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The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here..

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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#41 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:13 am

Here's pretty much what it comes down to .... the fickle so-called "independents" who turn with the wind.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/01 ... ts-coakley

Sen. Scott Brown (R-Tea Party)
— By David Corn
Tue Jan. 19, 2010 6:25 PM PST

Sometimes a game change really is a game change.

Democrat Martha Coakley was a dud of a candidate in the contest for Ted Kennedy's Senate seat, but her lackluster performance doesn't diminish the impact—and implications—of Republican Scott Brown's upset (and upsetting, for Dems) victory in Massachusetts. "It feels like a cataclysmic event," says a Democratic pollster with expertise on Massachusetts politics and who asks not to be named because he doesn't want to be identified in any way with this disaster for his party. Tea Partiers are celebrating Brown's historic win as a cosmos-altering moment—the Kennedy crown has been wrenched away! Yet this shift in political tectonic plates may signal not so much the rise of the Tea Partiers, but the alienation of the independents—perhaps a more profound problem for President Barack Obama and the Democrats.

Massachusetts is not quite the liberal (or Democratic) bastion it is often caricatured to be. Indies reign supreme, accounting for more than half of the state's 2.1 million registered voters. Democrats outnumber Republicans three-to-one among residents who declare a party preference, while Republican governors ruled the roost in the state for sixteen straight years. But it's the indie vote that matters—in Massachusetts and Washington.

Perhaps the most agreed-upon rule of the road among politerati is that candidates win elections by courting the middle. In the last presidential election, Barack Obama bagged 89 percent of the Democratic voters and John McCain nabbed 90 percent of the Republican voters, but Obama bested McCain 52-44 percent among independents. Obama could have lost the indies by a few points and placed first in the popular vote, given that Democrats comprise a larger proportion of the electorate. But the strong independent swing toward Obama rendered his victory a decisive one.

Yet since Election Day 2008, indies have been drifting away from Obama. That makes sense. Independents may lean toward one party or the other, but they don't have strong roots in either one. They are less likely to feel a partisan or ideological bond with a president. Thus, they will be less inclined to cut their man slack or stand by him when the going gets tough—for the president may not really be their man. (Rabid opposition from the right doesn't motivate independents to rally around Obama.) And it's probably fair to assume that many independent voters backed Obama even though his politics were to the left of theirs. So with the unemployment rate remaining high, billions of dollars flowing to bailed-out banks, and the tussle over health care reform looking like an out-of-control mud-wrestling bout, it's no surprise that some swing voters would lose patience with Obama and his party—just as the obstructionist Republican/conservative opposition was intensifying.

In poll after poll this year, independents have expressed doubts about Obama's health care reform initiative. Enthusiasm for the project remained high among Democrats, but indies were not so keen. During the months-long, convoluted debate over this complex reform, these voters have been vulnerable to the most virulent GOP talking points: "death panels," "socialism," "big government." Moreover, by fixating on an inside-game strategy to pass health care legislation (negotiate with Baucus, win over Snowe, accept the Stupak amendment), Obama made the whole shebang difficult to comprehend. It's no shocker that voters who didn't feel invested in this process would be nervous or suspicious about the outcome. And voter worry can always be tapped or exploited. Even by a former Cosmo naked model. When the president appeared with Coakley at a Boston campaign rally on Sunday, he didn't once mention his health care reform legislation. He didn't declare, "Send Martha to Washington so she can vote for this bill." That was telling. (In the latest NBC/Wall Street Journal poll, only 33 percent say Obama's health care initiative is a good idea; 46 percent say it's a bad one.)

Brown's win in Massachusetts may mark—as the pundits were declaring before the votes were counted—the end of health care reform as we know it. The White House and the congressional Democrats could work out a strategy that saves the bill, with House Democrats holding their noses and voting for the version that passed the Senate, and Obama then signing the measure. That would certainly be a legislative accomplishment, but it would hardly come across as a defining political victory. And the debate over health care ("government takeover!" "usurpation of power!") will continue straight to the November congressional elections, as now-giddy GOPers make a full play to add skittish-on-Obama indies to their Obama-is-evil base.

