Sims/random bench rotation guy

That team is probably good enough to still win about 33-35 games, so we'd basically be in the same position we are now.

anyways, we know this franchise isn't going to tank to get more ping pong balls, especially not this early. If it gets to the last 10-15 games and it's clear there's no hope, I wouldn't be surprised to see Brunson mysteriously get injured and Randle get shut down - if he's even still here.

ID I'm ranting. Either way, we're going to end up with like 37 wins and the 9th pick, and that's I guess not the worst thing in the world.

We have:

Brunson
Grimes
Quickly
Mitch

those 4 are surefire rotation guys on a good team and with another perimeter star we'd be a legit playoff team imo. And if we get that other perimter star, then maybe RJ is better off as the 3rd perimter option or even the sixth man and we get more value out of hime.

I really think that if we get a defense 4 like Jerami Grant, Aaron Gordon (idk if he's even good but he's got the right athletic profile for it), or siakam then we could be an elite defense. offense is another story though.

Man, I'd love to see...

Brunson
Quickly
Grimes
Siakam
Mitch

that'd be a sweet team. Not gonna happen though :/

[HarthorneWingo]

Here's what people don't seem to understand in general about the NBA.

It's not about "tanking". I don't think it's good for a team/the league to do an outright Philly/Morey style tank and mock the sport of the basketball.

The idea should be to prioritize minutes to players that are the future of your franchise, reduce salaries, and improve future flexibillity when it's clear that you aren't on an upward trajectory.

Basically, what I mean is that young players need minutes to develop and young players usually result in losing games, and that is totally fine.

So the Knicks, since it's clear we aren't a legit playoff team, should be prioritizing the development or showcasing of our young players, seeing who is worth investing in and who isn't, and also reducing team salary to improve flexibility.

That will usually result in a worse record.

That's probably unrelated to your question, I just needed to rant.

------

But yes, it's probably time to collect ping pong balls. We aren't even good enough to be a guaranteed play-in team. We're on pace to win 37 games and that's with 3 wins against the worst team in the league.

We have 10 wins but we're really a 7-8 win team according to net rating/schedule wins.

It's fine winning 35 games IF you're on the upward trajectory and you're winning 35 games because your young future cornerstones are leading the way. But if we win 35 games with Julius Randle leading the team in minutes/USG it seems like a waste to me.

I'd rather we just win 30 games with Randle and Rose gone. Randle is productive enough that he's just going to will us to a handful wins some nights and good enough overall to make us a 20-23 ranked offense. Which is garbage still, but still not atrocious.

-------

However, with Brunson/Grimes/Mitch/Quickly/Sims we're probably going to be competitive enough on both sides of the ball to be a step above the bad teams, so not sure exactly how we'd even tank.

Like, pretend it's the beginning of the season without Randle, Fournier, or Rose...

Brunson
RJ
Grimes
Obi
Mitch

Quickly/Hart/Sims/random bench rotation guy

That team is probably good enough to still win about 33-35 games, so we'd basically be in the same position we are now.

anyways, we know this franchise isn't going to tank to get more ping pong balls, especially not this early. If it gets to the last 10-15 games and it's clear there's no hope, I wouldn't be surprised to see Brunson mysteriously get injured and Randle get shut down - if he's even still here.

ID I'm ranting. Either way, we're going to end up with like 37 wins and the 9th pick, and that's I guess not the worst thing in the world.

We have:

Brunson
Grimes
Quickly
Mitch

those 4 are surefire rotation guys on a good team and with another perimeter star we'd be a legit playoff team imo. And if we get that other perimter star, then maybe RJ is better off as the 3rd perimter option or even the sixth man and we get more value out of hime.

I really think that if we get a defense 4 like Jerami Grant, Aaron Gordon (idk if he's even good but he's got the right athletic profile for it), or siakam then we could be an elite defense. offense is another story though.

Man, I'd love to see...