Brown's acquisition of the Kennedy seat is undeniably a symbolic and significant win for Tea Partiers and the Republican Party, which managed to merge successfully during this episode (an alliance they failed to achieve during the special election in September for the House seat in upstate New York). But in this era of volatile politics and hyper-media cycles, it's merely one battle, not the war. "It's important to interpret this as a step in the process rather than an end result," says Kevin Madden, a Republican strategist, who was a senior adviser to Mitt Romney's 2008 presidential campaign. "As a party we still have work to do if we are to become a governing majority. The realignment with Main Street sentiments on issues like spending, the economy and national security has begun, and it's up to us to forge a voter coalition between conservatives and independents." He adds, "Obama and Democrats have driven independent voters into our hands. We have to work to keep them."

But the nature of indie voters is that they don't sit in anyone's hands for too long. They are never won—and never lost—forever.
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Post#42 » by closg00 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:33 pm

Brown will be a one-termer, just like Obama.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#43 » by knicks742 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:35 pm

Well, as I expected, this President has not been able to deliver any of the major promises he made. I told you guys this was not change we could believe in because he had no clue what he was getting into.
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Post#44 » by duetta » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:36 pm

The Democrats offer a weak narrative vis-a-vis the Republcans - and narrative, not reality, is what really sells with an under-educated, poorly-informed, often collectively-insane electorate.

IMHO, Obama was as guilty as anyone in this regard throughout this entire first year. He appeared sometimes weak (as when allowing Baucus to dither in negotiations with his band of six, a delay that can truly be described as responsible for killing momentum for health care reform) - and at other times aloof and professorial. And aloof and professorial does not sell in a nation where only 37% graduate from college.

The right wing has a brilliant media machine, beginning with FOX and the WSJ, extending to conservative talk radio, that never, ever lets up on the pushing of conservative narrative - even when the narrative is not only false, promoting utterly failed ideas as somehow never having been tested, but given the real-world crisis that America faces today, potentially traitorous.

This group doesn't care about America, only about the further accumulation of wealth by the elite that controls it, the promulgation of their insane ideology, and retaining their ultimate hold on power. They would brainwash their grandmother and children if it served their political, ideological, or economic interests. IMHO, these people can wrap themselves in the flag all they want, but their character is not that different from that of a Herman Goering. They do not put the interests of the nation or the species first - only the dubious interests of their sect.

But the real problem here is that Obama has refused to stand up and fight - both the corrupt within his own party, and then the right-wing. We are living in interesting times, and unless Barack figures that out, and begins acting accordingly, he is likely to be not only a one term President but also a spectacularly unsuccessful one.

You win in America, a country that acquires far too much of its culture, not from a careful study of history or philosophy or science, but instead from movies, television, music, and irrational religion (as opposed to the rational variety), by winning the battle of narrative. We are losing the battle of narrative - and if we lose this battle this time, America may well lose the entire war.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#45 » by knicks742 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:04 pm

duetta wrote:The Democrats offer a weak narrative vis-a-vis the Republcans - and narrative, not reality, is what really sells with an under-educated, poorly-informed, often collectively-insane electorate.

IMHO, Obama was as guilty as anyone in this regard throughout this entire first year. He appeared sometimes weak (as when allowing Baucus to dither in negotiations with his band of six, a delay that can truly be described as responsible for killing momentum for health care reform) - and at other times aloof and professorial. And aloof and professorial does not sell in a nation where only 37% graduate from college.

The right wing has a brilliant media machine, beginning with FOX and the WSJ, extending to conservative talk radio, that never, ever lets up on the pushing of conservative narrative - even when the narrative is not only false, promoting utterly failed ideas as somehow never having been tested, but given the real-world crisis that America faces today, potentially traitorous.

This group doesn't care about America, only about the further accumulation of wealth by the elite that controls it, the promulgation of their insane ideology, and retaining their ultimate hold on power. They would brainwash their grandmother and children if it served their political, ideological, or economic interests. IMHO, these people can wrap themselves in the flag all they want, but their character is not that different from that of a Herman Goering. They do not put the interests of the nation or the species first - only the dubious interests of their sect.

But the real problem here is that Obama has refused to stand up and fight - both the corrupt within his own party, and then the right-wing. We are living in interesting times, and unless Barack figures that out, and begins acting accordingly, he is likely to be not only a one term President but also a spectacularly unsuccessful one.

You win in America, a country that acquires far too much of its culture, not from a careful study of history or philosophy or science, but instead from movies, television, music, and irrational religion (as opposed to the rational variety), by winning the battle of narrative. We are losing the battle of narrative - and if we lose this battle this time, America may well lose the entire war.


Obama wasn't ready to be President. He just assumed all the Democrats would follow his lead because of how popular he was. He never expected they would be the ones that would stop him from succeeding. Sadly, the nation is going to pay for his inexperience and, not only that, but he will really kill the hope of many of the young people who bought his crap.
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Post#46 » by duetta » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:20 pm

knicks742 wrote:Obama wasn't ready to be President. He just assumed all the Democrats would follow his lead because of how popular he was. He never expected they would be the ones that would stop him from succeeding. Sadly, the nation is going to pay for his inexperience and, not only that, but he will really kill the hope of many of the young people who bought his crap.


Maybe - but who is truly ready to be President...except perhaps an experienced VP or maybe a heavily involved spouse, like Hillary...
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Post#47 » by knicks742 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:33 pm

duetta wrote:
knicks742 wrote:Obama wasn't ready to be President. He just assumed all the Democrats would follow his lead because of how popular he was. He never expected they would be the ones that would stop him from succeeding. Sadly, the nation is going to pay for his inexperience and, not only that, but he will really kill the hope of many of the young people who bought his crap.


Maybe - but who is truly ready to be President...except perhaps an experienced VP or maybe a heavily involved spouse, like Hillary...


This is why I was a big Hillary supporter. She went through this healthcare fight already and there is value in having lived in that White House and knowing what the tension and pressure is like. I know from my own life experience that you can learn a lot just by being around situations if you are a smart and obervant individual like most people say she is, even if you are not the one making the decisions or whatever.

But, his presidency isn't over yet, let's see how quickly he learns.
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Post#48 » by duetta » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:52 pm

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Post#49 » by richardhutnik » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:39 pm

closg00 wrote:Brown will be a one-termer, just like Obama.


Palin 2012?

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Post#50 » by BasicBall » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:02 pm

knicks742 wrote:Well, as I expected, this President has not been able to deliver any of the major promises he made. I told you guys this was not change we could believe in because he had no clue what he was getting into.


He sure didnt know because it was a mess when he got into it......If you think this would have been any different IF Hillary had won you are as mistaken as you claim the Obama backers were. All Hillary would have done is polarize the country even more. Perhaps you need to focus more on what is not being said than what is being said. An intelligent person like yourself has to know that politicians promise alot and seldom deliver, but alot of the perception of American has changed for the better. I knew from the beginning that the biggest obstacle to this President would be THIS COUNTRY! We spend more time worrying about a late show spat, where one guy will get 40 million to walk away then how we can make healthcare a bit more affordable for everyone is nothing short of amazing.

Healthcare is still needed, but the haves will always scream louder than the have-nots. I'm simply discussing one issue and that is healthcare. It's amazing how we all can agree something needs to be done and should be done but no one has the courage of their convictions to do it. Amazing!

The Dems did themselves in, because at their core they are as corrupt and hypocritical as their GOP counterparts. But in politics as is life, its a marathon not sprint. So we will see, we will see.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#51 » by BasicBall » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:07 pm

knicks742 wrote:Well, as I expected, this President has not been able to deliver any of the major promises he made. I told you guys this was not change we could believe in because he had no clue what he was getting into.


This is the dumbest post I have ever seen! Who is ready to be President?
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Post#52 » by knicks742 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:17 pm

BasicBall wrote:
knicks742 wrote:Well, as I expected, this President has not been able to deliver any of the major promises he made. I told you guys this was not change we could believe in because he had no clue what he was getting into.


This is the dumbest post I have ever seen! Who is ready to be President?


You need some experience before getting a promotion. As bright as one may be, it's difficult to just get a new role and expect to be able to figure it all out in like 3 months. Didn't he want healthcare by July at first? Based on that request alone, it was clear to anyone that he had no clue how the process was going to work out and what he would have to do to get this done. Who didn't know that congressional democrats would be his biggest obstacle? Apparently he didn't. He let them figure things out and this is what happens.

He is now probably realizing what he needs to do but it may be too late. Congressional democrats are now in survival mode and there is no Obama magic they can ride off to wins like last election. They will pass something, of that I am sure, but it won't be the massive package he was hoping for.
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Post#53 » by Pedro Pistolas » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:15 pm

Get those damn troops outta Iraq already!
Why are they still there? thousands of innocent Iraqis have perished and no end seems to be coming. Unbelievable, there's freaking genocide happening in Burma yet the U.S. bats a eye to it. There's still gullible Americans that believe everything that's on CNN and fox news. Talking about terrorists and al queda? psh , those organizations i bet don't even freaking exist.
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Post#54 » by mugzi » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:48 pm

Its always funny how Dicky follows up on my posts in his own snarky way. Its good to see your staying busy there, lol.