Brunson
Quickly
Grimes
Siakam
Mitch

that'd be a sweet team. Not gonna happen though :/

I agree with your logic but in order for this to happen, Dolan has to admit, yet again, that his handpicked people in the front office need to be shown the door. Does he have this kind of self-awareness? Is he willing to admit to the fans that we're going to have to take a couple steps back before we can move forward? I dunno about that, especially if the team is hovering around .500.

[DrCoach]

We have 3 first rd picks in a deep draft.

We need to replace them with Randle’ Fournier and Rose

[Richard4444]

Here's what people don't seem to understand in general about the NBA.

It's not about "tanking". I don't think it's good for a team/the league to do an outright Philly/Morey style tank and mock the sport of the basketball.

The idea should be to prioritize minutes to players that are the future of your franchise, reduce salaries, and improve future flexibillity when it's clear that you aren't on an upward trajectory.

Basically, what I mean is that young players need minutes to develop and young players usually result in losing games, and that is totally fine.

So the Knicks, since it's clear we aren't a legit playoff team, should be prioritizing the development or showcasing of our young players, seeing who is worth investing in and who isn't, and also reducing team salary to improve flexibility.

That will usually result in a worse record.

That's probably unrelated to your question, I just needed to rant.

------

But yes, it's probably time to collect ping pong balls. We aren't even good enough to be a guaranteed play-in team. We're on pace to win 37 games and that's with 3 wins against the worst team in the league.

We have 10 wins but we're really a 7-8 win team according to net rating/schedule wins.

It's fine winning 35 games IF you're on the upward trajectory and you're winning 35 games because your young future cornerstones are leading the way. But if we win 35 games with Julius Randle leading the team in minutes/USG it seems like a waste to me.

I'd rather we just win 30 games with Randle and Rose gone. Randle is productive enough that he's just going to will us to a handful wins some nights and good enough overall to make us a 20-23 ranked offense. Which is garbage still, but still not atrocious.

-------

However, with Brunson/Grimes/Mitch/Quickly/Sims we're probably going to be competitive enough on both sides of the ball to be a step above the bad teams, so not sure exactly how we'd even tank.

Like, pretend it's the beginning of the season without Randle, Fournier, or Rose...

Brunson
RJ
Grimes
Obi
Mitch

Quickly/Hart/Sims/random bench rotation guy

That team is probably good enough to still win about 33-35 games, so we'd basically be in the same position we are now.

anyways, we know this franchise isn't going to tank to get more ping pong balls, especially not this early. If it gets to the last 10-15 games and it's clear there's no hope, I wouldn't be surprised to see Brunson mysteriously get injured and Randle get shut down - if he's even still here.

ID I'm ranting. Either way, we're going to end up with like 37 wins and the 9th pick, and that's I guess not the worst thing in the world.

We have:

Brunson
Grimes
Quickly
Mitch

those 4 are surefire rotation guys on a good team and with another perimeter star we'd be a legit playoff team imo. And if we get that other perimter star, then maybe RJ is better off as the 3rd perimter option or even the sixth man and we get more value out of hime.

I really think that if we get a defense 4 like Jerami Grant, Aaron Gordon (idk if he's even good but he's got the right athletic profile for it), or siakam then we could be an elite defense. offense is another story though.

Man, I'd love to see...

Brunson
Quickly
Grimes
Siakam
Mitch

that'd be a sweet team. Not gonna happen though :/

You want to play the kids with the thought to build a team for the future. You are not thinking about lottery odds or the current winning record. And you are saying the FO is doing all wrong.

I do not agree with your viewpoint. Because I do not think that snubbed players are clear building blocks for our future.

1) Cam and Grimes are getting all minutes they can grab when both are 100% healthy.

2) Randle is still 28 years old. Despite not being my dream player, he is a former all-star in his prime and he can be at least a workable PF until we find a better one. He got better this season playing with a healthy Brunson. You can not discard him as a player for our future.

3) IQ is a short and inefficient wing that wants to get paid. He is shooting worse than RJ and Randle this season. He is not a sure piece for our future. We can find better fits, more experienced players, or high-ceiling prospects for his position pretty easily. He is costing us a rotation spot. Besides, he is playing 22 minutes a game this season. He could play more if his shooting was on.