This was an indictment of the liberal agenda, a notorious liberal state electing a conservative in the face of a debacle of a bill, isn't only a victory for a political party, but its a victory for constituents who don't want that craptastic bill shoved down their throats.

Quite a victory, and this and NJ, VA voting out the left is only the beginning, as I said before the balance of power is always fragile and tends to swing back to a happy medium when one party and their agenda get out of hand.

So I'll end my gloating for now, and wait with bated breath as Dick Hutnik thinks up another brilliant retort. :lol:

Oh and Wingo, no hard feelings man, Im sure your party will do something underhanded like vote on the senate bill in the house then send it directly to the president to avoid the filibuster. I would expect nothing less from them. :D
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Post#55 » by richardhutnik » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:35 pm

Pages of posts here Mugzi and you weren't around. It was actually pleasant. But, here we go. Some news for you to gloat over and blam, you are here. Why would you NOT expect a snarky answer?

As for Mass. they already have a program like the senate bill, so they don't care about the Federal government.

And here is my post (do expect perpetual filabustering now):
In other news, Mugzi has time to gloat about politics on basketball forum. Good to look forward to perpetual filabustering in the name of causing Obama to get voted out of office. This is so awesome. Maybe if he is moderate, the Conservative Party in Mass. can end up running against him, and cause him to not get reelected.

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Post#56 » by mugzi » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:00 pm

Your dam right I'll gloat, as is my right. This is not only a victory for Mass but also a victory for the American public.

:lol:
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Post#57 » by seren » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:52 pm

I think MA people did the right thing. The democratic candidate could not be clearer. She basically said "FU, this is a special election, anyways I won't probably be there in two years and I don't give a damn". They got the message and did the right thing. Besides they don't care about the health care. They already have theirs.

And I think there are quite a lot of so-called "centrist" democrat senators out there who are thrilled by the outcome. They did not care about the health care bill, they have too many contributors from health care industry. This gives them an excuse not to support it.

And drug industry should be quite excited as we have seen the stock market surge. They pledged 80 billion in next ten years, then they jacked up the prices by 12% this year in the anticipation of that "pledge". Now they don't have to give a cent and keep the profits.

Common folks are the biggest losers here. We thought things can change. We should know better. This is politics my friend. Nothing will get done when the big money controls everything.

Look at our beloved "liberal" "progressive" president: Nothing happened in Iraq, we started another war in Afghanistan, we bailed out the Wall Street, drug companies surged their profits, and no one will touch the insurance industry anymore. All on his watch. I wouldn't be surprised if we soon "drill baby drill".
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Post#58 » by richardhutnik » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:10 am

seren wrote:Look at our beloved "liberal" "progressive" president: Nothing happened in Iraq, we started another war in Afghanistan, we bailed out the Wall Street, drug companies surged their profits, and no one will touch the insurance industry anymore. All on his watch. I wouldn't be surprised if we soon "drill baby drill".


If all this is true, why doesn't Mugzi like Obama? One would think the likes of Rush and Hannity also would be saying Obama is awesome.

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Post#59 » by seren » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:23 pm

richardhutnik wrote:
seren wrote:Look at our beloved "liberal" "progressive" president: Nothing happened in Iraq, we started another war in Afghanistan, we bailed out the Wall Street, drug companies surged their profits, and no one will touch the insurance industry anymore. All on his watch. I wouldn't be surprised if we soon "drill baby drill".


If all this is true, why doesn't Mugzi like Obama? One would think the likes of Rush and Hannity also would be saying Obama is awesome.

- Rich


Eh, republicans don't have social agendas. They care more about who is in power. Medicare drug benefits that cost billions of dollars with no money to back it up? Bring it on. Spending is great as long as it is Republican in power. That is why you don't hear filibusters when you have a Republican president.
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Post#60 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:19 pm

Well, let's all thank the Suuupreme Court for its latest ruling. Say goodbye to whatever is left of this democracy which will now be turned over to corporations. If you in anything but the highest of the highest economic bracket, your fcked.

EDIT: ... and talk about "judicial activism"? This is another example of the fact that its the republican appointees who are the true judicial activists and not the democrats. But, hey, let's face it, republican are simply better scheming liars than dems.

EDIT #2: ... Original Intent. This is another republican "fiction." All these conservatives on the Suupreme Court claim to be original intent jurists. In other words, they look to what the framers of the Constitution had contemplated at the time it was framed as opposed to viewing it as a "living, breathing document" that would change with the times. The argument in support of the later is in the fact that the framers wrote the language in broad concepts as opposed to specific instances.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/us/po ... us.html?hp

Justices Overturn Key Campaign Limits
By ADAM LIPTAK
Published: January 21, 2010

WASHINGTON — Sweeping aside a century-old understanding and overruling two important precedents, a bitterly divided Supreme Court on Thursday ruled that the government may not ban political spending by corporations in candidate elections.

The ruling was a vindication, the majority said, of the First Amendment’s most basic free speech principle — that the government has no business regulating political speech. The dissenters said allowing corporate money to flood the political marketplace will corrupt democracy.

The 5-to-4 decision was a doctrinal earthquake but also a political and practical one. Specialists in campaign finance law said they expected the decision, which also applies to labor unions and other organizations, to reshape the way elections are conducted.

“If the First Amendment has any force,” Justice Anthony M. Kennedy wrote for the majority, which included the four members of its conservative wing, “it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech.”

Justice John Paul Stevens read a long dissent from the bench. He said the majority had committed a grave error in treating corporate speech the same as that of human beings. His decision was joined by the other three members of the court’s liberal wing.

Senator Russ Feingold of Wisconsin, an author of the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law, called the ruling “a terrible mistake.”

“Ignoring important principles of judicial restraint and respect for precedent, the Court has given corporate money a breathtaking new role in federal campaigns,” said Mr. Feingold, a Democrat.

Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican leader and a longtime opponent of that law, praised the Court’s decision as “an important step in the direction of restoring the First Amendment rights of these groups by ruling that the Constitution protects their right to express themselves about political candidates and issues up until Election Day.” The case had unlikely origins. It involved a documentary called “Hillary: The Movie,” a 90-minute stew of caustic political commentary and advocacy journalism. It was produced by Citizens United, a conservative nonprofit corporation, and was released during the Democratic presidential primaries in 2008.

Citizens United lost a suit that year against the Federal Election Commission, and scuttled plans to show the film on a cable video-on-demand service and to broadcast television advertisements for it. But the film was shown in theaters in six cities, and it remains available on DVD and the Internet.

The lower court said the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002, usually called the McCain-Feingold law, prohibited the planned broadcasts. The law bans the broadcast, cable or satellite transmission of “electioneering communications” paid for by corporations in the 30 days before a presidential primary and in the 60 days before the general election. That leaves out old technologies, like newspapers, and new ones, like YouTube.

The law, as narrowed by a 2007 Supreme Court decision, applies to communications “susceptible to no reasonable interpretation other than as an appeal to vote for or against a specific candidate.” It also requires spoken and written disclaimers in the film and advertisements for it, along with the disclosure of contributors’ names.

The lower court said the film was a prohibited electioneering communication with one purpose: “to inform the electorate that Senator Clinton is unfit for office, that the United States would be a dangerous place in a President Hillary Clinton world and that viewers should vote against her.”

The McCain-Feingold law does contain an exception for broadcast news reports, commentaries and editorials.

On its central point, Justice Kennedy’s majority opinion was joined by Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and Justices Antonin Scalia, Samuel A. Alito Jr., and Clarence Thomas. Justice Stevens’s dissent was joined by Justices Stephen G. Breyer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Sonia Sotomayor.

When the case was first argued last March, it seemed a curiosity likely to be decided on narrow grounds. The court could have ruled that Citizens United was not the sort of group to which the McCain-Feingold law was meant to apply, or that the law did not mean to address 90-minute documentaries, or that video-on-demand technologies were not regulated by the law. Thursday’s decision rejected those alternatives.

Instead of deciding the case in June, the court set down the case for a rare re-argument in September. It now asked the parties to address the much more consequential question of whether the court should overrule a 1990 decision, Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce, which upheld restrictions on corporate spending to support or oppose political candidates, along with part of McConnell v. Federal Election Commission, the 2003 decision that upheld the central provisions of the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law.

On Thursday, the court answered its own questions with a resounding yes.

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