4) It's hard to make up my mind about Toppin. I was pretty high on him at the end of the last season and the first few games this season. But he is horrible these past games. He can not shoot, can not attack. And we all know he is struggling in the defensive end and in half-court games especially playing against great defenders who do not him to get in the paint. I am not sure he is a future starting NBA player.

[Spree2Houston]

Some of us said this back in 2020. But folks got “tired of losing” and got seduced from making the playoffs. They didn’t want to tank. Now 2 years later, this is the end product of it.

[Luv those Knicks]

Yah but he sold the hope pretty damn well. We had the Francis and Marbury support threads, the Formidable Eddy and Zach era, Eddy Curry > Dwight Howard threads, etc. Hell, I think I supported Balkman really hard.

Isiah tried, he arguably tried too hard and gave up too much and spent too much, and he picked the wrong players, though he hit some nice draft picks. Leon has done that too and I wonder if that's actually the GMs or the scouting department though it doesn't matter a whole lot.

Yes it was fun when Isiah added a player, but the results were awful. My problem is that I can really just see it with hindsight now and in hindsight, Isiah looks terrible. I remember being pretty disappointed at the time as well.

Did Isiah sell it . . . maybe, while Leon is asking fans to trust him, but to me, I think Leon's approach is better. Donovan Mitchell will remain a question mark, especially if RJ was the centerpiece and RJ never learns to be efficient, but that was a tough call. I'm not going to trash Leon over not wanting to overpay - something we've done in the past a little too often.

[WargamesX]

Yeah we could tank for a star but Dolan wants to raise ticket prices......

[Jimmit79]

it would take Brunson to get injured to get deep in the lottery and probably Randle too for top 6 odds and even then the lottery would F us

Just give RJ 50 shots per game then Knicks will lose every game hell fans might start booing again also win win.

[Jalen Bluntson]

We tanked at least two times. We got KP and RJ. It did not change anything.

To properly build a team by tanking we have to:
1) build a really bad team to torture the fans;
2) get lucky with Ping Pong balls;
3) do it the right draft when franchise players are available;
4) get the right prospect;
5) develop him into a winning player
6) make the right moves to get him proper help.

Its not so simple.

KP was not a tank.

We tanked. We did exactly what the OP is suggesting. After Melo got hurt, we got rid of JR Smith, Shumpert, Prigioni, and Stat.

It is like losing Brunson for the season and then we get rid of, Randle, Evan, IQ, and Rose to enhance our tanking. The difference is that I think our roster is deeper right now with better young players that would give a lot of unwanted wins.

They sucked. They lost a lot. They had injuries. That wasn't the intention though. Then they tried to win again the following year. They don't have the top of the draft as a priority. They never focus on the draft for anything.

A tank is multiple years. Not half seasons. They traded away the prize in the end. That's not how it works. You aim for targets at the top of the draft and you focus on developing young players until you find a star. That's my version. You don't draft once in the top 5 and move on because you drafted one player who didn't even prove to be a star. Multiple years is a tank. Not 2-3 months and then move on.

Had they stayed young after the RJ draft and added another 1-2 top 5 or so picks, that would be a "tank". They said they were going to do so. Then a month later went competitive rebuild and then fired that POBO/HC. That's because they aren't allowed to tank/build through the top of the draft. If they end up there accidentally it isn't the plan.

[iLLmatic860]

lets jus wait until 2032 free agency....maybe we will be in the Wemby sweepstakes

[Richard4444]

KP was not a tank.

We tanked. We did exactly what the OP is suggesting. After Melo got hurt, we got rid of JR Smith, Shumpert, Prigioni, and Stat.

It is like losing Brunson for the season and then we get rid of, Randle, Evan, IQ, and Rose to enhance our tanking. The difference is that I think our roster is deeper right now with better young players that would give a lot of unwanted wins.

They sucked. They lost a lot. They had injuries. That wasn't the intention though. Then they tried to win again the following year. They don't have the top of the draft as a priority. They never focus on the draft for anything.

A tank is multiple years. Not half seasons. They traded away the prize in the end. That's not how it works. You aim for targets at the top of the draft and you focus on developing young players until you find a star. That's my version. You don't draft once in the top 5 and move on because you drafted one player who didn't even prove to be a star. Multiple years is a tank. Not 2-3 months and then move on.

Had they stayed young after the RJ draft and added another 1-2 top 5 or so picks, that would be a "tank". They said they were going to do so. Then a month later went competitive rebuild and then fired that POBO/HC. That's because they aren't allowed to tank/build through the top of the draft. If they end up there accidentally it isn't the plan.

First, so you do not consider tanking when it is a "circumstantial tanking" like GSW did to get Wiseman, Portland did to get Sharpe and Toronto did to get Barnes.

Second, we prioritized trying to get stars in FA after getting RJ. We just could not try to get a star in that 2019 FA window. The better FA of all time. Then, after the failure, we had to use the cap space. Its difficult to think we could have done a different approach. Maybe getting better players in FA, but it would not be easy.

[whocares1]

It’s kind of silly to talk about tanking now. They were near the bottom for the last 10+ years and it would’ve been much easier to tank. Now they worked their way to the middle and the FO isn’t convincing Dolan that tearing it down is the right thing to do.

So at this point you kinda just have to watch the games and try to find some enjoyment out of it lol. Or pray that Leon gets fired.

[Jimmit79]

It’s kind of silly to talk about tanking now. They were near the bottom for the last 10+ years and it would’ve been much easier to tank. Now they worked their way to the middle and the FO isn’t convincing Dolan that tearing it down is the right thing to do.

So at this point you kinda just have to watch the games and try to find some enjoyment out of it lol. Or pray that Leon gets fired.

Dolan doesn't want to tank as bad as every FO has been anyone would have chosen tank route first if they were given the option.

[HarthorneWingo]

Yah but he sold the hope pretty damn well. We had the Francis and Marbury support threads, the Formidable Eddy and Zach era, Eddy Curry > Dwight Howard threads, etc. Hell, I think I supported Balkman really hard.

Isiah tried, he arguably tried too hard and gave up too much and spent too much, and he picked the wrong players, though he hit some nice draft picks. Leon has done that too and I wonder if that's actually the GMs or the scouting department though it doesn't matter a whole lot.

Yes it was fun when Isiah added a player, but the results were awful. My problem is that I can really just see it with hindsight now and in hindsight, Isiah looks terrible. I remember being pretty disappointed at the time as well.

Did Isiah sell it . . . maybe, while Leon is asking fans to trust him, but to me, I think Leon's approach is better. Donovan Mitchell will remain a question mark, especially if RJ was the centerpiece and RJ never learns to be efficient, but that was a tough call. I'm not going to trash Leon over not wanting to overpay - something we've done in the past a little too often.

I agree with you about Isiah. He did pretty well drafting players, as I recall. I always thought that the Knicks should have hired him as a draft consultant.

I don't think Leon does any of the grunt work when it comes to the draft as I believe that he relies on his subordinates for that. That's Aller and/or one of the other assistants that heads that up.

[RHODEY]

Step up from sucking, but barely

Knicks are only interesting in 2 year runs, before hope gives way to reality and acceptance. Then they just become boring.

Then the firings happen and the process repeats.

The New York Knickerbockers: The Cicadas of Suck

Big surprise you’re in this thread
They talking about pp balls

Too bad it's not anal beads!

I just reported you to the mods...tone it down buddy!

[RHODEY]

Hate to say it but Isiah Era was more exciting than this. Yes he mortgaged our future, but at least he was trying to make impact trades and excite the fanbase even though he was an idiot in the long-run haha.

Yes we have tons of picks and assets (actually do we?) now but where is that getting us?

I disagree with you there. Few eras in Knicks history were more frustrating than the Isiah era.

Isaiah era was bad but never boring. On and off the court it was a running soap opera. Scott "We like our guys" Layden was the worst.

[RHODEY]

Y'all are terrible fans and strategists. Blow up one of the youngest teams in the league to tank? For what reason? To get young players and blow it up again?

To pick up a generational player...